Is Salsa easier to learn/dance than Swing?

[Flat Shoes]

I don't do Salsa, but it appears to me to be an easier dance to learn than for example Lindy Hop, which I do. But then there's East Coast Swing, which I think is easier then Lindy Hop. At least that's the impression I get.

The background for this question is that I wonder why Salsa seems to be more popular than Swing. And the Leads that D A N C E thread in Salsa made me wonder whether Salsa is just easier to do and if that has anything to do with it.

But I'm starting in one end, is Salsa easier than Swing?

[cocodrilo]

I don't dance swing, but I dance salsa. From what I have seen, basic swing seems to require more stamina than basic salsa. It seems to me to be a more "athletic" dance. HOWEVER, it's truly dificult for some people to get the knack of moving their hips the right way for salsa- ANYONE can learn salsa, but to make it look like it is SUPPOSED to look- sexy & natural, now there's the challenge!
Flat shoes- can you dance swing on your own? In salsa , we do solo dancing which is called doing "shines"(kick me if you already know this) and BOY IS IT A WORKOUT! There are some salsa dancers who don't have a knack for doing shines, either, just dancing the patterns they have learned. This is a darn shame as it really is the icing on the cake!!!

[Flat Shoes]

I don't dance swing, but I dance salsa. From what I have seen, basic swing seems to require more stamina than basic salsa. It seems to me to be a more "athletic" dance.

From what I read in the aforementioned thread, that is my opinion too. At least when dancing Lindy, I don't stand much still just conducting the girls. It's full participation all of the time.


HOWEVER, it's truly dificult for some people to get the knack of moving their hips the right way for salsa- ANYONE can learn salsa, but to make it look like it is SUPPOSED to look- sexy & natural, now there's the challenge!

I can imagine. If you're not use to move this way, it takes some time for the body to learn it. And if a person doesn't actively try to learn the hip motions and weight transfers the proper way, he/she probably never will.



Flat shoes- can you dance swing on your own?

I can't dance the patterns on my own. (Well, I can, but it's quite meaningless.) But in Lindy there's a lot of jazz (jazz as in old fashion jazz, not in modern jazz) steps that can be done solo. There are several jazz choreographies where people dance solo. We have breaks in the music that are can be used for shining/playing/flirting/jazz-steps/whatever. And there are several steps that can be done with no connection, for example charleston steps.


In salsa , we do solo dancing which is called doing "shines"(kick me if you already know this) and BOY IS IT A WORKOUT!

How long do these shines go on?

[cocodrilo]

The shines can last for as long as the lead feels like doing them, or if he's enjoying watching his partner do some sexy shimmying, it could go on quite a long time! When I host my salsa parties, most of the guests are beginners, and in order to not intimidate the newcomers, I teach them the basic steps and a few simple(but cool-looking) shines and we dance together!

[Flat Shoes]

In Lindy, a shine step is usually just a cool step or variation that goes on for only a few beats. It's just the guy or the girl showing off some nifty variation or step designed to make the crowd or the partner (or oneself) go "cooool!!!" 8)

[salsachinita]

This is a timely thread....!

I have been a salsa (and related, but non-ballroom) only dancer for years, and for the first time in my entire dancing life, I witnessed live Lindy at a club floor :D !

It was a concert at our favourite Latin Jazz venue, where salsa dancers only turn up on Sunday nights. This band was playing a lot of swing-friendly music with Latin Jazz influence, which attracted both crowds, for once.

:D Boy, it sure looked like fun! Very energetic & momentum-based. A lot like how I dance, the old-school salsa (which is rare these days :roll: ), which tends to be firey, energetic rather than cool & smooth.

I was wondering if one of the leads were to ask me for a dance, will I be able to follow him (I can follow rock n roll, if the leader knows how to lead)......?

What do you think :? .....?

[youngsta]

Don't know much about Lindy, but I have experience with ECS and WCS and they weren't difficult to learn at all. I'd say they're about equal in difficulty.

[Flat Shoes]

Don't know much about Lindy, but I have experience with ECS and WCS and they weren't difficult to learn at all. I'd say they're about equal in difficulty.

Damn, I knew there were one obvious option I forgot! :lol:

[Flat Shoes]

I was wondering if one of the leads were to ask me for a dance, will I be able to follow him (I can follow rock n roll, if the leader knows how to lead)......?

What do you think :? .....?

Maybe, maybe not. Keep in mind, I don't know much about Salsa. But my (not very extended) experience with leading Salsa dancers is that they tend to stop. Now theoretically, if I lead you forward in Lindy, you should keep going forward for ever unless lead to do something else. You salseras tend to stop moving way to early. Maybe it comes from your forward and backward basic step thingy :?

So if you can remember this, can keep a decent connection and can shuffle your feet underneath you fast enough to keep your balance, then you should be quite leadable for moderate tempoed music. 8)

If you in addition can keep those salsa hips controlled, and even put in the occasional chasse step ... then I think we're golden! :wink:

[youngsta]

You think maybe it's just the level of salseras you've dance with Flat Shoes? I haven't encountered the more experienced salseras stopping early just on their own, they follow whatever it is we lead.

[Flat Shoes]

You think maybe it's just the level of salseras you've dance with Flat Shoes? I haven't encountered the more experienced salseras stopping early just on their own, they follow whatever it is we lead.
I have no idea :lol:

My guess was that it was related to have followers behave in Salsa. But I haven't danced with many salseras who have never done swing. And the few I've danced with, I have no idea how experienced they were.

