Better to Pay Competition Fees Late

[DanceMentor]

Unfortunately, I pulled my shoulder and back pretty bad, and not only were we not able to rehearse, but my doctor recommended that I don't dance for a few days. Fortunately, both the airline and the hotel have a refund policy, but the competition does not. I prefer not to mention the competition, and many competitions have this policy anyway.

I can better understand now why competitions get frustrated with late entries. If you have a death in the family, illness, or other calamity, at least in terms of the competition guidelines, even these reasons are not sufficient to get a refund. In my case, I requested the money be used for an amateur scholarship on behalf of dance forums. I don't know if they will even do that, but I hope so.

So let me get back to my point...

Competitions often receive many registrations long after the competition (so called) deadline for entry has past. I'm sure that quite a few people like me have either faced a similar situation, or heard a horror story, where a competitor lost a good deal of money as a result of the non-refund policy. Since organizer discretion for special cases varies widely from competition to competition, there are no guarantees, unlike an airline (doctor's note) or hotel (simply cancel 24 hours in advance). It then becomes a more risky decision to mail in entries early (especially with pre-payment), and much safer to wait until the deadline or later.

In some cases, I have seen events that have actually allowed people to add entries at the event (after it had already started!), yet were refusing refunds to cancellations.

In recent years, I have participated at a number of competitions where the money could be paid as you are checking in at the event, even though the entries were due earlier. In some of these events, I got the impression the organizer preferred you paid before arriving, but it was evident they would still take your money, so long as you were registered. I am much more a proponent of this method. What about you?

[tanya_the_dancer]

I think some competitions do give refunds for illness and such. Some might give you credit for the next year, but not the actual $$ back, though.

[fascination]

well...I think it makes obvious sense that an organizer will be more flexible about taking your money than about returning it...as to reception of late entries...ahem...there are several drawbacks to at least the pro/ am dancer in this regard...as all of the following can and have occurred in my case; "since it was past the deadline, we have no room for you in the hotel", "since it was past the deadline, your dancesport voucher can't be used", "since it was past the deadline and your entry would turn the scholarship into a semi, we won't do that because it will mess up the schedule so you can't dance in the scholarship"...obviously sometimes entries have to be late...if one has a very busy pro or some ladies are on the fence about whether or not to go...but, in general it has some significant disadvantages as well...i will say that the only time I ever thought I might have to cancel a comp due to family crisis, the organizer was wonderful...the other time, which was due to an issue w/ former pro and I ...we took it in the shorts and it wasn't fun...but that was our fault

[Katarzyna]

I am pretty bad when it comes to this, I usually try to pay at the door if the competition allows it. Have lost entries last week for Eastern but it was last min cancellation so understand. But I usually pay for comps ahead of time only if I HAVE to..

[DanceMentor]

I am pretty bad when it comes to this, I usually try to pay at the door if the competition allows it. Have lost entries last week for Eastern but it was last min cancellation so understand. But I usually pay for comps ahead of time only if I HAVE to..

Yes, I have no problem registering, but if there is an option to wait to pay, this will increase the chances that I will register in the future.

[White Chacha]

I bet it makes it really hard to run a comp without any advance idea of who's actually going to show up. Or at least how much money you'll be able to take in.

[JANATHOME]

I guess it can go both ways. Often as we are coming up on a compeition I feel like we just are not ready and I think if I had not paid in advance (and was not flying to the event) I may of made the decision to not go.

When I do register in advance it also is like a clock ticking in my head that I now has "x" amount of weeks of practice left and we become more aggresive with our practice sessions.

I did once have to cancel due to a family illlness and never thought to request that my fees go into a amateur scholarship pool... that was a great idea. I hope they honor your request.

[Chris Stratton]

If an organizer feels they can't afford outright cancellations/refunds, how about offering an option to apply the paid amount towards registration at the same competition the next year (or another competition the organizer owns).

Obviously that would be for entry fees alone; hotel and meal payments might have different terms.

[etp777]

Chris, I know our FA regionals organizer has done that for special cases here before. not sure what exact policy is, but one lady had couple deaths in family so had funeral that weekend. organizer let her apply the fees to next comp run by them

[Laura]

I bet it makes it really hard to run a comp without any advance idea of who's actually going to show up. Or at least how much money you'll be able to take in.
Yes. It makes it really hard to schedule and run the comp.

But the organizers who accept late entries and payment on a completely flexible basis have brought this on themselves -- so many people know they can enter late and still get in, or know they can pay late, there is rarely anything that would induce the competitor to do things on time.

