Why is the swing crowd mostly teenagers?

[pygmalion]

Just curious. In my time at DF, I've run across many a dancer who lamented the fact that they were "too old" for the swing crowd in their home town. It seems that swing has attracted lots of dancers who are high school and college aged, and some forty/fifties. For some unknown reason, the in-between generation seems to be missing to a great degree. Why do you think that is? Why are the swing dancers mostly teenagers? Or are they not? Comments? :wink: :D

[jon]

It seems that swing has attracted lots of dancers who are high school and college aged, and some forty/fifties.

I don't see that around the SF Bay Area. The WCS crowd is 30s-50s, the Lindy crowd is mostly in their 20s, and both groups are aging.

[Spitfire]

It seems that swing has attracted lots of dancers who are high school and college aged, and some forty/fifties.

I don't see that around the SF Bay Area. The WCS crowd is 30s-50s, the Lindy crowd is mostly in their 20s, and both groups are aging.

Pretty much like that here as well; a younger group with the lindy scene, mostly college age, but not many who are in high school and an older group for WCS in that same age range.

I do see more high school and college age people at the ballroom dances.

[voilsb]

Most of the swing dancers I know are 22-35. I don't know very many under 21, though I also don't know very many over 35.

[swinginstyle]

One main venue in KC is filled with these teenagers. It's so bothersome. First, the music is mainly neo-swing. Second, they lack good technique and floor etiquette skills. Third, it's all ECS. Drives me crazy here. Kudos to their enthusiasm for coming out and dancing, but it now feels like a teen hangout spot instead of the mixed ages swing club it used to be. They've run all the older people and more experienced swing dancers out of there.

[Sagitta]

WCS -- older crowd -- middle aged?

lindy - younger crowd - college age

ECS -- mixed, I guess :?

I do see people of all ages in my area, as the above are major generalizations. For instance, I see the younger then college kids in the summer. This place has quite a few dance socials and some families come along to them.

[Dancegal]

Where I live, Lindy is mostly 20's and 30's (with a few high school age & college folks) while WCS tends to be 30's-50's. ECS is mixed in ages, however this crowd is not so into the "scene". I can only guess that since Lindy Hop is more athletic (body positioning, bounce) in nature, it attracts those with the energy level to match.

[danceguy]

There is a Lindy event in my area that is always full of teenagers - high school kids. The one time I went there I felt old...there wasn't anyone there my age...just a lot of youngsters but it was great to see them enjoying themselves. :)

At the Ballroom venues...I'm always the youngest person (I'm 29)...mainly people age 40-60's...same for the WCS crowd...with a few 30's and 20 somethings now and then.

SG

[jon]

There is a Lindy event in my area that is always full of teenagers - high school kids. The one time I went there I felt old...there wasn't anyone there my age...

I was at a Lindy workshop at Stanford yesterday where I was not only the oldest person in the room, but the tallest by at least 8 inches. And the next tallest was a guy who was taking the class as a follow :-)

At the Ballroom venues...I'm always the youngest person (I'm 29)

You'll get over it all too soon.

[Vince A]

It depends on what you are looking for . . .

Just about every event (competition) that I attend, other than the recent Reno Sensation, EVERYONE is a WCS dancer. Ages 9 through 88 compete regularly, and I seldom see a Lindy/ECS dancer. Actually, Reno was my first real exposure to Lindy - being able to see many LH doing their thing - usually it's only one out thousands in attendance. I have taken a couple of private lessons, but never have seen more than one or two couples doint Lindy!

Of course, the events I attend are mostly WCS oriented, and the same goes for the clubs, etc. that I choose to go to . . . for WCS, and they have some "other" dances thrown in every now and then. I don't honestly think I'd attend an event that didn't have WCS.

I think we just seek out what we like doing the most!

[TemptressToo]

My local swing venue is largely teens as well...anywhere from 14 to 20-somethings. I'd say the average age is 17.

