Favourite Pet Hates

[Heather2007]

"Heather, I learned this new move in class. This is how it goes. So. When I do...."

And suddenly my flesh starts to morph into something mechanical and robotic. The Terminator Tanguera emerges with guns trained and rockets at the ready...grrrr

[Dave Bailey]

Is this thread for discussion or listing?

Assuming it's both (!), then I'd say "be patient". Us boys with our new-move toys can't wait to show them off, you know. Effectively, what the leader is asking you for is a quick practica session, to see if he can lead his move on someone who doesn't know it. Yes, OK, there's a time and a place, but it's not unreasonable to try stuff out.

My pet hate... hmmm, is "dumbassitude of some codigos in the UK" too broad a term?

[TangoTricia]

Dont have a problem with people trying new stuff out, but especially in a milonga, there is a world of difference between someone simply trying something & dealing gracefully with whatever happends ... and when they decide to stop and say look, when i do this, you....

The former approach usually produces a smile on the leaders face, i used to wish i knew whether they smiled coz it went right or smiled when it didn't. Now i know they are expressing delight at whatever happened. And that's a very good feeling for a follower.

[bordertangoman]

My pet hate... hmmm, is "dumbassitude of some codigos in the UK" too broad a term?

please be more specific

[Heather2007]

Is this thread for discussion or listing??

No, no, no. Not up for discussion as then the topic ends up drifting up stream, then out to sea and far, far away from earth's realms.

Like this:

My pet hate... hmmm, is "dum
bassitude of some codigos in the UK" too broad a term?

[Andira]

"Heather, I learned this new move in class. This is how it goes. So. When I do...."

If at a milonga, oh yeah. They don't even have to say all of it. Most of the time it's just: "Here, you should do x" (x being, for instance, "crossing your feet" without the guy leading it.)

Other pet hates of mine... hm.

Leaders who don't feel what they are doing, but still do lots of complicated stuff and don't understand how horrible it feels. Trying to do ochos while being pushed off your center isn't exactly nice. And after that, they run off to do - I don't know what it's called. The follower standing on one foot and the leader walking around making her pivot, and stuff where they take your weight, like on the outside of the thigh, and you're afraid they'll drop you. I should learn how to put a stop this. It'll be easier when I'm a bit more advanced... (I used to say "only men who never learned how to follow do this", but now I've experienced women leading in the same insensitive way. What they have in common with insensitive male leaders is, they have no interest in following.)

This isn't a pet hate, rather a pet irritation: Followers who "correct" when they think they made a mistake, so you never know just where they are. This is beginner insecurity, most of the time, but also just not understanding how leading step by step works. It tickles my teaching nerves (I used to teach aikido) and I want to start explaining how she should do and why. Depending on the situation though, most of the time it's either not appropriate or there's too little time, and I'm not sure I could explain it in a good way... so I keep my mouth shut.

[Dave Bailey]

please be more specific
I guess it's the fact that - in London - most of the conventions haven't been worked out yet, so we're kind of using a mishmash of:
A/ Stuff we think we Ought To Be Doing
B/ Stuff we've heard works in BsAs or that our teachers occasionally mention
C/ Stuff that actually does work.

So, it'd be nice for people to simply use C/.

No, no, no. Not up for discussion as then the topic ends up drifting up stream, then out to sea and far, far away from earth's realms.
Yeah, because we always stay on-track with our threads... :p

[Me]

My pet hate = drama.

[elisedance]

my pet hate - rotweilers

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Leaders who try to bully me into dancing with them.
Followers who kick high on a crowded floor.
Ballroom dancers assuming they can dance argentine tango without actually learning it.
Leaders who cannot (or choose not to) navigate properly on the floor (cutting, going backward, rear ending, waving from line to line erratically, blocking the line, not-being-able-to-stop-because-the pattern-they-were doing-was-not-over-yet so-they-bumped-into the next-couple, and such).
People who disregard music completely.

[kieronneedscake]

Followers with no sense of rhythm.

