Man's Left Arm

[discovery]

There seems to have been a trend in Standard towards the man's left forearm being more horizontal (especially looking at the swing dances). That is, if the man's forearm were totally vertical it would be at a 90 degree angle and if it were totally horizontal it would be at a 0 degree angle (roughly parallel to the floor--assuming no swing or sway). It seems there is trend toward lower degree angles. Has anyone else noticed this or felt this to be a trend? Also, if so, what is the motivation for this?

[Chris Stratton]

Sure seen it...

My personal preference is closer to the old "try to put your thumb in your ear" school. That seems consistent with two ideas I like: one, that the lady's arm should have a gracefull look rather than be fully straightend or worse behind her back, and two that a big look comes from moving the heads closer to the left hands, rather than by having central heads but widely spaced hands.

This came up indirectly in a lesson last night, where it was really illustrated how having the man's hand in a dominant position with unbroken wrist, and the lady's wrist also relatively unbroken tends to turn her elbow in and under, which is very consistent with a lifted, supported back on that side. But you can't have two unbroken wrists unless the man's forearm is fairly vertical or you let space develop between your palms, either of which would spoil this particularly trick. But if you do get that sort of connection going, you immediately feel how it can actually communicate all six sorts of motion, and in the case of an expert be enough to lead with.

I think there's also a linkage to the angle of one palm to the other. If the man's elbow is bent substantially (possibly making an acute angle) and the lady has a substantial offset, then the forearms may really intersect from substantially different angles. This can feed into some details of the hand hold too.

[spatten]

I think this clearly depends on the height of the lady. The man doesn't have a lot of flexibilty in positioning his left arm. I've been taught the forearm should be bent at the elbow at a 90 degree angle - and this should stay more or less throughout the dance. Also we wouldn't want the entire arm to move much in the shoulder joint.

This leaves the man's only adjustment of the arm to meet his partner using the angle you suggest.

So a taller follower requires closer to 90degrees in your terminology and a smaller follower requires closer to 0 degrees.

Scott

[Chris Stratton]

I'd raise or lower both elbows in unison to accomodate partner height.

I know there's a strong preference for horizontal upper arms in the contemporary "dancesport" image, but I don' think that really makes aesthetic or mechanical sense unless the partnership suggests it. With a height difference, the old way looks more elegant to me.

I think the decision may also be driven by the role you feel the arms have in connection. If you believe primarily in body connection, the arms can start to be treated as mere decoration. If you believe primarily in frame connection, you probably have some very functional concerns about arm position, which unless the height is just right would trump the somewhat artificial "broomstick through your shirtsleeves" look.

[discovery]

Also, I should add that there seem to be two arm adjustments that can be made: 1) the elbow bending and staightening and 2) the upper arm rotating in the shoulder joint (either forward towards one's partner or away towards the ceiling).

The look that I see in standard seems to be caused by both a slight straightening of the elbow and a slight forward rotation of the the upper arm.

[spatten]

Discovery,

Certainly both adjustments could be made, both I don't think that means they should. I think the look caused by straightening the elbow is bad - but more importantly it can lead to too much strength in the arms. I belive if you watch video of(and I have) couples like the Hiltons, Hawkins & Newberry, Wilkins and Demidova, etc you will see very close to a 90degree angle. Of course it is difficult to pick out the angle in one plane when looking at a curved object in 3D.


My two cents,
Scott

[/quote]

[Chris Stratton]

So if not straightening the elbow, would you depress the forearm towards the lady, lower the elbow, or simply hold her hand fairly high if she's shorter than you?

[spatten]

So if not straightening the elbow, would you depress the forearm towards the lady, lower the elbow, or simply hold her hand fairly high if she's shorter than you?



The second choice is the only good answer, (according my instruction) - depress the forearm, rotating in the shoulder joint. I think lowering the elbow, or both, as you suggested earlier - is going to decrease the width or size of your topline.

