Difference between 1 and 5

[squirrel]

Ok, guys, let's see who can explain something to me...

I dance ON 1... Don't really hear the ON 2 - I mean, it seems off beat to me :).

Still, can you define how you make the difference between 1 and 5? What is the musical definition of this difference? How do I identify 1 from 5? What instruments differentiate them?

[brujo]

There is really no instrument differenciating them.

The 1 marks the starting point in everything. So if you are following the vocalist ( most of them except a few that start on 3 ), the 1 will be where the phrase starts. All the choruses also come in on the 1. The instruments that fade in come in and out on the one.

The way I mark the 1 is to wait for the different instruments to come in. The cowbell, the horns, the timbales, guiro and maraca all come in on the 1.

It is easier if you speak spanish because you can make the logical distinction between the beginning of a verse and just use that as the marker for the one, but there is a distint verbal difference when you are listening for the one and the 5, you can hear this if you just get a friend that knows the 1 from the 5 and ask him / her to clap it together with you to a song, so clap 8 times, emphasising the 1st one and trying to hear what makes them different. I don't find that I need the 5, ever.

[squirrel]

thanks brujo... I didn't really understand... maybe somebody who know the difference... a friend... if I can find one... I have a friend who plays guitar and loves salsa music... even her cannot make the difference...she can hear the clave though...:)

[Flat Shoes]

Is there a lot of difference between salsa music and other kinds of music in 4/4 time on this? Anyway, I can only speak from my general knowledge about music and my experience from dancing to jazz/swing music.

Defining where the one is in the music is really difficult. It can be easy enough to hear, but trying to descibre it. It's kind of like describing how you keep balance on a bicycle. Try it, and you'll understand. :twisted:

What you do have, at least in swing, is the steady one-two beat. It is quite easy to tell the odd beats from the even beats. But when are you on one, three, five and seven?

I think(!) there are several factors playing a role here. And I think they appear in various degrees in different songs. Beacuse I can't think of a single element that is a dead giveaway. You cannot listen to when the singer or certain instruments starts, cause this will often vary from song to song and from one eight to the next eight. You have the muscial shcemas, for example a typical swing schema is AABA, where each letter is describing two bars (an eight). This means that one eight (with some variations) are played two times, a different eight is played and the first eight is played again. This structures the music and is a very good indication, however there does not have to be a clear definition between two A's or the transition from A to B or back to A.

Within each eight there may also be som indications, like the tension of the music is building throughout the eight and released at the end, like the music is sort of inhaling and the exhaling at the end and preparing for the next eight. A common way this is underlined by the rythm (in jazz) is the the drums going bom-tcha, bom-tcha, bom-tcha, bom-tchtcha. The syncopation at the end of the eight is sort of marking the end of it, preparing for the next. There are of course several ways the rythm section can do similiar things. You may have different clues in Salsa.

All in all, I think the brain just learns a lot of this small signatures and put them together to figure out where in the music you are at a certain time. I don't think there is a single element in the music alone, but just the brain using its experience to organize all the small clues together to give us the feeling of where 'one' is in the music. 8)

I know, when I'm dancing, that this happens automagically and it's very seldom these days that I get lost and need to actively listen to the music to find the rythm again.

Hope this non-salsa perspective was of any help :wink:

[youngsta]

No Flat Shoes, when I hear RnB, House, Hip-Hop, or Salsa in 4/4 timing the structure of the songs are almost identical to me. The big difference between Salsa and the rest are la clave patterns, other than that I hear everything the same. That's what made the timing element of the dance very easy for me. As a House DJ that has been beatmixing for years I can tell what count a phrase is on instantly, just wish I could explain it to help answer the question. The only info that I can give that may help you is that since all Salsa music is played in 4/4 time there are 4 beats to a measure of music. There really isn't a '5' per say because our basic step is executed over 2 measures of music (so the '5' is really 1, just of the second measure) it's called a “dancer’s measure”.

[squirrel]

Yes Youngsta, I can relate to what you say! I have the same opinion! See, I think 1 and 5 are the same, only that we use different feet when dancing. I might be terribly wrong, as I've heard of "dancing on 5"...

Any other opinions?

[salsachinita]

I've heard of "dancing on 5"...

Me too, from a recently arrived Venezuelan, so it should be quite correct. I took it as 'starting on a different phrase of the music' :? .......

