the perfect follow/lead

[Vin]

Ok, I rarely find that perfect follow for me on the first dance. They tend to split up into two categories, too heavy and too light.
By too light I mean someone who takes leads like hair combs and turns on those. Someone who moves with too little a signal. On the other hand she turns on a dime when I lead it. Former ballet dancers tend to fall into this category.
By too heavy I mean the opposite someone who does not turn when I lead a turn. I have to pull harder on her to make her turn, on the other hand complicated hand movements can be done easier since she is not expecting everything to be a lead.
Now I have a question, for the guys, have you seen the same split and what preferences do you have,(if you have to choose).
For the follows, is there a similar split you make for the guys and what do you prefer if you have a preference.
Honestly the perfect follows for me tend to be other salsafreaks.
Between the two extremes I have to say I prefer too light, I find it easier and more fun for me to have to lead frequent stops in motion versus constantly pulling a follow through turns.

[youngsta]

I'd have to agree with you Vin. If it's going to be either extreme I'd prefer light...as long as she's giving me resistance (no spaghetti arms!) There's nothing more tiring than leading a 'heavy' follower! It's like driving a car with no power steering.

[Vin]

Hey Youngsta, you'ld be surprised, I actually find that spaghetti arms more often results in a heavy follow than a light one. Since there is no tension I have to pull harder to get any response.

[youngsta]

I find it really doesn't fall into the light/heavy realm for me, it's an altogether different animal :lol: I just wanted it to be know there HAS to be tension for me to enjoy either of the two at all.

[Vin]

I agree completely, there is something so great about dancing with someone new and they have the right tension for salsa, is there not.

[danceguy]

Dancing with someone without proper arm tension is quite a challenge. But as you mentioned, I do prefer a light frame to a "death grip" person. If I meet a dancer who has a very light frame, I just lead them very gently...I don't ever try and force the lady to dance up to my expectations. It can be difficult at times, but some of my best dances have been with a partner who has a very light frame...its much easier for me to adapt a very smooth lead, which can be impossible with a gyrating Salsera who is spinning tornado machine. :P :shock: :D

SG

[salsachinita]

*SC wishing that DF guys can tell her what she feels like as a follower :? ......*

[Sabor]

Thats easy SC!.. even though we never met/danced i can tell u r quite devine :P .. u could say i have a good 6th sense 8)

[tsb]

Ok, I rarely find that perfect follow for me on the first dance. They tend to split up into two categories, too heavy and too light.
By too light I mean someone who takes leads like hair combs and turns on those. Someone who moves with too little a signal. On the other hand she turns on a dime when I lead it. Former ballet dancers tend to fall into this category.


i think it's possible to lead a hair comb on most followers without it being read as a signal to turn. mainly it has to do with what you do with her elbow; if she's a complete beginner i usually use the other hand to keep her elbow pointed towards me so she can't mistake it as a lead for a turn.
with really advanced followers all i need to do to lead a turn is to do a gentle flick of less than 1/2" with my right hand on her shoulder blade like i'm rolling a ball out of my palm & she'll go. other followers i need to guide her around with my right hand on that shoulder blade until she's completely faced away from me. the main point is that it's the leader's job to be clear and unambiguous as possible and to discern as quickly as possible what level of lead that partner requires - and not to lead anything they're not sure their partner can follow smoothly.


By too heavy I mean the opposite someone who does not turn when I lead a turn. I have to pull harder on her to make her turn, on the other hand complicated hand movements can be done easier since she is not expecting everything to be a lead.


perhaps you mean something else, but the word "pull" sounds kinda rough.

i think a better question would be what followers find to be the perfect lead on a first dance, and let the ladies chime in on what grabs their attention when dancing for the first time with a new leader and what these dancers do to make it easier for them to be followed. i imagine that all followers fell into one of the two categories once upon a time & i expect that they could share what good leaders did to compensate for this, experiences that we leaders could learn from.

ladies?

[salsachinita]

Ok, let's see.......

My favourite kind of leader has 'light & shade', if that makes any sense :? . It's like acting; some people are more expressive in the way they deliver scripts than others. This, of course, can be improved by consciously practicing (ie. quality rather than quantity, knowing what you want to achieve, instead of making patterns more permenant).

I will explain a bit more explicitly. More often than not, the guys that end up staying for the more advanced levels are the 'good' students who invest in the time to practice, thus 'drilling' whatever material learnt from classes into their systems. Competent leaders. Great start.

However, what makes a lead stand out from the aforementioned group, would be the way they deliver their leads. This is greatly assistedby a few factors, competency aside:

(1) Musicality. The ability to 'interpret' each song & deliver the appropriate moves/moods. Less is often more. You don't have to showcase everything you know into a 4-minute song!

(2) Perception. This is a bit more abstract, and can only be improved by experience. The ability to 'tune-in' with your follower & knowing what/how much she needs you to lead. Focusing on getting the most/best out of each other & don't expect instant miracles.

