Amateur vs. Professional Competition

[brokenhoof]

I've been in a bit of a dilemma recently, moving back to America after over 5 years abroad. In my time in Asia/Australia I've come into some ballroom training and have done a bit of amateur competition, which I've really enjoyed. I've enjoyed it so much, in fact, that I've decided to make competition and the improvement of my dancing my number 1 priority for the next 5-7 years (I'm a guy in my late 20s, and also an American citizen).

Via a family member I've been offered a job as a social dance trainer here in the U.S. and it looks to be ideal as a form of employment (I've done the same before abroad).. though upon a quick scan of the NDCA rulebook, it appears that being a studio staff member would make me a 'pro' rather than 'amateur' competitor if I were to compete.

So I'm wondering what the big disadvantages are for competing in the Professional category vs. Amateur. I'd love to hear any feedback from those who have made the leap from Amateur to Pro via employment rather than winning an Open Amateur Champ tourney and what their feelings are/were about it.

[danceronice]

I'm not the expert, but IIRC, isn't the pro vs am thing if you teach only if you want to do pro-am? Amateurs are permitted to earn money teaching, so long as they don't enter competitions as a pro, I thought?

[Bella]

I had the opportunity to teach but had to turn down the offer due to NDCA regulations of pro-am students. In your case however, something must be misunderstood, considering majority of ams are staffed by studios and/or teach independently... Hmm, dig a little bit deeper on that one, brokenhoof.

[Larinda McRaven]

Welcome brokenhoof.

I am not sure you interpretation of the NDCA ruling is quite accurate. The current ruling is if you teach or are on staff at a studio you may still compete as an Am. UNLESS: you register as a Pro to enter Pro comps or you register as a Pro to enter Pro-Am comps.

Or you can just thumb your nose at the whole thing and teach, and compete with your students but call it "singles" or "am/am". However that is not really what he is asking... so lets not enter a pro vs am(pro) debate.

ON Topic:
Lots of people go the Pro route via teaching without ever having stepped foot on the floor as an Am let alone winning and Am title, like myself. So I would not say it is impossible. Indeed I know several.

The one thing that I find irksome is when people turn Pro, only to find it doesn't really suit them (or their next prospective partner) and they return to Am, and then back again, and then change their minds again, and yet again.

So my advice would be that whatever you decide, you stick with long enough to really see it through.

[Indiana_Jay]

...what the big disadvantages are for competing in the Professional category vs. Amateur. OK, I'm not a competitor, but I've attended some comps as a spectator and volunteer. I'm not qualified to provide much advice on whether to compete pro or amateur, but I can offer this: If you remain an amateur, you can compete in both NDCA and USA Dance competitions, thus increasing your competition opportunities. If you become a pro, you cannot compete in USA Dance competitions. Study well the rules. It seems to me that both NDCA and USA Dance rules allow amateurs to earn money as instructors while maintaining their amateur status. The first time, however, you take a student to a pro-am competition in which you are the pro, you've declared yourself a pro and made yourself ineligible for amateur competition with either organization. Likewise, it appears to me that students who earn money teaching are barred by NDCA from competing as the "am" in a pro-am couple.

[lcdancesport]

Welcome brokenhoof.

I am not sure you interpretation of the NDCA ruling is quite accurate. The current ruling is if you teach or are on staff at a studio you may still compete as an Am. UNLESS: you register as a Pro to enter Pro comps or you register as a Pro to enter Pro-Am comps.

Or you can just thumb your nose at the whole thing and teach, and compete with your students but call it "singles" or "am/am". However that is not really what he is asking... so lets not enter a pro vs am(pro) debate.

ON Topic:
Lots of people go the Pro route via teaching without ever having stepped foot on the floor as an Am let alone winning and Am title, like myself. So I would not say it is impossible. Indeed I know several.

The one thing that I find irksome is when people turn Pro, only to find it doesn't really suit them (or their next prospective partner) and they return to Am, and then back again, and then change their minds again, and yet again.

So my advice would be that whatever you decide, you stick with long enough to really see it through.

I'm not completely clear on the NDCA rules myself, but I'm one of those people who never competed amateur and went straight into teaching because I thought that was the only way to be a professional, start from the bottom and work your way up. Personally it would be confusing if an amateur taught, but then danced as an amateur with another pro... potentially competing against their own students they've been teaching? I didn't realize there was another option, but hopping back in forth between AM and PRO probably wouldn't help your credibility if you're looking at things from a long term commitment.