Having said that, I've found their dancing a bit too 'quick' (as opposed to typical Cuban, who are characteristically 'slow'), even when you know that they are on beat.

We need experts here. Boriken...? Brujo....? Paleo.....? Looyenyeo......?

Anyone else?

[youngsta]

What I'm saying is that muscially there is no 5. It's 4/4 music so there are only 4 beats to a measure. Salsa dance wise there is a 5 because we dance over two measures of music (hence the 8 count). So in reality if you dance on 5 it just means you're breaking on the 1 of the second measure in the 'dancers measure'.

[Sabor]

Still, can you define how you make the difference between 1 and 5?

just like the difference bewtween 2 and 6 :wink: LOL just teasing

its just a different phrasing between the first and second set of 4 Squirrel.. as Youngsta said.. its a dance measure perception..

.. but i advise u to keep practicing On2 because it is such a wonderful and different feeling once u get thru.. its like u opened another door in the world of salsa full of new possibilities! :P

[Pacion]

Sabor, I don't quite understand. Can you do us a video clip please? :roll: :twisted: :lol:

[Haz]

Sabor, I don't quite understand. Can you do us a video clip please? :roll: :twisted: :lol:

He already owes me a video of dancing on 2 (or 4) to "(Let Me Be Your) Teddy Bear". *humz* 8)

[Vin]

I couldn't tell you for sure what the difference is, but I am sure there is one. I often feel myself off-time and the only problem is that I am dancing on the 5 rather than the one. Once I get back to the other half of the music I feel fine.
It seems to me that the first half of the often octet rises in pitch while the second half tends to lower in pitch.

[voilsb]

Well, there are definite musical differences between 1 and 5 in salsa and swing, and probably in many other styles of music, too. Now, as to how those are notated or musically described, when there's no 5 in 4/4 music, I don't know. Probably like there's a definite difference in sound/feel to the seventh measure in an eight measure phrase than the first measure.

The clave beat stretches over two measures, so it's quite easy to distinguish the first and second measure in a mini-phrase in salsa if you learn to listen to it. salsarhythms has a nice thread "The Best Damn Clave Explanation. Period. (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=469)" here that provides a link to his webpage about the clave. There's also a file for the conga beat. From reading his page and listening to these two samples, I'd actually recommend paying for his salsa training course from http://www.salsa-rhythms.com/. I can't say I've done it yet ('cause I'm poor), but I think I will once I can. It never hurts to understand the music better.


The two files are:
Clave: http://www.salsa-rhythms.com/downloads/track12.mp3
Conga: http://www.salsa-rhythms.com/downloads/track02.mp3



(edited to correct some information)

[salsaForfun]

thanks brujo... I didn't really understand... maybe somebody who know the difference... a friend... if I can find one... I have a friend who plays guitar and loves salsa music... even her cannot make the difference...she can hear the clave though...:)

Well if u can hear the clave or better you can feel it (since you do not hear it the most of time) the marking the "difference" is obvious since on 3,2 clave the clave "hits" only the 1 and on the 2,3 clave it hits only the 5. So the clave never hit both in an 8 count. The rare case of "clave changing" is another topic.

As already stated by other before a good point is definitively recognizing the beginning of the music phrase. So u get than the one. And knowing the end of the music phrase you get then the tempo, so you can count to get or feel where the 5 is.

[delamusica]

What I'm saying is that muscially there is no 5. It's 4/4 music so there are only 4 beats to a measure. Salsa dance wise there is a 5 because we dance over two measures of music (hence the 8 count). So in reality if you dance on 5 it just means you're breaking on the 1 of the second measure in the 'dancers measure'.

Actually, musically there is a very, very important difference between one and five. While there are only four beats to a measure, there are almost always 8 beats to a phrase in 4/4 music. The time signature that it's written in, with four beats to a group, is completely arbitrary (ex, it could be two measures of 8/8, one measure of 8/4, four measures of 2/4, etc, if that means anything to anybody) - you HEAR it as eight beats.

Just like there is a front half and a back half to a salsa basic, there is a front half and a back half to a musical phrase. If a band were to play each bar as its own group, the music would sound choppy and amateur. (3)Like . . . (123)talking to . . . (123)someone who . . . (123)paused at the . . . (123)middle of . . . (123)ev-e-ry . . . (1-2)phrase.
instead of being
(6)Like . . . (123456) talking to someone who . . . (123456) paused at the ending of . . . (1234-5) ev-e-ry phrase. (if we were talking about 3/4 :))

while each measure is technically the same (back to 4/4), and both 1 and 5 carry accents, there is more stress on the 1 as it is the beginning of the phrase/sentence.