(3) Confidence. This makes quite a difference not only in presentation, it also reflects the way you lead. The more 'certain' you are, the more secure your partner feels. There is a fineline between confidence & being obnoxious though, and there has got to be solid knowledge/substance behind that confidence.

(4) Attitude. Have fun! Be positive & don't take things too seriously. Followers can sense the leader's tension, big time. How many times did I end up with really sore muscles by 'absorbing' my lead's (emotional) tension?!

:oops: I hope all these are relavent, and actually make sense. Guys...?

[salsachinita]

My question for you guys:

Would you decide whether you want ot dance with certain follower, based on her following style/skills? (ie. light & heavy, as Vin said)

I mean, if you have a preference, the followers in the other category also end up on your 'B' list, right....?

:oops: I have no idea what I feel like......some people think I'm light, others think I am heavy :oops: ........

[Flat Shoes]

I mean, if you have a preference, the followers in the other category also end up on your 'B' list, right....?


My A and B lists are 85% based on personal chemistry while dancing. A flirty, smiling and fun girls will always get on my A list unless she's a horrible follow :shock: (the last 15%).

In Lindy you can do certain stuff with a heavy paw that's diffcult with a light paw, and vice versa. I like the variation.

:D

[tj]

Nice post. I think you've really nailed it.

(1) Musicality. The ability to 'interpret' each song & deliver the appropriate moves/moods. Less is often more. You don't have to showcase everything you know into a 4-minute song!

Getting a good song is just sooo important. Everyone's got their own taste in music, and for you both to enjoy a dance, you've both gotta be into the particular song. This past weekend, I didn't enjoy the DJ's choice of music, so the whole night ended up with me feeling more off than on.


(2) Perception. This is a bit more abstract, and can only be improved by experience. The ability to 'tune-in' with your follower & knowing what/how much she needs you to lead. Focusing on getting the most/best out of each other & don't expect instant miracles.

What? We should actually pay attention to each other? :shock: Horrors! :wink:


(3) Confidence. This makes quite a difference not only in presentation, it also reflects the way you lead. The more 'certain' you are, the more secure your partner feels. There is a fineline between confidence & being obnoxious though, and there has got to be solid knowledge/substance behind that confidence.

Interesting... I'll go further and say it makes a difference with Follows, too. The more both of you can get into it, the better the connection. It also explains why I've had bad dances with some women. :roll:


(4) Attitude. Have fun! Be positive & don't take things too seriously. Followers can sense the leader's tension, big time. How many times did I end up with really sore muscles by 'absorbing' my lead's (emotional) tension?!

Lol! Sounds painful. As a lead, I can prevent this. If I feel tension and stress with my follow, I'll lighten up and simplify things until she seems secure again.


:oops: I hope all these are relavent, and actually make sense. Guys...?
Yes, quite good stuff!

And about the "A" list versus the "B" list, I think it's different with each guy.

For me, the #1 factor is more about how well we get along rather than how well we dance. You won't get even on the "B" list if there's too much social tension between us.

I prefer a light follow over a heavy one, although too responsive (anticipating leads) can be a problem, too. If you're anticipating me too much, I'll switch to alternative moves instead of doing the usual. Or maybe I'll just let you freestyle and do your own thing (i.e. shines). That'll get you put on my "B" list, though.

With my "A" list partners, there's a bit of mutual respect and appreciation going on. We both know that we can dance really well together, and enjoy each other's company and points of view. We're able to improvise and play with the music. We're really in touch with our likes and dislikes, too.

[tsb]

My question for you guys:

Would you decide whether you want ot dance with certain follower, based on her following style/skills? (ie. light & heavy, as Vin said)

I mean, if you have a preference, the followers in the other category also end up on your 'B' list, right....?

:oops: I have no idea what I feel like......some people think I'm light, others think I am heavy :oops: ........

generally, the women i would consider to feel heavy as dance partners have one of the following characteristics:

- arms being kept too stiff (a consequence of activating their arms instead of their lats) to achieve frame/connection so that part of the energy i am conveying to the trunk of their body is absorbed in their arms (this also makes it harder to do moves like hair combs or behind the back moves);
- resting too much on their heels - this makes them slower to respond as it takes a split second for them to shift their weight back onto the balls of their feet;
- anticipating the move and/or footwork incorrectly - i've got their trunk facing a certain direction and they try to place their feet some place off the line either than directly forward or directly behind them;
- taking small steps (which i can generally affect by using aikido techniques in my lead);
- poor balance;

[volleybgrl]

And about the "A" list versus the "B" list, I think it's different with each guy.

For me, the #1 factor is more about how well we get along rather than how well we dance.

AMEN!!!! I tend to dance best with people I can easily talk to off of the dance floor. My "A" list is comprised of friends (of all ability levels).