[Steve Pastor]

The follower standing on one foot and the leader walking around making her pivot, callesita - simply take the step they don't want you to take (actually, if you catch them "between steps" you could "Accidently" take that step INTO them forcing THEM off balance and very effectively ending the game.

stuff where they take your weight, like on the outside of the thigh, and you're afraid they'll drop you. Sentada From sentar - to sit. A sitting action: A family of figures in which the lady creates the illusion of sitting in, or actually mounts, the man’s leg.
There is one guy... I shudder every time I see him force someone into this.
Lock your body and resist. If they don't get it, How about a nice head butt?
Or, simply tell the men (or women) who do this, "No, thank you." Be sure to smile as sweetly as you can.

(Sorry, Heather, for voilating the spirit of your thread.)

[Zoopsia59]

Anyone who "blames" while dancing... even in a practica.

If you can't view the problem as a TEAM problem and work with the other person to solve it, keep your mouth shut.

If you assume any issue is solely the fault of the other person and that it would be ok if THEY would just fix their dancing, you are already wrong and have become an even bigger part of the problem than you already were.

[Gssh]

Leaders who believe that being able to squeeze through the smallest gaps is an example of excellent floorcraft

Followers wearing too much make-up and foundation (especially on cleavage! why????) and how most of it ends up on my shirt after dancing with them

Followers not staying in front of me, but drifting more and more to my right side, requiring constant work to keep them in the embrace.

Followers marking what they think the beat should be by waving around their right hand, making it almost impossible to lead off the main beat.
Related: Followers who simply ignore double times or traspies or half times because they want to stay on their choice of beat.

Leaders marking the beat by waving around their right hand.

Dancers that make no effort to look/feel different in their tango, vals and milonga, to the extremes of dancing on some internal beat that has no relationship with the music and stays constant over the whole milonga.

Followers who adorn without trying to complement the mood of the music or the mood that i have tried to set up with the rest of the dance - if we dance a milonga and i play and throw in a tiny, sharp and crisp sandwich + single axis quarter turn in close embrace, then the lead for the step over is not a signal to start a 5 min combo of multiple different adornos, legwarps, head level kicks and a planeo where the she is all the way to the ground.

[dchester]

I don't know what it's called. The follower standing on one foot and the leader walking around making her pivot,
Yikes, now I'm going to be afraid to lead calesitas.

http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/sulk.gif

As for my pet peeve, It's leaders with abysmal floorcraft. I don't mean the occasional step backwards, I'm talking about the guy who gets in between the two lanes, turns around and then leads around four steps against the traffic, making everyone else try to dodge his follower.

http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/twak.gif

[Peaches]

Leaders who smell excessively bad. (I can deal with *some* bad breath, and I don't mind sweaty and fresh-sweat-smelling.)

Leaders who try and teach me on the dance floor. If you know better, wonderful...this isn't the place. If you don't know better, you have no place to be teaching.

Leaders who injure me. I don't mind my toes getting stepped on, but when my back gets wrenched because of poor technique (that I generally don't mind, and am very tolerant and forgiving of) it makes me angry.

I'm sure I'd have something that annoys me about followers (not meaning to trash the guys here), but I don't generally notice them.

[Captain Jep]

Great list Gssh ! I think you've actually listed most of the things that really annoy me.

I dont know whether these are "hates" but they're certainly irritations! :

Going into a practica/milonga and not seeing immediate evidence that people are dancing with the music (so you know you can "relax")

Not being able to enjoy watching other dancers at a milonga because there is no one you think is "worth" watching (and then feeling guilty that you feel that way)

Being unable to do some form of cabaceo when you're inviting a lady to dance (ie the invitation is in the look, the words are just a formal courtesy)

Not being able to tell how tall a lady is - then when she stands to dance you find that she comes up to your navel :confused:

Teachers who never want to dance socially with you (or with anyone else apart perhaps from other teachers) :cool:

[Captain Jep]

Oh and .... wanting to invite someone specific to dance and finding that she spends the whole time looking vaguely at the dance floor ... then hearing her say that noone asked her to dance all evening

(but maybe she took one look at you and decided to ignore you! inner voice goes into overdrive blah blah )

[Angel HI]

Well said, everyone. My pet hates......all of the above! Seriously!