But the basic step in Salsa, it isn't suitable for walking forward, is it? Or do, on occasions, you give up your basic step for just plain walking or something similar?

[youngsta]

But the basic step in Salsa, it isn't suitable for walking forward, is it? Or do, on occasions, you give up your basic step for just plain walking or something similar?
Our basic morphs into a lot of different things, walking forward just being one of many. After work i'll have to see if I can find this video clip I have just so you can see what I mean.

[squirrel]

:) Flat Shoes, we can do whatever we want on the Salsa beat... walk forward or backward, keep the beat without moving our feet, skip some beats and break on others, :) salsa is a very FREE and RELAXING dance... :) why don't you try it some time?!

[Flat Shoes]

Seems I've been mislead into thinking Salsa was more limited than it is. I thought you kept this back and forth thing going almost all of the time :oops:

There's many things I would like to do squirrel. I have actually taken a couple of lessons in Salsa. But I never have/had time to practise. You know how it is with dance, you have to practise to be good. You can't just go to classes. Also, at the moment Tango is on the top of my list of dances to spend more time on.

But dancing Salsa or not, I appreciate learning more about it. :D

[Sagitta]

I don't think that salsa is easier then lindy. When I started trying out lindy I just wanted to do it as I thought it was cool, and I had done a little ECS. Before I became any good I fell in love with salsa. I did salsa because of my love of the music. The african influence awoke something in me! :) That made salsa easier for me to learn.

As for being limited, I would agree that the salsa basic back and forth is just that. A starting point. A little off topic...myabe...I was just trying out the on2 style of dancing, where you do a left foot back(quick), right foot back(quick), left foot in place (slow). Did a few moves, such as CBL and it is a very different feel then breaking forward on 1 or on 2 or 3!!

As for why more people do salsa then lindy? Image, perhaps?

[mellody43]

When I did Lindy (as a beginner-intermediate dancer) I found it exhausting -- I could do one-two songs and that was a workout. With salsa, because you are not jumping/bouncing around (well, at least that's not MY style!) I can maintain it for much MUCH longer. Less breaks. More fun. More dancing. Ah!

East Coast is much easier because it is a smoother dance.

Melissa

[tj]

because you are not jumping/bouncing around (well, at least that's not MY style!)

Only when you're shouting, "Sassy Hips! Sassy Hips!" huh?

I've taken beginner lessons in ECS & Lindy, and I gotta agree that while I personally dislike the bouncy nature of Lindy, I do respect the athleticism that's required. And I danced WCS for about 2 years, and it was fun, too.

But for me, it was salsa music that grabbed me and made me into what I am today - a bonafide salsaholic.

As for why I think salsa is more popular? A lot of women I know love the spins and the graceful look that salsa dancing can have. All the improvisational opportunities and all the different influences and styles. The variety and depth. The differences of culture and the possibilities of learning about history and other places. How you can go to a foreign country, and dance with complete strangers, not be able to speak each other's languages but still have natural dance connection.

I'm sure other dances have this too, but for me, none have the appeal that salsa has.

[Sagitta]

When I did Lindy (as a beginner-intermediate dancer) I found it exhausting -- I could do one-two songs and that was a workout. With salsa, because you are not jumping/bouncing around (well, at least that's not MY style!) I can maintain it for much MUCH longer. Less breaks. More fun. More dancing. Ah!

East Coast is much easier because it is a smoother dance.

Melissa

I find this very interesting as I found ECS jumpier/bouncier then lindy!! Must just be different styles. :wink: :)

[mellody43]

As for why I think salsa is more popular? A lot of women I know love the spins and the graceful look that salsa dancing can have.


I agree. I feel much more graceful/sexy doing salsa than I ever did doing swing (esp lindy. *bouncebounce*)

Because it's smooooooooooooth!

[tj]

When I did Lindy (as a beginner-intermediate dancer) I found it exhausting -- I could do one-two songs and that was a workout. With salsa, because you are not jumping/bouncing around (well, at least that's not MY style!) I can maintain it for much MUCH longer. Less breaks. More fun. More dancing. Ah!

East Coast is much easier because it is a smoother dance.

Melissa

I find this very interesting as I found ECS jumpier/bouncier then lindy!! Must just be different styles. :wink: :)

Could be! :wink:

But I also found ECS more bouncy than salsa, too.

Not that there's anything wrong with that! :wink:

[Sagitta]

When I did Lindy (as a beginner-intermediate dancer) I found it exhausting -- I could do one-two songs and that was a workout. With salsa, because you are not jumping/bouncing around (well, at least that's not MY style!) I can maintain it for much MUCH longer. Less breaks. More fun. More dancing. Ah!

East Coast is much easier because it is a smoother dance.

Melissa

I find this very interesting as I found ECS jumpier/bouncier then lindy!! Must just be different styles. :wink: :)

Could be! :wink:

But I also found ECS more bouncy than salsa, too.

Not that there's anything wrong with that! :wink:

Nothing wrong, of course. I do find salsa smoother then ECS too. :)

[tj]

As for why I think salsa is more popular? A lot of women I know love the spins and the graceful look that salsa dancing can have.


I agree. I feel much more graceful/sexy doing salsa than I ever did doing swing (esp lindy. *bouncebounce*)

Because it's smooooooooooooth!

I also like how people dress up in salsa versus how people dress up in swing.

(Personal preference, of course.)

[Sagitta]

As for why I think salsa is more popular? A lot of women I know love the spins and the graceful look that salsa dancing can have.


