Swing outs?

[BettyB]

Hello everyone :)

i've been lurking for a while, but this is my first post.

i'm a recent convert to lindy (about 6 weeks dancing, managed to fit in around 15 classes so far!) i was a bit scared to social dance at first, but i'm getting over that now (even though im still counting in my head!)

anyway, this brings me to my question.

i'm ok at following clear leads, but when it gets to swing outs and my partner gives me that moment in the spotlight, i just cant get with it!

can anyone suggest anything simple (or point me at web based footage) for that swing out moment.........right now i look like a dead mouse dangling on a piece of string!

TIA!

[pygmalion]

Hi BettyB. Welcome to the forums. I can't answer for you, although I'm sure someone will log on soon and give you pointers. Just wanted to say hi and welcome to the forums. :D 8)

[Spitfire]

BettyB,

Here is a page with some video clips. (http://www.ballroomdancers.com/Dances/featured_steps.asp?Dance=LH)

Welcome to the forums. :D

[Flat Shoes]

You're talking about expressing yourself to the music? It will come with time and experience. Make sure you dance soicially, listen to music at home, look at what others do, practice in front of the mirror if you want and give it time.

Don't stress it, there's a lot to learn and with experience you'll get more relaxed and more into the music and it will be easier to express it and you will build up a repertoire that is you.

[DWise1]

Our instructor describes the swing-out to the beginning class as being the most difficult move in Lindy and that you need to do at least a few hundred of them to learn it. My intermediate West Coast instructor said the same about the whip (the WCS equivalent -- basically the same move but with a slightly different lead-in and without the swivels).

I still have problems leading it, but I find that our success depends very much on my partner. I keep blaming that on my poor leading, but part of the problem swingouts could be due to my partner (the good ones, I figure, do it right in spite of the quality of my lead).

I was going to list some of the problems -- eg, not committing her back into my right hand by count 3 (equivalent of the "wet noodle" arm; some beginners just kind of float there), not turning enough such that her "speed bumps" head straight for my right hand that's waiting to catch her back, grabbing my arm or shoulder so that I cannot release her at 5-6 -- , but that wouldn't really answer your question.

Mainly, you just need to go out there and log in your hundreds of swingouts. Everybody goes through the same thing, it's just that some perfect it sooner than others.

If you're dancing with a fellow student, you could let him know that you want/need to practice your swingouts and could he please lead a lot of them during this dance. If you are sensitive to your partner's lead in swingouts (as I am to my partner's follow), then you might want to be sure to ask this of a good lead in the beginning and then as you improve you can work with the others.

Another thought would be to revisit the beginning class. After we've completed the beginning class, our instructor lets us take it over and over again for free. This way, we not only help the absolute beginners, but we also get to work on our basics (ever important), the leaders on their lead, and we catch things that we missed the first time around (just yesterday, I learned something new to improve my tuck-turn).

The bottom line is practice, practice, practice.

PS
Could it be the "rubber band" effect? In the most successful swingouts I've seen the girl goes straight in and straight out, no around the guy -- by that I mean that she stays in a straight slot throughout the move and it's the guy's job to move in and out of that slot to get out of her way. At count 3, she's turned 180 degrees and is at full extension with her back in his hand; there's tension there. At 4 he starts to draw her close so that at 5 he can turn and let her pass him as she goes straight out back to where she started from. That drawing-in at 4 is important, because that starts her movement, the momentum of which is what he uses at 5 to "throw" her out. The extension at 3 and the drawing-in at 4 is what gives you the "rubber band" effect.

[jdavidb]

i'm ok at following clear leads, but when it gets to swing outs and my partner gives me that moment in the spotlight, i just cant get with it!

can anyone suggest anything simple (or point me at web based footage) for that swing out moment.........right now i look like a dead mouse dangling on a piece of string!


There are repetitive swingouts in the video of Michelle Detwiler & Larry MacDonald at www.dcswingdancing.com . This clip is under "CCB Jam - April 9, 2004".

