Texas Tommy Swing

[Spitfire]

Is anyone familiar with the Texas Tommy Swing?

This was mentioned on another forum and I've never heard of it. :?:

[Vince A]

Hope this helps . . . the Texas Tommy is puportedly "the oldest swing dance."

http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3tex1.htm

Vince A

[Pass It On]

The Texas Tommy is also a move in Lindy Hop in which the leader switches hands behind the followers back.

[Spitfire]

Thanks for the info. :D

I use that move; just didn't know that is what it is called. That article mentions that it is also called a whip which is the name it was given as when I learned it. :o

[d nice]

Um... don't mean to offend anyone (possibly the only time I'll actually say that on this site) but streetswing is not exactly the most reliable of places to get information...

Great for just general info, especially on things like West Coast, but when you get to more vintage dances the info tends to be poorly researched.

Texas Tommy was developed in San Francisco, and the best practicioners of it by general consensus were the California Poppies who were an interracial dance team that performed regularly at Lou Purcell's So Different. There is a bit of an issue which resort/dancehall originated the Texas Tommy, but it is assured that it was out of the Barbary Coast area (not the fairmont as listed on streetswing). The So Different and the Thalia are the two most likely candidates.

For more information check out "The Barbary Coast: An Informal History of the San Francisco Underworld" -- by Herbert Asbury or even better "Jazz on the Barbary Coast" -- by Tom Stoddard.

[d nice]

I was asked to give a little more info on the Texas Tommy Swing. This dance was a fast circular dance that was done on the spot as well as follwoing the line of dance. Danced primarily in closed position it had a very fast and lively footwork, danced in an athletic crouch. The various breakaway variations were so explosive and done at high velocity that Ethel Williams notes that if connection was lost it was not uncommon for female performaers to be thrown into the orchestra pit!

This is the first dance ever to be refered to as a swing dance. One shoudl note it uses a double four beat basic (eight counts) and was characterized as a swing dance for both its music it was danced to (proto-jazz at the turn of the century up to hot jazz of the early twenties) and the breakaway step.

While the number of people who I know who can do it are few, for an idea of what it kind of looks like watch the first couple in "After Seben" or even better watch some of the lindy hoppers that do charleston swing outs... NOTE: These are NOT the Texas Tommy Swing but it will give you a pretty good impression of the dance.

Thel Stearns notes that Lindy Hop is a descendant of The Texas Tommy Swing, and Ethel Williams a professional dancer of both dances, states they are the pretty much the same except the begining steps, in "Jazz Dance: The Story of American Vernacular Dance " -- by Marshall and Jean Stearns.

[simon]

Texas Tommy will be taught by Richard Powers and Angela Amarillas as part of their November 7 to 9, 2003 Swing Dance Weekend in Toronto, Canada - Swing Dancing of the 1910s, 20s, 50s, 70s.

Richard will also be showing old film footage of Texas Tommy, I believe, at his lunchtime talk on swing dance history on Saturday November 8.

If you've never been to a Richard and Angela weekend you are missing out on something great - and this one will be especially fun and interesting, especially for anyone interested in swing dance.

Just in case you don't know who Richard is: he teaches dance full-time in the Dance Division at Stanford University in California, is widely regarded as the world's foremost historian of 20th and 19th century American social dance, and is an exceptionally good and interesting dance instructor with an international reputation. People who go to his workshops are, in my experience, generally amazed at the calibre of the teaching and the content. Angela has been his teaching partner for over eight years and shares his passion for historic vernacular dance.

Weekend details at http://www.dancing.org/w and http://www.odd-socks.org

I think that once you see and do Texas Tommy you'll recognize it and its influences in old films and in more recent swing.

[pygmalion]

Welcome to the forums, Simon! :D Thanks for the workshop info.

[Black Sheep]

Simon,
It is criminal to take away the credit for the development of the Lindy Hop from the African Americans who developed it at the Savoy in New York's Harlem in the 1920's and give credit to some red neck Texan who did a Square Dance he called the Texas Tommy Swing in S.F. in 1906. And now foist it on the public as an original.
Just read D'nice's description above of the TTS dance. That description alone tells you someone is trying to make a buck on some cacamamie Square dance and calling it the origin of the Lindy Hop. What's the problem? Are some teachers just running out of teaching material in Swing dancing?
I have a Swing dance that's older than the Texas Tommy Swing. It was done by my grandmother in Sicilia, called, the 'Nonna Peppa Tarentella Swing'. And it also was an eight count dance. I will announce the next group class after the Texas Tommy Swing lessons are over; I don't want our schedules to conflict.
In the meantime I will be going through the Sicilian News files of the 1850's and see if I can come up with any historical headlines, but unfortunately they will be in the Sicilian language, which was outlawed by Mussolini in 1932, but there are still a few of us around who are fluent in that ancient language so I will be able to translate the headlines for you when I find them.
Black Sheep, "You have to serve to deserve" Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

[DanceMentor]

Thel Stearns notes that Lindy Hop is a descendant of The Texas Tommy Swing, and Ethel Williams a professional dancer of both dances, states they are the pretty much the same except the begining steps, in "Jazz Dance: The Story of American Vernacular Dance " -- by Marshall and Jean Stearns.

I'm sure Lindy Hop had other influences as well. Sometimes it's difficult to draw an exact conclusion in a situation such as this, but the dances are similar enough to at least make the assumption that there is a relationship between the two.

That description alone tells you someone is trying to make a buck on some cacamamie Square dance and calling it the origin of the Lindy Hop. What's the problem? Are some teachers just running out of teaching material in Swing dancing?

It would be great if a teacher were to research the Texas Tommy and teach people about this historic dance. I would pay to take a few classes. I try to make a buck every day. If people were expected th share out of the kindness of their heart and never charge to help one another, I believe that would be known as Communism (I know that's not what you meant, Joe, but still...think about it). The quality of the instruction will determinr the success of the teacher over time.

[Black Sheep]

DanceMentor,
When I suggested Free Dance Lessons, in my thread, 'Socialized Dancing', I was using this as a way of getting non dancers interested in Swing. Three years ago, when I mentioned Venues in the 1950's were giving free dance lessons, the teachers were not paid by the students, but by the owners of the Ballrooms and night clubs who benefitted by the increase of patrons. Today, 3 years later, I notice most Venues are now giving free dance lessons. I don't think we could call them Communists!
I suggested ways that teachers could earn a BUCK by soliciting business from various hospitals, comunity programs, churches etc..
I also suggested that the more beginners in the Swing dancing population, the more paying private students would accrue from that increase: And Venues, teachers, and shoe salesmen would all make a bigger and better BUCK.
Isn't that exactly what I stated in my thread, 'Socialized Dancing'?
Black Sheep, 'Never mis Quote a man with a memory like a bear trap', my friend.[/i]

[Swing Kitten]

Yes Joe that is what you said in the other thread.

The subtle difference I see is the difference between learning to dance for free and never having to pay for a dance lesson or frowning upon teachers trying to 'earn a buck'.

The first is what was discussed in the Socialization thread. The second I believe is was DanceMentor was responding to.

For most folk, I am sure that you are among the few special exeptions, it approaches ludicrus to believe one may become a superb dancer or even a professional dancer without aid at the advanced level and unless one is extremely well networked with best friends in all the right places this means paying for lessons.

So the possible interpretations as they appear to me are:
-- no advanced lessons-- limited to social dance experience and "figuring stuff out" on one's own --dancing education is then in a vaccuume and cannot expand
-- advanced lessons for free-- a lot of really good friends or communism
-- advanced lessons paid for by student-- a teacher earning a buck which sounded like a put down in Joe's post before the last.

make sense?

[Black Sheep]

SwingKitten,
When I stated that I never paid for Ballroom Dance lessons, your post seems to assume, I never had professional training, which is incorrect.
Besides going through 2 Teacher's Training courses totaling 14 weeks, 6 hours a day six days a week and actually getting paid by Frank Veloz to learn his style, after joining his V & Y Chain, I continued to get trained by my manager Mario Salveneshi an International Ballroom dance team and many other accomplished professionals who were friends, either rented my studio or worked for me. Not to mention the Ballet, Flamenco. tap and Jazz classes that I took and DID pay for.
I do not demean dance teachers in anyway; it's your interpretation that make it appear so. I know I am the best friend dance teachers have, and someday they will realize that my critiques are challenges for them to improve and not take business for granted. I ran a studio of a staff that sometimes numbered a dozen full time teachers. I know how tough it is to get students, keep them interested and progressing. You have to love serving to teach any subject. I've been a teacher most of my working career. I do care for the success of teachers, and I hope my Commentaries provide some teaching material and motivation for students and teachers.
I don't expect others to become proficient dancers without professional training; that would be ludicrous. It just happened I was lucky, and I had an athletic background as a four letter man, at Lafayette H.S. in Brooklyn just before WW II and I practiced countless hours in front of a mirror while the rest of the world slept. Dancing was my salvation in many ways, and I want to pay back for all those Freebees in any way I can. I believe Dancing is the Magic Pill!
Black Sheep, Dance teachers' best friend.

[Black Sheep]

DanceMentor,
You stated:
"I'm sure Lindy Hop had other influences as well. Sometimes it's difficult to draw an exact conclusion in a situation such as this, but the dances are similar enough to at least make the assumption that there is a relationship between the two. "
I have to assume that you mean the Texas Tommy Swing is 'similar enough' to the Lindy Hop! Similarities exist in many dances, but that does not prove a 'genetic' connection.
Here is a list of similarities that too often have zero 'genetic' connections:

Salsa; step on 1,2,3 and hold the 4th beat SIMILARITY Balboa; step on 1,2,3 and hold 4th beat.

Samba; rise and fall body movement SIMILARITY Waltz; rise and fall movement.

Fox Trot; Step Patterns SIMILARITY Waltz; Step patterns.

Charleston, feet twisting on Quarter beats SIMILARITY Mashed Potatoes; feet twisting Quarter beats.

Salsa; step patterns SIMILARITY Mambo; step patterns.

Square Dancing; moving in circles SIMILARITY Texas Tommy Swing; moving in circles

Peabody; Body Style and Patterns SIMILARITY Slicker Foxtrot; Body Style and Patterns

Argentine Tango; the Tango Music SIMILARITY Continental Tango; the Tango Music

West Coast Swing; Rhythmic Count SIMILARITY Lindy Hop; Rhythmic Count

Conclusion: Many dances have similarities with other dances. But similarities do not necessarily prove a 'genetic connection'.
It takes more than dancing fast in circles to claim the Texas Tommy Swing was the origination of the Lindy Hop. And besides the Savoy Lindy Hop is characterized as dancing in a Rectangular Slot, not in circles.

Black Sheep 'Never Assume the Unknown' Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

[Swing Kitten]

SwingKitten,
When I stated that I never paid for Ballroom Dance lessons, your post seems to assume, I never had professional training, which is incorrect.

Yes that would be incorrect... that's why I didn't say that --I'm sorry I did not make that clearer.

...it approaches ludicrus to believe one may become a superb dancer or even a professional dancer without aid at the advanced level and unless one is extremely well networked with best friends in all the right places this means paying for lessons.

Ok, I was going a little overboard with the best friends comment but I stand by the well networked comment. I also mean this to include being at the right place at the right time/knowing the right people. You had a wonderful opportunity to get paid while being trained but I'm confident that you would agree that this is the exception and not the rule.


I do not demean dance teachers in anyway; it's your interpretation that make it appear so.

I was pointing out that that was a possible interpretation from your post... perhaps what DM was responding to even. That's all and I'm glad that it is now perfectly clear how ernest and dedicated you are as a teacher.

[d nice]

Simon,
It is criminal to take away the credit for the development of the Lindy Hop from the African Americans who developed it at the Savoy in New York's Harlem in the 1920's and give credit to some red neck Texan who did a Square Dance he called the Texas Tommy Swing in S.F. in 1906. And now foist it on the public as an original.
Just read D'nice's description above of the TTS dance. That description alone tells you someone is trying to make a buck on some cacamamie Square dance and calling it the origin of the Lindy Hop. What's the problem? Are some teachers just running out of teaching material in Swing dancing?
I have a Swing dance that's older than the Texas Tommy Swing.

You might not recognize sarcasm, but it is good to know that you can you can use it.

If you had read closely my posts about the Texas Tommy, or looked into any of the sources I quoted you realize that this whole post is so incredibly off base that it almost defies logic.

[d nice]

DanceMentor,
You stated:
"I'm sure Lindy Hop had other influences as well. Sometimes it's difficult to draw an exact conclusion in a situation such as this, but the dances are similar enough to at least make the assumption that there is a relationship between the two. "
I have to assume that you mean the Texas Tommy Swing is 'similar enough' to the Lindy Hop! Similarities exist in many dances, but that does not prove a 'genetic' connection.
Here is a list of similarities that too often have zero 'genetic' connections:

Salsa; step on 1,2,3 and hold the 4th beat SIMILARITY Balboa; step on 1,2,3 and hold 4th beat.

Actually the normal timing for Balboa is holding on 3/7 (or on any downbeat to be honest) switching to the up beat (most often 4/8) in what is refered to as break time. So there is not even that similarity in Salsa... however if you had looked deeper into Balboa you would have discovered a number of similiarities between Balboa and Rhumba, Charleston and single step shag.

Charleston, feet twisting on Quarter beats SIMILARITY Mashed Potatoes; feet twisting Quarter beats.

Wrong actually. The mashed Potato and the Kick Step are both descendant forms of the Charleston (which in itself is a descendant form of an African Dance step).

Square Dancing; moving in circles SIMILARITY Texas Tommy Swing; moving in circles

Joe there is no connection the Texas Tommy Swing and square dancing. If you had bothered to even skim any of the sources I cited you'd no this. Have you seen or done the Texas Tommy? How much time have you spent researching this dance, its origins, and its ties to lindy hop?

West Coast Swing; Rhythmic Count SIMILARITY Lindy Hop; Rhythmic Count

Wrong again. West Coast Swing is a descendant form of Lindy Hop.

Conclusion: Many dances have similarities with other dances. But similarities do not necessarily prove a 'genetic connection'.
It takes more than dancing fast in circles to claim the Texas Tommy Swing was the origination of the Lindy Hop. And besides the Savoy Lindy Hop is characterized as dancing in a Rectangular Slot, not in circles.

Sure many dances have similarities without having a formal connection. It requires research into music, history, and kinesiology to prove it. Of course one should not assume a connection just because of similarities, just as one SHOULD not assume a lack of connection without doing the aforementioned research.

[Black Sheep]

Baboa Buffs,
The Balboa Beat Is, Step on 1 & 2 Hold 3, AND step on 4, When going into a transition step, the Balboa beat is Step on 1, 2, 3 hold 4. My Bal instructor was Steve Garrett, 2001 National Balboa Champion. (And he never asked nor received a fee from me)
Technicalities do not negate my main premise which is, 'Similarities in dances do not NECESSARILY prove a generic connection'.
Almost all European and American Square dances have the same characteristics that D'nice uses to describe the TTS; 'very fast, done in a circle and uses an eight count step'. In addition to this general description that applies to countless dances, every Square Dance I had the fun in doing, uses the word, 'SWING' constantly. So how do these three descriptive words, 'very fast, done in circle, and uses an 8 count beat' prove anything?
And Ethel Walters would have to be well over a hundred years old to be a Primary Source of a dance done in `1906.
Black Sheep, the Turn-key.

[d nice]

Baboa Buffs,
The Balboa Beat Is, Step on 1 & 2 Hold 3, AND step on 4, When going into a transition step, the Balboa beat is Step on 1, 2, 3 hold 4. My Bal instructor was Steve Garrett, 2001 National Balboa Champion. (And he never asked nor received a fee from me).

Steve's list of credentials are much more expansive than this sole competition win. Thank you for agreeing that the balboa rhythm uses holds on 3/7 (downbeat) as its primary step and only uses the break-timing as a deviation.

Almost all European and American Square dances have the same characteristics that D'nice uses to describe the TTS; 'very fast, done in a circle and uses an eight count step'. In addition to this general description that applies to countless dances, every Square Dance I had the fun in doing, uses the word, 'SWING' constantly. So how do these three descriptive words, 'very fast, done in circle, and uses an 8 count beat' prove anything?
And Ethel Walters would have to be well over a hundred years old to be a Primary Source of a dance done in `1906.
Black Sheep, the Turn-key.

LOL. Joe there are numerous "square dances" that are done in a square instead of a circle. There are numerous "square dances" that involve moving up and down a line/slot... wow does that mean they are talking about lindy hop? Of course not. Don't ridiculous. Why don't you try looking up the references I provided before you attempt to pass judgement on its credibility? Seems like the logical thing to do.

An aside. We missed you at the San Francisco Lindy Exchange. I had some fun times talking with Steve, Julius, and Tise.

[Black Sheep]

Why are we wasting so much precious time and reading space about a dead dance like D'nicer's Texas Tommy Swing? Is he trying to build a reputation as the Texas Tommy Champion? Who cares if there ever was such a dance and whether or not it has a relation to Swing?
Is not this thread in fact a dead fish, a subject as Shakespeare would say, "Much to do about Nothing?"
And just look at the nit-picking of my commentaries that have nothing to do with anything educational or constructive! Just because Our friendly Moderator, the Protector and Savior of the Texas Tommy Trots, throws around his big 'WRONGS' based on nothing more than his WORD, does that bring any benefit to the readers of this Forum? How much educational value has there been in this thread that tries to prove his own theory that in the end means nothing, zip, nada, zero, flim flam, smoke and mirrors that keeps this San Francisco dead fish fluttering in the air waves. Bury the dead thing! It is overdue.
I find myself wasting time correcting false allegations made by our friendly moderator instead of making contributions by sharing my knowledge and experiences of the 1950's Hollywood.
How many readers benefited and who loses by this thread, the Texas Tommy Swing thing?
Is D'nice really trying to build his reputation on the TTS? Whoa! Get a better horse to ride, Don Quixote! Your old Texas Donkey can't even make it to the windmill!

Black Sheep 'When the thread is dead, put a lock on it'

If someone does not care about the early 1900's
when trying to learn the 1920's Lindy Hop roots,
why would someone care to learn about the 1950's
which are also roots of Lindy Hop in 2000?

-FF

[Black Sheep]

FunkyFreak,
The Hollywood of the 1950's, in case you haven't heard, along with the Hell's A Poppin Savoy 1930's era, was the 'Golden Age' of Swing when and where most of your great Swing movies were made. And according to Terry Monaghan, one of the most esteemed Lindy Historians, the 1957 Columbia film, 'Don 't Knock the Rock' STARTED the Lindy/Swing craze in Europe in the mid 1980's. How do I know this fact? because in 2001 Terry ended an 8 year search to find me, the dancer that did the Back Summersault in the Bill Haley scene 'Rip it Up'. And told me in person, the phenomenal affect this one single 1950's film had on the European Continent in reviving the Lindy/Swing craze.
If helping to revive the Lindy/Swing craze after some 20 years in the doldrums, isn't enough reason for eulogizing the Hollywood of the 1950's, nothing is!
Black Sheep, 'Good Questions, often Get Good Answers' Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

[d nice]

Jjoe let me explain something to you... I'll use short sentences and stay to the point so you CAN't misunderstand or misinterpret my point...

I did not start this thread.
I did not revive this thread.
My reputation is what it is.
It has nothing to do with the Texas Tommy Swing.
I have cited my sources, you have simply ignored them.
The history of anything is based on what came before.
We have no one's word but your own that Terry ever said this.
Terry cited one of Mama Lu Park's dancer's as being responsible for lindy hop in Europe.
Yet no one has challenged you on this.
Every source but you cites that the 40's were the highpoint of Swing music and dancing in America.
With the decline of big bands and the rise of rock rand roll groups (which like Haley decidely DO NOT SWING), calling the 50's the golden era of swing dancing is shall we say "questionable".

Lastly... no one forces you to read this thread, let alone post on it. If you don't like it and have nothing to contribute to the discussion, you are of course welcome to simply not read the thread. Not to hard is it?

[Black Sheep]

History Buffs,
If anyone reading my commentaries thinks I am naive enough to make a statement without having varifiable proof, than just ask me for the verification like D'nice asked about the Terry Monaghan stastement quoted below:
"And according to Terry Monaghan, one of the most esteemed Lindy Historians, the 1957 Columbia film, 'Don 't Knock the Rock' STARTED the Lindy/Swing craze in Europe in the mid 1980's. How do I know this fact? because in 2001 Terry ended an 8 year search to find me, the dancer that did the Back Summersault and the Jumping Jack in the Bill Haley scene 'Rip it Up'. And (Terry) told me in person, the phenomenal affect this one single 1950's film had on the European Continent in reviving the Lindy/Swing craze" (that spread around the world).
VERIFICATION: Email above Quote for Terry's verification:
<TERRYMONOGHAN@YAHOO.COM>
Black Sheep "Ask and ye shall Receive" Jesus

[simon]

Dear Black Sheep,

The Texas Tommy I'm talking about is of course not a "red neck square dance" done by white people from Texas as you suggest.

It is an Afro-American swing dance done by black Americans in California's Barbary Coast around 1910 as you could have discovered if you bothered to read for example the website for the November 7-8-9 Swing Weekend at http://www.dancing.org/w/

Information about the swing dance Texas Tommy is also mentioned by "d nice" above in this thread - including the streetswing website (and I'm not suggesting everything in streetswing is reliable or accurate, but they've got quite a few things right).

Also, it appears that there is a direct and unbroken line of development from 1910 Texas Tommy to 1927 Lindy Hop and quite a bit of similarity. Texas Tommy appears to have been brought to New York by Afro-American Texas Tommy dancers from California in the ealy 1910s. My source for this information is Richard Powers.

Anyway, why don't you just come to the weekend and find out what Richard will say and teach - I promise he and Angela will be teaching swing and blues (not square dances, red neck or otherwise), and that the quality of instruction will be excellent, and the historical dance research very solid and thorough.

Cheers,
Simon

If anyone reading my commentaries thinks I am naive enough to make a statement without having varifiable proof, than just ask me for the verification

I would appreciate some verification of your arguement in this thread, supported by multiple sources, if you have the time. Thanks in advance!

-FF

[simon]

Dear Black Sheep,

So that's you in the Rip It Up sequence!

You are infinitely more enlightening in that film than your comments on Texas Tommy have been in this thread!

Is there a thread about the Rip It Up sequence? - I'd like to read what you have to say about that.

Best regards,
Simon

[Black Sheep]

Simon'
There is the inside story under the thread, 'Don't Knock the Rock', on this Library forum. Check my website for additional photos and excerpts; <WWW.LINDYBYLANZA.COM>

And D'nice, you are the one who is WRONG when you stated the Mash Potatoes included the Charleston Kick. I taught the Mashed Potatoes to 49 Jr. high schools in the L. A. Unified School District from 1959 to 1963 when the Mashed Potatoes originated. You may do the Charleston Kick NOW as the Mashed Potatoes, but we NEVER did it in the original form.

VERIFICATION: I WROTE the only book describing those novelty dances of the 1960's, starting with the Twist and including a clear description of the Mashed Potatoes, plus I have a copy of Luella Parson's syndicated Hollywood Column where she paragraphs Joe Lanza's novelty book mentioning the Mashed Potatoes in 1962. I still have 3 original copies left of, 'Novelty Dances', pub. 1962.

And as for the Texas Tommy Swing, how are we going to be assured that what dance structure D'nice comes up with for the TTS isn't JUST a CONTRIVED dance to 'resemble' the Lindy? Does he have a structural description from the 1906 San Francisco article including, rhythm, styling and footwork patterns, etc.? How about posting them now with the documented 'SOURCES and DATES of this TTS so that we can analyze and interpret the dance for ourselves? Or is this a big secret among the esteemed elite?
Black Sheep 'History is often written by the WRONG people' Joe Lanza 2003

And as for the Texas Tommy Swing, how are we going to be assured that what dance structure D'nice comes up with for the TTS isn't JUST a CONTRIVED dance to 'resemble' the Lindy?
How about posting them now with the documented 'SOURCES and DATES of this TTS so that we can analyze and interpret the dance for ourselves?
You can be assured by reading the books and watching the videos he's posted already in this thread.

Do you have some books or videos to share?

-FF

[Swing Kitten]

Joe,

D nice has nothing to gain by arbitrarily contradicting you. He does not need to bolster himself up... generally, I've noticed, he has not taken advantage of opportunities to do so... this is something I find admirable. He seems very much motivated by his pursuit of accuracy... thus the disagreements. :wink:

Alright, I'm sure I' not the only one who is sick of this broken record! You incecently call for sources ( which D nice has consistantly provided ) then proceed to ignore them.

here they are (just from this very short thread)
For more information check out "The Barbary Coast: An Informal History of the San Francisco Underworld" -- by Herbert Asbury or even better "Jazz on the Barbary Coast" -- by Tom Stoddard.
books with independant publishers
Thel Stearns notes that Lindy Hop is a descendant of The Texas Tommy Swing, and Ethel Williams a professional dancer of both dances, states they are the pretty much the same except the begining steps, in "Jazz Dance: The Story of American Vernacular Dance " -- by Marshall and Jean Stearns.

Simon provided us with this link:
http://www.dancing.org/w/

To make it EVEN easier... here is what it says in regards to Texas Tommy Swing

The Texas Tommy:

We've known for decades that the Lindy Hop probably evolved from the Texas Tommy, a couple dance done by African Americans in San Francisco's Barbary Coast around 1910. But until recently we've had no good descriptions of this elusive dance. The riddle was finally solved when two film clips of blacks dancing the Texas Tommy were discovered. These silent films, shot in the Barbary Coast around 1910, show the footwork, swingouts, "Tandem Charleston" position, pivots, barrel rolls and wraps, and are surprisingly similar to the 1928 film of the Lindy Hop as done by Shorty Snowden and other Savoy Ballroom dancers. Much of what comes later in swing dance is contained in Texas Tommy.

SOURCES!! READ THEM!! What else could you possibly want!! Even if you can't admit you were wrong about this, can you at least drop it?

[Black Sheep]

Swing Kitten,
How many times has your admired esteemed friend rained on my parade, mis quoted me, distorted my COMMENTARIES and just recently incorrectly stated I was WRONG about the Mashed Potatoes?
I notice FunkyFreak and you are ardent supporters of the smoke screens your esteemed moderator throws up.
I asked for a simple description of the TTS to decide for myself. I have read too many books to know that authors have their own agenda's. I am not WRONG as you suggest. I want to see the description on this post, just like I gave detailed descriptions of my MAGIC PILL. I did not tell people to buy my 'Lindy by Lanza' book which describes the Magic Pill teaching method. It takes me about thirty minutes to write these Commentaries. That is all the discretionary time I have for these repartees.
Black Sheep 'Don't believe everything you read'. Joe Lanza 2003 a. d.

[SDsalsaguy]

Even if you can't admit you were wrong about this, can you at least drop it?
Obviously that's too much to ask Swing Kitten. :(

Black Sheep 'Don't believe everything you read'. Joe Lanza
Couldn't agree more with this most recent tag line Joe...which is why no one here is willing to believe your version just because you tell us we should. d'nice has provided numerous references to independently published works. If you don't want to take the time to track them down in a local library that's fine...and your business. But to then come back here and claim he hasn't provided evidence is nothing more then a blatant avoidance of reality.

Why are we wasting so much precious time and reading space about...
Hypocritical much here Joe? You're the only one who seems to think this thread is a waste but, low and behold, guess who keeps posting away...

[d nice]

VERIFICATION: I WROTE the only book describing those novelty dances of the 1960's, starting with the Twist and including a clear description of the Mashed Potatoes...


Black Sheep 'History is often written by the WRONG people' Joe Lanza 2003

*snicker*

[d nice]

And D'nice, you are the one who is WRONG when you stated the Mash Potatoes included the Charleston Kick. I taught the Mashed Potatoes to 49 Jr. high schools in the L. A. Unified School District from 1959 to 1963 when the Mashed Potatoes originated. You may do the Charleston Kick NOW as the Mashed Potatoes, but we NEVER did it in the original form.

Wow, you told me Joe. I guess I can ignore the words of the dancers from the era who did both dances. I guess I can ignore the Labanotation models cronstructed and the resulting studies concerning the Charleston and the Mashed Potatos by kinesiologists, ethno-musicologists and dance historians.

Because you wrote a book, which you published yourself, and was then quoted by someone else. That is so obviousely better than my sources.

Actually I guess I'm just not that intelligent, but could you tell us who invented the mashed potato? Where it came from? When it was first danced? When it was first taught in dance studios?

Thanks.

Actually since we have wandered on to a tangent for a second, Let me clarify something from my previous post... it is the Charleston that is descendant of an African dance step, the Mashed Potato and the Kick Step that are descendants of it. Do you even know the Kick Step? When it was danced, who popularized it? What was the first film it could be seen in?

[Swing Kitten]

Swing Kitten,
How many times has your admired esteemed friend rained on my parade, mis quoted me, distorted my COMMENTARIES and just recently incorrectly stated I was WRONG about the Mashed Potatoes?
I have yet to see him mis quote you-- maybe misinterperate... which in this medium, anyone could do (and in those instances he was not the only person to do so)-- but never mis quote. And the last I checked it's not wrong to disagree... even if it means raining on your parade.

I notice FunkyFreak and you are ardent supporters of the smoke screens your esteemed moderator throws up.
How often are 'smoke screens' supported with more proof than what they are hiding? If D nice said something that I did not agree with or that I knew or highly suspected to be false I would not back him up on that! I have my own brain thank you! Yes, d nice has my trust... and do you know why? He's EARNED it! He has earned it by being consistantly knowledgeable and professional. He provides sources (this we know) and demonstrates logic in his thinking.

I have read too many books to know that authors have their own agenda's.
Interesting... is that you have read too many books or is that you have written too many books to know that authors have their own agenda?

I am not WRONG as you suggest.
I wouldn't expect you to agree that you are wrong-- it is clear that you do not think so.

I did not tell people to buy my 'Lindy by Lanza' book which describes the Magic Pill teaching method.
Could someone buy this book even if they wanted to? I just searched amazon.com with no results.

'Don't believe everything you read'. Joe Lanza 2003 a. d.

I couldn't agree more.

[SwinginBoo]

You go girl! :D

[Black Sheep]

TTS Believers,
When someone offers 2 film clips supposedly produced in 1910 where sound and color are missing as proof of a dance...give me a break!
I just want substantial evidence that holds up in the real world.
Now let me share with you the REAL origin of Swing Dancing:
Most dances, the Samba, Tango, and Nonna Peppa's Tarantella, started among the peasants, the economically improvised segments of society.
And the Lindy's origin was no different; it was started in New Orleans as a Funeral Processional March. Negro's were hired to escort the funeral procession to the grave yards playing their music, and of course the music was the original jazz. It was just natural for those New Orleans processional marchers, who were paid to accompany the funeral processions, to throw in some fancey syncopated footwork while marching to the music.
Eventually they embellished their dance moves and created the Lindy which was transported to New York along with the New Orleans Jazz Music and ended up in the Savoy Ballroom where it was honed into the form that Frankie dances.
Now you have Frankie Manning who is old enough to one way or another corroborate this New Orleans origin or not.
However, it is possible that from New Orleans the Texas Tommy was also transported to San Francisco.
I do not doubt there was a dance called the Texas Tommy Swing, but IF this TTS is what yo all's saying it is, then it must have come from the Motherland of Jazz, New Orleans! That's logic, that makes sense! That's a hell of a lot more acceptable of a scenario as the origin of Lindy, than those 2 Black & White Film Clips WITHOUT SOUND! How did anybody ever manage to count to 8 without sound? Two 1910 film clips...in Black and White...with no sound! No wonder Arnold got elected!
Black Sheep 'People often believe without Questioning' Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

[HepcatBob]

Unfortunately, Joe, it's impossible to provide a film clip from 1910 with either sound or color. Neither had been invented at that point in time. Personally, I would like to see actual proof that the Lindy DID start in New Orleans as you just claimed. Can you provide such proof?

[d nice]

Joe... provide me with some evidence citing N.O. as the birth place of lindy hop.

While you are at it... why not provide counter evidence to Stoddard's claims about the birthplace of jazz. Give me some locations, some band names, some locations, dates.

[Swing Kitten]

Unfortunately, Joe, it's impossible to provide a film clip from 1910 with either sound or color. Neither had been invented at that point in time. Personally, I would like to see actual proof that the Lindy DID start in New Orleans as you just claimed. Can you provide such proof?

In Technicolor please! :D

[HepcatBob]

In Technicolor please! :D

And Quadrophonic Surround Sound!!!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

That's a hell of a lot more acceptable of a scenario as the origin of Lindy, than those 2 Black & White Film Clips WITHOUT SOUND!

You're right, Joe.

You can't recreate and know what a dance is completely just from two clips of video.

That's why it's suggested you pick up the books above, to help start getting a real detailed understanding at a dance, for which you need to also look at a dance's roots.

-FF

[simon]

Dear Black Sheep,

Well what a relief you are no longer saying the Texas Tommy Swing I referred to was a square dance done by a red neck from Texas in 1906.

Thank you for the references to Don't Knock the Rock and the brilliant dance footage in it.

To all,

As you are all aware (with one possible exception), the circa 1910 silent films of black American Texas Tommy dancers doing Texas Tommy (including leading practitioners of the dance at that time I think) are not the only evidence of Texas Tommy. They are not Richard's only source for recreating Texas Tommy, and are not, I gather, the only old film footage of Texas Tommy he will show.

I find being able to see and learn Texas Tommy Swing very exciting.

As mentioned, the webpage for the November 7-8-9 swing history weekend can be found at the dancing.org website - http://www.dancing.org/w/

Best regards,
Simon

[Black Sheep]

TTS Buffs,
I hope you noticed I gave you a way out when I said," However, it's possible that the Lindy was ALSO transported to San Francisco at the same time from N. O. when it was carried to New York from New Orleans!"
I do not purport to be an historian, but it was general knowledge in the 1940's and 1950's that the Lindy originated as I stated it in my previous post.
As for proof! I'll stick my neck out by suggesting you ask the following dancers, with whom I pledge that I have never discussed this subject with. 'Ask Frankie, ask Irene Thomas, ask Jean Phelps Veloz, ask Terry Monaghan, or ask any old-timer who was actively Swing dancing in the 1940's!
We were chronologically closer to the historical facts in 1940's then those researching the subject 50 years later. And many Primary Source individuals were still alive in the 1940's to corroborate that scenario.
I don't like to bust any balloons, but by sticking to that TTS story, you are headed for a feast on humble pie.
However, I will concede to you on one important point:
If this TTS shows some significant relationship to the Savoy Lindy, then we may have a missing 'Evolutionary Link' between the original N.O. dance and the Savoy Lindy through the TTS, and then you do not need the 2 film clips to prove your point that TTS superceded the Savoy Lindy. But, and this is a BIG 'but', the TTS did NOT originate the Lindy, but merely played a transitional role from the mother lode, N. O. onto S. F. and ending up in the N.Y. C. Savoy Ballroom. That's your possible Theory of Evolution that you can hang your historian pride on. But who believes in 'Evolution' any more anyway?
TTS, transitional, Si! TTS, original? Nada!
Black Sheep ' When playing Poker, look out for the Joker!' Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

[d nice]

Joe how do you trace Lindy Hop to solo jazz dancing in N.O.? Where is the partnering aspect brought in?

If you want to take the route that all dance is a matter of evolution then the birth place of the Lindy Hop is Africa.

As to asking dancers from the time period... well Ethel Williams danced both, was the the lead follow that introduced the dance to New York, she is the one who first led Marshal Stearns to the history of the Texas Tommy. If you had read the resources I cited and done some independant research you'd know this already.

[Black Sheep]

D'nice,
If you want to go Africa in ad absurdium, than I'll go you one-upmanship better and go to my Nonna Peppa's Tarantella Swing in Sicily which is close enough to the Africans who probably got the Swing idea from my Nonna Peppa.
Seriously: You asked for verifications of my claim that New Orleans was the birth place of Lindy. I gave you some very respectable names in the annals of Swing history, to verify my contention that the funeral marches in New Orleans were the origins of the Swing. Why haven't you followed up on these friends of yours? Or did you contact them concerning the Origin of Swing, and their responses were not what you wanted to hear? I am holding my breath, waiting for your answer!

Black Sheep 'Patience often loses the issue with too much waiting' Joe Lanza 2003 a. d.

[d nice]

Joe... you just named off people. You haven't talked to them about it at all. I could just as easily name a half dozen people I've never talked to about it and say they back my side. Instead I actually did the required research to make a decision one way or another.

So I ask you again, what are your SPECIFIC resources that back your statements? Give me some names, dates etc. And again I ask what exactly is your stance on Stoddard's assertations about the origins of jazz? Give us the low down Joe.

Your time-line is completely imaginary. I mean really it quite insulting to the members of this forum to just make up information and try and pass it off as legitimate. Give us some exact dates and locations and names that we can check or just leave it alone.

Is that bit about the Africans getting the idea of swing from your "nonna" suppossed to be funny? Personally I find it distasteful. Africans and African Americans have had enough of their culture, history, and credit for artistic and scientific accomplishments "appropriated" by other cultures. I don't find it funny even in jest.

[Steve Pastor]

Just for the record...
Katrina Hazzard-Gordon writes in "Jookin:..." ,
"Dances such as...Texas Tommy...probably gained initial acclaim among African-Americans through there etnertainers", by which she meant "black entertainers (who) crisscrossed the South in tent shows, medicine shows, and gillies"
Note use of the word "probably".

[Steve Pastor]

Here's a question...
Did anyone go to the Powers thing?
I'm curious about what kind of music he decided to use.

"Swing music started in the mid-1920's", and blues was still being codified at that time. And the film is from San Francisco?
I've looked at a bunch of silent film showing dances, and not having the sound posses and interesting dilema.

Anyone?

[Steve Pastor]

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/ammemicon2.gif (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/ammemhome.html)

An American Ballroom Companion: Dance Instruction Manuals (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/dihome.html)


DANCES OF TO-DAY
BY
ALBERT W. NEWMAN
Member of the Imperial Society Masters
of Dancing, London
PHILADELPHIA
THE PENN PUBLISHING COMPANY
1914
GV1755
.N5
COPYRIGHT 1914 BY THE PENN PUBLISHING COMPANY
LC
$ 1.00
MAY 18 1914

TEXAS TOMMY

"Music, "Ephraim's Brass Band Jones," or the song "Texas Tommy Swing," or any schottische with a good swing. 4-4 tempo."

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/musdi:@field(DOCID+@lit(M122107))

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=122/musdi122.db&recNum=160&itemLink=r?ammem/musdi:@field(DOCID+@lit(M122107))%231220162&linkText=1 (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=musdi&fileName=122/musdi122.db&recNum=160&itemLink=r?ammem/musdi:@field(DOCID+@lit(M122107))%231220162&linkText=1)

[Steve Pastor]

This is guaranteed to make some of you crazy, and I'm just throwing this out there to see what comes back....

I was reading about Hungarian dance, and Hungarians were among the residents of the Barbary Coast back around the turn of the last century and...

MOST IMPORTANT CHARACTERISTICS OF HUNGARIAN DANCE:
1. They are almost always improvised.
http://hungaria.org/hal/folklor/index.php?halid=3&menuid=55

"the men free their partners when, and for so long as, they fell inclined. Thus their hands are free and they can again take hold of their parnter when they wish..." page 94 Hungarian Dances. Karoly Viski. 1937.

"The brisker movements of the dance retained that peculiarity which is the feature of all Hungarian dances: the right of the dancer to improvise according to his talent and mood." page 44

[Zhena]

This is guaranteed to make some of you crazy, and I'm just throwing this out there to see what comes back....

I was reading about Hungarian dance, and Hungarians were among the residents of the Barbary Coast back around the turn of the last century and...