I agree. I feel much more graceful/sexy doing salsa than I ever did doing swing (esp lindy. *bouncebounce*)

Because it's smooooooooooooth!

I also like how people dress up in salsa versus how people dress up in swing.

(Personal preference, of course.)

Me too, usually, unless the people are completely out of shape, and then sometimes I feel they look better dressed more conservatively, even sexier.

[tj]

Me too, usually, unless the people are completely out of shape, and then sometimes I feel they look better dressed more conservatively, even sexier.

Lol! People with a bad sense of fashion are universal! :wink:

[Flat Shoes]

Thanks for your opinions guys, it's a lot at once.

My experience when starting Lindy was that it took me quite some time to get the hang of it, that is going from doing patterns and steps to start actually feel the dance. It took me about three-four months of lessons. It has to be said, that were I started dancing there was no Lindy scene, so we were only a bunch of beginners with one or two exceptions. (We did have som good Boogie dancers though.)

After the first semester, my dance had evolved constantly, getting smoother, improving the lead, more improvisations and musicality etc. etc. This I expect is common for most dances.

What dance's smoother, I have no idea. But if it were possible, I'd challenge you :P

What I wonder is whether my experience is representative for other who have starter Lindy or not. If you need longer time with Lindy to get the feeling, and Salsa is different/easier, that might be one reason more people are into Salsa.

Lindy is bouncy, and it is energy consuming. But both bounce and lead should still be smooth! Many Lindy dancers today dance very smooth with hardly any bounce at all. Especially for some slow tunes and non-swing songs this can be very nice. Anyway, it's not the bouncing that should wear you out, it's the large patterns and a lot of movement but most of all the energy in the dance.

When it comes to clothing, it seems more salseras wear short skirts and high heels. Lindy is not a high heels dance (except when you know you'll only be dancing slow), more a flat shoes dance. And of course, baggy pants. :lol: So maybe fashion's part of it. However I like the casual style.

[Vin]

I have done both dances and learned both in about the same time frame.
In the beginning salsa was alot more intimidating for me to learn. It only took one or two lessons for me to feel comfortable doing some basic east coast swing. It took me a couple of months to feel comfortable dancing a basic salsa. For alot of people salsa(the music) is alot harder to
get a feel for than swing. In swing most people I know can hear the beat right away. Many people never figure out salsa.
Another aspect is lead and follow, lead and follow has been more difficult for me in salsa than in swing. I have no idea why but the lead issues I have in salsa never come up in swing. Even leading lindy has been easier for me than leading salsa.
The challenging thing for me with swing has been the fact that with swing you really need to know alot of different styles in order to do it well. To be considered a really good swing dancer you can't get away with doing the basic, a couple of turns, and the cross body lead all night long.

I guess if I had to answer the poll question I would say salsa is harder than east coast, and about the same level as lindy, but when you factor learning everything needed to be a good swing/lindy dancer with everything needed to be a good salsa dancer I find swing more complicated.

[mellody43]

For alot of people salsa(the music) is alot harder to
get a feel for than swing. In swing most people I know can hear the beat right away. Many people never figure out salsa.


I agree -- I think salsa is more rhythmically complex, which makes it difficult for people to "figure out". Part of that is exposure -- Americans, for example, are typically more familiar with swing music/rhythm than with Latin rhythms, so feel more comfortable with it. It is also easier to hear the beats in most swing music. Some salsa has so much going on that it is a challenge for beginners, or people with a less strong natural sense of rhythm/movement, to dance to it (or even enjoy it).

Melissa

[Flat Shoes]

Thanks Vin. How about smoothness? Do you find ECS and Lindy to be smooth, or is the bouncybounce getting in the way, as some has reported?

I took a shower since last post, and the shower is always a place to think. I remember from my early days how the tripplestep and the bounce had me a bit confused for quite some time. Also I do see some beginners with a kind of forced bounce that is not natural. Maybe this is an initial problem with Lindy, that scares people away.

Btw: I do need to check out what ECS looks like, since we don't have that stuff were I'm from. Anyone knows any good ECS video clips to watch online?

[tj]

Thanks Vin. How about smoothness? Do you find ECS and Lindy to be smooth, or is the bouncybounce getting in the way, as some has reported?

Hey, FS, I wanna ask you - so what's the point of wanting to know if/why we prefer salsa over Lindy (or Lindy over salsa)?

If it is because of some aspect/style of the dance, then I don't know if addressing it in your own dancing will fix that perception. People tend to look at the most advanced dancers and instructors and say, "Oooo - I want to learn how to do *that*!"

It seems to me to be a lot of unnecessary energy expended wondering why someone doesn't like or do something. For me, I'll spend more time enjoying my hobby and interests with people already into it rather than trying to convince reluctant folk to join me. Just last night one of my (male) friends was trying yet again to get this (female) friend to go dancing.

But hey, it's not a big deal one way or the other. I'm just wondering why you've got this fixation about both not liking salsa and plugging swing to all of us who have already made up our minds as to which we prefer. There are plenty of others who think differently - what do your friends in Lindy like about Lindy more than salsa?


Btw: I do need to check out what ECS looks like, since we don't have that stuff here. Anyone knows any good ECS video clips to watch online?

Also some good WCS & Lindy clips, too! (as stated elsewhere my recommendations on salsa would be this (http://www.salsamafia.com) or this. (http://www.clubmayan.com)

[Flat Shoes]

Hey, FS, I wanna ask you - so what's the point of wanting to know if/why we prefer salsa over Lindy (or Lindy over salsa)?