As my local venue...all the swing done is single-time, VERY fast, very demanding music. The dancers (at least the serious ones) are all pretty hard core ECS dancers having a vast variety in skills. They dance hard (I mean sweat pouring off of them) and it is full-out dancing...nothing like the occasional ECS's mixed into ballroom parties.

I think it attracts the young because of the energy in the music, the energy needed to dance like that for four hours straight, and the ability to mix easily with one's peers in an environment free of cigarette smoke and alcohol. Plus, the kid's parents don't worry about leaving the kids there. The ECS...from Charleston to Shim Sham to Lindy and back done in my area is VERY physically demanding...at 26, I feel it the next day. Anyone older and remotely out of shape would probably feel really intimidated by the lot of us that pour ourselves into our craft. Heck...I am intimidated by some of the 17-year olds that have been dancing for years and are SO good.

There are a few people over 30...but I could probably count them on both hands.

[BettyB]

here in London the swing scene is all ages, from around 20 to 70+

not many teenagers, but that might be because most classes are taught in licensed venues, so no under 18s are allowed.

leads tend to be older than the follows though......no idea why!

[pygmalion]

Hi BettyB! :D

Here, the lindy crowd is mostly 17 -22. The college crowd and their dates, and it's because the group lindy classes are sponsored through a university student dance club. That's the biggest and most visible swing demographic in town.

West Coast Swing, East coast Swing and bop are a different story. Those dancers are OLD, comparatively speaking, which means thirties, forties and fifties. They're niche dancers, though, and the crowd is comparatively small. (btw, all three are regionally developed swing dances in the US, so it's not surprising you haven't heard of them. WCS was developed on the West Coast of the US. ECS was developed in the ballroom studios of the US, I'm not sure where, but it's related to jitterbug. And bop I'm not sure, although everybody I know who dances it is from the Eastern seaboard of the US.)

[DevilsBSD]

I'm actually 17, so I assume that I fall into that 'teenager' crowd :)
I'm pretty conservative, so I dislike grinding-type dancing, and I don't really like hip-hop music that much (although at most dances, the only thing you can hear is the bass anyway). Swing happened to be the first "formal" type dance that I was introduced to. IIRC, the instructor who came to our school said that swing was the simplest type of dance to teach. (i'm sure this is judgemental, of course.)
My $0.02.

[etchuck]

Hey wait...

Okay, the lindy/swing crowd tends to be in the early teens to mid-30s. WCS is roughly mid 20's to older. Salsa on the other hand tends to be fairly young (mid-20's to mid-40's for the most part).

Of course, we're avoiding the issue... why is it that swing (ECS/lindy) attracts the younger crowd versus the older? I think it's easier for kids to learn ECS without focusing on technique as much. Besides, they see all of those GAP commercials, so it looks so damn cool to do aerials. WCS on the other hand should connect better with kids because they can dance more "modern" stuff to it, but it's much more a technique dance.

Don't know... I am learning lindy in my early 30's, but I really have liked doing WCS a lot because I can put in a lot more music. Also, I find that the lindy crowd around here tends to be very, very picky with their music (and I think you all may have similar observations): no "neo-swing" but some conventional swing, but not too old. Can't figure that out. At least with WCS, the folks tend to handle anything I throw out.

[etchuck]

Hey wait...

Okay, the lindy/swing crowd tends to be in the early teens to mid-30s. WCS is roughly mid 20's to older. Salsa on the other hand tends to be fairly young (mid-20's to mid-40's for the most part).

Of course, we're avoiding the issue... why is it that swing (ECS/lindy) attracts the younger crowd versus the older? I think it's easier for kids to learn ECS without focusing on technique as much. Besides, they see all of those GAP commercials, so it looks so damn cool to do aerials. WCS on the other hand should connect better with kids because they can dance more "modern" stuff to it, but it's much more a technique dance.

Don't know... I am learning lindy in my early 30's, but I really have liked doing WCS a lot because I can put in a lot more music. Also, I find that the lindy crowd around here tends to be very, very picky with their music (and I think you all may have similar observations): no "neo-swing" but some conventional swing, but not too old. Can't figure that out. At least with WCS, the folks tend to handle anything I throw out.