[lcdancesport]

OK, I'm not a competitor, but I've attended some comps as a spectator and volunteer. I'm not qualified to provide much advice on whether to compete pro or amateur, but I can offer this: If you remain an amateur, you can compete in both NDCA and USA Dance competitions, thus increasing your competition opportunities. If you become a pro, you cannot compete in USA Dance competitions. Study well the rules. It seems to me that both NDCA and USA Dance rules allow amateurs to earn money as instructors while maintaining their amateur status. The first time, however, you take a student to a pro-am competition in which you are the pro, you've declared yourself a pro and made yourself ineligible for amateur competition with either organization. Likewise, it appears to me that students who earn money teaching are barred by NDCA from competing as the "am" in a pro-am couple.

Ok I need to look through these rules now. I've read other debates on here before about being an AM and making money or a certain percentage of income, which means you're really a PRO. I'm not sure if this would even be fair, but if a new teacher is trying to get experience in the comp world, being an AM and going to AM comps with students would be a good (and affordable) way to get started. Either that or I'm really misinterpreting this whole thing.

[Indiana_Jay]

It seems to me that both NDCA and USA Dance rules allow amateurs to earn money as instructors while maintaining their amateur status.

It appears I misspoke regarding NDCA rules. I read them a few weeks ago and apparently my memory was faulty. Here's what they say about the definition of "professional:"A. CLASSIFICATION OF DANCERS
39 1. PROFESSIONAL: A Professional Dancer is one who is any or all of the following (anyone studying
40 for or taking a theory exam will not be deemed a professional unless they declare themselves such as
41 defined below):
43 b. A Staff Member employed by a Dance Studio to teach.
44 c. One who partners a Pro/Am Student Dancer or Registered Amateur in Pro/Am Competitions.
45 d. Any person who declares himself or herself a Professional by word or deed (Examples: serving as
46 a hired Partner, or participating in Professional Competitions or Team Matches).
I note that it appears one can earn money providing instruction, as long as one doesn't do so in the emply of a dance studio. In other words, if you're a self-employed independent instructor, you can still be an amateur under NDCA rules, as long as you don't do any of the other things that would cause you to be classified as a professional (e.g. compete as the pro in a pro-am competition).

This distinction probably won't matter to the OP, as he indicates he's been "offered a job as a social dance trainer."

BTW, USA Dance, which sanctions only amateur competitions lists the following activities which are prohibited for amateurs (in other words, you're an amateur under USA Dance rules as long as you do none of these things:

4.3 PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES
4.3.1 DANCING AS A PROFESSIONAL
An Athlete is ineligible to compete as an Athlete if found by the DanceSport Council to have violated this
provision.
4.3.1.1 The following acts are considered evidence that an individual has become a Professional:
a) By publicly declaring himself or herself to be a Professional, whether verbally or in
writing.
b) By competing as a Professional.
4.3.1.2 A Professional may be reinstated to DanceSport Athlete status by complying with the
requirements of Rule 4.2.3. Such reinstatement to will become effective after approval by the
DanceSport Council.

Under USA Dance rules, there's no prohibition against making money as a teacher or being employed by a studio. The prohibition against competing as a pro includes being the pro in an NDCA pro-am event, which could cause a problem for instructors who wish to remain amateurs and whose students want to compete pro-am.

-IJ

[etp777]

lcdancesport, the ndca rules have changed within the last year, and almost sure it was after your decision to not compete as student half of proam due to these rules. So you made right decision at the time, rules have just changed.

[Leonid Turetsky]

I myself competed in the highest level of competition as an amature in my Junior, Youth and Adult years.

Then, once I hit a certain age, realizing that my parents are not ATM machines...I needed my own money to support my dancing, and to keep developing, take lessons, etc.

So I turned pro and never looked back. I still want to compete in pro Latin myself... and the fact that I don't have some amazing title in amature doesn't bother me at all.... Yeah it may take more time to make a name for yourself going the pro route right away, but hey at least you keep dancing.

Plus, teaching for me is one of the best jobs... you get to dance and get paid for it! So I think going pro right away its great.

[Nik]

This depends a lot of the kind of students you plan to have. If you will teach mostly kids or beginner couples then you can stay amateur, but, if you want to do pro-am and make money from it, then you must turn pro. If you intention is having some serious competitive students then you have to be pro, otherwise they will have no desire to invest their time with you. I can tell you from experience, if you want to do this for a living, then turning pro is the way to go.