I guess bending lower in the knees when lining up is another option - which won't upset your frame.
[/quote]

[Chris Stratton]

Won't depressing the forearm towards the lady break the palm-palm connection, push the frame open on that side, or position her hand behind her back?

Part of why I'm stressing the palm-palm connection is that it means there are three points in that hand alone - thumbs, palm, outside of hand. And three points are all you really need to lead, as some of the top teachers can demonstrate. Granted it's more obvious when the points are more widely spaced...

[spatten]

Hmm. My initial response to your question was - are we trying to lead the lady with the left hand? I don't think so - so I'm not sure a 3-point connection here is important. The few times I have worked strictly on left hand connection I remember emphasizing a very light connection with thumb and middle two fingers on the outside (I think - yikes it has been awhile).

As I see it, you are correct that if the man keeps his wrist unbroken the connection point of the hand to the lady's hand will change as he rotates his forearm. I guess I think this is just not as important as keeping the best looking topline.

I'm talking pretty small amounts of change in the level of the forearm - don't lower it 4 inches if the lady is 4 inches shorter. There is proabably more room for adjustment on her side - but I simply don't know enough to talk about that.

[Warren J. Dew]

A "trend"? In the only photograph I've seen of Alex Moore in dance position, his left elbow seems almost higher than his left wrist.

I think the obtuse angle at the gentleman's left elbow and the accompanying "wild left hand" that are sometimes seen are the result of body mispositioning.

[Chris Stratton]

Well, there's what he was doing in a picture, and there's what he wrote:


1. The LEFT ARM should slope slightly downwards from the shoulder to the elbow, otherwise the shoulder will be lifted. This part of the arm should be kept well back so that the elbow is in a line with the man's back. A common fault is to allow the elbow to move forward, towards the lady, thus forcing the lady's Right arm backwards.

2. The Left ARM should bend quite sharply at the elbow, the forearm pointing upwards and slightly forwards from the elbow to the hand. The forearm may be taken slightly inwards from the elbow, so that the hand is nearer the head than the elbow. This must not be exaggerated otherwise the hold will be too compact and breadth lost. The arm should be definitely angled at the elbow. Held in this way it is much smarter and not so likely to annoy other dancers as when allowed to extend outwards.

[discovery]

I think the obtuse angle at the gentleman's left elbow and the accompanying "wild left hand" that are sometimes seen are the result of body mispositioning.

I'm not sure what you mean by wild left hand, but surely if you look at most of the top standard couples of today, take Victor Fung and Anna Mikhed for example, you can see what I am talking about. I can't imagine that they are all (if even any) suffering from body mispositioning.

[Warren J. Dew]

Well, there's what he was doing in a picture, and there's what he wrote:
Ah yes ... "do as I say, not as I do." Good advice, but I believe discovery was commenting in this thread on what people are doing, not what they say or know to be correct.

[Chris Stratton]

True... only the next stage after observation is trying to figure out what it is best to do...

So I think there's some implicit wondering if there has been a shift not only in practice, but in recommended practice. Or maybe there has been no shift in practice, but a change in what is recommended? Or maybe just a change in who is being asked...

[Warren J. Dew]

There has definitely been a shift in recommended practice. If you read beyond the part of Alex Moore that you quoted, you'll see that he recommends asymmetric elbow positions. Very few current coaches recommend this any more.

I have actually heard a wild left hand recommended once, in a lecture. I strongly suspect that will not become the norm, though.

[Chris Stratton]

There has definitely been a shift in recommended practice. If you read beyond the part of Alex Moore that you quoted, you'll see that he recommends asymmetric elbow positions. Very few current coaches recommend this any more.

"5. The RIGHT ARM should slope downwards from the shoulder to the elbow in as near as possible the same line as the Left arm. This will depend to a great extent upon the height of the partner. The Right elbow will be more forwrd than the shoulder, owing to the hand being on the lady's back. It must not go too far forward nor must is be dropped close to the man's Right side."