Now, at the Amateur-only comps I help run, we have a late registration fee, an even bigger walk-in registration fee, and also have a pro-rated -- based on how long before the event you let us know -- "no questions asked" cancellation policy. People can and do get their stuff in on time, especially since a few times we have told people NO and/or put them on a waiting list to get the events they want.

[DanceMentor]

Yes. It makes it really hard to schedule and run the comp.

But the organizers who accept late entries and payment on a completely flexible basis have brought this on themselves -- so many people know they can enter late and still get in, or know they can pay late, there is rarely anything that would induce the competitor to do things on time.

Now, at the Amateur-only comps I help run, we have a late registration fee, an even bigger walk-in registration fee, and also have a pro-rated -- based on how long before the event you let us know -- "no questions asked" cancellation policy. People can and do get their stuff in on time, especially since a few times we have told people NO and/or put them on a waiting list to get the events they want.

I would not have a problem with paying a little bit more for entering late. But if entering early and not having the assurance I could get a refund in the case of unforeseen illness or similar would be a big risk, especially if I am spending a lot of money at the competition.

If you think about it, if people registered early (but didn't pay early), there would be a pretty standard percentage of people that canceled (5-12% I would expect). It's not like you are going to have 50% canceling. An organizer could still grant refunds, and still have a pretty good idea or how much will come in.

Most people would not mind paying a processing fee like $25 for canceling at the last minute. But if this is done on a percentage basis, there is going to be a difference in the amount depending on entries. If someone enters 100 heats, they would stand to lose much more than someone that entered only 5 heats. In either case, being ill or having a death in the family or losing their job or having their house foreclosed, they may have a legitimate reason to not attend the comp without having to pay an excessive penalty.

I know a number of airlines offer cancellation insurance for a little extra, and nearly all of them allow for a doctor's note.

[White Chacha]

...I know a number of airlines offer cancellation insurance for a little extra, and nearly all of them allow for a doctor's note.

I requested a special fare from an airline to attend my step father's funeral. They went as far as contacting the mortuary to confirm the death. I don't expect dancers would subject themselves to that level of scrutiny to retrieve registration fees...

I'm just saying there's a lot of room here for abuse, and I've been on both sides of the problem. But I've no experience with pro-am comps.

[singndance]

I know a number of airlines offer cancellation insurance for a little extra, and nearly all of them allow for a doctor's note.

I asked about insurance at my dance studio, and they looked at me like I was crazy. But if you dance a significant number of heats, the fees add up, and I would be happy to consider insurance. Especially when you have kids and elderly parents and a demanding job, not to mention risk of injury or sickness, a lot of things could happen that would force you to have to cancel on a competition.

[Warren J. Dew]

Now, at the Amateur-only comps I help run, we have a late registration fee, an even bigger walk-in registration fee, and also have a pro-rated -- based on how long before the event you let us know -- "no questions asked" cancellation policy. People can and do get their stuff in on time, especially since a few times we have told people NO and/or put them on a waiting list to get the events they want.

Yes. Late fees are my preferred way of encouraging people to enter on time or early. They can take a lot of enforcement until people get used to them, though.

[Larinda McRaven]

I had a student, just last week, bail on a competition dues to a last minute work trip. At one week before the comp I knew we would never get his money back. So what I did instead was turn all of his entries over to another student. The organizer did not loose out on money or entries. The cancelling students got his refund from the new student that took the entries. Everyone was happy.

[etp777]

Never thought of that option, but that's great Larinda. Heh, wonder if you could buy the en tries at a discount. Just need to get one of pro's students to have a work trip come up now, that'll be how I save money on my dancing this year. discounted comps. ;)

[Laura]

So what I did instead was turn all of his entries over to another student.
I have seen this done -- and in fact have been the person doing the work in the competition computer to make it happen for people.

[reb]

We have experienced some comps / organizers over the years who refunded our entries when we were unable to go - and you can imagine how impressed we were - and still appreciate.

[QPO]

not sure what happens in our neck of the woods, I must read the fine print. I wont enter until the deadline.....Our first comp is coming up in April and the registration closes on the 8th March and that is when it will be put in. I would like to see that they can give some allowance for people who can provide a doctors certificate. But it cost money to run these events and people canceling out can have a huge impact on the running..so it is a dilemma.

[ChaChaMama]

If an organizer feels they can't afford outright cancellations/refunds, how about offering an option to apply the paid amount towards registration at the same competition the next year (or another competition the organizer owns).

Obviously that would be for entry fees alone; hotel and meal payments might have different terms.