[Pacion]

Thats easy SC!.. even though we never met/danced i can tell u r quite devine :P .. u could say i have a good 6th sense 8)

Are you flirting again Sabor? :roll: :roll: :tongue:

*SC wishing that DF guys can tell her what she feels like as a follower :? ......*

Same here SC. Mind you, just like you, some guys think I have "strong arms" and others ... it's just fine. I used to swim alot and lift 20lb bags of dog food when I was younger so I do have quite strong arms :oops: :lol: so I have to try and make an extra special effort to think "loose arms, loose arms" :lol:

But, on a more cheerful note, sorry guys, but one of the best leads I have ever experienced was with Frankie Martinez! Talk about being led and not realising it :shock: Oh man! His lead was like silk - and you know how women love their silk :wink: Either that or he was too much of a gentleman to tell me that my follow was *bleep* :lol:

I think Frankie's lead, todate, has been the only "light" lead that I have been able to follow easily. Some guys are so light :shock: I feel as if I am dancing by myself and with others, it is as if I am in the spin mode of a washing machine :?

But, if I really had to choose and Frankie wasn't on the menu, oops, I mean an option, then I will take strong :D

[tsb]

And about the "A" list versus the "B" list, I think it's different with each guy.

For me, the #1 factor is more about how well we get along rather than how well we dance.

AMEN!!!! I tend to dance best with people I can easily talk to off of the dance floor. My "A" list is comprised of friends (of all ability levels).

i think we're thinking the same thing but i'd put it this way: i find that the people i enjoy dancing with the most are people whose company i enjoy off the dance floor as well; i have found that good followers generally possess a temperment /personality characteristic that i find appealing - if they've already developed a mindset that makes them fun to be with on a dance floor, that is, being a good partner, it seldom expresses itself solely on the dance floor.

[tj]

And about the "A" list versus the "B" list, I think it's different with each guy.

For me, the #1 factor is more about how well we get along rather than how well we dance.

AMEN!!!! I tend to dance best with people I can easily talk to off of the dance floor. My "A" list is comprised of friends (of all ability levels).

i think we're thinking the same thing but i'd put it this way: i find that the people i enjoy dancing with the most are people whose company i enjoy off the dance floor as well; i have found that good followers generally possess a temperment /personality characteristic that i find appealing - if they've already developed a mindset that makes them fun to be with on a dance floor, that is, being a good partner, it seldom expresses itself solely on the dance floor.

Ok, I re-read that 2-3x, and intuitively, I believe there's a subtle difference in what you're saying versus what I'm saying, but it's giving me a headache trying to figure it out.

Wanna elaborate?

[tsb]

And about the "A" list versus the "B" list, I think it's different with each guy.

For me, the #1 factor is more about how well we get along rather than how well we dance.

AMEN!!!! I tend to dance best with people I can easily talk to off of the dance floor. My "A" list is comprised of friends (of all ability levels).

i think we're thinking the same thing but i'd put it this way: i find that the people i enjoy dancing with the most are people whose company i enjoy off the dance floor as well; i have found that good followers generally possess a temperment /personality characteristic that i find appealing - if they've already developed a mindset that makes them fun to be with on a dance floor, that is, being a good partner, it seldom expresses itself solely on the dance floor.

Ok, I re-read that 2-3x, and intuitively, I believe there's a subtle difference in what you're saying versus what I'm saying, but it's giving me a headache trying to figure it out.


LOL! sorry, i was really responding to volleybgrl's (btw, i hit strong side & set in college, jumped about 34") comment - i kept your quote mainly because i wanted to retain the context. i would agree that my take has a different persective from yours.


Wanna elaborate?

to me dancing is an unique but still just another form of social interaction. some people are just more fun to be around. some of it is common likes & dislikes but some people make an effort and work towards being more fun to be around, whether it be working on their communication skills, proactively noting another person's likes & dislikes, etc. i think that mentality is found in the best followers (and leaders) and i believe that it's more likely to be a world view rather than just a philosophy about dance. but there are exceptions...

if i really like a person even if they have mediocre following skills, i will ask them to dance more frequently than someone who may have better following skills or be more attractive but rubs me the wrong way off the floor.

[tj]

to me dancing is an unique but still just another form of social interaction. some people are just more fun to be around. some of it is common likes & dislikes but some people make an effort and work towards being more fun to be around, whether it be working on their communication skills, proactively noting another person's likes & dislikes, etc. i think that mentality is found in the best followers (and leaders) and i believe that it's more likely to be a world view rather than just a philosophy about dance. but there are exceptions...

if i really like a person even if they have mediocre following skills, i will ask them to dance more frequently than someone who may have better following skills or be more attractive but rubs me the wrong way off the floor.

Hmm... so a couple of fundamental differences:

I tend to discover someone's "personality" on the dancefloor 1st and then learn what they are like off the dancefloor 2nd.

Also, just because I get along with them on the dancefloor, doesn't necessarily mean that we'll have the same world view.

Hmm... does dance chemistry = personality chemistry? It can, and often does. I know of cases where's it's not true, however. Generally, I agree with your premise that getting along on the dancefloor usually means getting along in life.

(Bottom line is that the three of us are generally in agreement here. I was just curious about the small differences.)

