Do followers get easily bored and lose awareness?

[revolution]

Hi,

Wondering if followers are easily bored, and what needs to be done to keep their awareness sharp. Are fancy figures required to keep them guessing and hence help them be more aware? Or would a simple, sharp, expressive, and connected walk be enough to keep the women aware and expressive?

--
Rev

[Andira]

Hi,

Wondering if followers are easily bored, and what needs to be done to keep their awareness sharp. Are fancy figures required to keep them guessing and hence help them be more aware? Or would a simple, sharp, expressive, and connected walk be enough to keep the women aware and expressive?

--
Rev

During one of my four beginner courses - I have taken four, two in each role - the teachers told us to dance a song by standing still and listening to the music antil we could not stop ourselves from taking a step, standing still and listening to the music antil we could not stop ourselves from taking a step, standing still and listening to the music until we could not stop ourselves from taking a step. We how led in this dance probably felt a bit silly, most of us, but did our best to occasionally take a step where the music kind of asked for it. Afterwards, the teachers asked the followers - but not the leaders! - how they had liked the dance. Of the women who opened their mouths, everyone thought it had been fantastic, best tango ever.

Whatever the followers were here, they were not bored.

[bastet]

Hi,

Wondering if followers are easily bored, and what needs to be done to keep their awareness sharp. Are fancy figures required to keep them guessing and hence help them be more aware? Or would a simple, sharp, expressive, and connected walk be enough to keep the women aware and expressive?

--
Rev

Mercy- this one's bound to open a can of worms...I can only say for myself, fancy figures are not required- but variety is.

A nice embrace, good relaxed and comfortable connection, musicality I can recognize and work with, a confident and clear lead and willingness to play generally make for a good dance. The willingness to play usually inspires creativity and variation in movement, which I think IS a requirement. Lots of fancy figures do not make up for understanding how to vary tempo and dynamics of simpler figures, even something as "simple" as the walk. A fancy move now and then is nice (which could even be something quite small and tricky) escpically if I dance a lot with the person, but is by no means the way I measure a dance. It more often puts me off.

As one of my main teachers said (and he is a very well know person)- it would be next to impossible to make an entire tanda of walking expressive enough even for him to keep someone thoroughly engaged, but complexity is definitely not the key.

Yesterday in fact I had a dance with a very promising beginner, using only walking, weight changes and side steps, and applying variations in them in physical dynamic and tempo- it was quite a nice dance!

Last week we demo'd a dance using only the first two months of material we use for beginners which includes 2 basic turns, rock steps , outside partner and simple walking syncopations and changes in dynamic or tempo. It was very engaging.

[elisedance]

at least as a non-AT follower, good following actually needs some loss of awareness - you need to let the man dance almost through you as if your brain has been taken out of hte loop - there is not the time to react to a lead with conscious calculations. OTOH, adding your own element of dancing 'selling' the step it certainly does help to have some variety. I'd be interested to hear if its the same for AT...

[bastet]

at least as a non-AT follower, good following actually needs some loss of awareness - you need to let the man dance almost through you as if your brain has been taken out of hte loop - there is not the time to react to a lead with conscious calculations. OTOH, adding your own element of dancing 'selling' the step it certainly does help to have some variety. I'd be interested to hear if its the same for AT...

Not sure- I haven't done ballroom in years, but I find that I need to remain constantly engaged and in "listening" mode to the leader. Active relaxation, not anticipating movement, but always being aware and ready for any possibility.

So I'm not sure how this plays in to what you do. I don't memorize patterns or figures or motions so in that sense I turn off my brain from thinking about whatever "figures" the leader has in his head for a song, but I try to understand how the lead for differnt things feels, and let my body react to the various sensations in an active fashion. I don't expect a lead to have to push me around like furniture, because I am always being aware of our movement and relation and reacting to it.

[Ampster]

Hi,

Wondering if followers are easily bored, and what needs to be done to keep their awareness sharp. Are fancy figures required to keep them guessing and hence help them be more aware? Or would a simple, sharp, expressive, and connected walk be enough to keep the women aware and expressive?

--
Rev

My perspective from what my follows tell me. Also, from my experience as I try to follow also.

No, fancy figures are not required. As a matter of fact, they become detrimental because they are distracting. Sometimes, you knock your partner out of her center of balance, and now, its dangerous for her. In any case, it is distracting and it breaks the tango connection. Your partner can't wait for the tanda to end.

Doing fancy stuff only works if you can lead it well enough that it is smooth, and your partner, does NOT know how to do it, but she can read your lead well enough to follow without prodding, pushing, pulling. If you're not at that level, don't do it.

A simple, sharp, expressive, synchopated and in-tune walk will work. IF you know how to walk.

In AT, your partner needs to be confident enough that you know what your doing, so she can let go, and not think. If your doing something to distract this "Zen-like" state, then you'll bore her.

I've had some truly magical dances before where the ONLY thing we did was walk.