Did you know that there really is a move called "dead rat on a string"? Just kidding. Just in case you are talking about switches, I will suggest the Summer Hummer 2001 clips from here: http://www.stevedandrebecca.com/performances.asp . The girl in tan pants in song 1 is doing switches at 1 min 3 seconds in the Song 1 video. It's a good low tempo song too, so you can clearly see what she's doing / how she's doing it. Then in Song 2, Rebecca (during a faster song) does switches at about 1 min 20 seconds. There are also a bunch of very good swingouts in Song 2.

You know those spins at the end of swingouts are leader initiated, right? There are some of those in these clips. I'm just making sure you know those weren't just thrown in by the follower. The guy sends her into those turns which conclude some of the swingouts. There are plenty of regular no spin swingouts in these clips though.

[Sagitta]

welcome to df Betty!! :)

[d nice]

I keep blaming that on my poor leading, but part of the problem swingouts could be due to my partner (the good ones, I figure, do it right in spite of the quality of my lead).

Certainly part of your difficulty will be from the follower, but a good follower does not help you with a swing out, she in fact helps not at all... but instead follows exactly what you lead when you lead it.

I was going to list some of the problems -- eg, not committing her back into my right hand by count 3 (equivalent of the "wet noodle" arm; some beginners just kind of float there), not turning enough such that her "speed bumps" head straight for my right hand that's waiting to catch her back, grabbing my arm or shoulder so that I cannot release her at 5-6

The follower should not turn on her own. She has no responsibility to turn, the leader's job is to turn her, her job is to give him a framework that will allow it and keeping moving in the direction with the momentum that he asked, which he needs to make the follower turn.

Mainly, you just need to go out there and log in your hundreds of swingouts. Everybody goes through the same thing, it's just that some perfect it sooner than others.

Thats it exactly. Sixteen lessons is way to early for you to really worry about doing anythin other than just following exactly what he is leading. Give yourself about 40 hours of instruction and about 250 hours of social dancing before you have these kinds of expectations for yourself.

PS
Could it be the "rubber band" effect? In the most successful swingouts I've seen the girl goes straight in and straight out, no around the guy -- by that I mean that she stays in a straight slot throughout the move and it's the guy's job to move in and out of that slot to get out of her way. At count 3, she's turned 180 degrees and is at full extension with her back in his hand; there's tension there. At 4 he starts to draw her close so that at 5 he can turn and let her pass him as she goes straight out back to where she started from. That drawing-in at 4 is important, because that starts her movement, the momentum of which is what he uses at 5 to "throw" her out. The extension at 3 and the drawing-in at 4 is what gives you the "rubber band" effect.

The description you are giving is really a West Coast styled whip not a swing out.

The swing out isn't about straight lines per se. The follower goes straight forward as she is lead, but as she hits her triple step, she is not pivoting 180 degrees, she is taking a sharp right turn (think a hairpin turn on a motorcycle) which brings her around 180 degrees but in a track parallel to the one she came forward in.

The follower should not be coming forward on 4 by herself or really by her leader. The 3 & are used to turn the follower as she passes the leader, the 4 is used to absorb her momentum to send her out on 5. If the follower is being brought forward on 4 you loose the charateristic energy that lindy hop has.

[HepcatBob]

The description you are giving is really a West Coast styled whip not a swing out.



That's what I was thinking, too.
Everyone I ever took beginner lessons from (Frankie Manning, Eddie Jansson & Russell Sargeant) taught us that both dancers' shoulders should stay pretty close to parallel through the turn (beats 3-&-4). If the follower is going in a straight line in and out, that would be impossible.

[DWise1]

The description you are giving is really a West Coast styled whip not a swing out.



That's what I was thinking, too.
Everyone I ever took beginner lessons from (Frankie Manning, Eddie Jansson & Russell Sargeant) taught us that both dancers' shoulders should stay pretty close to parallel through the turn (beats 3-&-4). If the follower is going in a straight line in and out, that would be impossible.I was trying to describe the trajectory of the body, not the direction it is facing.