[tsb]

to me dancing is an unique but still just another form of social interaction. some people are just more fun to be around. some of it is common likes & dislikes but some people make an effort and work towards being more fun to be around, whether it be working on their communication skills, proactively noting another person's likes & dislikes, etc. i think that mentality is found in the best followers (and leaders) and i believe that it's more likely to be a world view rather than just a philosophy about dance. but there are exceptions...

if i really like a person even if they have mediocre following skills, i will ask them to dance more frequently than someone who may have better following skills or be more attractive but rubs me the wrong way off the floor.

Hmm... so a couple of fundamental differences:

I tend to discover someone's "personality" on the dancefloor 1st and then learn what they are like off the dancefloor 2nd.


i tend to meet people and then dance with them.


Also, just because I get along with them on the dancefloor, doesn't necessarily mean that we'll have the same world view.


like i said, there are exceptions...


Hmm... does dance chemistry = personality chemistry? It can, and often does. I know of cases where's it's not true, however. Generally, I agree with your premise that getting along on the dancefloor usually means getting along in life.

(Bottom line is that the three of us are generally in agreement here. I was just curious about the small differences.)

where do you dance in seattle? i have a couple of friends who moved there in the last year or two. well actually one is all the way down in sequim but she's a phenomal dancer and a better lead than a lot of guys i know.

[tj]

i tend to meet people and then dance with them.

Ok, that confirms it. I'll talk to them after we've danced a few.



Also, just because I get along with them on the dancefloor, doesn't necessarily mean that we'll have the same world view.


like i said, there are exceptions...

And I agree with your view that the majority of the time, I'll get along well with someone IRL that I get along with on the dancefloor.


where do you dance in seattle? i have a couple of friends who moved there in the last year or two. well actually one is all the way down in sequim but she's a phenomal dancer and a better lead than a lot of guys i know.

Generally the Century on Thursday and Saturday. Been taking Marcello classes on Mondays. Occasionally go to Wilsonian on Tuesdays (haven't been in a month), and plan on going to Dance Underground on the occasional Wednesday. Still plan on checking out Rock Salt and/or Beso del Sol in the future, just haven't had the time!

PM me their names - I might know them.


But, if I really had to choose and Frankie wasn't on the menu, oops, I mean an option, then I will take strong

Psst... hey Pacion - do you know that you're the *first* that I've ever heard say that? :shock: Interesting.

[pepe]

Leading and Following is a way of communication. Instead of words we use signs and signals. In order the communication to work obviously he has to know how to speak and she has to know how to listen. The matter gets even more complicated by the fact that every style And every school teach a different language of communication.

The prefect lead/follow is just a person who speaks you language and you are both willing to continue “talking”.

The tension in arms is probable one of most important aspect of that communication to work. But we wont say “hand connection was great” or “tension didn’t work”. We will just say we work as a couple or we don’t. Well, we will try harder for someone who is fun, hansom, or just nice, but still, we will hope that the lead-follow communication will work in future.

So:

Would you decide whether you want to dance with certain follower, based on her following style/skills? (ie. light & heavy, as Vin said)

Yes. No dance – no fun.
I don’t blame her, just we wont have fun.

The arm tension is in one’s character, it is cultural and depends of style (more of school actualy).
Here is my experience. Tell me if I am wrong.
Cultural?
Every Japanese girl I danced with, had terrible spaghetti arms (one said “women don’t give resistance to man”?!). Every black Afro-Cuban girl I feel with a very strong connection (but not rigid tension).
Character/profession?
I didn’t notice that physical strong women have more tension, but I met high school teacher and university professors who are very rigid (coincidence?).
Styles?
About styles, just shortly, dancers with common partner and into choreographed routines have spaghetti arms. Many instructors teach unfortunately choreography (no communication). Their students goes around and tell girls to “loosen up” (they need someone to toss around instead to lead). When such a girl gets across someone who knows, she can feel him as a rough dancer. Why? He has to pull her stronger or in advance (better) but both leads into a frustrating dance and often of the beat. Not easy for girls.

But hey, really, does everyone have to be the same, even the same perfect?

The beauty of Salsa is in variety.

[salsachinita]

Leading and Following is a way of communication. Instead of words we use signs and signals. In order the communication to work obviously he has to know how to speak and she has to know how to listen. The matter gets even more complicated by the fact that every style And every school teach a different language of communication.

The prefect lead/follow is just a person who speaks you language and you are both willing to continue “talking”.

:notworth: Well said, Pepe..! :notworth:

Great post! Should post more often.....!

[salsachinita]

But, if I really had to choose and Frankie wasn't on the menu, oops, I mean an option, then I will take strong

Psst... hey Pacion - do you know that you're the *first* that I've ever heard say that? :shock: Interesting.

:oops: Confession: me too....! What I mean by 'strong', I don't mean guys who yank & toss me around.......I guess 'obvious' or 'explicit' would be better words...? These are the leads who know exactly what he'd like you to do/where he'd like you to be.