Old threads of mine for your reference:

Don't impress her with your fancy steps! Impress her with your... (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=20204)

"The Walk" in AT (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=26250)

[elisedance]

Not sure- I haven't done ballroom in years, but I find that I need to remain constantly engaged and in "listening" mode to the leader. Active relaxation, not anticipating movement, but always being aware and ready for any possibility.

So I'm not sure how this plays in to what you do. I don't memorize patterns or figures or motions so in that sense I turn off my brain from thinking about whatever "figures" the leader has in his head for a song, but I try to understand how the lead for differnt things feels, and let my body react to the various sensations in an active fashion. I don't expect a lead to have to push me around like furniture, because I am always being aware of our movement and relation and reacting to it.


Thats actually sounds rather similar - 'active awareness' is a pretty good way to put it. I try not to learn routines either but in ballroom they are inevitable to some extent and its hard not to learn them in time. Still, you can't rely on them because there are always surprises that cause you to go off in a new direction and step sequence.

[revolution]

During one of my four beginner courses - I have taken four, two in each role - the teachers told us to dance a song by standing still and listening to the music antil we could not stop ourselves from taking a step, standing still and listening to the music antil we could not stop ourselves from taking a step, standing still and listening to the music until we could not stop ourselves from taking a step. We how led in this dance probably felt a bit silly, most of us, but did our best to occasionally take a step where the music kind of asked for it. Afterwards, the teachers asked the followers - but not the leaders! - how they had liked the dance. Of the women who opened their mouths, everyone thought it had been fantastic, best tango ever.

Whatever the followers were here, they were not bored.

To me it sounds like music triggering emotion which is translated into intention then movement. Meaningful emotion, coming deep within. Emotion is a huge part of AT, but can you feel your partners emotion? Or just the physical reaction (movement) to the emotion that is felt? If the emotion is followed it generates convincing and passionate steps. Perhaps this is enough to help the woman with her awareness, while she feels a range of her own emotions and responds with physical action.

willingness to play generally make for a good dance
I really like that, a good way to keep the follower enganged. As in communication listening, and responding, taking turns. I think I need to listen more to my partner to pick up the subtle cueus and build on that.

at least as a non-AT follower, good following actually needs some loss of awareness - you need to let the man dance almost through you as if your brain has been taken out of hte loop - there is not the time to react to a lead with conscious calculations. OTOH, adding your own element of dancing 'selling' the step it certainly does help to have some variety. I'd be interested to hear if its the same for AT...

I don't have much experience following, but I think in AT its the opposite. The more awareness the better the dance. It's a two way communication, where one partner inspires the other through the physical expression of their emotions.

-rev

[Peaches]

Mercy- this one's bound to open a can of worms...I can only say for myself, fancy figures are not required- but variety is.

A nice embrace, good relaxed and comfortable connection, musicality I can recognize and work with, a confident and clear lead and willingness to play generally make for a good dance. The willingness to play usually inspires creativity and variation in movement, which I think IS a requirement. Lots of fancy figures do not make up for understanding how to vary tempo and dynamics of simpler figures, even something as "simple" as the walk. A fancy move now and then is nice (which could even be something quite small and tricky) escpically if I dance a lot with the person, but is by no means the way I measure a dance. It more often puts me off.

As one of my main teachers said (and he is a very well know person)- it would be next to impossible to make an entire tanda of walking expressive enough even for him to keep someone thoroughly engaged, but complexity is definitely not the key.

Yesterday in fact I had a dance with a very promising beginner, using only walking, weight changes and side steps, and applying variations in them in physical dynamic and tempo- it was quite a nice dance!

Last week we demo'd a dance using only the first two months of material we use for beginners which includes 2 basic turns, rock steps , outside partner and simple walking syncopations and changes in dynamic or tempo. It was very engaging.Yup. Exactly. Don't have anything more to add to this.

[Peaches]

To me it sounds like music triggering emotion which is translated into intention then movement. Meaningful emotion, coming deep within. Emotion is a huge part of AT, but can you feel your partners emotion? Or just the physical reaction (movement) to the emotion that is felt? If the emotion is followed it generates convincing and passionate steps. Perhaps this is enough to help the woman with her awareness, while she feels a range of her own emotions and responds with physical action.

[...snip...]

I don't have much experience following, but I think in AT its the opposite. The more awareness the better the dance. It's a two way communication, where one partner inspires the other through the physical expression of their emotions.

-rev
Disagree.

At least personally, emotion doesn't have a lot to do with dancing. I can relate to the idea of just having to take a step because you are moved to do so, but it's not an emotional thing. It's more of a "how can anyone possibly sit/stand still when there's good music on that just makes you want to get up and MOVE!!!" sort of thing.

I don't sense emotion from my partner, generally. I feel the movement in his body, and feel his take on the music and react to that, using my own reaction to the music.