And I was describing it as straight in and out as opposed to a wide circular arc to get around the guy who's not moving out of her way. There might be a move like that, but I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be a swingout. Certainly it wouldn't have the same dynamics as a swingout.

And, yes, I do see a lot of similarities between a swingout and a whip. The differences I see are in the girl's swivel steps, her different steps in 3&4 (which I recently learned for the whip but still haven't learned for the swingout), and our lower stance in the swingout. Could someone please describe their other distinctive differences (given that I swing both ways -- East and West).

[Flat Shoes]

Common follower mistakes in a swingout:
On the way in
:arrow: Walks forward byherslf before being led
:arrow: Walking out to the left of the guy instead of straight forward as led
:arrow: Stopping by herself on the way in
:arrow: Turning by herself on her way in
When close (around count 3-5)
:arrow: Not seeking contact with guys right arm (leaning/walking forward before lead)
:arrow: Not parallell but turned slightly to the right, also breaks contact
On the way out
:arrow: Turning herself on the way out before it's lead

Actually very good and experienced dancers do some of these errors, the most common is turning by herself on the way out. Simply beacuse they're used to being led a whip and don't respond to the freedom of the straight swingout. (See below.)

There are many ways to lead a swingout, without talking about reverse swingouts, inside/outside turns etc. For myself I've classified it into three distinct methods.
:arrow: The straigt swingout: Goes in a slot, lead straight forward in, parallel on four and lead staright forward out. The girl faces the direction she's walking until turned by her arm
:arrow: The whip: Same as the previous, but the girls body is turned on the way out sp she's walking out backwards
:arrow: Broken circle: Lead as if going into a circle, but instead of finishing as a circle the girl is released out into open position.

The straight swingout and the whip gives the rubberband effect when lead well. The straigt gives the lady more freedom to express herself on the way out. The broken circle is good when the lady is a bad follower, as she can hardly do anything wrong to disrupt it. It's also a nice variation and can give a cool wow-effect with a quick turn and a fast sendout at the end.

In addition, these variations can be varied even more with different forward leads. You can lead her forward on 1, or you can leave her out there, free to twist until 3. Also you can play with the rythm during the swingout, mainly by hanging and waiting in the closed position for a while, before sending her out a bit quicker.

Also you've ot a couple of different body positions and a couple of different ways of moving your feet (to the side, or cross behind).

And of course you've got all the other variations like inside turn, outside turn, texas tommy, different quickstops, reverse and mirrored swingouts, swingout on 6 count (Reiter) etc.

So the swingout is a science in itself, and it takes a while to master.

A beginning leader should not worry about all these variations, but work on finding a good connection in a basic swingout. After a good connection is mastered, then it's time to work on refining the swingouts and work out the different methods as desribed above. (Note that dividing into three distinct methods are something I've worked out for myself. Noone has actually taught me this, and for others there may be different ways of doing such a categorization.)

[d nice]

There are differnt ways of catagorizing a swing out...

Lindy Hop whip is not a swing out where she goes backwards... there are some specific elements that must be present and the direction the follow faces on 5 is really not the main one.

A swing out is most easily broken down into three forms, forwards, sideways and backwards... the orientation the follow has as she is led out on five.

Leading a follower forward does not give her any more freedom than leading her to exit the move backards. I could match one for one any variation someone could come up with that depends on the follower facing one direction or the other. The fact is that sending her out forward opens a certain number of variations she can't do when lead backwards. Same can be said of being sent out backwards. Sending a follower out sideways perhaps has the greatest amount of freedom for her since she can access a number of variations that would normally only be able to be done if she were facing forward or backwar, because how she chooses to orient herself as the leader releases and she moves into the six.

[BettyB]

wow, you all rock!

just got back from my class /social dance so i got some more swingouts in!

thanks for all the pointers and clip suggestions :D plenty to think about before my next class (tomorrow!)