MOST IMPORTANT CHARACTERISTICS OF HUNGARIAN DANCE:
1. They are almost always improvised.
http://hungaria.org/hal/folklor/index.php?halid=3&menuid=55

"the men free their partners when, and for so long as, they fell inclined. Thus their hands are free and they can again take hold of their parnter when they wish..." page 94 Hungarian Dances. Karoly Viski. 1937.

"The brisker movements of the dance retained that peculiarity which is the feature of all Hungarian dances: the right of the dancer to improvise according to his talent and mood." page 44

How funny that you should bring this up just a week after I posted this:
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=32584

Are the dances improvised? Yes. Unstructured? Absolutely not. This is true of most dances where participants are in contact.

I had the embarassing experience of slapping the author of the article in your reference ... he was teaching, I ended up as his partner in the rotation, he led me in a turn and my hand was in the wrong position ... oops. (He was, of course, gracious about it ... I was probably neither the first nor the last woman to make that mistake.)

[Steve Pastor]

So, since you're in the Bay Area, and it sure looks like things Hungarian are of interest to you, maybe you can help with this.

Where would I find accounts from, or about, the turn of the the last century in and around the "Barbary Coast" to try to get an idea how much Hungarian and African Americans might have interacted with each other?
I see someone has wirtten a book fairly recently.

Or anything that would shed light on that time and place?

Yeah, "improvisation" is often in the eye of the beholder. Or is it?
Still, why would African American male dancers start "throwing out" their partner in a partner dance. Having seen Hungarian Americans do it is one possible explanation.
Has this come up before to your knowledge?

[Zhena]

So, since you're in the Bay Area, and it sure looks like things Hungarian are of interest to you, maybe you can help with this.

Where would I find accounts from, or about, the turn of the the last century in and around the "Barbary Coast" to try to get an idea how much Hungarian and African Americans might have interacted with each other?
I see someone has wirtten a book fairly recently.

Or anything that would shed light on that time and place?

Yeah, "improvisation" is often in the eye of the beholder. Or is it?
Still, why would African American male dancers start "throwing out" their partner in a partner dance. Having seen Hungarian Americans do it is one possible explanation.
Has this come up before to your knowledge?

I'm not a historian ... I try to pay attention when someone presents background, but I don't actively search ... I'm not sure how much help I can give you.

If I were to research this, the first thing I would do is ask Richard Powers at Stanford (as suggested earlier in the thread). He IS a dance historian, and would be likely to know where to start looking for first-hand accounts. The second person I would ask is Jerry Duke, who used to teach at San Francisco State University (he retired about a year ago, but is still listed as "emeritus"). The bits of his original research I have seen are more oriented to Appalachian dances, but I think he taught dance history and may have some ideas on source materials. He is also familiar with various forms of swing and several forms of Hungarian dance and might have insight into similarities and differences.

At one point I dug through some very old newspaper files (probably on microfiche) in the SF main library. I'm not sure how far back they go, but they might have stories that would be useful. Of course that would mean wading through massive amounts of irrelevant stuff.

What does the recent book have to say? What started you down this path?

[Zhena]

I've been thinking more about this. I dance East Coast Swing and West Coast Swing but I don't have a good understanding of other forms of swing (meaning I can't tell the difference between Lindy and Jive, much less identify Texas Tommy). I have been taught a few of the varieties of Hungarian dance, but I certainly don't know all of them and can't always recognize them by either movements or music. Given those caveats, here are some further thoughts:

The characteristic I find most similar between the two genres is not improvisation, but rather the feeling of tension-release (the rubber-band or slingshot effect) between the partners. I'm not sure what you mean when you say the men started "throwing out" their partner, but I'm going to interpret it as developing tension through moving apart, then releasing that tension. In Hungarian dance, the release usually means moving around a common center, often passing through a neutral point back into tension. In WCS, the tension in the first step coming out of the anchor can be released into the compression of the sugar push or into the momentum that drives a whip or into whatever other figure the leader comes up with. (Note, however, that this observation may be strongly influenced by the fact that I personally really enjoy the "whoosh" of the release of tension in both dances, so I tend to help my partner develop the tension.)

I'm trying to think through the list of other dances I know to see if any others have this feeling of tension-release in the same way. Although other dances occasionally have a little of this feeling, I can't think of any others where it is a defining characteristic. Waltz, tango, foxtrot, rumba, cha cha, samba ... no. Hustle ... yes, but it falls into the swing family. Scandinavian ... no. Polish, Slovakian, Czech, Slovenian, Croatian ... sometimes, but they're related to Hungarian/Romanian.

So were there other dances with tension-release before the development of swing? It's such a basic feeling that I'd be surprised to learn it hadn't been developed before ....

What do you think?

[Steve Pastor]

Why am I interested in this? It all started with reading repeatedly that West Coast Swing was first danced to blues music. That did not make sense to me. And what I could find about WCS was badly written, and very confusing.
So, I started asking questions and checking out things that I saw mentioned.
If you glance through this thread, http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=13426 you'll see how my thinking evolved as I found new information.

Because of an interest in the music of that era - the 40s and 50s - I went down other paths. One was, where did "swing" dancing come from?
Texas Tommy is often mentioned as one of the roots of "swing". But, where did Texas Tommy come from? The Barbary Coast, we are told.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say the men started "throwing out" their partner, but I'm going to interpret it as developing tension through moving apart, then releasing that tension.

The Texas Tommy was a hit around 1910 at a Negro cabaret, Purcell's, on the Barbary Coast. Ethel Williams, who helped popularize the dance in New York in 1913 described it as a "kick and a hop three times on each foot followed by a slide. The basic steps are followed by a breakaway an open position, while keeping with the timing, that allowed for acrobatics, antics, improvisations, and showing off. Both Williams and Johnny Peters introduced the dance to New Yorkers in the 1913 Darktown Follies.[1][2]

The dance is said by many to be the first swing dance. The main reason being that during this period (1909), all the dances were done in "closed" position, this was supposedly the first modern dance of the time to include the "break-away" step (dancing in open position) while using a basic 8 count rhythm. (The "break-away" step developed into a dance with the same name.) The dance was one of many that originated in the dancehalls of the Barbary Coast redlight district.

According to Ethel Williams, who helped popularize the Texas Tommy in New York in 1913, the Texas Tommy "was like the Lindy", and the basic steps were followed by a breakaway identical to that found in the Lindy. Savoy dancer "Shorty" George Snowden stated that, "We used to call the basic step the Hop long before Lindbergh did his hop across the Atlantic. It had been around a long time and some people began to call it the Lindbergh Hop after 1927, although it didn't last. Then, during the marathon at Manhattan Casino, I got tired of the same old steps and cut loose with a breakaway..."

The Stearns book, if I remember right, states that the female partner was thrown out with such force that they sometimes ended up in the orchestra pit, although the man was supposed to catch her at the last instant.