As for the last part of your post, I've got to disagree again. What Elise calls "active awareness," and Bastet calls "active relaxation," is exactly what I strive for. I always aim to take my mind out of the loop, and let my body feel the music, and my partner, and the room, and to just respond. When I'm actively thinking about following, it's never a very good dance--either because I've got to be thinking in order to figure out the lead (which is never pleasant), or because I can't get out of my head enough to be in the moment and just dance.

[bastet]

To me it sounds like music triggering emotion which is translated into intention then movement. Meaningful emotion, coming deep within. Emotion is a huge part of AT, but can you feel your partners emotion? Or just the physical reaction (movement) to the emotion that is felt? If the emotion is followed it generates convincing and passionate steps. Perhaps this is enough to help the woman with her awareness, while she feels a range of her own emotions and responds with physical action.


I really like that, a good way to keep the follower enganged. As in communication listening, and responding, taking turns. I think I need to listen more to my partner to pick up the subtle cueus and build on that.



I don't have much experience following, but I think in AT its the opposite. The more awareness the better the dance. It's a two way communication, where one partner inspires the other through the physical expression of their emotions.

-rev


I could see how you can look at it both ways. There is a part of the brain I try not to use (the anticipation part ;)) while dancing. Since for me, every step has the potential of being the last step, I try not to think in terms of patterns, just feeling the movement of the lead. And every tiemn a step is lead, the are multiple possibilites, so I feel I have to be both tuned out (to patterns) and extremely tuned in, conscious and actively aware of the leader.

[bastet]

Hi,

Wondering if followers are easily bored, and what needs to be done to keep their awareness sharp. Are fancy figures required to keep them guessing and hence help them be more aware? Or would a simple, sharp, expressive, and connected walk be enough to keep the women aware and expressive?

--
Rev

I will say one other thing- I guess it kind of goes in line with the other things that make a good, connected and engaged dance for me- is a leader who is able to incorporate his whole body in to the motions, but this may be a personal preference. So things like using a gentle contrabody walking (generated through the spine not the shoulders) I think encourages relaxation in the follow which can enhance the dance...some follows just won't go there and some leaders also...but one can only try... almost every leader I try to initiate this with will respond in kind...but it has to be a subtle suggestion.

[Andira]

Are fancy figures required to keep them guessing and hence help them be more aware?

Some people already said it, although in other words. Still: guessing is exactly what you don't want to do, and shouldn't do. I follower who guesses on steps and moves is a far worse problem than a follower who is unattentive.

[elisedance]

I don't have much experience following, but I think in AT its the opposite. The more awareness the better the dance. It's a two way communication, where one partner inspires the other through the physical expression of their emotions.

-rev

Do you think the woman can really think that fast - mean to feel the lead and decide what to do? Somehow I don't - but as said I don't do AT - I would have thought that it is one step harder (following wise at least) than ballroom cause the actions are so fast and often so precise.

[Peaches]

Do you think the woman can really think that fast - mean to feel the lead and decide what to do? Somehow I don't - but as said I don't do AT - I would have thought that it is one step harder (following wise at least) than ballroom cause the actions are so fast and often so precise.God knows I can't think that fast--dancing or otherwise, LOL.

I don't know that it's any more or less hard than following in ballroom. (Although I don't dance BR, so take that with a massive grain of salt. ;) ) Nor do I really think it's all that more precise. It's just different--a different way of moving, a different mindset to following. For me, at least. Personally, I think AT (following and otherwise) is so much easier than BR.

[bastet]

Do you think the woman can really think that fast - mean to feel the lead and decide what to do? Somehow I don't - but as said I don't do AT - I would have thought that it is one step harder (following wise at least) than ballroom cause the actions are so fast and often so precise.

Well- if you are talking about the stage tango you see with lots of fancy lifts and kicks, even plenty of that can be led and followed...but if we are talking about social dancing, you aren't likely to meet up with lifts (though I have had those led spontaneously to me and been fine and well enough prepared in my reactions for it). Ganchos have specific leads, so do boleos, so does every other element of tango that when lead well and clearly, generally lead to exactly that result.

There is another element that may or may not apply, and that is also responsiveness of the leader. A really tuned in leader will easily be aware of where his follower's axis is, and should something happen he didn't intend, will be able to take it and make something else. That's also part of the dance, the leader's are generally not encouraged to force a movment through that is not working and bluster their way through whatever they may have planned, but also be responsive and work with what the results of the lead. Most teachers I know of discourage it thoroughly. The leader invites, the follow interprets. The more clear the lead, the more likely the leader will end up with the interpretation he is expecting...a messy, unclear lead can feel like a lot of very simialar things to a follower...and most follows in a social situation will interpret to their best ability...I cetainly don't encourage people to go out social dancing and be stumps on a log unless they get a perfect lead, it's a process and we all do our best to work with each other.

[Andira]

I can not speak for higher levels, but on lower levels I think attention is rewarded with attention. I.e. be attentive to her and to the music, and she will be attentive back. Attention is not expressed with lots of fancy moves, just make sure to be there.