Sixteen lessons is way to early for you to really worry about doing anythin other than just following exactly what he is leading. Give yourself about 40 hours of instruction and about 250 hours of social dancing before you have these kinds of expectations for yourself.


dont worry d nice! i've gotten over the
"i'll never be able to dance like that"
phase and now i'm into the
"give me a couple of years and i might almost be able to dance like that" stage!

its just a little awkward sometimes when social dancing with a really mixed ability group (ranging from one class to a decade or more of swing) most leads are really great but there are some out there that get a bit miffed when i miss a lead or forget my swivels. i'm just doing my best to not exhibit the dead rodent on a rope look TOO often ;)

[Swing Kitten]

... but there are some out there that get a bit miffed when i miss a lead or forget my swivels.

hmmm... that's too bad... especially since swivels aren't required whatsoever ... they're a common place for a followers styling but that's about it... I put swivels in a similar catagory as musicality (although nothing beats great musicality;) ) ... it's really fun icing but it's not the cake.

I'd say sure work on your swivels but you don't have to do them every swingout... that sort of thing is completely up to you... you have a big enough challange genuinely following their lead.

and the next time a lead gets miffed when you goof give 'em some smack from me!! this is a FUN dance dang-errbety-flurbet!! :P

[Flat Shoes]

There are differnt ways of catagorizing a swing out...

It should be. The above is my take on it.


Lindy Hop whip is not a swing out where she goes backwards... there are some specific elements that must be present and the direction the follow faces on 5 is really not the main one.

The whip to me has always been a swingout-like move, but with a turn of the lady between 4 and 5 and a marked lead backwards when the follower is exiting. While the swingout has a lead forward on 5 and then letting go while merely maintainig the connection in the joined arms.

Since/if you don't agree, feel free to correct me.



Leading a follower forward does not give her any more freedom than leading her to exit the move backards.

When leading the woman out backwards, I tend to lead her all the way (maybe I don't have to? I will test this when dancing tonight). But when leading her out forwards, I just maintain the connection.

[d nice]

A whip uses a stall and acceleration dynamic that must be present. If this is not present it can not be a whip since this is one of the two key elements that create the whip-like effect of the move that gives it its name. The twist or rotation on five on the part of the leader rather than stepping backwards or out. This twist and release has a unique accelerate/stall effect on the followers body as her orientation changes 180* but her movement changes only a minute amount.

A swing out is defined by the stretch and compress and then return to stretch, much like the whip, but lacks the stall/acceleration dynamic. The followers orientation on her release is immaterial to whether it is a swing out or another move.

[DWise1]

and the next time a lead gets miffed when you goof give 'em some smack from me!! this is a FUN dance dang-errbety-flurbet!! :P
When my partner goes off in a direction I hadn't intended, I take the attitude that that's where my lead had sent them, so I need to learn to correct my lead. So hit them with that: "But that's where you led me!"

[DWise1]

A whip uses a stall and acceleration dynamic that must be present. If this is not present it can not be a whip since this is one of the two key elements that create the whip-like effect of the move that gives it its name. The twist or rotation on five on the part of the leader rather than stepping backwards or out. This twist and release has a unique accelerate/stall effect on the followers body as her orientation changes 180* but her movement changes only a minute amount.

A swing out is defined by the stretch and compress and then return to stretch, much like the whip, but lacks the stall/acceleration dynamic. The followers orientation on her release is immaterial to whether it is a swing out or another move.
So is the "stall and acceleration" from the follower's "back, together, forward" on the 3&4? Whereas in the swingout she's maintaining about the same distance from the leader during those counts? (though we leaders are taught to start drawing her towards us during 4 in preparation for "opening the door" on 5)

[d nice]

So is the "stall and acceleration" from the follower's "back, together, forward" on the 3&4? Whereas in the swingout she's maintaining about the same distance from the leader during those counts? (though we leaders are taught to start drawing her towards us during 4 in preparation for "opening the door" on 5)

No the whip I am describing is a lindy hop whip... very different than a West coast whip. There is no coaster step in lindy hop. The follower continues to move in the direction the leader has indicated with the orientation he dictates until her body is redirected somewhere else. The 3 & 4 in both a lindy hop swing out and a lindy hop whip are with the follower attempting to move her center away from her leader the entire time. Just because her body is no longer capable of moving away doesn't mean she starts moving forward on the 4, the leader's body has not started moving backwards so she has recieved no lead to go anywhere.

