Differences: Tango vs. Swing Dances

[DanceMentor]

One of the greater challenges for me, and I'm sure many other dancers, is to dance the tango so that it looks different than the other dances, especially with regard to the way we move through the legs.

A more obvious differences is the hold where the man's arm is further around the lady, and the overall frame is more compact with the lady's arm wrapped around the man's.

Also, the rise and fall is virtually non-existent in tango, though this can be a common problem for couples to have too much of this. There are some "non-tango" steps that are often danced that involve heel (like) turns such as the outside spin or double reverse spin that require some rise and fall to get them to work well (though correct me if you disagree on this).

When it comes the walk, in the swing dances the free leg swings naturally with the body, and using the muscles of the free leg to place it in position for the swing dances is what you don't want to do. Of course, in tango the rules are different. The free leg muscles can be used to move the leg which then brings the body. If someone were able to discuss the difference between the forward walk and the backward walk in tango, that would be appreciated.

I hope that we can have some good discussion about the differences between tango and the swing dances, as well as focus on what dancers must do to create the look and feel of tango.

[etp777]

Definitely a timely thread, as have been workign on this in last few lessons with buddy teacher. Supposedly getting better at it, but still have not grasped where all the differences are/need to be by a long shot.

[dancepro]

It was always explained to me like this.

In the "Swing dances" the body does the same action as if you were walking normally, the legs and feet doesn't.

In tango the legs does the same action as if you were walking normally, the body doesn't.

It does sound very simple, but it does take a little time to get the feel of that.

Hope this helps.

Dancepro

[Nik]

Biggest difference for me is that the hip settles over the leg much more than in the swing dances. Tango reminds me more of a latin dance because of the similar pendulum movement with the hips over the leg and under the spine. This for me is what creates a very level movement and sharp changes which are created from the resistance I can do when I build an axis over the foot with this pendulum like action.

Also since you in a lower position initially, your knees will not bend as much as in the swing dances durring compression. But, this doesn't mean you don't build as much compression, it just means you create it with smaller movement, or like that shortening the maximum points thing I said in the other post.

[samina]

When I last left off with my coaching with GJB, we were working on tango, and I was discovering that there's a kind of rise and fall in the hip compression, which I wasn't previously doing enough. Our coach kept trying to get me to settle down in my hips at the end of a movement. "Lower...lower...LOWER!!"

So even tho there is an appearance of lateral movement, as with many aspects of ballroom, it seems to be another kind of illusion.

That's my observation. Am wondering what others thing about that.

[dancepro]

When I last left off with my coaching with GJB, we were working on tango, and I was discovering that there's a kind of rise and fall in the hip compression, which I wasn't previously doing enough. Our coach kept trying to get me to settle down in my hips at the end of a movement. "Lower...lower...LOWER!!"

So even tho there is an appearance of lateral movement, as with many aspects of ballroom, it seems to be another kind of illusion.

That's my observation. Am wondering what others thing about that.

Yes, there is rise and fall in Tango. That is how the lady reads when to move and when to stop. The rise and fall is just done different. There used to be one judge that would hold up his pad to check that you weren't going up and down visually. So like the "Swing Dances" we do have rise and fall in Tango even though it is different.

Dancing is one big illusion. That to me is what makes it fun to me, the search for the unseen truth, to uncover the mystery and to make known the unknown. I am sure glad that I got the help from my teachers to be able to see through the veil that covered the truth.

Dancepro

[DanceMentor]

It was always explained to me like this.

In the "Swing dances" the body does the same action as if you were walking normally, the legs and feet doesn't.

In tango the legs does the same action as if you were walking normally, the body doesn't.

It does sound very simple, but it does take a little time to get the feel of that.

Hope this helps.

Dancepro

Your example is good for forward movements, but I am not so clear how to "walk normally" backwards. :)
How will the backward walk be different between foxtrot and tango?

[Josh]

There are some "non-tango" steps that are often danced that involve heel (like) turns such as the outside spin or double reverse spin that require some rise and fall to get them to work well (though correct me if you disagree on this).

Certainly not correcting you DM, but when leading this pseudo-heel turn actions, I feel that I give a more sharp action into the turn and dance around the lady, basically putting her on the spot and dancing around here, and this seems to work without the need to really rise her to close her feet.

[DanceMentor]

Certainly not correcting you DM, but when leading this pseudo-heel turn actions, I feel that I give a more sharp action into the turn and dance around the lady, basically putting her on the spot and dancing around here, and this seems to work without the need to really rise her to close her feet.