Regarding the one step at the time with long pauses inbetween-dance, I think several things were happening. Beginners in japanese bow and arrow (kyudo) are only allowed to have one arrow at the time, simply because their attention is disturbed by the second arrow. They can only concentrate on one arrow at the time - and in this dance, the leaders only had one step at the time to focus on. Probably these were a collection of the most well-led steps the followers experienced during this course.

It was a great lesson in "less is more". On lower levels most (all?) leaders focus way to much on different steps and patterns, to the degree of almost forgetting about their follower. Yes, I think just caminata should be enough to keep a follower interested. A more advanced follower will need more varied caminata, I guess. A simple step can be made with so many different levels of energy.

[Steve Pastor]

Originally Posted by elisedance http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=670999#post670999)
Do you think the woman can really think that fast - mean to feel the lead and decide what to do? Somehow I don't - but as said I don't do AT - I would have thought that it is one step harder (following wise at least) than ballroom cause the actions are so fast and often so precise.
God knows I can't think that fast--dancing or otherwise, LOL.

Read recently about the "lag time" between playing a note and having the the sound reach your ear, then your brain. The upshot was that unless you learn to play an instrument well enough to have the "lower", non thinking, subconscious level of the brain be in control, you can't play at a "normal" speed.
Ditto for dancing.
If there is an actual "wait for response" in the "invite" paradigm it would have to be at a very, very short interval of time. I think the "invite" then follow the response model is responsible for many people dancing out of time to the music.
As several people have pointed out (I think), it's more of a continuous processing of information. And, it has to happen faster than is possible using conscious decision making - "thinking".
Thus the need to practice, practice.
Once you have things internalized, you can begin to think things like, the next time he does that I'm going to surprise him with...

[Gssh]

Follwoing the OP over the last few threads i feel a theme emerging - it is about boundaries between the follower and leader, dominance of the leader, keeping the follower aware and engaged. I am not sure if i am reading too much into this, but it taps into a issue something i have been thinking about for a while, and that i have not seen emphasized in teaching anywhere: The idea that the leader and follower are on the same team. We are not dancing against each other, but with each other. What makes dancing with high level followers so exciting is not how just how good they are at dancing tango, but how much they are in the moment and aware of everything in the dance, in me, in the music. I don't think this level of connectedness is as much a function of what we dance, but of how we dance it. I tend to talk a lot about how just walking and a ocho or a rockstep once in a while is enough, but it is only enough if the follower wants to go there, and if the leader wants to go there. Else it can be a painfully boring and unfulfilling experience, for both of us.

As a leader you cannot keep a follower "in the zone" - she has to go there herself. Nothing you do will make a difference. The clarity of the lead, how inventive your figures are, how good your musicality is are all for naught if they are not matched by the follower. It is possible to fake this degree of awareness by dancing a tad above her level - she will push herself to stay with you, and she will quite likely enjoy this awareness, and validation of her skill, but this is not the real thing. The real thing is when she puts as much energy into her following as the leader does into his leading. My own following is abysmal, so i don't have a real idea how the followers develop this skillset, but for me being aware how much i can contribute to the leaders dance by just trying to be there for him has changed my attitude towards the dance. I have no technique, but the difference in how leaders react if i try to follow with everything i have, or if i allow myself to remember what i would lead, and how i would listen to the music is noticable. I wonder if this is one of the reasons that some beginners are so enjoyable to dance with - even though they don't know much about tango they put all their trust and energy into the dance, just because they assume that the guy knows what he is doing.

A enjoyable dance is a question of mutual trust - the leader creates this trust by having a clear and confident lead - if he leads something he doesn't understand or if she doesn't see why he thinks this fits the music she will trust him less - anytime a lead doesn't work it is not just that a move didn't work, but also she will loose trust in what you are doing. The follower creates this trust by clearly showing that she is follwoing the lead, and that she will go anywhere she is lead, and that if she doesn't go somewhere she has a understandable reason - be it in the music, or because she doesn't want to do something, or anything. If a follower puts in an adornment i understand i trust her more, if she does something where i don't understand how it is related to the dancefloor or the music i get confused and trust her less.

Re: Exercises: In this vein i would suggest that the exercise Andira mentions is as much, or even more an exercise for the follower being in the moment of the lead as it is an exercise for the leader being in the music. Another exercise that i really enjoyed was something homer did in one of his workshops - he asked us to stand next to each other, not embrace, and _sing_ the tango to each other. listening to the music, and listening to how she heard the music, and singing how i heard the music was quite a interesting experience - in a odd way it was one of my favourite "dances" that day.

Gssh

[Angel HI]

^ Gssh, this is the best post of the thread.

Just today I said to a follow who was complaining about not feeling her partner's lead, "He doesn't want to dance for you; he wants to dance with you". She was not there. Also, a poster offered the terms "active awareness" and "active relaxation". May I suggest, passive awareness and active relaxation. I believe that this is what Peaches was saying, to which I agree. There is so much to being a good follow, and it is something that both partners have to be exceptionally keen at. If both partners are focusing on following, and communicating as in Gssh's post, then much greatness can be found in a dance that is void of fancy steps and syncopations. Variety? Perhaps. But, that requires what defines variety. simply changing the walk from outside to inside, and from ones to threes, or contratiempo could be...should be enough variety for a dance to be very captivating. I've done this as an exercise in classes, nad the students were amazed at the feeling.