[DWise1]

So is the "stall and acceleration" from the follower's "back, together, forward" on the 3&4? Whereas in the swingout she's maintaining about the same distance from the leader during those counts? (though we leaders are taught to start drawing her towards us during 4 in preparation for "opening the door" on 5)

No the whip I am describing is a lindy hop whip... very different than a West coast whip. There is no coaster step in lindy hop. The follower continues to move in the direction the leader has indicated with the orientation he dictates until her body is redirected somewhere else. The 3 & 4 in both a lindy hop swing out and a lindy hop whip are with the follower attempting to move her center away from her leader the entire time. Just because her body is no longer capable of moving away doesn't mean she starts moving forward on the 4, the leader's body has not started moving backwards so she has recieved no lead to go anywhere.
I've never heard of a "lindy hop whip". Is there a resource on-line that shows what it looks like?

From what we are taught in beginning class for the swingout, during 4 the leader starts to bring his right hand towards him (and the follower stays in that hand), even though his body has not yet started to move back.

[d nice]

Try http://www.kevinandcarla.com/visuals_videos.htm

Where are you taking lessons at, who from? I don't believe in independant movement of the arm from the body so I teach my students to use their body to lead their partner. While it is possible to use the arm to shape or manipulate movement I firmly believe the arm should not generate any movement in and of itself. Moving the hand/arm on 4 before the body starts moving violates that basic principle (in my methodology) so I teach my students not to do it.

Of course I also follow and it simply does not feel as good to have someone use their arm instead of their body to initiate movement.

[DWise1]

Try http://www.kevinandcarla.com/visuals_videos.htm

Where are you taking lessons at, who from? I don't believe in independant movement of the arm from the body so I teach my students to use their body to lead their partner. While it is possible to use the arm to shape or manipulate movement I firmly believe the arm should not generate any movement in and of itself. Moving the hand/arm on 4 before the body starts moving violates that basic principle (in my methodology) so I teach my students not to do it.

Of course I also follow and it simply does not feel as good to have someone use their arm instead of their body to initiate movement.
Shesha Marvin, OCSwing.com.

Which one of the videos has a lindy hop whip in it? Just from the description, I don't see how I'd be able to tell that what I was looking at wasn't a swingout.

[Flat Shoes]

Which one of the videos has a lindy hop whip in it? Just from the description, I don't see how I'd be able to tell that what I was looking at wasn't a swingout.
kc_barswingona_2003.avi ca 1.53-1.55 it ends up with Carla in open circling Kevin.

At least this is what I consider to be a whip.

[d nice]

That is the spot i was thinking in that video. I'll try and find some smaller clips though, those will take a while to download if you have dial-up.

Shesha is a good teacher, I think we just disagree on what the best way to lead a swing out is. Experienced dancers/teachers can disagree on things, there isn't one "right way" per se... but I teach mine the way I do because it is consistant with how the rest of the moves work, the body creates, the arm manipulates.

[swinginstyle]

Speaking of lindy whip versus swingout, I finally learned that there really is a difference. This knowledge came from a friend in KC. I guess the swingout is what you would see done in old Whitey's Lindy Hoppers clips with the girl facing away on the latter counts. The lindy whip would have the lady squaring up to the guy on the latter counts. Never knew that until now.