If this is the passage you are talking about, I would read it as recommending symmetry, but being willing to tolerate some assymetry if the height match requires it. How far in time is Moore removed from the arm around lady's waist hold? I'm inclined to read him as having all of the seeds of modern competitive practice (he is recommending symmetry) but without necessarily expecting them to be developed in all of the ways others later would (hasn't recommended lowering the left elbow when necessary - though perhaps I'm the only person arguing for that at the moment)

[Warren J. Dew]

The part that's most notably asymmetric in Alex Moore is that he wants the left elbow "well back" in line with the man's back, but the right elbow in front of the shoulder.

[madmaximus]

There has definitely been a shift in recommended practice. If you read beyond the part of Alex Moore that you quoted, you'll see that he recommends asymmetric elbow positions. Very few current coaches recommend this any more.

I have actually heard a wild left hand recommended once, in a lecture. I strongly suspect that will not become the norm, though.

So what's the recommended practice these days? (At least that you've heard about anyway).

I'm curious because the structure Moore recommends is one that takes into account the mass/presence of the lady's body. If we try for symmetry (from the top view I guess) having the left and right arms aligned backwards to the gentleman's back on a hold would force the lady more towards the gentleman's right due to the flatter space it would create for the lady.

On the other hand, having the left and right elbows symmetrically lined with the gentleman's chest would create a hunched look about the man.

I also wonder what would happen to the Lady's symmetry in this case. (This one I've to think about).


madmaximus

[Chris Stratton]

The part that's most notably asymmetric in Alex Moore is that he wants the left elbow "well back" in line with the man's back, but the right elbow in front of the shoulder.

I'm pretty sure that's still being taught.

Such assymetry would be far less obvious/objectionable visually than the quite obvious view of the leaders back with upper arms sloping differently to assymetric elbow heights.

There may also be an element of giving a goal opposite of the usual problem. While I have actually been caugt with my left elbow behind my back while experimenting with promenade, that's an extremely rare error in actual dancing.

[Edie]

I know that people have moved on from this thread, but I wanted to ask for some advice on this subject. My partner and I are very close in height, he is about 1 1/2 " taller than I, but I have longer legs and arms (the legs especially with heels, which I keep very low) and I'm wondering about some angle adjustment that might help to keep our arms looking better. Any advice?

[Warren J. Dew]

Max, most coaches these days seem to want both elbows out directly from the shoulders - which is about three inches forward of the "in line with the back" that Moore recommends for the left elbow, and at least three inches behind the "forward of the shoulder" position he recommends for the right elbow. Some seem to prefer both elbows a little forward of that position; this doesn't look hunched if the back is kept straight, though it can look rounded. I've only seen one recommendation that the left elbow be as far back as the back line, and that one I didn't get directly from the coach.

This is not to say that these more modern recommendations are necessarily better - just that they are what's being taught. People I've heard who actually competed in the 1950s often say that hold was more comfortable; it just wasn't as visible in competition as the symmetric arm lines popular today.

Chris, if you saw more photographs from the 1950s, I think you'd see that Moore's recommended position is quite visibly asymmetric, even if both elbows are at the same altitude. Whether it's "objectionable" depends on the observer, of course.

Edie, if you stand about as tall as your partner, he might want to hold his elbows almost as high as his shoulders, if he has the flexibility to do this without hunching the shoulders. It will result in less of the slope from neck to elbow that is often recommended, but I think that's a reasonable adjustment with a tall lady. The drape of your right arm may allow your right elbow to be lower than your shoulder, but that's fine. If your arms are very much longer than his - say, the difference is several inches or more - your left arm may need adjustment. I don't know whether this works, but I suppose you could experiment with putting your wrist higher on his arm than normal, though you might have to switch to a "lift" for braking rather than the more direct "squeeze".