But, I think my greatest one is the person who takes 5 minutes of lessons, and instructs everyone he/she dances with.....all the time.

[elisedance]

people who sit watching your lesson with a smirk on their face.

I need to re read dp's 'wall' post...

[Peaches]

people who sit watching your lesson with a smirk on their face.

I need to re read dp's 'wall' post...Really? Huh. I find now that I don't think at all about other people around when I'm having a lesson. For a while, the studio where I took lessons was in a shopping mall. With the big plate glass windows in front, and people walking by all the time, I was very unnerved at first. And then...not so much. People can watch, smirk, point, talk, I don't care. So long as it's not outrightly disruptive to my lesson, I never even think about them.

Edit to add: Well, that's true with AT, at least. When I was attempting Standard, I went back to hating to have anyone around at all. I learned to deal with other people, but never got comfortable with it. But then again, I think that was more a function of what I didn't feel like an idiot doing more than the genre of dance itself.

[Peaches]

I'm going to reiterate my pet hate of getting my back wrenched. (Guess what happened to me tonight... *sigh*) Gents, please watch what you do with your right arm. It can end up really hurting sometimes.

Edit to add: And please use deoderant/anti-perspirant.

[Angel HI]

Isn't that odd...working w/ someone on that right now (after several ladies complained).

[Peaches]

Thank you, thank you , THANK YOU!!!

Do you have any tips for us ladies as to how we can try to protect ourselves from it (short of refusing to dance with the guys, or only dancing in open--which I tried, and sometimes gets thwarted)?

Another pet hate (it was not a good dancing night at all)...guys, if I stop dead in my tracks and won't move where you're leading, and tense up, and press on your back/shoulder/wherever, PLEASE do not use more force to get me to go wherever. I'm doing it for a reason...namely, another couple right friggin' there! If you can't watch out for my safety and the safety of others around me, I will take matters into my own hands...by not going *there*.

[Angel HI]

Usually, I have "a trick" or something to offer the follow, but not in this case. Unless you have softened the embrace before the "emboscada", :) , there might not be anything to do. I'm working on it.

[elisedance]

Really? Huh. I find now that I don't think at all about other people around when I'm having a lesson.

a few people watching is OK, in particular if you don't know them. But at my studio (a cooperative for independents) you are more likely to get just one person that you know sitting watching. If that person has a smirk....

[cornutt]

I'm going to reiterate my pet hate of getting my back wrenched. (Guess what happened to me tonight... *sigh*)

What on earth are these guys doing to you?

[Peaches]

a few people watching is OK, in particular if you don't know them. But at my studio (a cooperative for independents) you are more likely to get just one person that you know sitting watching. If that person has a smirk....Just figure that they're like babies that smile--they just have gas. :-)

[Peaches]

What on earth are these guys doing to you?They change their embrace dramatically. They could be fine for a bit, then when they want to do something, they hold really tightly (and abruptly, and inevitably in such a way that it's uncomfortable and very difficult/impossible for me to move my body to do what they're leading).

Often it comes with raised/hunched shoulders, so that they end up leaning forward and into me with their right shoulder...which, if they've clamped down on my back, forces me into a very uncomfortable position. Add to that a turning motion where I need to be able to dissociate, but can't, and have it done abruptly...ow.

[Shandy]

Do you have any tips for us ladies as to how we can try to protect ourselves from it (short of refusing to dance with the guys, or only dancing in open--which I tried, and sometimes gets thwarted)?

.


Peaches, always enjoy your posts (also a standard dancer, so I know how hard it is to combine both 'styles').

A bad right-hand lead drives me mad. Weeks ago I decided that I couldn't bear it any longer. No matter who (advanced dancers or less experienced), I wasn't going to tolerate being dragged around the floor. I try to offer an explanation at practicas but give 'as good as I get' (apparently my age makes me formidable) at milonga's.

I think its worked - the down-side is I think I'm dancing less - ho-hum!!!