[suek]

Speaking of lindy whip versus swingout, I finally learned that there really is a difference. This knowledge came from a friend in KC. I guess the swingout is what you would see done in old Whitey's Lindy Hoppers clips with the girl facing away on the latter counts. The lindy whip would have the lady squaring up to the guy on the latter counts. Never knew that until now.no no no no no no no.
the follow does NOT have to face away for the move to be a swingout. and she doesn't have to square up for it to be a whip. no. that's not the distinction at all. far as I know, the facing away or squaring up is driven by the way she's led (forward, sideways, backward) on the 5/6, combined with personal styling. Damon will dopeslap me if I got any of this wrong. Not to worry. But since it's 2:15 am and we've just been released from dress rehearsal (I'm dancing bal/charleston with Damon Saturday night at our studio's showcase), I'm punchy enough to post my not-so-humble opinion.

[Flat Shoes]

:lol: It's not supposed to be easy!

It seems to me a swingout can be led so that the lady's facing different directions (forward, backward, sideways) on her way out. But while lead in a whip, she is force to move out backwards.

In a whip you have the 'whip action' on 5, which turns the lady around so that's she's prepared to leave backwards. In this whip action the lady is turned with the body and with help of the guys right hand on her back. Then she's lead backwards by some pressure from the guys left arm.

You can often see a distinct pattern from the guys left arm, as it is kind of stretched out and prepared for this leading. To me, too much of this looks a bit forced. Often you can also see the guy sort of tilting to the left at the same time. I don't like that look either.

But as far as i understand, the whip is defined by the whip action at around the 5 beat, and this forces to girl to leave backwards.

[swinginstyle]

Speaking of lindy whip versus swingout, I finally learned that there really is a difference. This knowledge came from a friend in KC. I guess the swingout is what you would see done in old Whitey's Lindy Hoppers clips with the girl facing away on the latter counts. The lindy whip would have the lady squaring up to the guy on the latter counts. Never knew that until now.no no no no no no no.
the follow does NOT have to face away for the move to be a swingout. and she doesn't have to square up for it to be a whip. no. that's not the distinction at all. far as I know, the facing away or squaring up is driven by the way she's led (forward, sideways, backward) on the 5/6, combined with personal styling. Damon will dopeslap me if I got any of this wrong. Not to worry. But since it's 2:15 am and we've just been released from dress rehearsal (I'm dancing bal/charleston with Damon Saturday night at our studio's showcase), I'm punchy enough to post my not-so-humble opinion.

Alright, alright. So, I know that it is a led action or the follow can actually add styling. I can explain the difference between a westie whip versus a lindy swingout, but someone was saying there is a difference between a lindy whip versus swingout. Pray tell what is the difference then?

[d nice]

Alright, alright. So, I know that it is a led action or the follow can actually add styling. I can explain the difference between a westie whip versus a lindy swingout, but someone was saying there is a difference between a lindy whip versus swingout. Pray tell what is the difference then?

A whip uses a stall and acceleration dynamic that must be present. If this is not present it can not be a whip since this is one of the two key elements that create the whip-like effect of the move that gives it its name. The twist or rotation on five on the part of the leader rather than stepping backwards or out. This twist and release has a unique accelerate/stall effect on the followers body as her orientation changes 180* but her movement changes only a minute amount.

A swing out is defined by the stretch and compress and then return to stretch, much like the whip, but lacks the stall/acceleration dynamic. The followers orientation on her release is immaterial to whether it is a swing out or another move.

You can think of the primary difference in lindy hop swing out and the lindy hop whip as whether or not the leader is executing a head/body spotting technique. If it is a swing out the leader moves his body so that its relation to his partner is stable through the whole move, but the head leads the body into the turn if it is a backwards swing out for the follower. In a whip the leaders body begins to lag behind behind the followers around four still looking a little with body and head in the original direction he faced on 1. On five the leaders head and body both twist around to point in that direction again and THEN steps in the direction. The followers body gets turned in the twist but does not travel until after she is facing in a new direction. This is the whip effect. This twist techniocally does not have to send her out completey backwards... it could send her more sideways than backwards by under-rotation or over-rotation.

There is no force or push being generated by either arm, it is all in the waist/shoulder.