[Larinda McRaven]

A very popular west coast standard coach we work with recommends that both persons left upper arm come straight out from the back and both persons right arm is infront by a little bit and gently curves to meet the straight arm it is connecting to. This sounds like the Alex Moore descriotion
Here is a rather clumsy rendition:


http://www.connecticutballroom.com/images/standardhold.jpg

Steve and I don't aim for any one technique over any other when it comes to this. We try to do what is comfortable for both of us and looks non-objectionable for the people watching.

[Laura]

Our coach went over this last lesson -- K. has had ballet, so she told him to take second position port de bras. She said that's where his shoulder blades and elbows should be, and then he just bends one forearm up and the other down to take dance position.

[Chris Stratton]

Chris, if you saw more photographs from the 1950s, I think you'd see that Moore's recommended position is quite visibly asymmetric, even if both elbows are at the same altitude. Whether it's "objectionable" depends on the observer, of course.

While the asymmetry taught today may be less than was practiced in the 50's, I think it's still consistent with Moore's actual description. But it's possible some other factors may have changed, altering points of reference so the words imply something different today than they did then. For example, if the man has more shape in his upper back than he might once have, then saying that the hand is in front of the shoulder may not mean it is as far in front of his chest as those words might once have implied. But still, I believe that if you are going to have a fairly parallel hold, then the elbow will need to be somewhat forward - if I had to guess, perhaps around the front of the ribcage, while the left elbow is more inline with the back.

But I actually believe the message that there is an asymmetry at all is more important than the amount - the key is being aware of the issue as something to keep track of. I regularly practice this in front of a mirror - in particular, I work on getting an extreme shoulders vs feet rotational stretch for promenade, while keeping my right elbow quite far forward, and my left almost broken back. What I'm trying to do is remind myself to use my torso to turn itself, and avoid the temptation to somehow torque myself with my arms. So I practicing twisting to the right, with my arms holding an unrealistic amount of leftward bias.

[zp3929]

hello everyone,

I'm interested in what is an acceptable height for the man's left hand as well as the bend of the elbow, the reason being is that a private lesson today provoked me to think about the alignment of my left elbow and hand in contrast to the lady's movement, i noticed today that my arm seemed to be slightly pushing the lady's elbow behind her back, which made some steps difficult in situations, her arm also seemed to be elongated compared to what i've seen, with only a slight bend at the elbow, I tried moving the elbow up to an angle just below 90 degrees meaning that my palm was vertical to the floor, as suggested by the teacher, but it felt almost unnatural. could anyone please help clarify the correct way for a man to hold his left arm, an example eg diagram or video would be of great help.

thank - you in advance

Zac

[waltzgirl]

I think your teacher is right. The lady's elbow should never go behind her shoulder and it is uncomfortable for her to have to stretch her arm out full-length (plus the lead info is harder to read in that position).

What I was taught is that the couple's hands should be at the lady's eye level, with both having elbows in front of shoulders and wrists in front of elbows, so that the hands are joined about midway between the two bodies (so that if you moved your hands in toward your bodies, the hands would go in between you and not hit either person). The angle of the elbows depends mostly on the length of the respective arms, finding a position where both can keep the elbow somewhere between straight and 90 degrees, usually closer to 90.

Another way to think about it that I read here recently was to think that your arm from shoulder to elbow is part of your frame and should be consistent in relation to *your* body, but that your arms from elbow to hands "belong to your partner" and should be adjusted to fit that partner.

[thinkingsam]

I think your teacher is right. The lady's elbow should never go behind her shoulder

Does this include figures like the whisk and chasse? For the whisk in particular my partner (the follower) sometime has her left elbow go behind her left shoulder.

[Warren J. Dew]

I tried moving the elbow up to an angle just below 90 degrees meaning that my palm was vertical to the floor, as suggested by the teacher, but it felt almost unnatural.

It feels strange because you're not used to it yet. You'll have to practice it to get used to it.

Does this include figures like the whisk and chasse?

Yes. If your partner's right arm is going behind her back in the whisk, it likely means you're incorrectly leading the promenade by pushing with your left arm, rather than correctly leading it with the body.