I want to undertstand what, if anything, can be done to make Lindy more popular. If it is so that Lindy is tougher to get into and thus makes people give up, finding out why and what can be helpfull when teaching beginners. For example, if people find the bouncycoune disrupting, how can this be adressed?


If it is because of some aspect/style of the dance, then I don't know if addressing it in your own dancing will fix that perception. People tend to look at the most advanced dancers and instructors and say, "Oooo - I want to learn how to do *that*!"

This is the aspect of promoting the dance. But promoting isn't enough if people don't stick with the dance. If too many people give up too early, critical mass will never be reached.



It seems to me to be a lot of unnecessary energy expended wondering why someone doesn't like or do something. For me, I'll spend more time enjoying my hobby and interests with people already into it rather than trying to convince reluctant folk to join me. Just last night one of my (male) friends was trying yet again to get this (female) friend to go dancing.

I think the scene in general is too small, this also makes the available places and nights for dancing fewer. So this is not about convincing any friends of mine, but caring for the scene.


But hey, it's not a big deal one way or the other. I'm just wondering why you've got this fixation about both not liking salsa and plugging swing to all of us who have already made up our minds as to which we prefer.
Oh, I'm not trying to convert you guys. I'm just using you for information :D


There are plenty of others who think differently - what do your friends in Lindy like about Lindy more than salsa?

I really wish there were plenty. But it's not. Some places there are a lot of Lindy dancers, but there are plenty of places where you can't dance Lindy at all.

Why I don't do Salsa is easy. I started with Lindy and Argentine Tango, and I love both. I don't have too much extra time to learn more dances, and I have no relations with Salsa music. If I had more time, I would test out Salsa as well as learn Tapping, Boogie Woogie, WCS and more.


Also some good WCS & Lindy clips, too! (as stated elsewhere my recommendations on salsa would be this (http://www.salsamafia.com) or this. (http://www.clubmayan.com)
I checked Salsamafia earlier. Really cool site, read a lot of it! They even had opinions on other dances, and dissed Lindy because of the Zoot Suits :?. Will check out Clubmayan later.

[tj]

Hey, FS, I wanna ask you - so what's the point of wanting to know if/why we prefer salsa over Lindy (or Lindy over salsa)?

I want to undertstand what, if anything, can be done to make Lindy more popular. If it is so that Lindy is tougher to get into and thus makes people give up, finding out why and what can be helpfull when teaching beginners. For example, if people find the bouncycoune disrupting, how can this be adressed?

Not being the most experienced of Lindy dancers... :roll: Isn't it part of the dance? Isn't it part of "the look"?

When I mentioned the bouncy nature, I (personally) meant I didn't like that bouncing, regardless of whether the dancing (lead/follow) was smooth. It's just a personal opinion.



If it is because of some aspect/style of the dance, then I don't know if addressing it in your own dancing will fix that perception. People tend to look at the most advanced dancers and instructors and say, "Oooo - I want to learn how to do *that*!"

This is the aspect of promoting the dance. But promoting isn't enough if people don't stick with the dance. If too many people give up too early, critical mass will never be reached.

So how hard is it to get beginners to reach a level of fulfillment? In salsa, spins get taught relatively early (single spins for beginners then doubles as they get more experienced, etc.), and IMHO, this is one of the aspects that draws dancers to salsa.


I think the scene in general is too small, this also makes the available places and nights for dancing fewer. So this is not about convincing any friends of mine, but caring for the scene.


Yes, that's a concern in salsa scenes, too.

I tend to think of dance scenes needing "momentum". In that, once some minimum amount of dancers show up, with a certain minimum amount of skill (and probably a certain amount of sexyness, attractiveness, etc.), that it will eventually become self-sustaining and word of mouth is good enough. The trick is how to get to that point.

One of the best promoters that I knew back in Denver, would raid the various swing scenes. He got lots of dancers (mostly follows) to "try" out salsa, and added a lot of new faces to the scene. In addition to knowing some good techniques and gimmicks, the major factor is that he's a cordial talkative guy, and managed to generate curiousity and intrigue with salsa. So he would do it mostly person by person. A slow way for sure, but it worked.

Oh, I'm not trying to convert you guys. I'm just using you for information :D
Ok, I follow your logic. How about starting a thread about how to promote (partner) dancing in your area?


I really wish there were plenty. But it's not. Some places there are a lot of Lindy dancers, but there are plenty of places where you can't dance Lindy at all.

Really? I was told by some ex-Lindy dancers that most metropolitan areas had Lindy scenes.


Why I don't do Salsa is easy. I started with Lindy and Argentine Tango, and I love both. I don't have too much extra time to learn more dances, and I have no relations with Salsa music. If I had more time, I would test out Salsa as well as learn Tapping, Boogie Woogie, WCS and more.

No problem. I hear that Tango is all over the place, too.

I checked Salsamafia earlier. Really cool site, read a lot of it! They even had opinions on other dances, and dissed Lindy because of the Zoot Suits :?. Will check out Clubmayan later.
Yes, salsamaf has a bunch of non-PC wiseasses! It's not a good place to look if you're easily offended!

That other link has competition clips. Nothing really for social dancing, but it is the sort of thing that motivates new people to want to learn salsa.

[Flat Shoes]

Thanks for the input so far. Need to stop for tonight. Will be back later. :banana:

[cocodrilo]

I'd never even HEARD of Lindy before I was looking for dance shoes on-line several months ago! Don't think we have any outlets for Lindy hop in my part of western Japan, but I'm sure if you get into the more metropolitan areas you'd be able to find some!