They lead. They don't just go into their 'moves' & expect you to know your parts :shock: (as too many have been shown routines/choeography in class :x )! I mean, not all of us have taken the same classes....!

Now, some of the 'light' leaders are able to convey the same level of clarity through their leads. They are kinda rare, but they are around. Our own CapricornDancer is one prime example. He will be attending various Congresses in Europe before moving to Seattle in Aug! Check him out 8) .

[squirrel]

:) I also prefer explicit leaders... I like to understand what they want me to do, I'm no magician and don't read minds!
I hate guys who push and pull though...
:) I am very picky about my leaders... I have so few I really connect with!

[youngsta]

They lead. They don't just go into their 'moves' & expect you to know your parts :shock: (as too many have been shown routines/choeography in class :x )! I mean, not all of us have taken the same classes....!
That's key! If you can lead nothing is out of the realm of possiblity. There's no better expression than that of a partner who is excited and surprised at the things you lead her to do that she didn't know she could do. 8)

[Flat Shoes]

There's no better expression than that of a partner who is excited and surprised at the things you lead her to do that she didn't know she could do. 8)

I second that! :D

[squirrel]

I love surprises, but PLEASANT!

[Flat Shoes]

I love surprises, but PLEASANT!
I've made girls scream in shock on the dance floor :twisted:

But only girls I know and only when there's the right connection, mentally and physically. :lol:

I know, I'm a bad bad guy :roll:

[squirrel]

he he so have I... they don't expect a woman to be a good leader

[Sagitta]

And a guy to accept following!! :wink: :) Whenever someone starts to backlead me I say okay and reverse on them, taking the follows role!! They really get shocked! Hey if you want to lead, then lead! No back leading allowed. :)

[squirrel]

I sometimes do that with my partner... he follows, I lead... but we do it on purpose... and I've done it with other guys too... :)... it's funny, if you don't mind the 'ironed hands...'

[Flat Shoes]

And a guy to accept following!! :wink: :) Whenever someone starts to backlead me I say okay and reverse on them, taking the follows role!! They really get shocked! Hey if you want to lead, then lead! No back leading allowed. :)

Thank you! :D Why have I never thought of that?

Now I'll teach those backleaders :twisted:

[salsachinita]

There's no better expression than that of a partner who is excited and surprised at the things you lead her to do that she didn't know she could do. 8)

How true...! I've only ever experienced this a few times in my life, by some of the very best. Luis Vasquez is one of them 8) :D !

So...... to our beloved Sassy Hip, could I expect to be surprised :wink: ?

[lundasalsa]

What do you exactly mean by backleading? Here it sounds as if the follower starts leading, but I read somewhere (google, google, see for example Lead and Follow on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_and_follow_(dance))) that backleading is rather undesired anticipation. Actively leading is apparently called "hijacking" or "stealing the lead".

So, should I offer a girl to switch roles if she anticipates?

[Dame Swing Kitty]

Coming from a Lindy perspective, I enjoy a lead that is neither too firm nor too light. Some leaders are so light that I have to try to interpret what it is they want me to do, which causes a hesitation. Others are so heavy that I can hardly even style due to being pulled around. I need to feel confidence in the lead, ie., you know exactly what move you're doing and where you're taking me, and I also need expertise in the move. A poorly led move will get my arm wrenched, and that HURTS.

I very much enjoy body leads. I've recently learned Balboa, and I enjoy that very much. I also love to jazz dance with a favorite partner of mine, who body leads exceptionally well.

All in all, though, I find that it comes down to experience with certain leads. I can dance better with someone I'm familiar with than with someone I've never danced with before, regardless of skill levels.

And since I've learned to lead, I can put into my lead what I like to feel as a follow, and as a result I've garnered some 'groupies' who love to follow me.

Oh, and we have several leads who enjoy following, and do it every time we get together. My previously mentioned favorite partner and I often switch leads back and forth without warning, which is lots of fun!

[youngsta]

So...... to our beloved Sassy Hip, could I expect to be surprised :wink: ?
I have a feeling you're a bit better than I, but I'll see what I can do! :wink:

[Sagitta]

What do you exactly mean by backleading? Here it sounds as if the follower starts leading, but I read somewhere (google, google, see for example Lead and Follow on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_and_follow_(dance))) that backleading is rather undesired anticipation. Actively leading is apparently called "hijacking" or "stealing the lead".

So, should I offer a girl to switch roles if she anticipates?

Correct. By backleading I mean a person who is doing the follow steps, but leading moves. If you lead you lead moves, and if you follow you follow moves.

No offering. They start backleading and you switch roles. Then they realize something is going on. I actually enjoy both roles, so I do that, though I cannot be a follow for an entire song.

[salsachinita]

So...... to our beloved Sassy Hip, could I expect to be surprised :wink: ?
I have a feeling you're a bit better than I, but I'll see what I can do! :wink:

:shock: You really think so :shock: ? All these time I was always thinking to myself that I'm so :notworth: when it comes to dancing with our very own Sassy Hip :oops: :oops: :oops: .......as he does well in L.A, where little SC only gets to stay on the side & watch......... :roll: !