[Dancegal]

Of course, we're avoiding the issue... why is it that swing (ECS/lindy) attracts the younger crowd versus the older? ......Also, I find that the lindy crowd around here tends to be very, very picky with their music (and I think you all may have similar observations): no "neo-swing" but some conventional swing, but not too old. Can't figure that out. At least with WCS, the folks tend to handle anything I throw out.

I mentioned earlier (on page 1 of thread May 9th) that I believe the athleticism (posture), bounce and energy in Lindy attracts those most likely (not meaning "all") to have energy levels to match.

I agree that Lindy folks DO tend to be quite picky about music. It can come across as Lindy-snobbishness. Some songs are better to dance with than others - some songs (Neo-swing) are simply unsuitable (IMO) for moderate Lindy Hop dancing and often the songs were not written "for the dancers". Lindy is the dance of an "era" 1930's-1940's and many in the scene want to preserve that spirit.

WCS is more versatile (IMO) - it can be comfortably danced to more types of music - from R&B to some Hip Hop to Pop music.

Lindy is a technique dance just as much as WCS - there is a learning curve in order to execute the basic swingout correctly. Lindy (IMO) is more "high energy" and playful in spirit while WCS is definitely the sexier dance whether danced slow/sultry or with high energy.

[jon]

why is it that swing (ECS/lindy) attracts the younger crowd versus the older?

Primarily because like attracts like. Young people don't want to be surrounded by a room full of grayhairs, older people aren't as comfortable asking young people to dance. Broadly speaking of course - everyone can consider the obligatory howls of outrage and denials that this applies to themselves, already made.

Secondarily because older people are likely to be slower, fatter, and out of shape - relatively speaking. WCS tempos have slowed down a lot from when I started around 1989, and I don't think it's just because the DJs are choosing different styles of music.

Check back in another 15 years and the demographics will again be different. The current WCS crowd will be nearing or beyond retirement age, the current Lindy crowd will be married with 2.1 kids and a mortgage - which if nothing else will cut into the exchange scene a lot :-)

[pygmalion]

why is it that swing (ECS/lindy) attracts the younger crowd versus the older?

Primarily because like attracts like. Young people don't want to be surrounded by a room full of grayhairs, older people aren't as comfortable asking young people to dance. Broadly speaking of course - everyone can consider the obligatory howls of outrage and denials that this applies to themselves, already made.

I love your sense of humor, jon! :lol:

Secondarily because older people are likely to be slower, fatter, and out of shape - relatively speaking. WCS tempos have slowed down a lot from when I started around 1989, and I don't think it's just because the DJs are choosing different styles of music.

Check back in another 15 years and the demographics will again be different. The current WCS crowd will be nearing or beyond retirement age, the current Lindy crowd will be married with 2.1 kids and a mortgage - which if nothing else will cut into the exchange scene a lot :-)

That's a good point, jon. I wonder if there are any cultural anthropologists out there looking at the "aging of America," and other large demographic shifts as they impact dance in the US and elsewhere. It would beinteresting to see how popularity of various dances, even beyond swing, relates to age, if it does. Interesting train of thought.

[jon]

That's a good point, jon. I wonder if there are any cultural anthropologists out there looking at the "aging of America," and other large demographic shifts as they impact dance in the US and elsewhere. It would beinteresting to see how popularity of various dances, even beyond swing, relates to age, if it does. Interesting train of thought.

As far as I can tell, the US actually isn't aging very much - the demographic bulge of the baby boomers has a distorting effect as it moves through, but I've been seeing projections that the median age of the country will still be in the mid-30s in a few decades. Lots of immigration and a relatively high birth rate compared to most other developed nations. Very different than the projections for Western Europe and Japan, which really are aging rapidly.

But, what I'm hypothesizing (or really, claiming based on personal obervation) it is that dancers move in age cohorts and those cohorts tend to discourage, by their mere existence, other age groups from entering particular dance forms.