[Indiana_Jay]

... if you want to do this for a living, then turning pro is the way to go.

Well said, Nik. Your post led me to review the OP. I find that he doesn't make clear his career goals, just his dancing goals. If the potential dance instructor job is something he'll do as a sideline, then perhaps staying an amateur might work out for him. But I completely agree that if we wants a career in ballroom, he'll have to go pro and he might as well do that sooner rather than later.

[etp777]

I might say that for life time career, just turning pro likely won't be enough either. Least, most pros I know, after so many years, esp after they're done competing, have to expand into other parts. Coaching, choreography, studio ownership/management, etc. In all these aspects, starting some studying of business now, whether it's a full degree or just reading some books/attending some seminars, will serve you well.

But, that's jsut a view from the outside, I could be wrong. :)

[SmartDancer]

So if you've done pro-am(as pro) before, now you want to go back to amateur competition, is it possible? Do you have to wait certain years not competing in pro-am or pro-pro?

[NonieS]

^ omg that puppy is soooo cute!!!!


annnddd BOT.... sry....

[Chris Stratton]

So if you've done pro-am(as pro) before, now you want to go back to amateur competition, is it possible? Do you have to wait certain years not competing in pro-am or pro-pro?

You would have to contact the sanctioning organizations applicable to the competitions you want to be able to enter as an amateur and ask what their requirements for reinstatement in your situation would be. If you've been classified as a pro for any real length of time or activity they may well make you wait a bit. Most likely you would need to apply to both USA Dance and NDCA if you want to do the full range of events.

[3wishes]

ok, so completely off topic, the puppy pic for smart dancer wins hands down..who could turn down such a cute partner?!ahhhhh.

[SmartDancer]

ok, so completely off topic, the puppy pic for smart dancer wins hands down..who could turn down such a cute partner?!ahhhhh.

Thanks for liking my dog's picture. He's 8 years old already, not puppy any more. That picture was taken last year. I took him to a competition before, and he sure attracted more people than my dancing. I made more friends because of him.

[SmartDancer]

You would have to contact the sanctioning organizations applicable to the competitions you want to be able to enter as an amateur and ask what their requirements for reinstatement in your situation would be. If you've been classified as a pro for any real length of time or activity they may well make you wait a bit. Most likely you would need to apply to both USA Dance and NDCA if you want to do the full range of events.

Ok, back to the topic. Chris, you mean if I(actually it's not me, I was asking for somebody else) registered in both, then I can compete in both?

[reb]

I thought . . . if you were Pro and then want to turn Amateur that you petition USA Dance to make your case.

http://usadance.org/

If they approve - you're Amateur.

If not, enjoy Pro. :D

[reb]

^ omg that puppy is soooo cute!!!!


SmartDancer - keep posting so your avatar keeps showing up in threads!

Then, once I hit a certain age, realizing that my parents are not ATM machines...I needed my own money to support my dancing, and to keep developing, take lessons, etc.


This is such a classic quote.

[Larinda McRaven]

Ok, back to the topic. Chris, you mean if I(actually it's not me, I was asking for somebody else) registered in both, then I can compete in both?

If USADance allows you back as an Am, then you are Am. Then if you want to compete at an NDCA comp as an Am, you will then register with them as well. So you will end up paying resistration fees to whichever organization you want to compete within. But you cannot do Am at one and Pro at the other.

[NonieS]

In other words, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.... lol

[Joe]

If USADance allows you back as an Am, then you are Am. Then if you want to compete at an NDCA comp as an Am, you will then register with them as well. So you will end up paying resistration fees to whichever organization you want to compete within. But you cannot do Am at one and Pro at the other.
Isn't it possible that you could do Am for one and nothing at all for the other? Are the odds of acceptance the same for both .orgs?

[Chris Stratton]

Ok, back to the topic. Chris, you mean if I(actually it's not me, I was asking for somebody else) registered in both, then I can compete in both?

Most of the champ-level amateurs are registered in both and so compete (as amateurs) in both USA Dance and NDCA competitions.

It's technically two separate applications for reinstatement but there's a fair chance the outcomes might be similar. If not, they'd have to (entirely) sit out in the rejecting system and only dance in the accepting one, until such time as their application there was accepted.