[elisedance]

Read recently about the "lag time" between playing a note and having the the sound reach your ear, then your brain. The upshot was that unless you learn to play an instrument well enough to have the "lower", non thinking, subconscious level of the brain be in control, you can't play at a "normal" speed.
Ditto for dancing.
If there is an actual "wait for response" in the "invite" paradigm it would have to be at a very, very short interval of time. I think the "invite" then follow the response model is responsible for many people dancing out of time to the music.
As several people have pointed out (I think), it's more of a continuous processing of information. And, it has to happen faster than is possible using conscious decision making - "thinking".
Thus the need to practice, practice.
Once you have things internalized, you can begin to think things like, the next time he does that I'm going to surprise him with...


Well put...

[bastet]

Originally Posted by elisedance http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=670999#post670999)
Do you think the woman can really think that fast - mean to feel the lead and decide what to do? Somehow I don't - but as said I don't do AT - I would have thought that it is one step harder (following wise at least) than ballroom cause the actions are so fast and often so precise.
God knows I can't think that fast--dancing or otherwise, LOL.

Read recently about the "lag time" between playing a note and having the the sound reach your ear, then your brain. The upshot was that unless you learn to play an instrument well enough to have the "lower", non thinking, subconscious level of the brain be in control, you can't play at a "normal" speed.
Ditto for dancing.
If there is an actual "wait for response" in the "invite" paradigm it would have to be at a very, very short interval of time. I think the "invite" then follow the response model is responsible for many people dancing out of time to the music.
As several people have pointed out (I think), it's more of a continuous processing of information. And, it has to happen faster than is possible using conscious decision making - "thinking".
Thus the need to practice, practice.
Once you have things internalized, you can begin to think things like, the next time he does that I'm going to surprise him with...

Yes- I belive the active relaxation and awareness would be the equivalent to what you are thinking in terms of having things internalized. I have done things so much and enough to know (as I think I said in one post) what the range feels like for leads for certain elements and so the dance moves from the literal interpretation of "invite and respond" to something we have internalized through much practice. However, I will say that I have danced with my partner, made mistakes, known I had just made a mistake, then felt him change it from what he must have been intending to something else...once during a private and the teacher noticed it also and commented. By knowing where my weight was and our relative position (after all, the basic positions in tango are front and back crosses and open steps- everything else is dereived from that) he made a quick change.

However, this isn't really what the OP was asking about but I hope enough follows have responded to where he feels confident we don't need a lot of comlicated steps, but do like a little variety.

I do think it is true, as someone posted, that basically, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can do things to engage your follower, but sometimes they just aren't going to be present for whatever reason.

I give everyone I dance with my best, and all I've got, and I hope they give back too, but not everyone is that way.

[Zoopsia59]

Hi,
Wondering if followers are easily bored, and what needs to be done to keep their awareness sharp. Are fancy figures required to keep them guessing and hence help them be more aware? Or would a simple, sharp, expressive, and connected walk be enough to keep the women aware and expressive?
--
Rev

I'm giving my first gut response before reading the responses of others.

It is the follower's responsibility to stay engaged in the dance. Followers should not be completely dependent on the leader to "keep things interesting". A follow who needs really fancy steps to stay "involved" in the dance is probably NOT an advanced dancer. Advanced follows know how to give something to the dance themselves, and therefore help the process of creating connection and dialogue and in turn make it interesting (in a good way) for the leader, just as the leader makes it interesting for the follow

That said, there are things leaders do that sometimes make this easier or harder.

For me personally, one of the things I find boring is someone who dances only on the "slow" beat and never adds any "quicks". It gets especially tedious if even the cross is led only as another slow.

However... before beginner leaders of the board panic, I will say that I cut new leaders a LOT of slack on this. I know from learning to lead myself (albeit nowhere near as well as I follow) that doing any quick steps while you are trying to navigate a crowd and figure out what you're going to do next and also figure out how to "inform" your follow of your intent, is, well... a difficult skill to master. Especially if you don't take classes where rhythm is emphasized and combinations that are too fancy get taught and its all you can do to remember anything you know.

No, what I find tedious is leaders who have been dancing long enough to play with variation and simply adopt "only on the ones" as a permanent and unwavering style. It feels lethargic.

On the other hand, a single tanda of this over the course of an entire evening is not going to kill me and it gives me plenty of time to focus on my fundamental elements that I sometimes lose in a complicated or fast dance.

So basically, from a follower's point of view... Everthing is Usable.
Therefore, the follower really has no excuse for zoning out.