[Vince A]

WELL SAID jon!!!! And so right on!

[JohnK]

Don't forget that Swing got a big popularity boost in the '90s, and what we're seeing today is quite possibly momentum. Remember Zoot Suit Riot? Cherry Poppin Daddies? Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, etc? Lot's of press reports of "the younger generation rediscovering dance", zoot suits, overcrowded college dance courses, etc.

Partner dancing in general took a major hit during the cultural upheavals of the '60's, disco warmed things back up a little bit in the late '70s, and the latest "spike" has been Swing (wonder what lit the fuse...). Those of us in our 30's to 60's are stuck in between the "neo-swingers" and the originals. To get partner dance back on the social radar screen, it has to start with the young'uns, most 30-to-60-somethings are time-deprived parents and employees. The young will age, their dancing will slow, and hopefully fill out the "dance card" again. Viva Le Swing and La(?) Salsa!!!

[DWise1]

why is it that swing (ECS/lindy) attracts the younger crowd versus the older?

Primarily because like attracts like. Young people don't want to be surrounded by a room full of grayhairs, older people aren't as comfortable asking young people to dance. Broadly speaking of course - everyone can consider the obligatory howls of outrage and denials that this applies to themselves, already made.
Here in Orange County, the ECS/Lindy scene cuts across all ages, so you have a room full of youngsters, grayhairs, and every shade inbetween. Including one gentleman who was an Enswine (technical term for "Ensign") at the end of WWII (I'll let you do the math). In fact, young girls often ask me, a grayhair, to dance.

And even though, I'll grant you, we need to take a few more breaks than the youngsters do, we can still make it around the block plenty enough times.

[etchuck]

I think being at my age (32) and with the cohorts I intersect (undergrad to graduate student to "adult"), I am probably a swing-tweener then. I really do like both, but I certainly get a bit intimidated by the younger crowd doing lindy and the older crowd doing WCS. Of course, it doesn't stop me because I also have a ballroom-dance mentality where you can just play anything and I'll go with it: lindy, WCS, cha-cha, or even salsa (when they play one). Heck, I'll foxtrot or quickstep if I think it's proper.

I agree otherwise that like attracts like, at least age-wise. But every once in a while, I would not mind being some young lindyhopping girl's westie sugar-daddy... ;) (Of course, I'd have to make a lot more money to qualify as a sugar-daddy. And I'd have to be much more a flirt.)

[xwaltz]

I haven't seen teenagers at the dance events I go to in the Bay Area, but I was excited to hear about the swing crowd being mostly teenagers in this topic title (although the topic was posted as a complaint about this fact...)

I see it this way... that when teenagers and high schoolers take to an activity, it means it's becoming mainstream. This is exciting!! Really! If you want to know where the cultural landscape is shifting, you have to look to the kids and teenagers. Before, social and ballroom dance seemed to be something people weren't exposed to until college or after.

I got introduced to social ballroom dance during the 90s swing craze. I think swing is just the easiest dance to become interested in first because it's fun and exciting, especially for the younger folks. From swing, I then got into other dances, and I'm sure the teenagers will also start moving into other dance forms as well.

For me, dancing is actually the main social activity where I get to interact (and dance) with people of most age groups, from about 18 to 73, though mostly in the 20 to 35 range, unlike most other activities and communities which are homogeneous in age. We shouldn't let this be a detractor taking us away from a dance scene, but try to embrace it. We don't interact with people of other age groups enough these days.

[swinginstyle]

Here in Orange County, the ECS/Lindy scene cuts across all ages, so you have a room full of youngsters, grayhairs, and every shade inbetween. Including one gentleman who was an Enswine (technical term for "Ensign") at the end of WWII (I'll let you do the math). In fact, young girls often ask me, a grayhair, to dance.

Does that happen to be Cornelius? I hope I got his name right. He restores WWII vehicles, etc. He came to one of my dances in KC when visiting his son who was stationed at Whiteman Air Force base in Warrensbrg, MO.

