What is the purpose of dance exams?

[pygmalion]

Not teacher certifications; I'm all in favor of them and I KNOW what they do. But student certifications make me wonder.

My first experience was at a studio where only school figures were required with no particular technique, and no one ever failed. So I refused to take the exams. I found them pointless. (The studio management was VERY annoyed with me. LOL.)

Then, I studied for and took the ISTD student exams. Those were better, in my view, since you actually had to earn your scores. But still, I found something lacking. So now, I'm working on the student member exams -- essentially teacher exams for amateurs. Just for the heck of it.

But I suspect that at higher levels of competition, for dance pros, and even in most of the world other than the US, dance exams take on a whole different meaning.

What significance or value do they have to you?

[dancin_feet]

For me they give me a yardstick on which to evaluate where I am at with my dancing. Each level within our studio adds at least 4 new steps and more advanced technique. Bronze has 4 levels, Silver 2, Gold 2 and Supreme Gold is the top level. It has nothing to do with anyone else, and I don't measure my marks against anyone else and think "Well I must be better/worse than they are". It is purely a point from which you move onto the next level, with a more specific idea of where you are versus where you are going for the next exam.

[Laura]

My first experience was at a studio where only school figures were required with no particular technique, and no one ever failed. So I refused to take the exams. I found them pointlessMy only experience with amateur dance exams was in a one-year International Standard syllabus class. We spent 4 months on each level, and had an exam at the end of each 4 month term. The exam consisted of dancing routines we were taught in class; the routines incorporated the syllabus steps for each particular level. The class teachers and the head of our studio's teacher training program critiqued the exam, for each dance you got marked excellent, good, fair, poor for footwork, timing, knowledge of patterns, and presentation. The teachers also gave written remarks for each dance. There was no concept of pass or fail because they didn't require anyone to achieve anything in order to move on. This wasn't any kind of certification exam, but more of a "final exam" to give students something to focus on as they learned the different levels in the syllabus.

I found preparing for these exams very helpful. This was the first group class that I ever took (I had been taking private lessons for about six months already). It was useful because it made me hook up with other amateurs to practice, it introduced me to the entire Standard syllabus, it gave me something to practice for, it gave me a chance to demonstrate in front of my classmates, and the marks and written comments were very helpful. I liked this class so much that I took it again the following year, and then I took the Silver level for a third time. This year I'm planning to take the Gold level again.

[Sakura]

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: *holds hands up and speaks quitely* I've never actually heard of the exams until about now... Don't hurt me! =^__^=;;;;

Should I be asking my teacher about these sometime soon? Or should I wait for him to bring them up to me, when he feels that I should take them?

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[dancin_feet]

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: *holds hands up and speaks quitely* I've never actually heard of the exams until about now... Don't hurt me! =^__^=;;;;

Should I be asking my teacher about these sometime soon? Or should I wait for him to bring them up to me, when he feels that I should take them?

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

Ask, yes definitely ask. If it is something you think you may be interested in doing don't wait for them to come to you.

[SDsalsaguy]

Sure, if you're interested ask... but, by the same token, there's also absolutely no need if you're not interested. Good dancing is good dancing... with or without examination!

[Sakura]

Sure, if you're interested ask... but, by the same token, there's also absolutely no need if you're not interested. Good dancing is good dancing... with or without examination!

I suppose it is; but testing always gives me a good idea of where I'm at in what I'm doing... (It's what I get for being an honors student, I guess... :roll: )

From what I've seen, do you have to find a class that studies together for them, and then you take the test? (This is probably going to sound silly: the test is a physical thing, right? Not written?) How much do these classes cost? And are they like a workshop deal, and only meet a few times a year?

If one plans on competing (Divine Beings {<-- A good way not to offend anyone of different faiths! :D } willing that I should, someday!), do they have to pass these tests? I've seen all these things about Pro Am, etc... Do you have to pass these tests to get into these groups? =O_O=... It makes my head hurt, thinking about all of the possiblities! :shock: :D

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[Laura]

there's also absolutely no need if you're not interested. Good dancing is good dancing... with or without examination
That's for sure!

Exams are good for people who like to prepare for and take tests, like me :D

[Chris Stratton]

Do exams provide comments, beyond an overall score?

For many of us, competitions are a tolerable reality check - but one thing about competitions is that they evaluate you as a whole, and in comparison to others. So it's possible to go quite far with some basic errors that are outweighed - and thus concealed - by strong positives. If an exam provides an opportunity to check all the details in a formal manner, then it seems like it might be a good way to verify more than the net-effect of performance in a competition context.

[SDsalsaguy]

Sakura, you can prepare however you wish. Theres are medals classes but these are by no means the only way to go. Price wise such classes tend to be the same as any other group classes (based on how many times they actually meet).

