Alignments in Waltz

[Chris Stratton]

I ran into an interesting puzzle while trying to tune up some simple waltz the other day. Starting diag wall after a prep step:

Natural spin turn, 456 reverse, into 1-6 reverse (or substitue a double reverse spin)

My gut feeling is that the full reverse turn would commence facing DC, just as if you did a fully symmetric basic progression with closed changes. But that leaves an interesting question about the alignment and amount of turn of the 456 reverse.

If it's to be 3/8 of a turn ending DC, then it needs to commence backing center. That feels like an odd direction in which to exit the spin turn.

What I've tended to do is exit the spin turn backing DC against line of dance, and do only a quarter of a turn on the 456 reverse. But with that little turn, the 456 reverse doesn't really swing - it's just like sort of "step sideways across partner" for the lady. There is no tracking of the leg through under the body.

During all of this, I also realized that I sometimes substitute a double reverse spin or telemark after the 456 reverse, pretty much at the last minute. But to do a DRS I'd want to start facing directly down the LOD, which would seem to require even more turn on the spin, or less on the reverse.

Any thoughts?

[spatten]

Personally, I dislike the 456 reverse turn exit of the spin turn(turning lock much better), but I guess if you are sticking to a bronze syllabus - that is probably what you are stuck with. (Maybe a reverse pivot would work also)?


My inclination would be to do either the reverse turn or the double reverse spin down LOD. Exit the spin turn as per the book, which I believe is backing diagnoal center (with LOD, not against LOD). Am I incorrect?

I think it is much easier to overturn a spin turn, or underturn a reverse than to try and overturn the 456 of the reverse.

Scott

- Perhaps think of the 456 of the reverse turn as a feather finish in which the feet close.

[msc]

I'd think, assuming the Natural Spin Turn ends backing DC, that the reverse would only go around to line of dance. If you want to get to DC, add a little rotation during the lowering between the end of the 456 and the start of the reverse. That would probably make it look smoother, anyway.

I have a serious problem with over-rotation on all patterns, especially the feather finish in Foxtrot. It's so easy to over-rotate and wind up side-by-side with your partner.

Oops, I didn't see Scott's response before my post. Basically, I agree.

[Chris Stratton]

I guess a lot of times I feel like underturning the natural spin turn - making it almost a closed impetus in function. This isn't really consistent with the book.

I do see the logic in going around to exit backing DC or at least center - if it feels like there is room. Perhaps I'm just not used to the idea of exiting in a progressive direction which I can't see, and may need to get in the habit of doing that.

If taking the spin turn around to it's full value, there is obviously a lot of temptation to continue it with a turning lock, espcially turning lock to the right. But while that figure feels easy, I think it is even easier to do poorly - so I hesitate to do it unless I feel really connected to my partner and there is floorspace to really move.

(In general terms, lots of simple, clean bronze material has served me very well in competition this year up to gold and even pre-champ. I don't intend to abondon it even as I make more use of advanced figures - so one of the things that it makes sense to do while I have some down time is re-examine it for potential bad habits, like these iffy alignments)

[spatten]

Perhaps I'm just not used to the idea of exiting in a progressive direction which I can't see, and may need to get in the habit of doing that.



So how do you feel about Reverse Waves in Foxtrot? I love this step mostly because it gives a man a chance to show off his toe releases. But it probably does increase the chance of a crash.

espcially turning lock to the right. But while that figure feels easy, I think it is even easier to do poorly

Hmm. Just trying to think of the potential pitfalls in this step. Of course, there are all the problems inherent in ending Promenade. I guess that correct time to turn is definately tricky also. So I guess I agree it could easily dance poorly. Maybe you had some other reason in mind though?

I do agree with your not to the Bronze Material. Perhaps even more so in Foxtrot than Waltz. Might seem a little dull on the Tango or more likely the Quickstep side. Quickstep almost becomes another dance when you go to the tricks and step hops not in the syllabus.

Scott

[Chris Stratton]

Oh well, so much for trying to keep this conscicely technical and seperate from the feelings of the choregraphy thread - but any good discussion takes on a life of its own.

Perhaps I'm just not used to the idea of exiting in a progressive direction which I can't see, and may need to get in the habit of doing that.



So how do you feel about Reverse Waves in Foxtrot? I love this step mostly because it gives a man a chance to show off his toe releases. But it probably does increase the chance of a crash.