The other thing leaders might do that make it difficult for the follow to stay engaged is talk. (yes, there are leaders that try to use a tanda as a chance to get to know you by engaging in complex conversations about your job, world events, whatever!) Talking while dancing actaully disengages both people from the dance even though intuitively one might think that talking to her keeps her focused on you. Don't talk to your partner while dancing. 'Nuff said.

And of course, problems with the connection will create problems with her focus, but I would describe this as frustrating moreso than boring.

Generally, when I've zoned out and disengaged from the dance, its because there's something else going on in my mind or life that I can't let go of while dancing. Or I'm just too tired.

I can't think of a single instance where I can justifiably blame a leader for MY failure to engage and pay attention. Its not his job to make that happen. Its MY responsibility.

[Zoopsia59]

the teachers told us to dance a song by standing still and listening to the music antil we could not stop ourselves from taking a step, .

What a GREAT idea! I'm going to use this when I teach. I'll bet when the leader DOES finally move, he moves with intention and clarity because he will feel COMPELLED to move rather than merely required to move.

[Zoopsia59]

at least as a non-AT follower, good following actually needs some loss of awareness - you need to let the man dance almost through you as if your brain has been taken out of hte loop - there is not the time to react to a lead with conscious calculations. OTOH, adding your own element of dancing 'selling' the step it certainly does help to have some variety. I'd be interested to hear if its the same for AT...

I agree with the point you are making, but I wouldn't refer to this as a loss of awareness. I belive the AT follower should remain aware (especially in a very crowded dance with poor floorcraft all around) I would describe the goal as a loss of conscious thinking. You can't follow with your brain. But that is a far cry from not paying attention or zoning out, which is what the phrase "loss of awareness" means to me.

It somehow harkens back to a post I wrote about how women can "pay attention" without using a conscious unrelenting thinking process. Sort of like a knitter who pays attention to her stitches even while engaging in a conversation or listening to a lecture or watching tv.

So while I agree with your concept, I dislike "loss of awareness" as a way to describe it.

[Zoopsia59]

If there is an actual "wait for response" in the "invite" paradigm it would have to be at a very, very short interval of time. I think the "invite" then follow the response model is responsible for many people dancing out of time to the music..

Gotta disagree with you there. There are plenty of leaders that use forceful pushing who are no more in time with the music than those who invite. In fact, I'd say the ones who use the "invite" method properly, in my experience, have been more likely to use the music properly as well.

The "invite" method fails the music when the leader lags behind the music in issuing his invitation. But then, he'd still be off the music even if he used force. Regardless of what method of leading he is doing, the leader has to anticipate enough to be able to follow his own lead in time with the music. In other words, the lead can't be initiated too late for it to be followed on the music. A proper implementation of "invite and respond" doesn't create a lag, nor does a forceful push eliminate lagging behind the music.

[Zoopsia59]

almost every leader I try to initiate this with will respond in kind...but it has to be a subtle suggestion.

Can you elaborate on how you use this whole body movement to relax a stiff leader? I haven't found that anything to do with my movement relaxes a leader, and I've attributed that to the notion that the leader's tension is due to nerves. So I've tried to address his nervousness from a psychological approach rather than a purely physical one. But maybe you're on to something..... (trick him into relaxing without him even knowing it?)

[Zoopsia59]

Uh... I just read Gssh' post # 19.

I'll shut up now because it really says it all....

[bastet]

Can you elaborate on how you use this whole body movement to relax a stiff leader? I haven't found that anything to do with my movement relaxes a leader, and I've attributed that to the notion that the leader's tension is due to nerves. So I've tried to address his nervousness from a psychological approach rather than a purely physical one. But maybe you're on to something..... (trick him into relaxing without him even knowing it?)

That's a hard one to explain, and something I will totally admit I am still working on, and I doubt I'd even try it with certain leaders, but most people I do this with either because they've danced long enough or understand the concept, relax in to the movement when I do it but I have yet to ask wether they think I am trying to backlead or whether it just feels like natural motion...though I got great compliments from 2 people I haven't danced with in a while over the past weekend after using this idea...so who knows.

It is mostly just using the natural cadence of the music to suggest a gentle contra body walking motion...that after literally years of privates with various teachers saying it different ways, I have finally managed to work through. Most of them (all but one) only focused on the leader learning to do this to relax a follow...calling it "rocking the lady" or "lilting" (at least I think that was the term he used).

From the leader's standpoint it is opposite shoulders and legs (opposing shoulder towards weightless leg for forward walking) but you have to think it in reverse for backwards walking. We tried it multiple times but it always felt forced and then a couple of months ago had yet another lesson that ended up (yet again!) centering on this particular motion and he explained it should come from the spine otherwise it feels unnatural.

[bastet]

Gotta disagree with you there. There are plenty of leaders that use forceful pushing who are no more in time with the music than those who invite. In fact, I'd say the ones who use the "invite" method properly, in my experience, have been more likely to use the music properly as well.