Medals tests are totally seperate from competing in so far as one can compete, Pro Am or otherwise, regardless of any examinations. the only point of overlap is that the different exam levels parallel many of the competitive divisions (i.e. Full Bronze).

HTH

[dancin_feet]

The way our studio works is that you can do private lessons, with or without being on a programme that you can take exams. If you choose to take exams, great but if not you still get the same tuition, just not the regular evaluation and the feeling of getting better by going from level to level. We also get a fair bit of feedback from the examiner on what was working well at that level, what wasn't and what to be working towards for the next one.

All our exams are freestyle dancing, no routines. The emphasis is on good dancing to any music with any partner, not a routine.

[Sakura]

the only point of overlap is that the different exam levels parallel many of the competitive divisions (i.e. Full Bronze).

HTH

So, if one plans to compete, it might be a good idea to take at least one of the tests, to figure out what dance level to enter in to? (I know you said you don't have to take them, but how else then do you know which level to enter?)

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[SDsalsaguy]

the only point of overlap is that the different exam levels parallel many of the competitive divisions (i.e. Full Bronze).

HTH

So, if one plans to compete, it might be a good idea to take at least one of the tests, to figure out what dance level to enter in to? (I know you said you don't have to take them, but how else then do you know which level to enter?)
Don't need to even then SK. If you want to take the exams, go fo it, but be it a routine or straight lead and follow it is your instructor's responability to give you appropriate competition material.

[Sakura]

*nod nod* Gotcha! :D Thanks a bunch, SD! You're so great! 8) (Of course, *you* know this already, so I guess I'm just boosting the ego! :lol: )

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[Laura]

Most people enter the lowest level the first time they compete. Some competitions even have special newcomer events. Sometimes the newcomer events are for people who've only taken a certain number of lessons, but other times they are simply for people who have never competed before.

There's not really a correlation between passing a medal test and being successful in a competition, which is why I suggest that your teacher/coach is the best person to help you figure out what level to enter the first time.

[SDsalsaguy]

:oops: :oops: :oops: just trying to be helpful SK :oops: :oops: :oops:

[Sakura]

Thanks Laura! My mum doesn't want me competing now. (Money's a big issue for that... :evil: ) But, the information is really helpful!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[ShyDancer]

I am doing my exams so I know where Im at. Its a personal thing really, I dont have to compete against anyone else, Im doing it all for myself.
It also gives me something to work toward, which I wouldnt have otherwise as I dont have any intentions of competeing.

Mine is a little different to dancin_feets exam....
We have a set routine with set list of moves that the ADS have decided is Bronze (in my case) level.We are judged on technique, we are given score sheets and the judges comment on where we were good and where we need to improve.
We are working hard now on correct foot placement, straight legs (latin), rise and fall (NV),arms, hips and upper body technique.

And the thing that scares me most is that you cand fail this exam! A lot of studios I have seen do pass anyone, but my studio brings in independant examiners from the ADS.
You are told if they think you need extra help or if you should maybe try the exam at a later date when your skills have improved.

[dancin_feet]

And the thing that scares me most is that you cand fail this exam!

:shock: :shock:

You can fail?? Does your instructor not have a say whether you are ready to go for it or not?

With our exams, yes they are judged internally, but there are only three instructors in the whole of the country who are senior enough to be an examiner. Your own instructor or a more senior instructor will only let you go for your exam if they believe you are dancing well enough to pass at the level you want to pass at. They will not book you in to sit an exam unless you are ready.

[Genesius Redux]

I don't know--exams? They tell you something about your dancing on a given day. If you take a lot of them and you start to notice patterns, they may tell you something useful. But frequent coachings are more useful to me. 8)

[DanceAm]

Unless it is for teaching certifications, I don't think the tests are necessary. I think periodic coachings from someone both you and your instructor respect is the best way to see where you need to work. Even if your teacher is a well known judge, a coaching once in a while from someone else of the opposite sex still brings a newer perspective. And different judges doing a coaching let you know what is important to them. Finding out why a judge marked you lower than the others at a comp is usually the best judge to get a coaching from.

[Sakura]

But frequent coachings are more useful to me. 8)

*That* actually happens to bring up another question of mine: what's the difference between your instructor and a coach? :? Isn't your instructor coaching you?

I've been wondering about this for a while; I'd seen my studio's website advertising that a few coaches would be in for some set period of time, and I just wondered about it.

Thanks!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[pygmalion]

Hmm. I think different people have different views. There was an old thread on that. I wish I remembered what I named it. :oops: :lol:

I'll go find it and post the link here. 8)

[Laura]

In general, dancesport competitors in the US tend to use "teacher" or "instructor" to refer to someone who they take private singles Pro/Am lessons from. I think these words are used because they point out that the dance relationship is not between peers. Some people think it's terribly presumptuous to call one's teacher their "partner," by the way. Personally, I would never do it because it hints at a level of equality that is just not there, and besides many competing pros who also do Pro/Am already have their own real professional dance partner.