[youngsta]

Actually, musically there is a very, very important difference between one and five. While there are only four beats to a measure, there are almost always 8 beats to a phrase in 4/4 music. The time signature that it's written in, with four beats to a group, is completely arbitrary (ex, it could be two measures of 8/8, one measure of 8/4, four measures of 2/4, etc, if that means anything to anybody) - you HEAR it as eight beats.
See that's why I didn't want to even get into this subject, it's just too complex. If you wanna be real about it, phrases in 4/4 music can be of ANY multiple of 4. In House you'll see phrases of 16 and 32 very often. In Salsa most phrases seem to be 8. So yes there definitely is a difference between the 1 and the 5 when you hear it. But if you were to count it like some beginning music students (1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4) you'd realize that the '5' is just the 1 of the second phrase. Just trying to give a simple point of reference, not saying they are audibly the same.

[Sabor]

the difference betw. 1 and 5??? :shock: .. well .. 4 of course!.. i always thought i 'd make a famous mathematician :lol: :lol:

[salsachinita]

the difference betw. 1 and 5??? :shock: .. well .. 4 of course!.. i always thought i 'd make a famous mathematician :lol: :lol: :uplaugh: :uplaugh: :uplaugh:

:notworth: Simple question......simple answer. Sabor :nope:

[lundasalsa]

The time signature that it's written in, with four beats to a group, is completely arbitrary (ex, it could be two measures of 8/8, one measure of 8/4, four measures of 2/4, etc, if that means anything to anybody) - you HEAR it as eight beats.

When I was studying some music theory (not professionally), I learned that 8/4 and 8/8 are irregular signatures, to be played as 2+3+3, 3+3+2, or 3+2+3. It's like a 6/8, which is always played as 3+3, although you could mathematically interpret it as 2+2+2. So, now I wonder, is salsa music actually ever written in an 8/4 time signature?

[Sabor]

When I was studying some music theory (not professionally), I learned that 8/4 and 8/8 are irregular signatures, to be played as 2+3+3, 3+3+2, or 3+2+3. It's like a 6/8, which is always played as 3+3, although you could mathematically interpret it as 2+2+2. So, now I wonder, is salsa music actually ever written in an 8/4 time signature?


oooooh my.. it looks like i'm gona have to resort to calculus now.. or was it algebra.. hmmm :lol:

[salsachinita]

:lol: Will you guys quit calculating and just show me instead....? :lol:

*SC getting a headache just trying to decode it all :oops: :oops: *

[lundasalsa]

:lol: Will you guys quit calculating and just show me instead....? :lol:

Like this? :)

__ ______ _____ |
8 | | | | | | | | |
8 * * * * * * * * |
doo de dee de de dee de de

________ | ________ |
4 | | | | | | | | | |
8 * * * * | * * * * |
doo de dee de doo de dee de


Anyway, in some salsa songs there are so many rhythms being played simultaneously that I can't figure out the beat. I made the mistake a few times to ask my partner whether she could hear the beat. Whether she was correct or not, the helpfully chanted 123,567 confused me even more. :? And then it is of course impossible for me to simply ignore the beat and have fun leading figures. :(

[borikensalsero]

Out of all the things that I can say, I'll keep it simple. Since you already know where the bar begins now, don't count but feel which one builds up the most and then explodes into the 1 or the 5. The one that feels like the music builds up the strongest then suddenly all instruments meet. Is the one.

To make sure, usually wait for the chorus to start singing. They'll usually start on the one, although you can hear then start on the 5, 6, 8, etc.

You can also check the piano play, you'll hear the piano play really fast tin tin, TAN on the one....

Hope that little bit helps.

[tj]

Out of all the things that I can say, I'll keep it simple. Since you already know where the bar begins now, don't count but feel which one builds up the most and then explodes into the 1 or the 5. The one that feels like the music builds up the strongest then suddenly all instruments meet. Is the one.


Finally - a clear concise description!

Isn't it odd how hard it can be to describe so much of dancing into words? Everything from moves, styling, and syncopations to music, music interpretation, rhythms, and instruments.

I think that's what's great about dancing - that we can take it in such an intellectual way, but at the same time, we can all relate to what we enjoy about it without being able to put it into words.