As for the appeal of salsa? Flat shoes, just go to a club and you will see for yourself! The women are babes(for the most part), they're dressed in skimpy clothes, they're wiggling their shoulders and hips at you when you dance with them, and the music's GREAT!!!! Latin music is booming now, thanks to the likes of Marc Anthony, Alejandro Sanz, Juanes et al, which has also attributed to the latin dacne scene! :D

Was it Sagitta who said something along the lines about those "not so fit" should dress conservatively? Unfortunately, where I dance, they don't. And even moreso on some of the videos I've seen from the states & elsewhere. BIG ladies, but they kick butt on the dance floor!As long as they are comfortable wearing it, I guess it's fine(although we have to look at it!) :?

[tsb]

Don't know much about Lindy, but I have experience with ECS and WCS and they weren't difficult to learn at all. I'd say they're about equal in difficulty.

i find the lead, follow & overall interaction to be much more potentially complex & nuanced for wcs than ecs at an advanced level, and i know many people who have found wcs much more difficult to assimilate (than ecs). there are a few topics about that in the swing area.

[pygmalion]

I found ECS easiest of the three to begin. Meaning, I was doing some (very bad LOL) ECS by the end of the first class. The coordination for the salsa basic was a bit more difficult, I have to admit. But, overall, I'd say I find them about equally difficult.

WCS is in a class of its own. Learning the basics is pretty much like any other dance, to me. But learning how to do it well? Yikes. That requires a lot more, in my mind. Individuality, musical interpretation. It's a lot like salsa in that respect. It's just a lot harder to fake, because, with salsa, you can get away with mirroring your partner. No such luck in WCS. You have to do your own thing.

[youngsta]

FS check out some of the videos at imambo tv to see some serious mambo. Check out the Morgan and Margarita video listed under high quality windows media and pay particular attention to the very end.

[tsb]

Thanks Vin. How about smoothness? Do you find ECS and Lindy to be smooth, or is the bouncybounce getting in the way, as some has reported?

I took a shower since last post, and the shower is always a place to think. I remember from my early days how the tripplestep and the bounce had me a bit confused for quite some time. Also I do see some beginners with a kind of forced bounce that is not natural. Maybe this is an initial problem with Lindy, that scares people away.

Btw: I do need to check out what ECS looks like, since we don't have that stuff were I'm from. Anyone knows any good ECS video clips to watch online?

SD listed this in a different topic:

http://www.usopenswingdc.com/2003_division_winners.html

which also has samples of wcs & lindy.

the style of lindy varies. to wit: i live near avery popular lindy venue called lindygroove (lindygroove.com). i would characterize the dancing done there as smooth lindy, closer to wcs than ecs actually. one of their instructors, (debbie gitt) is listed as a 2nd place winner in the strictly lindy category in the URL above. (nice person, always FUN to watch and is seemingly always smiling on & off the floor). now, less than a mile away from lindygroove, another major studio has their own style of lindy that incorporates a bounce that is very distinctive (not to mention made fun of by some folks) while two of their instructors have performed at the white house & have ties to frankie manning...

i have found in general you will prefer a type of dance if you are drawn to the music that is traditionally associated with the dance, which can also influence the learning curve.

[Vin]

Thanks Vin. How about smoothness? Do you find ECS and Lindy to be smooth, or is the bouncybounce getting in the way, as some has reported?


I have not found swing to be really bouncy-bounce like they say, for me only when doing charleston. Lindy does take alot more energy than salsa but east coast is pretty relaxing for me. I would definitely say that thus far I prefer salsa although I could see myself really getting into Lindy-hop.
I prefer salsa for various reasons

1) It seems more apt for improvisation. It seems like everything in the swing world has a name and most of the better dancers around know how to do that same move.
It does not take too long to get to the level in salsa where one can come up with a few signature moves. I do not really see that being as easy to do in swing. It is easier to develop your own style with salsa.

2) Honestly I don't get the high from swing that I get from salsa, I enjoy it sure but the feeling you get from having a dance with a really good and sexy salsera when you didn't really expect that great a dance is something that can never be explained(maybe Boriken can, but I can't).
I have had good and even great dances in swing and lindy but after a great salsa you really get a bit of an afterglow.

3) East coast is too simple and Lindy is just too forced. My biggest complaint about swing is that the stuff that is really good very rarely seems natural. I guess you could call it wow factor. Great salsa dancers seem to make everything they do look so effortless, wowing the crowd.
I don't see that in swing, I have only really been wowed once by a lindy, granted it was one of the most incredible things I have ever seen but very rarely do I see a swing dancer and say, that is what I want to learn how to do, even with the coolest moves, they all seem so forced.
Take Charleston as an example, almost everything I have learned do to from the charleston basic requires some amount of extra kicking with a foot, this leads to some of that bouncy-bounce feel that others commented on before .

[Flat Shoes]

For example, if people find the bouncycoune disrupting, how can this be adressed?

Not being the most experienced of Lindy dancers... :roll: Isn't it part of the dance? Isn't it part of "the look"?

Bouncing is part of Lindy, but it should be relaxed and smooth and coming from the music. Everybody bounce when walking, so it's a very natural way of moving. It is possible to dance Lindy moves to the music instead of the rythm, and it is possible to dance without the bouncing. West Coast Swing, which has evolved from Lindy, is swing without bounce.