What about an outside spin for the lady where she would be on her toes?
(this is what we discussed with J yesterday)

[jerseydancer]

Yes, there is rise and fall in Tango. There used to be one judge that would hold up his pad to check that you weren't going up and down visually.
Dancepro

So how do you rise and fall without going up and down visually?

[DanceMentor]

And I'd like a technical clarification on the outside spin... maybe I've been dancing it incorrectly, but I've never been on my toes during this element, and even if I were, the rise would be dissipated through flexion in my knees?

The outside spin is a waltz step that uses the ball on steps 2 and 3 for the lady, and is often used in open tango routines as well. There is often a visible rise used on this figure even among top pros. The telespin would be another example of this.

I think in both cases you certainly could have rise or not, and there is likely more than one "school" on this.

[DanceMentor]

So how do you rise and fall without going up and down visually?

No body rise (except possibly in figueres like outside spin, stop lock, double reverse.)

[samina]

.

Dancing is one big illusion. That to me is what makes it fun to me, the search for the unseen truth, to uncover the mystery and to make known the unknown. I am sure glad that I got the help from my teachers to be able to see through the veil that covered the truth.

Dancepro
Once again... Dancing = Life.

[star_gazer]

Once again... Dancing = Life.

Dancing = (Life)*15 PSI

[waltzguy]

I think that tango provides the most illusion among the five Standard dances. To the observer, it looks like the lady is being thrown around and every bone in her body must be breaking. In actuality, if led correctly, it is very easy on the body of both people. Think of pro wrestling, when one guy punches and the other guy reacts violently by being "punched".

[waltzguy]

I think other differences include:
- Tango has a predominant check-like step by the left leg
- Tango has no smiling. :)

[dancepro]

Your example is good for forward movements, but I am not so clear how to "walk normally" backwards. :)
How will the backward walk be different between foxtrot and tango?

Now this is going to sound a little weird but this is how I figured it out.

Take a video camera and film yourself walking forward one time as "swing dance" and one time as Tango. Now play the recording backward and see the actions that you are doing. It is the same backward and forward just in reverse.

If this way of doing doesn't work for you then let me know and I will find another way of making it clear.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

So how do you rise and fall without going up and down visually?

According to the "old" teachers (that I had lessons with) in England the Rise and Fall is done in the ribcage. It is almost like an exhale and inhale, even though the man should be able to do it without the using of the breath as the creator of the action. It should be a muscular action of the ribcage. This action was taught to me by master from all of the 4 different schools of thought.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

Once again... Dancing = Life.

Yes, I keep coming back to that point again and again. It is just difficult to not do that as that is what I was taught and firmly believe in.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

I think that tango provides the most illusion among the five Standard dances. To the observer, it looks like the lady is being thrown around and every bone in her body must be breaking. In actuality, if led correctly, it is very easy on the body of both people. Think of pro wrestling, when one guy punches and the other guy reacts violently by being "punched".

I think, you are right that Tango is a very illusive dance.

Again I was always taught that it is the softest dance there is and the dance where you are the most relaxed. I always love it at the British Open when it is the third dance. It gave us a change to relax before the Quickstep. In most other competitions it is the second dance so you just get started and then you get a break. When competed I would have loved it to have been after the Foxtrot, that would have been perfect for me.:p

Dancepro

[tangotime]

First... Tango is a BODY dance.

However, as Len would say, " you have to have Tango legs " .

Meaning this.. the correct veer of the legs to the centre, and the brace thru the legs.

Many do not perfect the walks and prog. side, frequently placing the 2nd Q fwd, instead of side and slightly back. Len refered this to the feel of a Rock step ( with the body, not the feet ) .

The " wine glass " shape is also a characteristic that is frequently ignored.

Another important point in building a foundation ,is when closing the feet from a prom. position, leave a slight space between the feet.. it creates a base .

In the Walk, remember, the mans right leg travels farther than the left ,to create a left veering action combined with the R side lead.. this may be increased if more turn is required .Also very important.. the " dance " is danced from the mans left side in Prog. movements .

Count the Walks and Prog as a .. Power, Power.. Soft, Soft action .

And the key phrase " Pick and Place "

[tangotime]

And I'd like a technical clarification on the outside spin... maybe I've been dancing it incorrectly, but I've never been on my toes during this element, and even if I were, the rise would be dissipated through flexion in my knees?