People use "coach" to refer to someone who is teaching them dancing in a couple with someone else. So, if you dance in a lesson with your teacher and a third party is there telling you both what to do, then it's a coaching session. If you're taking a lesson with a peer from a third party, then it's also a coaching session. In both situations, the third party is usually referred to as a "coach."

Leaders of group classes are usually referred to as teachers or instructors, unless it's part of a dancesport program where the teacher is actually coaching competitive couples in a group situation.

I love language!

[pygmalion]

Here's that old thread. I think Laura covered it pretty well. Here's what others have said before, just to supplement.

http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1339


And another one.

http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2268

[Adwiz]

For many of us, competitions are a tolerable reality check - but one thing about competitions is that they evaluate you as a whole, and in comparison to others. So it's possible to go quite far with some basic errors that are outweighed - and thus concealed - by strong positives.

Excellent point. At a recent comp, I noticed one adult Championship competitor who had a terrible habit of scrunching up his shoulders, clearly a serious shortfall that would have been glaringly obvious in an exam. The judges certainly would have cringed at this, but his other attributes overshadowed other dancers who had less glaring shortcomings. In the comp his overall performance put him into the finals, but I'm not sure how aware he is of this problem.

[Genesius Redux]

Some people think it's terribly presumptuous to call one's teacher their "partner," by the way. Personally, I would never do it because it hints at a level of equality that is just not there, and besides many competing pros who also do Pro/Am already have their own real professional dance partner.

It's an issue, definitely. But when dancing with your teacher, as opposed to taking a lesson, when competing or dancing socially--you have to look at your teacher as your partner, or you'll never have the connection you need to have in performance.

Certainly you don't have the connection with your teacher that he or she would have with a pro partner--because you just haven't put in the time.

When introducing, however, I think you should always say, "This is my teacher, Frank/Leslie/Horatio/Guinivere."

[pygmalion]

Yup, GR. I've had many an argument with a particular former teacher over that issue. He thought being a teacher put him on a higher level than me, so he viewed himself as my teacher, rather than partner. I thought that, in dance technique lessons, he was my teacher, but when dancing together, he was my partner. And, as it so happens, he and I had about equal experience -- me, fifteen plus years in music, he-- fifteen years plus in dance. If he'd had enough humility to see me as a partner, he could have learned a lot from me, musically. (Um,like the difference in count between salsa and mambo LOL :twisted: :roll: )

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and, from what I hear, at least in some comps these days, pro-am couples are being judged as couples. In the past, from what I hear, the am was judged, not the pro. That's not always true, any more.

[Genesius Redux]

I agree with you 100%, Jenn--and partly it's that I feel I want to bring something to the table, too. I've learned a great deal about the technical details of dancing from my teachers--but they've also gotten something out of performing with me. I've not competed with my present teacher yet, but I'm looking forward to it, because she's from a musical theatre background and we tend to see performance the same way. (And she's also got a gig choreographing Tartuffe for me--which I'm planning to set in the Jazz Age).

So, yeah, actor and musician both for well over 30 years--no time for anyone who treats me like I don't know anything. :roll:

[Laura]

The general rule is that in syllabus-level events the student is judged, but in open-level (completely out-of-syllabus) events the couple is judged. Or at least, that's the way I've always had it explained to me. There might actually be something about that on the NDCA web site.

[pygmalion]

I'm pretty sure it differs from comp to comp. Not all of them are NDCA sanctioned, so it's probably worth checking up front on how the judging is done.

This is totally off topic, but what the heck. In my view, when you're teaching adults, even if it IS dance, you have a totally different way of relating to them than you do to children ... if you want to succeed. For a dance teacher to automatically assume he or she is "above" me because he/she is the teacher is crap, to me. I know as much as or more than any teacher I'll ever encounter. Not about dance, maybe, but I have plenty to teach, as well as much to learn. Dance teachers need to have some humility to go with their knowledge. Just my two cents, based on some admittedly bad experiences.

[SDsalsaguy]

The general rule is that in syllabus-level events the student is judged, but in open-level (completely out-of-syllabus) events the couple is judged. Or at least, that's the way I've always had it explained to me. There might actually be something about that on the NDCA web site.
I've heard this version too Laura... but I've also heard that the student is the one being judged in single dance events while it is couple being judged in multi-dance events. To complicate the matter I've also spoken to judges after an event and the reasons they've sometime given for the markings is not even in accordance with their own beliefs about the student/couple differentiation. Talk about confusing! :?

[pygmalion]

Exactly. Hence, my apparent arrogance. I'm going to do my damndest while I'm dancing, but I'm going to expect my coach to do the same, and to be accountable to me, the same as I'm accountable to him, and we're bth accountable to the judges :tongue: . So there!