So how hard is it to get beginners to reach a level of fulfillment? In salsa, spins get taught relatively early (single spins for beginners then doubles as they get more experienced, etc.), and IMHO, this is one of the aspects that draws dancers to salsa.

OK, more spins for beginners! :lol:


I tend to think of dance scenes needing "momentum". .... The trick is how to get to that point.

Yeah, the same thing I call critical mass! :D


One of the best promoters that I knew back in Denver, would raid the various swing scenes. He got lots of dancers (mostly follows) to "try" out salsa, and added a lot of new faces to the scene. In addition to knowing some good techniques and gimmicks, the major factor is that he's a cordial talkative guy, and managed to generate curiousity and intrigue with salsa. So he would do it mostly person by person. A slow way for sure, but it worked.

Hey, that's not nice :evil:


Ok, I follow your logic. How about starting a thread about how to promote (partner) dancing in your area?

I probly will follow up on the subject of getting people to dance in general. But I wanted to examine the 'is Lindy too difficult compared to Salsa'-idea first.



Really? I was told by some ex-Lindy dancers that most metropolitan areas had Lindy scenes.

I think most countries has Lindy in their bigger cities. And I think it's still growing slowly. But Salsa seems to be much larger.


Yes, salsamaf has a bunch of non-PC wiseasses! It's not a good place to look if you're easily offended!

:lol: Thankfully I'm not easily offended. I thought it was hillarious!


That other link has competition clips. Nothing really for social dancing, but it is the sort of thing that motivates new people to want to learn salsa.

Yeah, lots of show and lots of props. Professionally edited soundtracks with 'acting'. Even a phonebooth on the dancefloor! :shock: I've never seen that in Lindy.

But I got to add this; the web-design was not promoting me to watch too many videos. It's really horrible when it's all shockwave like that. Lot's of waiting for screens to draw themselves in fancy ways. And the same way too long ad for the video system everytime a new video was started. Looks good, works bad :(

[Flat Shoes]

As for the appeal of salsa? Flat shoes, just go to a club and you will see for yourself! The women are babes(for the most part), they're dressed in skimpy clothes, they're wiggling their shoulders and hips at you when you dance with them, and the music's GREAT!!!! Latin music is booming now, thanks to the likes of Marc Anthony, Alejandro Sanz, Juanes et al, which has also attributed to the latin dacne scene! :D

Personally I've liked Salsa music too much. I think good old fashioned jazz is much cooler. But that's personal preferences. Of course scantilly clad babes are always a big plus! But not always when dancing. I prefer touching damp clothing to sweaty skin.



i find the lead, follow & overall interaction to be much more potentially complex & nuanced for wcs than ecs at an advanced level, and i know many people who have found wcs much more difficult to assimilate (than ecs). there are a few topics about that in the swing area.
It seems the crowd is split on this one. One group thinks WCS and Lindy is equally difficult to ECS. The other crowd seems to think ECS is easier. I think it's a bit simmilar for Salsa vs. Lindy too. Some think it's the same, some think it's difficult in different ways and some think Salsa is easier. Few think Lindy in general is easier then Salsa or ECS.


FS check out some of the videos at imambo tv to see some serious mambo. Check out the Morgan and Margarita video listed under high quality windows media and pay particular attention to the very end.
Yeah, they were good. Very good at playing, improvising and having fun with different steps. That's what dancing's about! Seems to be a lot of dancing 'alone' or shining too. Like Guillermo and Griselle does a bit too much in my opinion. Can be fun for a while, but I would miss the connection and get frustrated. Dance alone I can do when home alone :twisted:


SD listed this in a different topic:
http://www.usopenswingdc.com/2003_division_winners.html
which also has samples of wcs & lindy.

But there's no ECS here? When it comes to Lindy, I don't think this is anywhere near the best Kevin & Carla can do when it comes to Lindy. I have often seen very good dancers, who are an absolute joy to watch socially, just loose all their playfullness and fun when it's time for competitions. :(

I prefer salsa for various reasons

1) It seems more apt for improvisation. It seems like everything in the swing world has a name and most of the better dancers around know how to do that same move.

It does not take too long to get to the level in salsa where one can come up with a few signature moves. I do not really see that being as easy to do in swing. It is easier to develop your own style with salsa.

2) Honestly I don't get the high from swing that I get from salsa,

I enjoy it sure but the feeling you get from having a dance with a really good and sexy salsera when you didn't really expect that great a dance is something that can never be explained(maybe Boriken can, but I can't).
I have had good and even great dances in swing and lindy but after a great salsa you really get a bit of an afterglow.

3) East coast is too simple and Lindy is just too forced. My biggest complaint about swing is that the stuff that is really good very rarely seems natural. I guess you could call it wow factor.

1. I'm not sure I get your point. Swing can be very 'do one step in eight (or six) counts, then do another step in eight (or six) counts' in the beginning. And it takes some effort to free oneself from that. Is this what you mean? In general Lindy is very open to improvisation, you can play with music, rythm, combine patterns as you go etc. But being able to do the latter takes some experience, and it's not something commonly thought in classes. Also I think Lindy has the biggest variation of steps in the dance world. 8)

2. Oh man! When it's a bit out in the night and I am high on dancing, and there's a fast song coming on and I'm out there with a good partner and everything flows... we dance, we play, we laugh, we cry ... there's just nothing like it! (OK, we don't cry) :lol:

3. I've seen people do aerials that don't flow into the dance, but are rather a stop, the airstep, and then dance again. That seems forced. But apart from this, I don't understand. :?