[tj]

So...... to our beloved Sassy Hip, could I expect to be surprised :wink: ?
I have a feeling you're a bit better than I, but I'll see what I can do! :wink:

:shock: You really think so :shock: ? All these time I was always thinking to myself that I'm so :notworth: when it comes to dancing with our very own Sassy Hip :oops: :oops: :oops: .......as he does well in L.A, where little SC only gets to stay on the side & watch......... :roll: !

Lol! Now *there's* a nice compliment!

Hey Sassy Hips! What's your secret to getting the LA gals to dance with you? I may need your advice for this weekend! Lol!

[tsb]

So...... to our beloved Sassy Hip, could I expect to be surprised :wink: ?
I have a feeling you're a bit better than I, but I'll see what I can do! :wink:

:shock: You really think so :shock: ? All these time I was always thinking to myself that I'm so :notworth: when it comes to dancing with our very own Sassy Hip :oops: :oops: :oops: .......as he does well in L.A, where little SC only gets to stay on the side & watch......... :roll: !

Lol! Now *there's* a nice compliment!

Hey Sassy Hips! What's your secret to getting the LA gals to dance with you? I may need your advice for this weekend! Lol!

tim, if you're really coming down to LA, skip the mayan & go to the granada in alhambra saturday night (fairly new, haven't been there for salsa yet but i've heard there are lots of extra ladies, although more beg-int than adv.) . & if you're staying for sunday night, try steven's steakhouse in commerce (and either sportsmens lodge in studio city or copacabana in pomona friday night depending on where you're staying)

one thing i have noticed here, depending on venue, is that a certain amount of racial profiling goes on if you are a newcomer (and do not look obviously latin) so it can be harder initially to get women to dance with you. this rarely happens at the venues i've listed though...

barry

[tj]

tim, if you're really coming down to LA, skip the mayan & go to the granada in alhambra saturday night (fairly new, haven't been there for salsa yet but i've heard there are lots of extra ladies, although more beg-int than adv.) . & if you're staying for sunday night, try steven's steakhouse in commerce (and either sportsmens lodge in studio city or copacabana in pomona friday night depending on where you're staying)

one thing i have noticed here, depending on venue, is that a certain amount of racial profiling goes on if you are a newcomer (and do not look obviously latin) so it can be harder initially to get women to dance with you. this rarely happens at the venues i've listed though...

barry

Hey thanks, Barry. That's very kind of you to suggest those other places for me.

But honestly, I'm visiting LA to see the competition. And even if I didn't get a single dance in, I'd be perfectly happy provided that I had a decent vantage point to watch the show.

I'm intentionally keeping my expectations low so that I'll be pleasantly surprised if I get in any dancing. It's not the primary reason why I'm going.

[tsb]

tim, if you're really coming down to LA, skip the mayan & go to the granada in alhambra saturday night (fairly new, haven't been there for salsa yet but i've heard there are lots of extra ladies, although more beg-int than adv.) . & if you're staying for sunday night, try steven's steakhouse in commerce (and either sportsmens lodge in studio city or copacabana in pomona friday night depending on where you're staying)

one thing i have noticed here, depending on venue, is that a certain amount of racial profiling goes on if you are a newcomer (and do not look obviously latin) so it can be harder initially to get women to dance with you. this rarely happens at the venues i've listed though...

barry

Hey thanks, Barry. That's very kind of you to suggest those other places for me.

But honestly, I'm visiting LA to see the competition. And even if I didn't get a single dance in, I'd be perfectly happy provided that I had a decent vantage point to watch the show.

I'm intentionally keeping my expectations low so that I'll be pleasantly surprised if I get in any dancing. It's not the primary reason why I'm going.

ok. don't forget to bring earplugs just in case - it can get really loud depending on where you are in the club.

[youngsta]

:shock: You really think so :shock: ? All these time I was always thinking to myself that I'm so :notworth: when it comes to dancing with our very own Sassy hip :oops: :oops: :oops: .......as he does well in L.A, where little SC only gets to stay on the side & watch......... :roll: !
You've been dancing much longer than I have so I'm sure you're very good salsachinita! :wink: Only one way to find out huh? Gotta plan that trip to Melbourne!

Hey Sassy Hips! What's your secret to getting the LA gals to dance with you? I may need your advice for this weekend! Lol!
You need to advertise tj! Remember the whole 'demo dolly' thread? Get out there and show your stuff...it's all gravy after that :lol: Just so you know, Sportsmans isn't open for the next couple of weeks. Granada is Fri and Saturday until Sportsmans comes back after Congress. My people tell me Granada is a beautiful place to dance, just a tad expensive. And you can't got to LA for salsa and not hit Steven's on Sunday!