Added because I want to carry on the discussion:

Wanted to add a possible justification: MAYBE the leaders are not used to dancing with followers who accept responsibility for their own axis and have the core strength to maintain balance in a free dance. It's sooooo easy when you're in a lesson and you know what is going to 'go down' but a free dance is very, very different. It's when the skills of a follower become MUCH MUCH more important.

[Peaches]

I'm glad to hear it's not just me who's encountered this.

Along the lines of trying to come up with possible explanations... I'm not convinced it has to do with helping the woman with her axis, or at least not effectively. I find that I'm generally fine with my own axis, but that maintaining it becomes infinitely harder when I encounter this. My pet theory (and it's just that, since I don't lead...so if anyone has a better explanation I'm completely open to correction on this) is that the guys don't understand the mechanics of the lead, and don't realized that we have to react to the intention first (without moving our axis) and then react to the change of weight. If they try to combine the two, and physically prevent us from being able to move how we need to, then the axis becomes particularly vulnerable. IME, at least.

I have been wondering, though, if there's something I'mdoing that's bringing this on. Is this a reaction to my faults? Guys, any ideas on this?

[Shandy]

I'm glad to hear it's not just me who's encountered this.

Along the lines of trying to come up with possible explanations... I'm not convinced it has to do with helping the woman with her axis, or at least not effectively. I find that I'm generally fine with my own axis, but that maintaining it becomes infinitely harder when I encounter this. My pet theory (and it's just that, since I don't lead...so if anyone has a better explanation I'm completely open to correction on this) is that the guys don't understand the mechanics of the lead, and don't realized that we have to react to the intention first (without moving our axis) and then react to the change of weight. If they try to combine the two, and physically prevent us from being able to move how we need to, then the axis becomes particularly vulnerable. IME, at least.

I have been wondering, though, if there's something I'mdoing that's bringing this on. Is this a reaction to my faults? Guys, any ideas on this?

Of course you MIGHT be doing something but maybe you're not!!

I wasn't suggesting you didn't take responsiblity for your own axis (in fact, I was suggesting completely the opposite) - but I'm aware that many of my dance partners (leaders) are dancing with followers who don't. I'm unsure as a leader what you can do with a follower who doesn't control their own axis - but when I'm watching (often - see earlier post!!) I can see it happens.

[Peaches]

Of course you MIGHT be doing something but maybe you're not!!

I wasn't suggesting you didn't take responsiblity for your own axis (in fact, I was suggesting completely the opposite) - but I'm aware that many of my dance partners (leaders) are dancing with followers who don't. I'm unsure as a leader what you can do with a follower who doesn't control their own axis - but when I'm watching (often - see earlier post!!) I can see it happens.Oh, don't worry, I didn't take it that way. I was just pondering possible reasons. And I figure I can work on fixing my own mistakes more easily than I can work on fixing theirs. ;-) I know when I lose my balance--it's the one bit of body awareness I've got--and there doesn't seem to be a correlation. At least not a balance lost-arm issue correlation; there's definitely a correlation for the reverse cause/effect.

Like you, I spend way more time than I'd like sitting...which also makes me wonder if there's something about my dancing which is off-putting to leaders. Unlike you, though, I can't tell when other follows lose their balance.

[Steve Pastor]

I've noted before that the same guys who were in classes with me, LOTS of classes, would quite obviously be pulling women with their right hand/arm.
Why?
I guess because using your arms (especially the right on which has a grip on the woman's body) to guide is a pretty natural thing to do.
So, you really have to be retrained to STOP doing it and use your torso/chest.

In reading dance books from the 50s, 60s, and 70s, you don't read much about how you lead and follow, other than in vague terms. And, when the authors aren't being vague, yes, using the right hand!
Here's Fred Astair - 1962, " Lead with your entire body and your right hand..."

I think it was Butler - 71 & 75 - who wrote that the women will sense the man's movement. Not much progress there in explaining how it works, but some progress.

Anyhow, even the died in the wool apilado instructors I've taken from will admit (out of earshot of everyone else) that sometimes you might have to use that right hand.

Still, there are always cautions about not using too much force, not pulling excessively, etc.

Well, having followed some, I know how bad it can be.
Like my ex used to say, "You can dress 'em up (and have them take lessons), but you can't take 'em out.