[DWise1]

Here in Orange County, the ECS/Lindy scene cuts across all ages, so you have a room full of youngsters, grayhairs, and every shade inbetween. Including one gentleman who was an Enswine (technical term for "Ensign") at the end of WWII (I'll let you do the math). In fact, young girls often ask me, a grayhair, to dance.

Does that happen to be Cornelius? I hope I got his name right. He restores WWII vehicles, etc. He came to one of my dances in KC when visiting his son who was stationed at Whiteman Air Force base in Warrensbrg, MO.
It's Clint; I don't know his last name. He was an fighter pilot (an aviator, actually) assigned to his first carrier and had been part of a successful air raid against the US Army Air Corps in Panama (just for practice). He had just started steaming out of San Francisco for action in the West Pacific when the Japanese surrendered. He says it was because they had heard that he was coming to fight them.

[xwaltz]

What is neo swing?

[swinginstyle]

You could say it's music played by Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, Cherry Poppin' Daddies, Brian Setzer, and other bands which play "swing", though it sounds like it has a straight beat, more like rock. If anyone wants to jump in and add to my definition feel free to do so. Also, neo, in my opinion, doesn't give much to play with.

[etchuck]

Neo-swing (or swing nouveau as I call it... after years of French, hey) is mostly the newer rock bands as mentioned before that do mostly swing. It's sorta funny... it's like Rockabilly (like the Stray Cats, of which Brian Setzer was part) meets Big Band. The nice part is that many of the "classic" swing songs are being covered into really nice orchestrations. Not to mention, the music is in stereo and digitally recorded. :)

Of course I also would not mind a few nods to the original big band groups and up to the 50's and 60's swing generation in a swing playlist. Usually the DJ's will accommodate that, but again... we're back to why some of the swing dancers like certain time periods of swing dancing. Heck, Mozart is Mozart no matter where you play it and when you record it... so I find this snobbishness a bit intriguing.

[DWise1]

Heck, Mozart is Mozart no matter where you play it and when you record it... so I find this snobbishness a bit intriguing.
Not really. Mozart predated the re-design of most musical instruments to make them louder. In Beethovan's time, musicians started breaking out of the old patronage system and making their money playing to audiences in concert halls. The bigger the hall, the more tickets you could sell, but the instruments had been designed for more intimate audiences (ie, smaller and closer to the orchestra). So they redesigned the instruments to play loudly enough to reach the back of the auditorium.

So Mozart on period instruments sounds different than on modern instruments. Why, I've even heard Mozart reduced to Muzak, which is not pretty!

... so I find this snobbishness a bit intriguing.
Of course, I personally disavow any snobbishness [grin].

I would guess that for most it would a matter of how the band interprets the song. Purists would not want modern stylings to worm their way in, while others might enjoy the band having a little fun with the music. I mean, this is supposed to be fun, right?

I'm relatively new to dancing and swing music moves me! It physically gets me moving. Swing Classic especially (ie, 30's & 40's). If the new music does the same for me then great, if not then there's something missing.

Other than that, there's the fun of rediscovering how lively they were in the past. Why, even in 1938 Ella Fitzgerald (I'm pretty sure it was her in the recording I heard) was singing about her love for "rock and roll".

[etchuck]

Fair point on the Mozart/Beethoven point (in terms of period pieces). Certainly hearing a viola da gamba being played at Bach's St. Matthew's Passion at a Cleveland Orchestra concert was quite an experience. Of course, I'm one who would appreciate hearing the originals (the "composer's cut" if you will) as I would anyone else covering them since with newer instruments. Not everyone is like that though, and ... well... it's too bad.

(We've covered Beethoven covers in ballroom already, so I need not want to rehash that.)

But good for you if you are willing and interested in going back to the past and hear Ella Fitzgerald and Dinah Washington and the "classic" jazz artists during the Big Band period. I think it does make you appreciate the newer covers better. I didn't know who Louis Prima was and thought for my naive time that David Lee Roth really composed "I Ain't Got Nobody." To this day, I try to correct people from thinking Brian Setzer wrote "Jump Jive and Wail". :)

[pygmalion]

Warning: this is completely off topic.