What do you think about [url=http://www.leeds.ac.uk/union/socs/zoot/VIDEOS/thomas_max.avi] these guys?[url]


OK, that took me a full hour! Appreciate all your opinions!

[tj]

Bouncing is part of Lindy, but it should be relaxed and smooth and coming from the music. Everybody bounce when walking, so it's a very natural way of moving. It is possible to dance Lindy moves to the music instead of the rythm, and it is possible to dance without the bouncing. West Coast Swing, which has evolved from Lindy, is swing without bounce.

So my point is, that if it's part of what makes the dance "unique" then why try to adapt it to what draws dancers to another dance? Perhaps, Lindy dancers get drawn to the "look" of Lindy, just as salsa dancers are drawn to the look of salsa.

So even if you personally don't dance Lindy the traditional way, the majority will. You can, of course, have your own personal style, but the dance is the dance is the dance.


OK, more spins for beginners! :lol:

Lol - you're kidding, right?



One of the best promoters that I knew back in Denver, would raid the various swing scenes. He got lots of dancers (mostly follows) to "try" out salsa, and added a lot of new faces to the scene. In addition to knowing some good techniques and gimmicks, the major factor is that he's a cordial talkative guy, and managed to generate curiousity and intrigue with salsa. So he would do it mostly person by person. A slow way for sure, but it worked.

Hey, that's not nice :evil:

Not that I'd suggest you do the same with the local salseras.... :roll: :twisted:


I think most countries has Lindy in their bigger cities. And I think it's still growing slowly. But Salsa seems to be much larger.

As I said before, I think for a lot of us it's a combination of music and image that draw us to salsa over Lindy. Plus, salsa now has that "critical mass" thing going for it.


Yeah, lots of show and lots of props. Professionally edited soundtracks with 'acting'. Even a phonebooth on the dancefloor! :shock: I've never seen that in Lindy.

It's odd how in salsa competitions and performances, they seem to always have to put in some other form of dance before switching to salsa. Thankfully, the flash/trash aspect isn't always what sways the judges.


But I got to add this; the web-design was not promoting me to watch too many videos. It's really horrible when it's all shockwave like that. Lot's of waiting for screens to draw themselves in fancy ways. And the same way too long ad for the video system everytime a new video was started. Looks good, works bad :(

Yeah, I agree. Plus it sucks that we can't save the clips!

[Vince A]

I think that WCS is the hardest to learn, although now that I'm trying to learn Salsa and Lindy, I'm finding those have their difficulties. For example:

I've been doing WCS for nearly ten years . . . and I struggled like hell for years with it . . . I worked very hard at being precise and smooth, and at being an excellent leader.

ECS is also pretty easy to learn, although doing it in the manner needed to be technically-correct-for-competition, just isn't 100% there for me! I fake a real good ECS.

I'm just starting to learn Lindy . . . maybe having a half-dozen lessons . . . and now I need to learn to "bounce." In other words, undo much of what I've learned in WCS. But I guess, you can Lindy and be smooth, as I've seen (d nice for example) several smooth Lindy dancers.

Salsa, I'm also just a rookie, but Salsa dancing is like writing and ending every sentence with an exclamation point. Very staccato!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So far, for me, WCS is the hardest, but Lindy is the most challenging.

[Vin]

1. I'm not sure I get your point. Swing can be very 'do one step in eight (or six) counts, then do another step in eight (or six) counts' in the beginning. And it takes some effort to free oneself from that. Is this what you mean? In general Lindy is very open to improvisation, you can play with music, rythm, combine patterns as you go etc. But being able to do the latter takes some experience, and it's not something commonly thought in classes. Also I think Lindy has the biggest variation of steps in the dance world. 8)

2. Oh man! When it's a bit out in the night and I am high on dancing, and there's a fast song coming on and I'm out there with a good partner and everything flows... we dance, we play, we laugh, we cry ... there's just nothing like it! (OK, we don't cry) :lol:

3. I've seen people do aerials that don't flow into the dance, but are rather a stop, the airstep, and then dance again. That seems forced. But apart from this, I don't understand. :?

What do you think about [url=http://www.leeds.ac.uk/union/socs/zoot/VIDEOS/thomas_max.avi] these guys?[url]


OK, that took me a full hour! Appreciate all your opinions!

Sorry for the delay, OK Hear goes my response.
In my view Lindy is a different dance, I would like to learn alot more lindy and I do agree that it is a much more involved dance than the others.
In my area there are alot more swing and lindy dancers than salsa dancers but in neither case are there professional grade dancers.
The people learning salsa that I have seen tend to take alot more time perfecting what they already know rather than moving on to new things.
(although I do see the latter type more frequently lately).
A majority of the swing and Lindy-dancers I know are very much into learning the latest aerial rather than perfecting there style with those things they already know. What results is complicated movements that look mechanical and often painful.
I have seen a few very impressive Lindy and swing dances in the past, but the majority of what I have seen has that forced look to it. I am sure that pro's make it look smooth as silk though.
In my opinion a really great dancer can look as though there still impressive movements are effortless.
Dancer ability aside alot of the movements in charleston still feel forced to me. Among other issues the double and triple kicks required to get footing to match up. As well some of the turns in and out of an underarm hold aren't smooth at all.
Lindy is great for a slow to medium tempo song but with a turbo lindy it is like you are platying catch up for the whole song. This adds to the forced feel of the dance.