[elisedance]

As far as possible your frame connection should not change with each figure - rotate the body from the waist instead so that you can maintain it. Look at Utube videos, top dancers dancing is characterized by very little change in the frame. At first it feels strange but after a while you start to hanker after that continuity.

[Chris Stratton]

Does this include figures like the whisk and chasse? For the whisk in particular my partner (the follower) sometime has her left elbow go behind her left shoulder.

Yes, it includes promenade figures. You will both need to learn how to create a stretch in the body for the CBMP position that characterizes promenade, so that you don't end up with this distortion in the frame.

The traditionalist coaches would tell you as the man to think of putting your thumb in your ear. You won't quite manage that of course, but it will help with two important aspects of the hold - that the man's elbow is sharply bent, and that his head is taken towards his left hand (something that goes for the lady as well - head towards own left hand).

[thinkingsam]

Thanks for the tips on the promenade position, everyone. Very, very useful advice.

The traditionalist coaches would tell you as the man to think of putting your thumb in your ear. You won't quite manage that of course, but it will help with two important aspects of the hold - that the man's elbow is sharply bent, and that his head is taken towards his left hand (something that goes for the lady as well - head towards own left hand).

Sorry, a little confused about what you're referring to here. Do you mean to imagine putting my left thumb in my left ear while maintaining my frame? So my neck stretches my head towards my left hand?

[Chris Stratton]

Sorry, a little confused about what you're referring to here. Do you mean to imagine putting my left thumb in my left ear while maintaining my frame? So my neck stretches my head towards my left hand?

Mostly it means that your left hand stays close to your head, but to a lesser degree it means that your head stretches towards your left hand.

[Nik]

Mostly it means that your left hand stays close to your head, but to a lesser degree it means that your head stretches towards your left hand.


Shouldn't your head stretch away from your frame? Wouldn't the top line be totally broken if "your head stretches towards your left hand".

[Chris Stratton]

Shouldn't your head stretch away from your frame? Wouldn't the top line be totally broken if "your head stretches towards your left hand".

Each stretching left maximize the distance between the partner's heads, and thus the size of the top line (just putting your arms out does not really establish size - arms are sparse, while heads are presence).

However you want to accomplish the stretch from the body - you of course don't want to tilt your head left at the neck.

[Nik]

Its a different topic to talk about how the stretch it done through rotation, but to simply say that your head stretches towards your left hand is not very accurate and will most likely send the wrong messege to the OP. I'm sure what you actually meant to say might be a little defferent from what is actually posted, so I'm just trying to make sure the OP does not take this the wrong way and break his frame.

[Chris Stratton]

Its a different topic to talk about how the stretch it done through rotation, but to simply say that your head stretches towards your left hand is not very accurate and will most likely send the wrong messege to the OP. I'm sure what you actually meant to say might be a little defferent from what is actually posted, so I'm just trying to make sure the OP does not take this the wrong way and break his frame.

Taking your head towards your left hand is such common advice from high level teachers in approximately the wording that I posted it in, that I'm really surprised you aren't familiar with it.

It's also very easy to see what happens when this is neglected - typically couple gets into some trouble floorcraft or turning wise, their heads centralize, and the whole presence of the couple evaporates.

[Nik]

You also have to realize that teachers have to give different advice to different people for different problems. I'm really suprised that you wouldn't say something like because you rotate your left side foward, under your head, this creates the allusion that you are stretching your head. Now this I have heard from high level coaches, who teach to use the body to shape the head, instead of the head stretching anywhere.

Maybe I am just not seeing this from your point of view... would you tell me a step in which I will stretch my head to the left hand, perhaps the step you were working on when you heard this advice? Just please try not to confuse body shape with actual head stretching to the left hand.

[Chris Stratton]

I'm really suprised that you wouldn't say something like because you rotate your left side foward, under your head, this creates the allusion that you are stretching your head.