[salsachinita]

:shock: You really think so :shock: ? All these time I was always thinking to myself that I'm so :notworth: when it comes to dancing with our very own Sassy hip :oops: :oops: :oops: .......as he does well in L.A, where little SC only gets to stay on the side & watch......... :roll: !
You've been dancing much longer than I have so I'm sure you're very good salsachinita! :wink: Only one way to find out huh? Gotta plan that trip to Melbourne!

Yep, we need the 'plan'!

Seriously, eventhough I've been dancing longer (than probably most people), most of those years were spent at the clubs with Latinos who dance 'naturally'. I don't know a lot of tricks & have no 'elite' techniques :oops: . I've only been making an effort in learning all that stuff recently........so I very often feel very intimidated :oops: :oops: . Not to mention breaking a few social barriers out there!

I dance mainly by instinct.....but I think I am doing ok.

The more I learn, the more humble I am, and the more blank I can be , as a follower :notworth: !

[youngsta]

We're even then, because I dance totally by instinct too! :wink:

[MacMoto]

I've been thinking about the original question, i.e., the perfect lead/follow, and to me the idea of the perfect lead changes depending on the type of song. When a song I like comes on, the first thing I think is "which of my favourite leaders do I want to dance with to this particular song?" and the answer varies depending on what sort of song it is. In other words, the idea of "the perfect lead" to me is a reflection of my idea of the "perfect way to dance to the given song", which is not a fixed thing.
For example, there is a leader who is a very light and smooth lead, and I love dancing to romantic, medium-tempo songs with him, but when something more fiery comes on, I would choose one of the stronger leads with an energetic dance style over him. For those newer, funkier sounding songs, I would grab a leader who loves a touch of drama. Oh, and I've been known to look specifically for beginners at the beginning of a night (for warmup dances) and after a spot of turbo salsa (to cool down). :roll:

I'm wondering if other followers are the same, or is there an all-purpose "perfect" lead that works for any type of music for you?

[squirrel]

I am the same... I have favourite leaders for different songs... and why not?! I also have songs I dance only with CERTAIN LEADERS... special songs, that is...

[Vin]

Hey guys, glad to see this generated alot of discussion. I actually danced an initial dance with a "perfect follow" the other night. It really was awesome having someone follow you perfectly the first time you dance with them. Of course she is a salsaholic.
One thing with salsa that I have noticed is that the heaviness varies greatly depending on what style you dance.
For example follows from Mexico I normally need to lead with more force than a follow from the North Eastern United States. Together me and one of these girls can look like crap.
The original goal of my question is to overcome this phenomenon, I want to be able to lead all types of follow well.

[salsachinita]

For example follows from Mexico I normally need to lead with more force than a follow from the North Eastern United States. Together me and one of these girls can look like crap.
The original goal of my question is to overcome this phenomenon, I want to be able to lead all types of follow well.

I guess the best way is to gain experience by dancing with a wide variety of followers, of all sorts of dance/cultrual backgrounds. This way you have enough knowledge & muscle memories to automatically adjust to each individual.

The reverse is also true. I am doing my best to follow all sorts of leads. It's my job as a follower to make the most out of the leads I've been given.....all the while having fun :P !

Vin, one of the earlier threads you've posted has some great replies for all to share. Here is a revisit:

http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1117&highlight=noticed

[ketchup]

(3) Confidence. This makes quite a difference not only in presentation, it also reflects the way you lead. The more 'certain' you are, the more secure your partner feels. There is a fineline between confidence & being obnoxious though, and there has got to be solid knowledge/substance behind that confidence.:

I think this is very true. I have a bad habit of "experiment"ing while dancing socially even with a person I dance for the first time. When we end up certain positions, my mind suddenly tells me "hey, you may be able to do THIS or THAT from this position..." And it just happens within a matter of 1 or 2 beats... sometimes it works, other times it doesn't.
I always tell myself only to do what I already know for sure, before going to clubs, but when music starts, this "experiment" devil takes over my mind :twisted: and I cannot resist it. Thus, I end up doing some things I have never planned or things that I have never even seen before... Of course, success rate is not good... just about 50-50, which means I end up messing up the flow AT LEAST 2 or 3 times in one song, no matter who I dance with. It's just terrible.

Some people say they don't plan the moves, music calls for the moves. But that is not what's happening to me. I am not that experienced. Mine is really just a bad habit and I have been fighting this "experiment" devil for years... :evil:

And now that I have started to be very conscious about my leading techniques, I am quite sure this bad habit of mine has made hundreds of dancers feel very uncomfortable while following me. So now I am forcing myself to do only the things that I know for sure --- and guess what, it's so boring... but at least I know it is much better than victimizing those ladies who kindly agree to dance with me, with my "experiments." :cry:

[Sabor]

i'm not sure i understand the issue kethup.. so maybe i'm off with this reply (sorry if i am) but the way i read it is that u need to focuss on the music first.. thats the priority.. u are thinking about the moves first and that is not dancing i'm afraid.. that is the key..
i'm just confirming what u already know.. but the point could never be stressed enough.. where u lead and partner follows, music is your 'lead'.. follow it and u can lead wrong.. experiment as much as u like .. but obey the music.. it'll likely work out more than not :wink:

[SDsalsaguy]

While I understand what you're saying Sabor I don't think this is where ketchup was coming from. I am actually very impressed with his stance on this, and feel like he's right on the edge of making some quantum progress as a leader... he's making the shift from just trying to dance and lead different patterns to actually dancing *with* his partners.