The "invite" method fails the music when the leader lags behind the music in issuing his invitation. But then, he'd still be off the music even if he used force. Regardless of what method of leading he is doing, the leader has to anticipate enough to be able to follow his own lead in time with the music. In other words, the lead can't be initiated too late for it to be followed on the music. A proper implementation of "invite and respond" doesn't create a lag, nor does a forceful push eliminate lagging behind the music.

agreed- I'd much prefer and invitation to a push, so that if something DOES go wrong at least there's a chance it will be worked around rather than I'll be forved to follow through with something until he has "gotten the message across" :-?

[Andira]

If I become unattentive, I am probably not bored. I am probably irritated at something, like my hand bent beckwards in an unpleasant way, or at myself dancing badly but not being able to do anything about it.

[Steve Pastor]

Gotta disagree with you there. There are plenty of leaders that use forceful pushing who are no more in time with the music than those who invite. In fact, I'd say the ones who use the "invite" method properly, in my experience, have been more likely to use the music properly as well.

The "invite" method fails the music when the leader lags behind the music in issuing his invitation.

I'd like to think that you understand that I am in no way advocating "forceful pushing". The goal is to move together. Nevertheless there is some tiny moment of time between the perception of increasing or decreasing pressure that is the lead, and the reaction to it. What we endeavor to do is to make that fraction of a second imperceptable.
My perspective is almost exclusively as a leader, but I am well aware of most people's (both men AND women I might add) problems with staying with the music. I could once again go into the history of how we talk about dancing as couples, based on the books I've been reading, but there's a lot of work invovled in that one, I don't know if it would be worth the effort.
And, just so everyone knows, I was reminded last night that there is a school of thought that says that the leader should not give the woman a chance to not do what you are leading. And, even Cecilia González once said that in classes here in Portland. (I still have my class notes. I on the other dance don't much care for "defensive dancing" as an all the time thing.)

So, I'll just say again, with few exceptions, the goal is move together.

[dchester]

And, just so everyone knows, I was reminded last night that there is a school of thought that says that the leader should not give the woman a chance to not do what you are leading. And, even Cecilia González once said that in classes here in Portland. (I still have my class notes. That gets to what I said previously (in another thread), that not every one agrees with the "lead is an invitation" philosophy.

So, I'll just say again, with few exceptions, the goal is move together. True, it's just that there doesn't seem to be one technique that works with all followers. For me, part of the challenge is in seeing if I can figure out how to make it work with different followers while keeping it pleasant for them.

[Zoopsia59]

I am well aware of most people's (both men AND women I might add) problems with staying with the music. I could once again go into the history of how we talk about dancing as couples, based on the books I've been reading, but there's a lot of work invovled in that one, I don't know if it would be worth the effort..

Dammit, I'm getting really tired of writing every post twice. If I keep having trouble with the way my computer works with this forum, I'm going to have to give it up!

Anyway, now I have to try to rewrite the response I was writing to you that just evaporated when I went out of the reply window and back to the thread for no apparent reason. Grrrrr....

I had a great teacher say something that sounded so ridiculous at first but it was a huge breakthrough. Now I see his point demonstrated everywhere I look when at a milonga.

He said "You're on the beat, but you're behind the music"

I thought... Are you insane? How can both those things be true at the same time?

We can discuss the physics of sound (I do audio for a living by the way) or the way we relate to it psychologically, or the inherant problems of 2 people trying to move as one to auditory information...

But I've found the easiest way to get people on the beat is to point out exactly what this teacher pointed out to me....

There is a huge difference between stepping to the beat and MOVING on the beat.

If the leader is stepping on the beat, the couple is probably not going to be on the music from the standpoint of proper tango dancing. Stepping on the beat implies that the reaching foot is making contact with the floor on the beat, which means that the weight probably hasn't been transferred. If anything, the weight is "in between". This is especially true when the leader leads by reaching out in front of him with his foot before he ever moves his body at all. (forgive the gender specifics, its just takes too long to write otherwise) The leader has to move to the beat, not step to the beat.

Once people realize, understand, and incorporate the difference (both of them, but the follower can't really make it happen if the leader is behind) they stay on the music much better and they stay together much better (without any need to delve into complex science issues.) In my experience, most of the people I've taught who seemed like they couldn't find the beat actually hear it just fine. If you have them clap to it, they're right there. They know where the beat is, they just don't know where THEY'RE supposed to be!

[Zoopsia59]

That gets to what I said previously (in another thread), that not every one agrees with the "lead is an invitation" philosophy.


I'm going to go into this more on the other thread... we don't need the same conversation happening in 2 places.

[Angel HI]

.... it's just that there doesn't seem to be one technique that works with all followers. For me, part of the challenge is in seeing if I can figure out how to make it work with different followers while keeping it pleasant for them.
Keeping the OP's O.P. in mind, this is a extremely good point.

[Steve Pastor]

Skippy Blair doesn't teach AT, but she does teach those other tangos. I know here mostly for her involvement with West Coast Swing. She's been teaching since the 50s.
Regarding "stepping on the beat"...

She uses a &a1&a2 terminology to discuss the time in between the beats. It is a useful way to think about the series of motions you go through in doing something "simple" such a taking a step.