Where did the idea to separate from the partner in such a fashion come from?
(there is a PhD dissertation on Texas Tommy that I haven't read completely yet, or looked at recently. At some point in farily recent history there was a lot of standardization of Hungarian dances, I have read.)

I had always felt that dance historians often focus on ballroom dancing, as if that represented ALL dancing of "European" cultures. And it most certainly doesn't.
So when I read about Hungarian men releasing their partners, and noted two waves of Hungarian immigrants to California.... It just seemed to fit. (but only as a hypothesis)

And in an effort to explain how I developed the feel for music that I have, in a family that produced no other dancers (except that my aunts all knew dances to do at weddings ...) I note both the regular grades in music through 8 years of Catholic grade school, and... being 3rd generation in this country Hungarian ancestry on my mother's side.

Powers did not respond to an earlier email regarding WCS.

[Zhena]

I read the whole "original music" thread (it took more than a glance ;)) ... so I now have a better idea of what you are trying to discover (even though a lot of the information in there went way over my head).

Returning to your latest post, if I understand you correctly, the quality that made the Texas Tommy unique was the breakaway in open position that allowed for acrobatics, antics, improvisations and showing off. You also say Ethel Williams said the Texas Tommy breakaway was identical to that found in the Lindy, and "Shorty" George Snowden said they did the Hop long before the Lindy. This doesn't seem to clarify the relationship of the Hop to the Texas Tommy -- one from the other or independent development.

On the character of the dance -- both the open position allowing for "improvisations" and the "throw" with catch are key elements of several Hungarian dances. So far, so good. I see (or rather, as a follower in both forms, I feel) the analogy.

The question I am inclined to ask is whether these elements arose in any other dance form. The "open" position is the most basic way for two individuals to dance together. Two children imitating their elders won't take closed frame; they'll dance with joined hands. When an adult dances with a child, they tend to take the open position (I'm not talking about when adults pick children up ... the children are being danced, but not "danced with" because they are not active participants).

So the question becomes, are there any other known dance forms with the elements of open position, "improvisation", AND throw/catch? I'm not aware of any, but I'm not a dance historian. Bottom line, you may be on to something.

It's too bad Richard Powers didn't answer your earlier email. He seems to be a busy guy, though. (For full disclosure I don't know him. My only contact has been 2 or 3 massive group classes, including one at one of his dance weekends, plus reading his web site.)

You might try Jerry Duke. I think his email address is on the web site for San Francisco State University. If that doesn't work, let me know. I usually run into him once or twice a year. I don't think he knows me ... I'm one of many dancers, and he's a well-known teacher in the folk dance world ... but we've chatted on the sidelines once or twice, and I think he might be interested in the topic. As I mentioned earlier, he is familiar with both swing and Hungarian dance, has done some original research on certain American dance forms, and has taught dance history. His viewpoint is not limited to ballroom dance (though it is included of course). A side note ... in your music thread I believe you mentioned Glenn Miller's "String of Pearls". Jerry choreographed a progressive swing dance to that song to expose folk dancers to swing.

[Zhena]

At some point in farily recent history there was a lot of standardization of Hungarian dances, I have read.


I'd like to clarify this. Again, I am not a historian or an expert, but I've had some exposure to the topic. I stand ready to be corrected if someone has better information, but here's my understanding.

There has been a certain amount of research into Hungarian music and dance for many years (e.g., Brahms and Bartok), but there was an upswing in interest starting in the 1970's. Young Hungarians became interested in their heritage and started investigating music and dance. They found substantial amounts of material in areas where people had been isolated and free from many modern influences (particularly in ethnic Hungarian populations inside Romania). Ethnographic research is still being done.

With the use of modern video equipment, it is easier to capture the details of dance and music. This allows researchers to identify similarities and differences. The dances are not being "standardized" but rather classified. Hungary has a system of academic support for this research and a community of dedicated individuals who strive to maintain an understanding of the culture. Responsible dance teachers are clear on the distinction between the different dances. As in any community there are differences of opinion on how to approach this resource, but there is a common understanding that the dance from Magyarpalatka is different from the dance from Magyarszovat, and both are forms of something commonly called Meszosegi (forgive the lack of diacritical marks).

It is possible that the different forms will evolve into a mushy form of generic Hungarian dance, but currently, as far as I know, the distinctions are being preserved, because the distinctions are clearly defined.

[Zhena]

I just re-read this whole thread, including checking some of the links. The description of the Texas Tommy is definitely NOT like Hungarian dance, but is (as indicated by the suggestion of appropriate music) more like a schottische. The description does not include any mention of breakaway movement. Now I'm more confused than ever ....

[Steve Pastor]

"The main reason being that during this period (1909), all the dances were done in "closed" position, this was supposedly the first modern dance of the time to include the "break-away" step (dancing in open position) while using a basic 8 count rhythm." from wikipedia, I need to check the source, though

Now, this one has a good references...
The basic steps are followed by a breakaway, an open position, while keeping with the timing, that allowed for acrobatics, antics, improvisations, and showing off. Both Williams and Johnny Peters introduced the dance to New Yorkers in the 1913 Darktown Follies.
Stearns, Marshall and Jean (1968). Jazz Dance: The Story of American Vernacular Dance. New York: Macmillan. page 323
Ballroom, Boogie, Shimmy Sham, Shake: A Social and Popular Dance Reader.Julie Malnig. Edition: illustrated. University of Illinois Press. 2008.
page 58. ISBN 025207565X, 9780252075650


Yup, I noted the similarity to schottische, too. There's another dance which was done to/ called "Pop Goes the Weasel" described in a book called "Cowboy Dances" published in 1934 or 39.

See discussion here http://dancehistory.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=807. It doesn't resolve anything, but does mention the aurthor of the PhD thesis I mentioned.

I've now got 3 books out of the library on Hungarian dance!
And one on Cowboy dances, and one one Argentine Tango, and one with info on the proposed multicultural, rather than simply African / European nature of jazz (add Latin).
Tressilo added to milonga sent me on that tangent!

So many books...

Anyhow, maybe I'll try soem of the folks you've mentioned. But, maybe when I have soemthing a bit more substantial!

[Zhena]

Steve,

I spent the weekend at a dance seminar that Jerry Duke also attended. I took the opportunity to ask him about this. His initial response was that he didn't think there is a link. Then he started talking about how the development of the dance in New York was related to certain people's reactions to this rhythm (insert demonstration here) and the perceived need to sanitize it to this rhythm (next demonstration). It took only about 3 seconds for it to go completely over my head (particularly since at that point I had consumed <CENSORED> glasses of wine), but my conclusion was that he has thought about this very question and has some theories.

I mentioned your name to him, so if you do decide to approach him, it won't be a complete surprise (of course, I have no idea how many glasses of wine HE had consumed at that point, so he might not remember ...).

Let me know how the research is progressing ...