Yes, but I'm accustumed to worrying about that step. I'm used to being able to see coming out of the spin turn. That's the thing about bad habits - they feel good!

espcially turning lock to the right. But while that figure feels easy, I think it is even easier to do poorly

Hmm. Just trying to think of the potential pitfalls in this step. Of course, there are all the problems inherent in ending Promenade. I guess that correct time to turn is definately tricky also. So I guess I agree it could easily dance poorly. Maybe you had some other reason in mind though?


I think it's easy to sort of loose your partner in the continued turn, also to break a side or dump your head over or something. Then you are a mess before you even try to get to promenade.

Promenade itself is soooo tricky - I was looking through the open session photos from MIT last night, and basically couldn't find a promenade on anyone that I really liked. (Suprisingly, Boris & Carrie had the closest to acceptable promenade in my novice view). But one still tries...

In terms of dances, I agree bronze goes furthest in foxtrot - and when that is not enough, just do it backwards ;-) Waltz is the first one where I'm really adopting genuinely non-syllabus ideas for open. I'll probably add some salt to tango when I get a chance, but quickstep is going to stay practically silver for a while yet.

[Warren J. Dew]

I was taught three different alignments for spin turns: underturned (ends with the gent backing diagonal center against line of dance), full turn (ends gent backing diagonal center), and overturned (ends gent backing line of dance). I think appropriate follows are different for each.

I most often follow an underturned spin turn with the back half of a reverse, also a bit underturned (1/4 instead of 3/8), to end diagonal center. I do agree that one doesn't get as much of a swing on the back half of the reverse when it's underturned like this, though.

A standard turning lock, which turns to the left, is a good follow for a full turn spin turn. An overturned turning lock to the right, which used to be open, is a typical follow for an overturned spin turn, but this figure begins to sacrifice some of the swinging character of the waltz for flow of movement. Still, I do it a lot, so I shouldn't criticize it too much.

I guess I don't understand why people would avoid starting double reverse spins diagonal center.

[edited to correct typo on ending alignment of underturned spin turn]

[Chris Stratton]

(I think you accidentally said DW against LOD instead of DC against LOD for the underturned case)


I guess I don't understand why people would avoid starting double reverse spins diagonal center.

I rethought this recently, and I see your point. My fear was that if commenced DC, then some of the forward travel would as "sine error" take you towards the middle - and we were recenlty worried about the DRS finishing too far into the center. But if you commence DC and underturn the heel turn to compensate, then it might not be too bad.

[Larinda McRaven]

I guess a lot of times I feel like underturning the natural spin turn - making it almost a closed impetus in function.

"spimpetus"

[SDsalsaguy]

I guess a lot of times I feel like underturning the natural spin turn - making it almost a closed impetus in function.

"spimpetus"
Will that be in the next ISTD syllabus Larinda? :lol:

[pygmalion]

:lol: :lol: I thought this was a serious technical thread. :wink: :lol:

[Chris Stratton]

Cute name for it.

But just to avoid confusiong, I'm talking about a properly executed spin turn, simply underturned so it only rotates as much as a closed impetus.

[spatten]

Promenade itself is soooo tricky - I was looking through the open session photos from MIT last night, and basically couldn't find a promenade on anyone that I really liked.

I completely agree. That is the only reason I can figure why the open impetus is silver, and the closed impetus is bronze. I have always thought the closed actually more difficult.

On the other hand, many of the steps I truly enjoy do end promenade. Few steps feel as wonderful as a Hover to Promenade. I think the hardest part is that first step out with the right foot- my frame always sees to turn.

I most often follow an underturned spin turn with the back half of a reverse

I tried this, and actually prefer the reverse pivot. Much more pleasant in my opinion. Not exactly easy, but fun. Besides this is Waltz and I like rotation in my Waltz.

Scott

[Chris Stratton]

I completely agree. That is the only reason I can figure why the open impetus is silver, and the closed impetus is bronze. I have always thought the closed actually more difficult.

The other reason may be that the only bronze follow for this step is the chasse from PP - and not even in it's basic alignment. In foxtrot, the feather ending is technically silver, so there are no legal follows. Even if the feather ending were bronze, it can be very hard to close the lady from promenade directly into a position in which you can immediately lead a heel turn - which is what a bronze leader would probably want to do next.

Yet another reason may be to cement the closed version before introducting the possibility of going to promenade, since it can take real care for the lady to not anticipate herself into promenade when the closed impetus is fully developed. (You could argue even a spin turn may sometimes feel like it is going to promenade, but nobody jumps that as the spin to promenade is not syllabus)