Did you hear about the Wynton Marsalis experiment where he went back and recorded period music with period recording equipment? It's been a while since the NPR story. If I remember correctly, he was recording some W.C. Handy music.

Wow! I wouldn't say it sounded great; the quality was limited by the existing technology. But it was quite educational to hear the difference between simulated period recordings and modern day recordings and to speculate about the effects of technology on the contemporary music we're hearing. Hmm. 8)

[suek]

[we seem to have drifted way way off topic. or maybe not so much.]

i don't care when it was recorded. I care if it swings. Someone on the last page said it: are they swingin' the beats or hitting them dead on, like rock and roll?

Modern artists who "swing" their swing music: George Gee, Bill Elliott for two. The other "neo-swing" folks previously mentioned: not so much (swing, that is).

[DWise1]

Fair point on the Mozart/Beethoven point (in terms of period pieces). Certainly hearing a viola da gamba being played at Bach's St. Matthew's Passion at a Cleveland Orchestra concert was quite an experience. Of course, I'm one who would appreciate hearing the originals (the "composer's cut" if you will) as I would anyone else covering them since with newer instruments. Not everyone is like that though, and ... well... it's too bad.

(We've covered Beethoven covers in ballroom already, so I need not want to rehash that.)

But good for you if you are willing and interested in going back to the past and hear Ella Fitzgerald and Dinah Washington and the "classic" jazz artists during the Big Band period. I think it does make you appreciate the newer covers better. I didn't know who Louis Prima was and thought for my naive time that David Lee Roth really composed "I Ain't Got Nobody." To this day, I try to correct people from thinking Brian Setzer wrote "Jump Jive and Wail". :)
I found out who Louis Prima was when Disney's "Jungle Book" first came out (yes, I am that gray).

How many people know that Santana's "Oye Como Va" is actually a Tito Fuente song?

How many people know that "Blue Moon", a Sha Na Na standard, is a 40's standard?

Or that the Doors' "Whiskey Bar" is a Kurt Weil song? Kurt Weil is the German composer who wrote "Das Moritat von Mackie Messer" ("Mack the Knife") for the 30's play and movie "Die Drei-Groschen Oper" ("The Three Penny Opera"). Or that Lotte Lenya was his wife and an actress in the movie? Or that she was present when Louis Armstrong recorded the American version of the song, for which occasion he added her name to surprise and honor her? BTW, you saw her in the second Bond film, "From Russia With Love", as the Soviet officer working for Spectre.

For some reason, after my post I was thinking of "Minnie the Moocher". When I saw "The Blues Brothers" soon as it first hit HBO, Cab Calloway's (yes, he was in that movie) performance of "Minnie the Moocher" meant a lot more to me because a couple years or so before I had seen the original 30's [?] movie that scene had been based on, right down to the same white tuxedos. Now, how many of the people who have seen "Blues Brothers" had any idea? Or even knew who "that old guy" was?

My favorite line from the movie was before their gig at the cowboy bar and they ask the waitress what kind of music their customers like and she twangs, "Why both kinds; Country AND Western!"

One of my favorite memories of our younger son was him sitting impassively watching "Blues Brothers" on TV. I asked him what he was watching and he told me. Then he added very dead-pan, "They say it's funny." Yes, he did find it funny, but he was just reporting what the announcer had said about it.

[pygmalion]

How many people know that Santana's "Oye Como Va" is actually a Tito Fuente song?



When I saw Tito Puente in concert several years ago, he was so funny. He said that, when Oye Como Va got so popular, he used to get annoyed when people asked him why he was playing a Santana song. Then he started getting royalty checks. THEN, he started saying, "yes, I'm playing a Santana song ... all the way to the bank!" :lol: :lol:

Tito Puente was a funny man. I'm so glad I saw him play. Just by chance. It was a freebie concert on a weekend when I had nothing else to do. That turned out to be on my top ten list of best concerts I've ever seen. 8)