I wouldn't say that because that is not what is going on.

It is the head that is taken towards the hand - that's a linear displacement, not a rotation.

Now this I have heard from high level coaches, who teach to use the body to shape the head, instead of the head stretching anywhere.

Yes, it's the body that puts the head there.

would you tell me a step in which I will stretch my head to the left hand, perhaps the step you were working on when you heard this advice?

I can't think of any figure where it would not be appropriate.

[Nik]

hello everyone,

I'm interested in what is an acceptable height for the man's left hand as well as the bend of the elbow, the reason being is that a private lesson today provoked me to think about the alignment of my left elbow and hand in contrast to the lady's movement, i noticed today that my arm seemed to be slightly pushing the lady's elbow behind her back, which made some steps difficult in situations, her arm also seemed to be elongated compared to what i've seen, with only a slight bend at the elbow, I tried moving the elbow up to an angle just below 90 degrees meaning that my palm was vertical to the floor, as suggested by the teacher, but it felt almost unnatural. could anyone please help clarify the correct way for a man to hold his left arm, an example eg diagram or video would be of great help.

thank - you in advance

Zac


I have a problem with my left side dropping, which drops the height level of the wrist. What I do is put my frame up, then holding the left arm where it is, I wrap my right arm around the left side, with the hand landing somewhere around my left shoulder blade and pull it to the right. Make sure to rotate the whole body and not just pull the left side, do this a couple times to feel what you're actually moving and how. What this does is get your elbow more under the wrist and closer to the lady and allows you to have a better frame. Try this with your partner when going into promenade position, you'll notice that you give her more space in the frame.

[Nik]

I can't think of any figure where it would not be appropriate.


Well that explains a lot.

[Chris Stratton]

Size of the topline in an offset hold is determined by separation between the heads... so unless there's a figure in which you want to appear small, you'd want to maintain that.

Of course if there's a situation where you don't want to be full competition size - a social, or just warming up, then you might be more central in the heads. Dropping the arms might play a role too (at least in not bumping others) but it's the head separation, created by the bodies, that really determines the impression of size.

[Nik]

Size of the topline in an offset hold is determined by separation between the heads... so unless there's a figure in which you want to appear small, you'd want to maintain that.

Of course if there's a situation where you don't want to be full competition size - a social, or just warming up, then you might be more central in the heads. Dropping the arms might play a role too (at least in not bumping others) but it's the head separation, ***created by the bodies***, that really determines the impression of size.

i like the last line of your post since youre actually starting to make some sense in what you type. Just like i said earlier, it is the body action which shapes your head, and creates a bigger shape for your lady, not the head. and I should also mention that the mans head should not be shaped as much as the lady's.

[Chris Stratton]

i like the last line of your post since youre actually starting to make some sense in what you type. Just like i said earlier, it is the body action which shapes your head, and creates a bigger shape for your lady, not the head.

Yes, thought it's common to talk about many aspect of dance in terms of the body part that is affected (feet, head, whatever) rather than the body action that creates that effect, which only comes up in the more detailed explanation.

Perhaps it's a bad habit to organize things that way, but it's a widespread one which even the technique books succumb to.

[thinkingsam]

One question related to the topic being discussed: is the typical angle of the man's left elbow different between dances?

For example our instructors suggest that the elbow is typically bent more for tango (one said 90 degrees with the forearm parallel to the ground), while for the Waltz my partner and I usually dance with my left elbow in a pretty wide angle.

Another related question: is there a typical or "correct" amount of rotation for the man's left forearm for tango? A fellow ballroom dancer told us recently that the man's left forearm should be rotated in such a way that the underside (errr... less hairy side) is parallel to and facing the ground, so the man's left hand is in something like an overhand bicycle grip.

[Joe]

I personally don't get the "sticking your thumb in your ear" idea (or sticking my ear on my thumb, for that matter). If it feels like that's happening, my head is in the wrong position.