You are on the "ball "... the slight straightening of the leg creates sufficient rise , and is quickly dissipated thru the next action.Pretty much true of all O/S spin action to some degree

[Angel HI]

A more obvious differences is the hold where the man's arm is further around the lady, and the overall frame is more compact with the lady's arm wrapped around the man's.
This has always been acheived not so much as reaching more around the lady, but by rotating the entire topline and repositioning the body. The lady actually doesn't move, save for the final repositioning w/ the man, of course.

Also, the rise and fall is virtually non-existent in tango, ....
This was always explained to me as not rise/lower but as level changes w/o rise/lower. As dpro posted, this is acheived in the legs and ribcage, rather than by rolling the feet as in the 'swinging' dances.

When it comes the walk, in the swing dances the free leg swings naturally with the body, and using the muscles of the free leg to place it in position for the swing dances is what you don't want to do. Of course, in tango the rules are different. The free leg muscles can be used to move the leg which then brings the body. If someone were able to discuss the difference between the forward walk and the backward walk in tango, that would be appreciated.
As I have said many times, the primary difference in the walks is that the 'swinging' dances are danced from foot to foot, and tango is danced from middle to middle. This is what gives it the placed, stalking, stacatto type action. It should also be danced completely on the inside edges of the feet.
The foremost thing re stepping back is to always maintain that the back leg is completely straightened when moving.

Good thread.

[DanceMentor]

Now this is going to sound a little weird but this is how I figured it out.

Take a video camera and film yourself walking forward one time as "swing dance" and one time as Tango. Now play the recording backward and see the actions that you are doing. It is the same backward and forward just in reverse.

If this way of doing doesn't work for you then let me know and I will find another way of making it clear.

Dancepro

This makes a lot of sense actually. Just the other day I was studying a routine by Mirko and Allesia and playing it slowly backwards and forward. I found it interesting that especially in Tango, it appeared as if you could dance the routine forward or backwards, and if you were to see just a a couple of bars in slow motion backwards, you might not know that the routine was being played backwards.

On the other hand, I think the same can't (as easily) be said about the swing dances, because gravity is used, and in many cases you can't "fall" backwards.

[dancepro]

First... Tango is a BODY dance.

However, as Len would say, " you have to have Tango legs " .

Meaning this.. the correct veer of the legs to the centre, and the brace thru the legs.

Many do not perfect the walks and prog. side, frequently placing the 2nd Q fwd, instead of side and slightly back. Len refered this to the feel of a Rock step ( with the body, not the feet ) .

The " wine glass " shape is also a characteristic that is frequently ignored.

Another important point in building a foundation ,is when closing the feet from a prom. position, leave a slight space between the feet.. it creates a base .

In the Walk, remember, the mans right leg travels farther than the left ,to create a left veering action combined with the R side lead.. this may be increased if more turn is required .Also very important.. the " dance " is danced from the mans left side in Prog. movements .

Count the Walks and Prog as a .. Power, Power.. Soft, Soft action .

And the key phrase " Pick and Place "

I totally agree.

I often use the "wine glass" as the illustration of the stand.

I also agree that many student are closing the feet rather then keeping them slightly apart.

I often also use the "Pick and Place" idea as well. I will sometimes use the idea of walking in new fallen snow and making foot print, not foot tracks.

Thank you for your input.

Dancepro

[dancepro]

This makes a lot of sense actually. Just the other day I was studying a routine by Mirko and Allesia and playing it slowly backwards and forward. I found it interesting that especially in Tango, it appeared as if you could dance the routine forward or backwards, and if you were to see just a a couple of bars in slow motion backwards, you might not know that the routine was being played backwards.

On the other hand, I think the same can't (as easily) be said about the swing dances, because gravity is used, and in many cases you can't "fall" backwards.

My main teacher had us (my partner and I) dance many of the steps we used both forward and backward. He said that once you can do it backwards, you really understand what you need to do to get the right action. It was funny to try and dance everything backward in practice. It was a way to keep the practice interesting and at the same time constructive.

We (my partner and I) did do it in the swing dances backward as well. I do agree it wasn't easy but you got really a deeper awareness once you were able to do the step backward. Again use the video and take you backward dancing. Then play it back and see if it looks normal. Just a different way of learning and keeping the practice interesting.

Dancepro

[Warren J. Dew]

On the other hand, I think the same can't (as easily) be said about the swing dances, because gravity is used, and in many cases you can't "fall" backwards.

The curve in tango won't look exactly the same, either.

I do in general agree with the idea that steps should look the same forward or backward, though.