I had a very good experience with this...well, to the extent that one's partner being very sick can be described as a "good experience." :rolleyes:

CCP and I were going to compete at Capital Dancesport a few years back, but then CCP contracted Lyme disease. He (temporarily!) had bell's palsy, which paralyzes the side of your face. He got over that before the comp, but he was in very ragged shape. Either the drugs or the disease also made him very tired.

I contacted John DePalma, and asked if we could have a credit for the next year, and he said yes. He was extremely nice about it. Classy and an intelligent business move. In addition to going back the next year to use our credit, I try to go back to that comp when I can because I know it is run by good people.

Another time, we had to scratch a different comp the day of as CCP had an upper respiratory infection and could barely breathe. We did one general dance the night before--a west coast--and he was gasping and practically on the verge of an asthma attack. I didn't ask for a refund or credit because the event was already in progress and they seemed busy enough without having to deal with my problems. (Plus it was a USA Dance comp, and I feel like they need my money.)

[elisedance]

From reading the abofe it seems the competition has to ballance the benefit of keeping the money and alienating the client versus loosing the money and getting a client for life (not to mention the positive (or negative) publicity on sites such as this.

Perhaps we should have a star rating for the comps - as to how well we felt we were treated. It would be nice to give something back....

[DanceMentor]

From reading the abofe it seems the competition has to ballance the benefit of keeping the money and alienating the client versus loosing the money and getting a client for life (not to mention the positive (or negative) publicity on sites such as this.

Perhaps we should have a star rating for the comps - as to how well we felt we were treated. It would be nice to give something back....

It would be good to have something like a survey where different aspects like venue, organization, music, etc. can be ranked.

If a competition states there are no refunds (period), I wonder how many people won't even bother asking, even if they have a good reason for missing. Also, if someone feels they are treated unfairly at a competition, it would be nice to have a governing body can appeal to, and with the assurance that someone other than the person they paid can mediate.

It also seems to me that if there are some reasons that considered legitimate for cancellation, those reasons should be stated on the website or entry forms.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I know 2 people who had to bail out of OSB for health reasons. Both got their refunds.

[fascination]

well I think one also has to consider that each organizer is in a different position financially to be flexible and it doesn't mean they are less caring...just less solvent

[latingal]

In pro-am the entry fees can get ridiculous. If your pro gets injured right prior to the event, you may be out of hundreds of dollars (at one recent comp I paid entry fees of around $500 for one set of single dances and one scholarship).

Some comps are responsive to helping you resolve the issue, some are not. You just have to pray that you get the right one I guess. And also vote with your wallet the next year....

[reb]

I know 2 people who had to bail out of OSB for health reasons. Both got their refunds.

Ditto. Can't say enough good about Sam.

[latervet1]

I had to bail on an AM comp cuz i broke my collarbone 2 days before. got full refund with a copy of the ER report.

[lemonade]

It seems that a credit for the coming year is very fair. Then the comp does snot suffer and the dance can look forward to that comp. Do some comps not offer this as standard? Sorrry I am not familiar with them as many here are.

[cornutt]

From reading the abofe it seems the competition has to ballance the benefit of keeping the money and alienating the client versus loosing the money and getting a client for life (not to mention the positive (or negative) publicity on sites such as this.


Right, it's always a juggling act. I've had a few glimpses at what is involved in comp promoting. One of the considerations is that many comps have expenses that have to be paid in advance, the room fee and catering being two big ones. Some hotels will give an organizer free use of a ballroom provided that they commit to a block of rooms a certain time in advance. So the promoter needs the entries early in order to guarantee the rooms, and if a competitor pulls out, the promoter is stuck paying for that person's room. There's also things like paying the airfares for the event officials. And sanctioning fees usually have to be paid at the time the event is listed on the sanctioning body's calendar, which may be as much as a year in advance.

Also, in marketing there's the old adage that things that are free are not valued by the people who receive them. If there is no payment required at the time the entry is filed, cancellations may be very high; then again, they may not, but it's the uncertainty that makes the organizer's life difficult. Then again, even full payment in advance with no refunds doesn't solve all problems, and it tends to cause ill will, as has been discussed on this thread. If I were running a comp, the approach I might take is to require a non-refundable but relatively small deposit (like about $100) at the time the entry is filed. That would weed out most of the maybes and non-serious entries. Even for a small comp, the deposit receipts should be enough, or close to it, to cover the before-the-event bills. Then, full payment would be required maybe 3 days prior, with some kind of late fee for payments after that. And if some late emergency prevented a competitor from dancing, I would at least offer a full credit towards next year's event.

[Laura]

So the promoter needs the entries early in order to guarantee the rooms, and if a competitor pulls out, the promoter is stuck paying for that person's room.
Yes, I've seen that happen.