I think I have notes that go into greater detail about the parsing of a "step". (It took about 15 minutes to find the above from an earlier post!)
I think this dividing up a beat into smaller intervals is vey helpful.
Meanwhile, I can see some very clever dancer "stepping" between the beats just for the heck of it, and driving observers and their partner a bit crazy.

[Angel HI]

Though knowledge of beats/music is undoubtedly important, one should know....geez, I'm getting ready to take my life into my own hands now....in AT, you can't get off the beat if you try. One can, however, be out of phrase w/ the music.

*running to save life* :car:

[bafonso]

I don't sense emotion from my partner, generally. I feel the movement in his body, and feel his take on the music and react to that, using my own reaction to the music.


How unfortunate...

[bafonso]

I'd like to think that you understand that I am in no way advocating "forceful pushing". The goal is to move together. Nevertheless there is some tiny moment of time between the perception of increasing or decreasing pressure that is the lead, and the reaction to it. What we endeavor to do is to make that fraction of a second imperceptable.
My perspective is almost exclusively as a leader, but I am well aware of most people's (both men AND women I might add) problems with staying with the music. I could once again go into the history of how we talk about dancing as couples, based on the books I've been reading, but there's a lot of work invovled in that one, I don't know if it would be worth the effort.
And, just so everyone knows, I was reminded last night that there is a school of thought that says that the leader should not give the woman a chance to not do what you are leading. And, even Cecilia González once said that in classes here in Portland. (I still have my class notes. I on the other dance don't much care for "defensive dancing" as an all the time thing.)

So, I'll just say again, with few exceptions, the goal is move together.

The leader leads and moves the woman's core. thinking about bodies is useless...

[dchester]

At least personally, emotion doesn't have a lot to do with dancing. I can relate to the idea of just having to take a step because you are moved to do so, but it's not an emotional thing. It's more of a "how can anyone possibly sit/stand still when there's good music on that just makes you want to get up and MOVE!!!" sort of thing.
That sure sounds like an emotional response.

[Dave Bailey]

thinking about bodies is useless...
:confused:

:D

[newbie]

During one of my four beginner courses - I have taken four, two in each role - the teachers told us to dance a song by standing still and listening to the music antil we could not stop ourselves from taking a step, standing still and listening to the music antil we could not stop ourselves from taking a step, standing still and listening to the music until we could not stop ourselves from taking a step. We how led in this dance probably felt a bit silly, most of us, but did our best to occasionally take a step where the music kind of asked for it. Afterwards, the teachers asked the followers - but not the leaders! - how they had liked the dance. Of the women who opened their mouths, everyone thought it had been fantastic, best tango ever.

Whatever the followers were here, they were not bored.

Very interesting. So, the boring (from a follower's point of view) steps are the ones that are not inspired by the music. Walking only because the people behind are pushing, is boring. Pausing because the couple in front of us is pausing, is boring. Stepping on the beat just because there is a beat, is boring. Interesting.

[Peaches]

IME, yes. Just stepping (with or without the beat) is boring because it often has no relation to what's going on in the music. Besides the beat. No recognition of phrasing, no recognition of the feel of the music. Boring. Every song has a beat, and it's pretty much the same from one song to the next. If a leader is just dancing to the beat, then all the dances come out the same...boring. It's all the other stuff in the music and with the dance that makes it interesting. (And, often in these cases, it can be a lot harder for me as a follower to interject some interest into things.)

As someone else said (bastet? Me? Zoo?), it doesn't have to be complicated, but interesting is good.

That said, I do cut leaders a lot of slack. Especially beginning leaders. I know they've got a lot to focus on that I don't never have to deal with, and I appreciate that greatly.

Thinking back to this past weekend, what gets me to lose awareness and lose interest in a dance faster than anything else is a bad embrace.

[bastet]

IME, yes. Just stepping (with or without the beat) is boring because it often has no relation to what's going on in the music. Besides the beat. No recognition of phrasing, no recognition of the feel of the music. Boring. Every song has a beat, and it's pretty much the same from one song to the next. If a leader is just dancing to the beat, then all the dances come out the same...boring. It's all the other stuff in the music and with the dance that makes it interesting. (And, often in these cases, it can be a lot harder for me as a follower to interject some interest into things.)

As someone else said (bastet? Me? Zoo?), it doesn't have to be complicated, but interesting is good.

That said, I do cut leaders a lot of slack. Especially beginning leaders. I know they've got a lot to focus on that I don't never have to deal with, and I appreciate that greatly.

Thinking back to this past weekend, what gets me to lose awareness and lose interest in a dance faster than anything else is a bad embrace.

Most definitely, though a bad embrace doesn't necessarily make me lose awareness, it tends to make me have to focus so hard on finding ways around the embrace or something more comfortable that I am no longer enjoying myself and so not enjoying the dance or the music...

I think both Zoopsia and I remarked that a lot of comlicated steps aren't necessary, but some variety definitely is.