Ketchup... I understand what you're saying about getting bored, but let me suggest the following: expereimant in a different way -- see how lightly you can get away with leading everything, with each different partner, without sacrificing the clarity of your lead. HTH.

[Vin]

I think I understand what sd and ketchup are saying as well. Maybe a good approach is to keep the development of new stuff with those follows you feel very comfortable with already and experiment with different way to lead the same things with the new people you dance with.

[ketchup]

Thanks, Sabor, Sdsalsaguy, and Vin for your advice! :D

u need to focuss on the music first.. thats the priority.. u are thinking about the moves first and that is not dancing i'm afraid..

Sabor,yes, that is definitely my long-term goal in dancing. Still have 1,000,000,000 miles to go... :oops: I hope one day music starts to call for "right" moves for me. Honestly, at this point, there are a lot of things going on in my mind while "dancing" ---- and my focus is still on the moves, or the facial expressions of the partners (I am always worried about what's in their minds...) etc. etc.

he's making the shift from just trying to dance and lead different patterns to actually dancing *with* his partners.

Thanks, SDsalsa guy, I HOPE this is what's happening, but I am afraid this is yet another my long-term goal in dancing. It would be wonderful if I could get inspiration for moves from the partner and the music and I could give inspiration to the partner for the way she responses or styles. Another 10 years to go. :) I thought I have had a couple of occasions like this, but now I think about it, I guess it's simply because of the followers' arm tensions... sometimes very strong, so I had no choice but avoid certain moves... and sometimes very loose, so again, I had no choice but avoid certain moves. It has nothing to do with inspiration, I 'm afraid. Stupid me.

see how lightly you can get away with leading everything, with each different partner, without sacrificing the clarity of your lead

I will start working on this from today on! I think this will help better developing subtle techniques (about hand position, keeping tension, timing, etc.etc.), which I am obsessed with right now. Thanks for good advice! :D

experiment with different way to lead the same things with the new people you dance with.

And Vin, thanks for this! I tend to be fascinated with those people who do simple things but lead the follower into those simple moves in many different ways, so I will definitely work on this one as well. :)

[Sabor]

aaah sorry for my misinterpretation :oops:..

any way from the looks of it ketchup u are doin great and got great attitude! .. i think u are a fantastic salsero from what and how u write.. cheers! :D

[ketchup]

Thanks, Sabor :oops: but the fact is .... I am just a struggling learner. Little by little... step by step...

[Sabor]

that maybe so ketchup.. but i was referring to the attitude.. and u've got it as far as i can see.. the rest is just time and thats the easy part :wink:

conclusion: great salsero 8) goodluck to ya!

[MacMoto]

I have a bad habit of "experiment"ing while dancing socially
One of my favourite leaders often experiements with moves made up on the spot when he dances with me, which I don't mind at all. We have a great rapport and always have fun dancing together, so when his experiment doesn't work and puts me in an impossible position, we can just laugh it off, untangle ourselves and start again. In fact, part of the fun of dancing with him is that I don't know what's in store for the night because he does different things every time I dance with him. It's very spontaneous.

The key of course is that we have danced together many times before, so we already know we have good connection. We know we will enjoy our dance even before we start. When you have that, there's nothing wrong at all with experimenting. When you don't have that -- when dancing with someone for the first time or someone with whom you haven't had a particularly good dance before, perhaps you can focus your experiments on establishing connection? Try different things, but not in order to invent new moves but to find out what works for the partner. Every follower is different and likes different things. Some girls like shines, some love to be spinned million times, while others just enjoy simple but smooth-flowing turn patterns. Some followers seek passion on the dancefloor, while others want a good laugh. So if you focus on making each partner happy, you needn't be bored repeating the same set of moves again and again. Be sensitive to your partner's reaction to what you do -- in other words, dance with your partner.

[ketchup]

Thanks, MacMoto! :D

Yes, it is all true and I cannot argue with that. It's just this "experiment devil" is really a devil :twisted: and it just happens... I never ever plan to experiment.... although I sometimes plan to practice the move I saw somewhere before, as I am not taking class or that sort of things.

It really happens within a matter of one beat. When I get to a certain position, this devil shows up and tells me "why R turn again? You should be able to give her a L turn if you wait another beat..." ---- things like that. It's almost like having another persona inside of me, and it is always fighting another "me" who prefers to stay safe and flow the dance.

But I am now taking everyone's advice seriously and working on it. I killed the devil 80% of the time today at a club. When he said, "hey, what about just simple L turns instead of what you are going to do?", I said back to him "Shut up! I am not listening to you any more!!" :lol: