"Disrespectful" touches?

[Pacion]

When I was growing up, my parents always said that if a guy were to playfully smack you on your bum, he was being "disrespectful".

I think it applied if he was friend/boyfriend, but no longer applied if you were married :wink:

Last weekend, a male acquaintance did this to me and I was :shock: he also moved away too quickly for me to say anything. The thing that was frustrating though is that he has done it in the past and I managed to tell him at that time, I did not "appreciate" it. Although I didn't elaborate further, personally, it also suggests a familiarity which is not there. He is a dancer and younger than I am :roll: :lol: so it maybe that I am mentally throwing him daggers for no real reason. :oops: He is a total flirt also so I don't think it is anything "personal" but it is a "custom" that I have been brought up with and I do feel like throttling him/anyone that does that "without the appropriate licence" :oops: :lol:

Short of resorting to some of the tips in the "Sweet Revenge" thread, especially NeoDevins "Handbook" :lol: , any thoughts/suggestions?

[Sagitta]

It is one thing to be a flirt and another to repeatedly do something that bothers you. My advice since he makes his attack and flits away is to corner the guy, take him off by himself, make sure that he knows you are serious and then tell him that you don't like being touched that way and not to do it ever again. Make sure you bring up the fact that you said once it bothered you, and he repeated the offense, and ask him what didn't he get about you saying not to do it again. That should settle it. I he is contrite and you feel sorry for the guy you can always soften teh blow afterwards by saying that you know he didn't mean anything by it, that you know he is a harmless flirt...blah blah blah. But say that does not mean you will tolerate, 1., 2., 3.....from him.

[Pacion]

Thanks Sagitta. I know, I might have to do something like that and will have to practice talking to my pillow about it. I don't see him very often so will have to prime myself to make him realise that I am serious when I say that I don't appreciate it :?

[Flat Shoes]

Once uppon a time I used to do this with a friend of mine. One day she told me to stop, and I did. She got a new boyfriend about that time, so I think it was related.

Since then, I've never done it to anyone who I wasn't in a relationship with. Cause these days you'll never know who won't like it, but aren't able to tell you so, but instead will walk around spreading bad vibes about you or even file a sexual harrasment complaint against you.

I think it's sad, it's such an innocent thing to do. Just a little physcial playfulness. And it should be so easy to just say 'stop' for those who don't like it. But unfortunately there are a lot of women who are just waiting to make a big deal out of something like this.

Personally I'd prefer a little less uptight interaction between men and women in general. And here dancing enters. The closeness between men and women who are not in a relatonship, but sharing a dance, is a closeness that would many places not be accepted at all of the dancefloor. But since it's part of the dance, it's common and there's and accepted excuse for the behaviour.

Dancing has to with sexuality, man and woman playing together. But it doesn't have to be about sex, we can play together but that doesn't mean we're going to have sex together. It's not expected.

What I'm missing is for the society to allow a little bit more playfullness in other social situations too. Not that I smack bottoms when dancing (not normally anyway), cause it's not a part of the dance. But a friendly smack on the bottom in other environment comes very natural to me. While some dance moves would be inapropriate in that setting. It's about sexuality and apreciation of the other person, but it's not about having sex. Just like dance, but in another setting. And I miss that.

Btw, so there's no misunderstandings. I respect your right to say no, if you don't like it. This post is about having the opportunity to test limits and getting a simple no, instead of being labeled a male chauvinistic pig.

[Genesius Redux]

Well, sweetie--

Apparently you have a butt that's cute enough to get smacked, so there's something. Because the protocol is generally only to do that to absolutely the cutest butts.

Now, I'm not a butt-smacker in general. But I will on occasion do a kind of playful smack--usually with someone I know very well, and fully expecting a mock tirade in response. But we're a bit freer with that sort of thing in the states, and especially among actors.

So at the risk of having my head handed to me on a platter, I'd say so long as he doesn't make a habit of it maybe just take it for a compliment and shrug it off?

[Pacion]

So at the risk of having my head handed to me on a platter,

:lol: GR. Don't worry, the platter will be made out of the finest silver :wink:

Thanks Flat Shoes. I am very playful. Incredibly so too! The thing is though, as I said, growing up, I was told (make that drummed into my head) that a smack on the bum was disrespectful/over familiar, period.

In dancing, I will playfully touch the guy almost anywhere my hands can touch. :D But, there are certain areas/zones on his body (and similarly mine), in my opinion, that are "off limits". I will go "back to back", "hip to hip", "bum to bum" but that hand on bum, hmmmm. I do think that this guy is being harmless but it is also a familiarity from acquaintances that I am unaccustomed to. :oops:

It is interesting how society/cultures have evolved.

[pygmalion]

I'm with flat shoes on this one. For me, personally, a hand on the bum is a no-no, unless the person knows me (in the Biblical sense LOL :oops: :lol: .) But you have to tell him. Set the limit, then he becomes the bad guy if he doesn't respect it.

[Pacion]

I have told him Pygamlion, except that we see each other roughly every 2-3 months? So he could always "claim" to forget? :roll: I know though, I will have to get the fangs out if/when it happens again :twisted:

[pygmalion]

Just say the word, and I'll come beat him up for you! :shock: :lol: Never underestimate the power of a woman with some TaeKwonDo and Krav Maga under her belt. :wink: :lol:

[Pacion]

:shock: Okay. Umm, what ever you do, please promise you won't hurt him! He is a sweety, even if he can't control where his hands go sometimes :? :lol:

I know that other women would "love it" but, as the sign says in some shops here "No handling of the fruit unless you intend to buy" :wink:

[tsb]

unfortunately, i seem to come across plenty of women who have boundary issues (according to one study one women in four has been sexually abused) and CAN'T speak up for themselves so my perspective is influenced by that. so i have very little sympathy for guys who don't respect limits. (and i acknowledge having said that, i don't think these women have much business pursuing partnered dancing under uncontrolled conditions (assuming that they haven't begun to identify & deal with these issues - which can result from experiences other than sexual abuse - there are other ways to violate boundaries from a position of power or authority).

i agree with sagitta, with the following improvement - start pinching his ear with your fingernails - and 'forget' when he complains. i'll bet he gets the point quickly - and you aren't affecting his ability to dance.

[danceguy]

Pacion - Hmm, I think telling your friend that you sincerely dislike his incessant bun smacking would be the best. I've always had very large personal boundaries and I let people know up front if they've crossed them. I know some people think that this kind of hanky-panky is all in good fun, but if you don't set this guy straight he'll just keep on doing it. :?

Pygmalion, I didn't know you studied Krav Maga! However, in this case I think some good ol' Chin Na (Chinese Grappling) or Aikido would be perfect!

One thing I used to do with fanny smackers is catch their hand and then apply a quick joint lock or a put some pain into one of their pressure points (just ask Sara how to do this!). Then just gently force them to the ground and I'm quite sure they will not try to touch your buns anytime soon! :D :P

SG

[Bob]

I have told him Pygamlion, except that we see each other roughly every 2-3 months? So he could always "claim" to forget? I know though, I will have to get the fangs out if/when it happens again


If I tell someone that what they are doing offends me, it will hurt their feelings. I don't mean I would ever scream at or belittle someone, but a very serious "don't do that again" can be quite cutting.

If they honestly don't want to offend you they will be very careful about not doing whatever you told them not to do. If they "forget" a stern warning, the warning may need to get a little more harsh.

For instance "no, I will not dance with you. I told you to stop grabbing my butt and you continue to do it. Get within three feet of me and I will pluck your eyeball from its socket "

(ok, so the kill bill approach may be farther than you want to go :? )

[Pacion]

:lol: Bob I have thought about "rugby tackling" him the next time but thought it might just be a bit excessive. But, a great excuse to go and do rugby training (which I have never done before, but running with guys in shorts has to have it's down side) :wink:

[squirrel]

I have very mixed ideas about 'disrespectful touches'... if I like the guy, I allow him to be quite 'disrespectful', as compared to guys I don't like...

So I think that at least for me it all comes down to 'being attracted' by the guy... or being close friends with him :)

Otherwise... I make it very clear they should stay away...

So if you dislike it, just tell him... and don't wait until he does it again! Just go to him immediately the first time he says 'Hi' and tell him what you think...

[Bob]

Bob I have thought about "rugby tackling" him the next time but thought it might just be a bit excessive. But, a great excuse to go and do rugby training (which I have never done before, but running with guys in shorts has to have it's down side)


hah! I don't know if that drives the right behavior!

I tell ya what, if we ever meet in person and you promise to rugby tackle me (but leave my eyes and other body parts intact), then I promise to repeatedly grab your butt!

:shock: :D

[MacMoto]

fanny smackers
:!: :shock: SG, can I just mention in passing that this sounds like something totally different in UK English...? :oops:

[pygmalion]

Yup. The good old cultural divide. Funny. That phrase sounds kind of old fashioned and quaint in American English. Hmm. :? I assume the same is not true in UK English? (Don't give details, please. Not if they're adult-only material. I'll take your word for it. LOL)

[Bob]

At Ford we have to call the books "Workshop Manuals" because it is perfectly acceptable to use the term "Service Manual" in American English, but you really don't want to use that term in England

:lol:

[tj]

:lol: Bob I have thought about "rugby tackling" him the next time but thought it might just be a bit excessive. But, a great excuse to go and do rugby training (which I have never done before, but running with guys in shorts has to have it's down side) :wink:

So *that* explains the scrum on the dancefloor last Saturday! :wink:

[Phil Owl]

http://www.lasalsakids.com/dance/art01.htm

Very good article

[Pacion]

I have very mixed ideas about 'disrespectful touches'... if I like the guy, I allow him to be quite 'disrespectful', as compared to guys I don't like...

So I think that at least for me it all comes down to 'being attracted' by the guy... or being close friends with him :)

The thing is Squirrel, as I said, it is not something "that is done" unless, as Pygmalion put it, it is done by someone you are familiar with, as in the Bibical sense :lol: Now, whether I am attracted to the guy or not does not come into the equation :?

:lol: Bob I have thought about "rugby tackling" him the next time but thought it might just be a bit excessive. But, a great excuse to go and do rugby training (which I have never done before, but running with guys in shorts has to have it's down side) :wink:

So *that* explains the scrum on the dancefloor last Saturday! :wink:

:shock: it wasn't me :shock: :lol:

lol Bob. I will try to remember that you are partial to the odd tackle or two :lol:

Thanks Phil Owl. Funnily enough, I have read/come across that article before and I think it is so true. (which is probably why grinding leaves me cold :lol: )

[Sarah]

I have told him Pygamlion, except that we see each other roughly every 2-3 months? So he could always "claim" to forget? :roll: I know though, I will have to get the fangs out if/when it happens again :twisted:
and
Okay. Umm, what ever you do, please promise you won't hurt him! He is a sweety, even if he can't control where his hands go sometimes

I have a harsh word or two for you, Pacion, after reading these two quotes. You are not expecting this guy to behave as a rational adult and take responsibility for his own behavior, so of course he doesn't. Can't control his hands indeed! He `forgets', accidently-on-purpose, when it suits him. You are currently training him that that's an OK way to treat you, probably out of a desire to be `nice'. The expectation of `nice' can be such a handicap for women.
You need to inform him, firmly, and with no room for compromise or deferring to his poor widdle feelings, preferably in public (since a private request has been ignored) that his hands do not belong on your bum without your express permission, and that if it happens again you will be Angry.
And don't worry about embarrassing him - he deserves it, or hurting his feelings - they're his responsibility since you've asked nicely once.

Your punishment is to write out Pygmalion's sig line 200 times. :twisted:

Cheers
Sarah. Have wristlocks. Don't usually need them.

[Pacion]

Your punishment is to write out Pygmalion's sig line 200 times. :twisted:

:shock: Can I use the "copy & paste" functions :lol:

I have a harsh word or two for you, Pacion, after reading these two quotes. You are not expecting this guy to behave as a rational adult and take responsibility for his own behavior, so of course he doesn't. Can't control his hands indeed! He `forgets', accidently-on-purpose, when it suits him. You are currently training him that that's an OK way to treat you, probably out of a desire to be `nice'. The expectation of `nice' can be such a handicap for women.

:lol: Sarah. I laugh, now (!) but in all seriousness, I agree with you in that I probably should have broken his wrist :twisted: the first time he did it - I probably was not stern enough to convey to him that I was serious when I said not to do that, men being from Mars and all that. Having thought about it some more (as it was obviously something on my mind which resulted in the creation of this thread) there is no more "Miss Nice" and whilst I would not deliberately embarass him/cause a scene, if it does happen again, then, he will be told firmly that his hands have no business where they were. Ultimately, if he is not prepared to "do that little thing" then I will just have to be prepared to "lose his acquaintance" :( or literally, never turn my back on him. Mind you, just remembering now, that he has also done it when we danced, so I will have to get more explosive about it.

[tsb]

I have told him Pygamlion, except that we see each other roughly every 2-3 months? So he could always "claim" to forget? :roll: I know though, I will have to get the fangs out if/when it happens again :twisted:
and
Okay. Umm, what ever you do, please promise you won't hurt him! He is a sweety, even if he can't control where his hands go sometimes

I have a harsh word or two for you, Pacion, after reading these two quotes. You are not expecting this guy to behave as a rational adult and take responsibility for his own behavior, so of course he doesn't. Can't control his hands indeed! He `forgets', accidently-on-purpose, when it suits him. You are currently training him that that's an OK way to treat you, probably out of a desire to be `nice'. The expectation of `nice' can be such a handicap for women.
You need to inform him, firmly, and with no room for compromise or deferring to his poor widdle feelings, preferably in public (since a private request has been ignored) that his hands do not belong on your bum without your express permission, and that if it happens again you will be Angry.
And don't worry about embarrassing him - he deserves it, or hurting his feelings - they're his responsibility since you've asked nicely once.

Your punishment is to write out Pygmalion's sig line 200 times. :twisted:

Cheers
Sarah. Have wristlocks. Don't usually need them.

i've been hoping to hear something like this from the feminine perspective.

[Bob]

Ultimately, if he is not prepared to "do that little thing" then I will just have to be prepared to "lose his acquaintance" or literally, never turn my back on him. Mind you, just remembering now, that he has also done it when we danced, so I will have to get more explosive about it.


I can't help thinking that you must have a world class a--- umm, really nice bum, if this guy is drawn to it like a moth to a flame!

:wink:

[Flat Shoes]

:lol: Sarah. I laugh, now (!) but in all seriousness, I agree with you in that I probably should have broken his wrist :twisted: the first time he did it

This is why I don't like it when women come together and start talking about these things. You women always seem to talk each other into being harder, meaner, tougher and less compassionate.... or in a single word: overreact. :(

I thought you handled it perfectly the first time! Many guys would have understood you and respected you. The fact that this man didn't get it, doesn't mean all guys who step over the line once should have 'their wrist broken'.

It's all about having respect for and a little patience with each other. If you can't allow a mistake without making a big deal, everything will just become all tense and unnatural. Let the reaction fit the crime. A first pat on the ass is a small offence. Not respecting your 'no' is a bigger offence, but could be a misunderstanding. Repeatedly not respecting you demands taking the issue further.

[squirrel]

I come from a country where women are not so much into 'equality' things... men in my country still open a door for a woman, offer her their seat in the bus and help her get off the transportation means...
That is why I believe women in my country tend to accept such behaviour more easily... it's sort of a compliment... of course, it depends on the woman... I hate it only if the guy seems to be drooling all over me... I like composed men, that's why... if one of these composed guys does it, I do not take much offence... I might strike back, laugh at him, jokingly fight him... but let me tell you there are creepy guys I don't even like to shake hands with... their touch is sticky... sleezy... :x
Yes women do overreact... but it's normal...

[Sabor]

yes.. it could get quite annoying couldn't it?.. i mean like what does it take for ladies to understand?! :shock: .. no means NO! :oops: ... :mrgreen:

[lundasalsa]

In dancing, I will playfully touch the guy almost anywhere my hands can touch. :D But, there are certain areas/zones on his body (and similarly mine), in my opinion, that are "off limits".
I somehow can't imagine you playfully touching his knees and ankles all the time. Does that mean that you consider those body parts too intimate and off-limits? :)

[Sarah]

:lol: Sarah. I laugh, now (!) but in all seriousness, I agree with you in that I probably should have broken his wrist :twisted: the first time he did it

This is why I don't like it when women come together and start talking about these things. You women always seem to talk each other into being harder, meaner, tougher and less compassionate.... or in a single word: overreact. :(

As I recall, the worst thing I suggested was publicly embarrassing a man who repeatedly demonstrated that he did not feel the need to control himself.
I don't wish to speak for Pacion, but I think that she was expressing a certain amount of quite justifiable anger, using a literary device known as hyperbole.
Denying and concealing annoyance, (in order to be seen to be `compassionate') until the annoyance turns into anger often produces a result that could be seen as overreacting by an outside observer.


I thought you handled it perfectly the first time! Many guys would have understood you and respected you. The fact that this man didn't get it, doesn't mean all guys who step over the line once should have 'their wrist broken'.

If she had handled it well, her arse would not have been touched again. If she had handled it `perfectly' damage, both physical and psychological, to both parties would be minimised.

Oh, and Flat Shoes - I don't honestly care wether or not you like me sharing my experience and thoughts with Pacion, or anyone else for that matter.

Sarah.

[Sarah]

Your punishment is to write out Pygmalion's sig line 200 times. :twisted:

:shock: Can I use the "copy & paste" functions :lol:

Yes, but you have to cut and paste each letter individually :twisted::twisted:

:lol: Sarah. I laugh, now (!) but in all seriousness, I agree with you in that I probably should have broken his wrist :twisted: the first time he did it - I probably was not stern enough to convey to him that I was serious when I said not to do that, men being from Mars and all that.

That's something that I don't believe at all! People are people are people, and people should be treated with a certain minimum level of respect. This respect includes treating them as resonable adults capable of self control, of knowing and being able to express their needs and desires, of managing their own feelings and of dealing with the consequences of their actions.
If you've made it clear that the consequences of a smack on the butt will be a pissed-off Pacion, then he really has only himslf to blame when he gets a pissed-off Pacion. Of course he may not see it like that initially.......

Good luck in however you choose to deal.

Cheers
Sarah

[Genesius Redux]

I agree completely with Flat Shoes. Women overreact all the time. Breaking wrists indeed!

A simple wheel kick would do the trick.... :wink:

[Sarah]

I agree completely with Flat Shoes. Women overreact all the time. Breaking wrists indeed

Breaks generally heal better than dislocations - see, I can be compassionate :D

Cheers
Sarah

[Genesius Redux]

I agree completely with Flat Shoes. Women overreact all the time. Breaking wrists indeed

Breaks generally heal better than dislocations - see, I can be compassionate :D

Cheers
Sarah

And that's very feminine of you, Sarah! :wink: 8) :lol:

[Sarah]

I agree completely with Flat Shoes. Women overreact all the time. Breaking wrists indeed

Breaks generally heal better than dislocations - see, I can be compassionate :D

Cheers
Sarah

And that's very feminine of you, Sarah! :wink: 8) :lol:

Oh <curtsey blush flutter-eyelashes demure-look-at-ground> to you too, GR

Cheers
Sarah

[tsb]

I agree completely with Flat Shoes. Women overreact all the time.

the feelings that are prompted by the sense of not being heard (or respected) can be very powerful. if more guys understood that listening was not just comprehension but also making sure the other person got the requisite level of reassurance that they'd been heard, women would not need to 'overreact'.

still, those who engage in frequent facetious/flirty/whatever type behavior or conversation should not be surprised should not take them seriously when they are being serious; crying 'wolf' has its consequences.

and there are those who may be responding out of a displaced anger, some sort of hot button or emotional land mine. even so, it is the foolish man who tries to respond to a woman's anger by telling her she shouldn't feel that way, or by defending their own motives - or worst of all, by checking the calendar & then shrugging... :P


A simple wheel kick would do the trick.... :wink:

stomping on the instep is much more effective - especially in stilletto heels.

[Bob]

I agree completely with Flat Shoes. Women overreact all the time. Breaking wrists indeed!

A simple wheel kick would do the trick....



Haha!


Let me know when we get back around to:

:shock: ::YAHHH!! POINK! :: :wink:


^ Plucking out eyeballs like Uma!

[cocodrilo]

Fannies and bums aside, I agree with tsb on the "boundaries issue" and with Squirrel as well when she said it depends on whether she liked the guy or not! :wink: I like getting spanked/touched lightly if it's coming from someone I like & know and there is mutual respect. I'm wondering if guys mind us girls stroking their chest hair or hugging them at random, or doing little "tush grabs"(well, this happens in MY circles anyhow...)?
Guys care to comment on this? :D

Bob- in Japan, when you stay at a hotel, you may get a call from the front desk asking whether you'll be wanting the "morning service". Don't get your hopes up- it usually features toast and your choice of coffee or tea! :lol:

[squirrel]

Exactly my point, Cocodrilo!
I slap guys in public, hug them if I feel like it, sit in their lap or let them hug me... some kiss my hand after dancing, some kiss my cheeck and some... my brow! (what did you expect... :roll: ???)
maybe they feel the same way as we do... let's say I'm an attractive female, but others are not... and regardless of how attractive, some females are AGRESSIVE!

[Flat Shoes]

If she had handled it well, her arse would not have been touched again. If she had handled it `perfectly' damage, both physical and psychological, to both parties would be minimised.

I don't agree. There's no single reaction that is suitable to handle all kind of guys. Some guys will respect a no. Other's would respect no less than a shovel over the forehead. That doesn't mean every guy should be hit with a shovel, just to make sure.


Oh, and Flat Shoes - I don't honestly care wether or not you like me sharing my experience and thoughts with Pacion, or anyone else for that matter.

I was talking in general on a public forum. I've never attacked you personally, I just disagree. Whether you care about my opinions or not, are up to you.

[Flat Shoes]

I agree completely with Flat Shoes. Women overreact all the time.

Some do, many thankfully don't. But unfortunately many of those who do overreact tend to encourage others to overreact too. :(

On the other hand, there are also those who are afraid to speak up. And that can be just as much a problem, because it's difficult to tell whether or not you've stepped over the line if noone says anything. :(

The bottom line is, a guy is supposed to be very sensitive and understanding and pick up all the small signals. If not, you risk ending up with a broken wrist :lol:

Or we can be on the safe side, always be a gentleman. But that is not so much fun. :lol:

What I'm trying to say, women, are this. Don't be afraid to react, but don't overreact. Accept the fact that men are not perfect, and sometimes do step wrong. But for those guys that keep stepping wrong, after being told off... Knock yourself out. Break those wrists if you like :D With my complements. :twisted:

[Bob]

Flat Shoes, I believe you are correct.

Using rudeness to prevent rudeness is like going to war in the name of peace.

I have no intention of offending anyone anywhere. However, it does happen. If someone overreacts and embarrasses me when they could have just quietly said "It bothers me when you do that, please refrain", I will be very offended.

I won't return the rudeness though. I will think very, very bad things of that person and walk away. As quickly as that a friendship or potential friendship can be damaged or destroyed.

And losing friends (or potential friends) is always tragic.

[Genesius Redux]

Fannies and bums aside, I agree with tsb on the "boundaries issue" and with Squirrel as well when she said it depends on whether she liked the guy or not! :wink: I like getting spanked/touched lightly if it's coming from someone I like & know and there is mutual respect.

Woo hoo! Do you like having your earlobes nibbled when you're brought into a cuddle? I can nibble quite respectfully.... :wink: :lol:

[pygmalion]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

No comment!

[Bob]

Woo hoo! Do you like having your earlobes nibbled when you're brought into a cuddle? I can nibble quite respectfully....



You know, I am looking all over the net... but nobody teaches that step. I looked under "earlobe styling" but to no avail.

:cry:

[SDsalsaguy]

You know, I am looking all over the net... but nobody teaches that step. I looked under "earlobe styling" but to no avail.
That's because it's listed under "nibbler styling!" :lol:

The one who's earlobes are being nibbled isn't, after all, the one who's doing the styling... :wink:

[Bob]

hmm, yeah that does make sense!

haha!

[tsb]

Flat Shoes, I believe you are correct.

Using rudeness to prevent rudeness is like going to war in the name of peace.


actually, it isn't. now before you start tuning up, i agree that if you want to win someone over to your way of thinking & have the time & patience to endure insult & injury, then repaying rudeness with kindness & understanding is the way to go. but it's not always our job to change someone else's way of thinking. and in the short run, someone may be suffering needlessly. in these cases, a show of power or confrontation is often the most effective way of limiting bad behavior.


I have no intention of offending anyone anywhere. However, it does happen. If someone overreacts and embarrasses me when they could have just quietly said "It bothers me when you do that, please refrain", I will be very offended.


being on the receiving end of an emotional outburst is no fun. and embarrassment, by definition, is a feeling that no one enjoys. it sucks. but we all have the choice as to whether to feel embarrassed about any situation.

one of the typical pranks we played during college was to swipe somebody's clothes & keys while they were in the shower. i'll never forget how one guy calmly wrapped himself up in a shower curtain like a toga, went to the front desk and had someone let him into his room (coed dorm). he wasn't embarrassed at all - and he got his revenge by dissembling the perpetrator's bed and reassembling it - in the women's restroom. i think he was from the detroit area too (I went to U-M in ann arbor).

i'm not suggesting that this is the same as stepping an emotional land mine of some sort & being the target of displaced anger. but i do suggest that when it's possible, instead of responding to that kind of emotional outburst with emotions of one's own, a more productive choice would be to try and comment in a non-judgmental way that it's obvious that they feel very strongly about that's happened. that tends to deflate the existing tension. and on the flip side, the worst thing to say would be "don't you think you're overreacting?" - almost guaranteed to provoke a defensive response. (along with other typical phrases like "what's your problem?") . i use aikido principles in my lead, think of this as verbal/emotional aikido. doesn't always work though; some folks are emotional porcupines and they don't even know they have quills.

i like to look at it like dancing with a partner with lousy frame, spaghetti arms, vulcan death grip on your upper arm with her left hand & her left armpit on your right wrist - and sings along, loudly, off-key! you use the tools & skills you have to improve the experience for both of you as best you can until your 3 minutes are up. you smile, say 'thank you', walk (or run) away and if need be, you can smile & say 'no thank you ' should that person ask you to dance again if you don't think you can deal with it.

go blue!
LS&A '83

[cocodrilo]

There's always one Peruvian guy who starts kissing my neck when we dance. We are friends, but I think he tends go a little overboard. When I say "Hey, cut that out!", he sez "What, don't you like it?" "OF COURSE I LIKE IT, but you shouldn't do it, 'cause I'm not going to go home with you- my SO wouldn't like that very much!!!!"

[Bob]

I can be the butt of a joke as well as anyone, and that doesn't embarass me (so long as the joke is not mean spirited).

However, I treat everyone with dignity and respect and I expect the same. An unwarranted over reaction is just as bad as an inappropriate touch. There is really no place for either in polite society.

(Go Blue!)

[tsb]

I can be the butt of a joke as well as anyone, and that doesn't embarass me (so long as the joke is not mean spirited).

However, I treat everyone with dignity and respect and I expect the same. An unwarranted over reaction is just as bad as an inappropriate touch. There is really no place for either in polite society.


true. but since emotional land mines do exist, it doesn't hurt to study the concepts of social/emotional triage to stop the initial bleeding (which may be your own)...


(Go Blue!)

i hear malik hairston wants to "carmelo-ize" oregon. good luck (and good riddance if he plans to go "one & done"...)! go blue!

[Sarah]

If she had handled it well, her arse would not have been touched again. If she had handled it `perfectly' damage, both physical and psychological, to both parties would be minimised.

I don't agree. There's no single reaction that is suitable to handle all kind of guys. Some guys will respect a no. Other's would respect no less than a shovel over the forehead. That doesn't mean every guy should be hit with a shovel, just to make sure.

Flat Shoes, you are reading things into my posts which just aren't there. Please show me where I said there was a one-size-fits-all solution to this kind of problem. I don't believe that. In fact I believe that I have stated that I have wristlocks, and that I don't often need them. IOW, I usually find less drastic solutions to problems like this.

It is my opinion however, that if Pacion provided a straighforward and unambiguous no, and if her problem guy ignored it, then protecting his feelings is no longer any responsibility of her's.


Oh, and Flat Shoes - I don't honestly care wether or not you like me sharing my experience and thoughts with Pacion, or anyone else for that matter.

I was talking in general on a public forum. I've never attacked you personally, I just disagree. Whether you care about my opinions or not, are up to you.

Your initial sentence
This is why I don't like it when women come together and start talking about these things. You women always seem to talk each other into being harder, meaner, tougher and less compassionate.... or in a single word: overreact.
IME women tend through their socialization to err on the side of being too careful of others feelings and compassionate to the point where they themslves are damaged. I think that Pacion may have done so in this case and lost her best chance to halt her problem's behavior without causing anyone embarrassment.
We need to talk about these things in order to reassure ourselves that being upset instead of flattered by an unwanted touch is normal and sane, and that its OK to do something about it. This is important, and I see your comment quoted above in response to my post as an unhelpful and somewhat arrogant strike against this idea.

Sarah. Feminist, 'cause its better for eveyone.

[cocodrilo]

Boy would you guys get a kick out of this country! Some people go up and goose each other , as a joke! (Usually guys do this to guys.) Lots of sexual harrassment, too("seku-hara" in Japanese!). Guys don't dare try this with me as I'm taller than most guys and they know I could probably kick the $4I+ out of them if they did!

[squirrel]

Hmmm... I have friends (girls) how have a hard time telling a guy to get lost... they accept the guys to come and pick them up, go out to have a coffee with them... and don't know how to tell them "#$@% off!!! I don't like you, I'm not interested" in such a way as to stop them! Sometimes they ask me to intervene and 'save them'! Why? It's soooooooooo easy...
Just tell them you're not interested, in a nice way... if they don't get it then you can tell them to get lost in a not-so-nice way...
Guys don't have a problem refusing... why should we?
The above happens in the local salsa scene... I am tired of people around me who can't just take care of themselves! It's darn boring! And in a way I agree with Sarah! Just state what you want... try not to offend... if not possible, then offend!
I have to accepts in my classes this guy who is bothering girls, more or less... he has this 'slimy' touch... I loathe it! I can barely dance with him! But I need good leaders, and he's ok... this doesn't mean I have to put up with his s$%t! He's so close of getting thrown out! I mean, he's been warned! If he doesn't stop, I'll tell him to stop coming! Period!

[Flat Shoes]

If she had handled it well, her arse would not have been touched again. If she had handled it `perfectly' damage, both physical and psychological, to both parties would be minimised.

I don't agree. There's no single reaction that is suitable to handle all kind of guys. Some guys will respect a no. Other's would respect no less than a shovel over the forehead. That doesn't mean every guy should be hit with a shovel, just to make sure.

Flat Shoes, you are reading things into my posts which just aren't there. Please show me where I said there was a one-size-fits-all solution to this kind of problem.

There is no way you can now in advance whether or not a guy will repsect a no. In order to be 'sure' that her arse will never be touched again, which was your requirement for handling the situation satisfactory, she will have to resort to a one-size-fits-all solution. You didn't say it, but it's the logical consequence of what you said.


In my oppinion, she handled it perfectly. She said 'NO!'. Most guys will respect it, some won't. For those that don't respect it, stronger actions need to be taken. But that's impossible to know in advance. (Unless the guy has a reputation/history that says otherwise.)


It is my opinion however, that if Pacion provided a straighforward and unambiguous no, and if her problem guy ignored it, then protecting his feelings is no longer any responsibility of her's.

100% agreed!


Your initial sentence
This is why I don't like it when women come together and start talking about these things. You women always seem to talk each other into being harder, meaner, tougher and less compassionate.... or in a single word: overreact.

Yep. That's my opinion. I felt that you were pushing her to react more harshly than needed.



IME women tend through their socialization to err on the side of being too careful of others feelings and compassionate to the point where they themslves are damaged.

Yes many do. Women, in general, I don't think so.



We need to talk about these things in order to reassure ourselves that being upset instead of flattered by an unwanted touch is normal and sane, and that its OK to do something about it. This is important, and I see your comment quoted above in response to my post as an unhelpful and somewhat arrogant strike against this idea.

You are free to talk and to forward your opinions. And I am free to forward mine. Please don't feel that because my opinion differs from yours, that I don't want you to give yours, or that I don't respect you for having a different oppinion that I do.

Actually, I'm quite thankfull for your opinion, as it gave me a chance to say my opinion about women who push each other into overreacting to mens behaviour. Just as we both feel that women need to speak up for themselves, I feel that there's a lot of overeacting going on too.

If you felt I was being arrogant and/or disrespect, then I'm sorry. that was not my intention. :sad: If you felt provoked ... cool! :twisted:

[cocodrilo]

What happened to wrist-breaking? I want more violence!!! :lol:

[Bob]

What happened to wrist-breaking? I want more violence!!!


Right on! The best way to handle it is to ask yourself, what would Uma Thurmon do?

http://killbill.movies.go.com/vol2/gallery/fullsize_02.html

[cocodrilo]

Why, Bob! Uma would reach for a sword!!!!!!!!

[Bob]

:P

[squirrel]

:) Why, gals, using Uma's strategy might prove very useful at times... :))

[cocodrilo]

Ditto that one, Squirrel! :D
Too bad swords are so bloody expensive(and they don't fit in one's purse!) :?

[Sarah]

There is no way you can now in advance whether or not a guy will repsect a no. In order to be 'sure' that her arse will never be touched again, which was your requirement for handling the situation satisfactory, she will have to resort to a one-size-fits-all solution. You didn't say it, but it's the logical consequence of what you said.

I can now see how you drew that conclusion, but I don't believe that to be the case. There are grades of reaction between `sledgehammer' and `wet noodle', and I at least think that it's most ethical to pick the minimum effective level of reaction. Picking an ineffective level IME escalates the situation, sometimes to the point of damage. No you can't ever be %100 certain, but any adult should be able to make an informed guess.


In my oppinion, she handled it perfectly. She said 'NO!'. Most guys will respect it, some won't. For those that don't respect it, stronger actions need to be taken. But that's impossible to know in advance. (Unless the guy has a reputation/history that says otherwise.)


It is my opinion however, that if Pacion provided a straighforward and unambiguous no, and if her problem guy ignored it, then protecting his feelings is no longer any responsibility of her's.

100% agreed!

I now believe that the heart of our disagreement is that Pacion's statements that I first quoted led me to believe that she was not being unambiguous in her communication with problem-guy, that she was making excuses for him and that she was not treating him like a reasonable, responsible, grown-up human being. And if you think about it, its hardly fair on him to expect him to see and respond to annoyance that is being hidden - effectively lied about - in the name of not overreacting.



Your initial sentence
This is why I don't like it when women come together and start talking about these things. You women always seem to talk each other into being harder, meaner, tougher and less compassionate.... or in a single word: overreact.

Yep. That's my opinion. I felt that you were pushing her to react more harshly than needed.

My intent was to encourage her to respond harshly enough. Actually, not even paticularly harshly, but firmly and unambiguously, and in expectation of success.


IME women tend through their socialization to err on the side of being too careful of others feelings and compassionate to the point where they themslves are damaged.

Yes many do. Women, in general, I don't think so.

Too many. Too too many.
Someone suggested upthread, before I even posted, that I teach Pacion some wristlocks. I'd rather teach her the power of a raised eyebrow in the right place at the right time. :?

May I ask you for a story? Under what circumstances were you on the recieving end of a woman's overreaction. By PM if you prefer.

Thank you for the civil discussion.

Cheers
Sarah

[Genesius Redux]

What a tangled little web this thread has become! Just like Pacion to start a little tempest in a teapot and scarper.... :wink:

[pygmalion]

Hey! What's a little earlobe nibbling between friends? :oops: :lol:

[Genesius Redux]

Hey! What's a little earlobe nibbling between friends? :oops: :lol:

Visit me in Nashville, Jenn, and we'll pursue this discussion further. :wink:

[SDsalsaguy]

Hey! What's a little earlobe nibbling between friends? :oops: :lol:

Visit me in Nashville, Jenn, and we'll pursue this discussion further. :wink:
Ummm, if you're doing it right "discussing" might prove difficult, no? :wink:

[Sagitta]

Depends on what you mean by "discussing". There are many ways of communicating. :twisted:

[danceguy]

one of the typical pranks we played during college was to swipe somebody's clothes & keys while they were in the shower. i'll never forget how one guy calmly wrapped himself up in a shower curtain like a toga, went to the front desk and had someone let him into his room (coed dorm). he wasn't embarrassed at all - and he got his revenge by dissembling the perpetrator's bed and reassembling it - in the women's restroom. i think he was from the detroit area too (I went to U-M in ann arbor).

How did I miss this? Well, I'm about to hijack this thread somewhat off topic, but hey why not? :lol:

Tsb - Ah, good old college memories...back when I was in school we would steal each other's clothes and keys all the time...leaving the poor guy left with only one option, running out with the shower curtain wrapped around them. What a mean prank! :P

One time we did this to a friend of ours, so firstly we ran in and stole his towel, and then dumped a bucket of cold water on him and while he was shrieking we stole his keys. And, since we had a co-ed dorm (girls on the second floor), we invited them all down to watch him coming out of the bathroom, while we video taped the entire spectacle!

My friend comes roaring out of the bathroom with the curtain wrapped around him (he was a bit tiffed to put it midly) and then we grabbed the curtain and pulled it off of him (and made sure our camera guy got all of this)...but then he freaked out and starting running after us...what do you do when a naked man starts charing after you? As I recall he then chased us upstairs and around the ladies' floor for a while (he was in really good shape so I think he may have even gotten a date or two) and eventually we gave him his stuff back. :shock: :D

But the better part is when they got me back since I sort of instigated the whole prank. My friends stole my towel and clothes (but not my keys!) and then I came out with the shower curtain around me. Such was their deviousness, they had broken into my dorm room through the window and placed a wooden wedge under my door from the inside, leaving me unable to get into my room somewhat permanently, and all I had was that flimsy curtain (which they tried to take off but ended up getting punched for their efforts). Eventually I plowed through the door (and almost broke it), but I think we decided a truce after all that was over.... :roll:

Umm, what was the topic of this thread again? :D

SG

[Bob]

When I worked on a race team, the practical jokes got a bit out of hand.

It ended when one mechanic drilled a small hole in a headlamp and filled the headlamp with butane from a torch. (the hole was then taped closed)

when the driver turned the headlamps on, BOOOOOM!

that was when the mgt said "ok, you guys are blowing things up, it is really time to cut this out. "

it was a good thing it was a rental car.

[cocodrilo]

That's so funny, SG!
I've heard of cow-tipping, and college kids buying blocks of ice and go "sledding" on golf courses, but videotaping the shower curtain thing...HILARIOUS! :lol:

[danceguy]

Yes, believe me, there's a very good reason why I'm not in contact with any of those "friends" anymore! :roll: :?

[tsb]

if we're going to off topic about pranks - one of the best i ever saw was when a hallmate had a girlfriend visiting from out of town. we purposely started calling numbers very close to the hallmate's number, and when a female answered, we'd said. "mom, i'm done, can you pick me up now?" of course they'd eventually figure it out and tell us they had the wrong number so we'd say: "sorry to bother you, but i just used my last quarter. would you call this number, ask for _________(girlfriend's name) and tell her that ________ (hallmate's name) is hoping to get picked up tonight..."

even if the good samaritan didn't say it quite that way, it was pretty funny to hear sue say "but hector's right here!"

[Genesius Redux]

Hey! What's a little earlobe nibbling between friends? :oops: :lol:

Visit me in Nashville, Jenn, and we'll pursue this discussion further. :wink:
Ummm, if you're doing it right "discussing" might prove difficult, no? :wink:

There are many things a tongue can do to reach the ear of a listener. Just think of it as a conversational extension.... :wink:

[SDsalsaguy]

Hey! What's a little earlobe nibbling between friends? :oops: :lol:

Visit me in Nashville, Jenn, and we'll pursue this discussion further. :wink:
Ummm, if you're doing it right "discussing" might prove difficult, no? :wink:

There are many things a tongue can do to reach the ear of a listener. Just think of it as a conversational extension.... :wink:
So saying "I was only extending the conversation" really works for you GR? :wink:

[Genesius Redux]

Hey! What's a little earlobe nibbling between friends? :oops: :lol:

Visit me in Nashville, Jenn, and we'll pursue this discussion further. :wink:
Ummm, if you're doing it right "discussing" might prove difficult, no? :wink:

There are many things a tongue can do to reach the ear of a listener. Just think of it as a conversational extension.... :wink:
So saying "I was only extending the conversation" really works for you GR? :wink:

That depends whom I'm extending it with. I generally don't try to have a detailed discussion unless we both seem to be on the same page! :wink:

[Pacion]

What a tangled little web this thread has become! Just like Pacion to start a little tempest in a teapot and scarper.... :wink:

:tongue: only to somewhere that is "dry and with an abundance of cappaccinos in supply" :lol:

As some of you know, I have been away, and just got back. Soooo I haven't been jumping and rubbing my hands with glee, at a safe distance, as GR would suggest :lol:

There is a lot to take in here but there are a few things that need to be said/clarified here (and let me see if I can get to ten without repeating myself once :wink: ).

a) someone mentioned about women overreacting? Perhaps. But, that should be said/remembered in the context of the parties. I am not a violent person - my bark is worse than my bite. Therefore, I wouldn't break someone's wrist just for touching my bum or such like, which is, truth be said, over reacting. However, guys, in general should be aware of taking such "liberties" with someone that you are barely acquainted with/know in the Biblical sense (c) Pygmalion :wink:

b) I am of a very jovial disposition. Therefore, as I think I indicated earlier, I might have some responsibility for the guy in question not getting the message first time. There is other stuff I have not mentioned here but, this guy knows that he can't take certain liberties/presume certain things about me and therefore, really ought to know better than to touch me in such a friendly manner. Due to his behaviour in general, I have had people ask me if we were in somethin' :shock: but, as he is like that with lots of other women, I didn't get upset and just explained that he is like that with lots of other women, as they themselves know/have seen.

c) I can be incredibly firm, when I want to be and have made it very plain to guys either by the stiffness in my arms (when they want to hold me too close :evil: ) or by heading off into the opposite direction, when their attentions were unwelcomed. I think at the time I posted this thread, I was a bit sensitive/emotional about other things in my life and, to quote a well intended phrase, created a "tempest in a teapot"

d) I still believe that this is a genuine "problem" though, where men, generally believe that they are being friendly, not realising that their tactial hands are going places that could result in them being chopped off a la Uma :twisted:

e) umm, okay, I am here at five and I think, have not repeated myself. In summary/short, to recap - embarassing anyone in what might be a "first demeaner" is possibly an overreaction (not knowing someone else's history/experiences being an unknown variable). Being tactile/flirtious with one's hands is the behaviour of a teenage, not a "mature young man" :oops: where the friendship is one of acquaintance - in my opinion. What goes on between good friends is another matter entirely.

Oh, and I just remember one more!

f) as I said in my first post, I was told/taught as a child that a guy touching you on your bum was disrespectful <fullstop> Perhaps if this guy had a similiar upbringing/childhood we would not be having this discussion now?

[Genesius Redux]

Well, okay--so for my serious reply:

For crying out loud, guys, learn to read the signals. If you don't outgrow grab@$$ing by the time you're 16 or so, there may be a social problem here.

[pygmalion]

Good point, GR. Grown-up men know better than to play these childish games. :oops: :lol: Grab@$$ is a lot of fun, among friends or more-than-friends. Among strangers, it's a big no-no!

[Sabor]

i say 'graba$$ing' is not a function of age.. but simply to the level of intimacy between the grabber and grabbee.. if its acceptable.. grab away .. up to the moment you're on your death bed.. get in that last squeeze so u can set your soul free :shock: LMAO! 8)

[Pacion]

:doh: There always HAS to be one! :lol:

[Sagitta]

:doh: There always HAS to be one! :lol: :cheers:

[Pebbles]

a) someone mentioned about women overreacting? Perhaps. But, that should be said/remembered in the context of the parties. I am not a violent person - my bark is worse than my bite. Therefore, I wouldn't break someone's wrist just for touching my bum or such like, which is, truth be said, over reacting. However, guys, in general should be aware of taking such "liberties" with someone that you are barely acquainted with/know in the Biblical sense

A good slap in the face in return seems appropriate. A guy who made unwanted physical advance shouldn’t really complain about an unwanted physical response. I would like to see more ladies speak up for themselves in these situations. Wishing a guy to know better or to take a hint usually doesn’t work, but saying loudly and clearly “don’t ever do that again!” usually does.