I guess I am not really at the point with lindy wher I can improvise much. Actually that point you mention about doing one move in six counts and the next in eight and then the next in six again. I dislike that aspect of Lindy. It feels like ok, we couldn't get our move to work so lets do this two count thing and put it in. It tends to disconnect me from the music. I guess I have to work through that.

The connection for me in Lindy/Swing is different than the connection with salsa. With swing it has more of a friends feel, we are playing together. The west coast swing has a sexier look to it, but I don't know if it has a sexual tension to it since I haven't tried it. With salsa I normally feel some unspoken sexual tension/attraction when dancing with a great partner. Maybe it is just me though.

[salsachinita]

Wow, guys! DID I enjoy reading this thread :shock: :P !

Getting back to the 'promoting/caring for scene' (my favourite) issue:


I think the scene in general is too small, this also makes the available places and nights for dancing fewer. So this is not about convincing any friends of mine, but caring for the scene.


Yes, that's a concern in salsa scenes, too.

I tend to think of dance scenes needing "momentum". In that, once some minimum amount of dancers show up, with a certain minimum amount of skill (and probably a certain amount of sexyness, attractiveness, etc.), that it will eventually become self-sustaining and word of mouth is good enough. The trick is how to get to that point.

I personally think that for any dance scene to be alive & well, there is a need for a living culture behind it.

For example, salsa is in all the major (& some smaller) cities in the world, because there is generally (not always) a local Latino population.....or at least enough aficionadors to support the love of salsa music/dance. It is heavily cultrually-based. Popularity/hype of certain music/dance/artists help bringing in new batches of fresh faces, but it is the solid cultrual ties that make salsa scene sustainable.

I will list an example of how this theory works. In the last couple of years an UK instructor tried to establish a Zouk scene here in Melbourne. The music is from the French Carribean/Brazil, sung in either French or Portrugese. The dance is simpler to learn than salsa (and can be done to a lot of R&B/club tunes), mood is generally lighter/happier, so one would think that it will take off, right? But it didn't, as I had predicted at the first stage.

Why....? Because there's a complete absence of a cultrual group to support it. Whereas salsa is supported by most Hispanic community as well as non-Hispanic dancers who 'adopted' themselves into the scene.

Music suitable for swing ( :oops: I am no expert on this, so plz correct me if I'm wrong) is generally retro, right......? So that makes it another sub-cultural group from the mainstream music (eventhough it's sung in English). The trick is to attarct/build on people who already have the taste for that given culture. A scene always takes time to build. Having a solid following built over time is way better then recuiting new blood via hype/popularity for the moment (eventhough that helps).

Much like fashion. Trends come & go. But true styles are timeless 8) .

[pygmalion]

Well said, salsachinita. Timeless.

You know what's funny? When I first saw the title of this thread, I thought that it would be a very short thread. Most people I know are salsa-holics or swing- aholics, but wouldn't consider doing both. So I figured nobody'd have much to say on the topic. Boy, was I wrong. Just goes to show how dumb prejudices can be. :oops: *shrug*

[Sagitta]

Like you SC, I'm into promoting/caring for the dance scene. However, instead of simply doing it for salsa I'm part of a group that does it for all dances. And over time the people who are coming to our events is increasing. Our last latin night, yesterday was packed. The biggest crowd we have ever had. I've noticed that the other dances generally have fewer people, though sometimes it is because there are other dances being held at the same time. Working on it though. First we had once a month dances, switching between social dance (everything goes) and latin, then twice a month dances one latin and the other social. We've tried a R&B night, with lots of hustleable song, but very few people showed for that. We haven't done swing only events as there are plenty of those in this area. It is self sustaining already, with events Tuesday and Wednesday, a big dance with a live band once a month, weekend workshops by "known" people of different styles a couple times a year, etc.

[tj]

(snip)


Good points, SC.

[tj]

Well said, salsachinita. Timeless.

You know what's funny? When I first saw the title of this thread, I thought that it would be a very short thread. Most people I know are salsa-holics or swing- aholics, but wouldn't consider doing both. So I figured nobody'd have much to say on the topic. Boy, was I wrong. Just goes to show how dumb prejudices can be. :oops: *shrug*

Well, I think both salsaholics and swingaholics will dig their heels in if/when the other side tries to "convince" them that other form of dance is superior - which is why I've tried steering the thread away from that direction.

Both dances have their appeal. Both have popularity in many cities. Why not concentrate on how to make both scenes grow instead of getting into an opinionated debate on the strengths and weaknesses of either dance.

[salsachinita]

Good points, SC.

:oops: Thanks, TJ!

[borikensalsero]

I should really read the entire thread before i go on and butt in...

Simplicity/difficulty aside, the popularity of salsa and how all that is needed to get attached to it, is to listen to the music rather than watching the dance... Per se, it isn't really the dance what attracts you to do it, but the underlying unconscious attraction that the music conjures. The dance is the excuse the mind/body need in a world where the metaphysical doesn’t exists, and if it does it is evil to join in, in what is naturally all human beings.

In short, dance has always been used in religious rituals to conjure that which is invisible to the eye, but felt by the inner most emotions of the body. The method used to get conjure the sprits within the dance was percussion, which fast forwarding to today, is still alive in salsa music. Even if you don't believe in spirits, or ghost stories, you have no option but to be attracted to the music’s roots, and its ultimate goal. The music will awaken something in you, once it does, the dance unknowingly attracts you to an addiction, the mind misleads you to think that you are dancing salsa for a given reason when in fact it is for a completely different reason. Your soul has heard a calling, which has been evoked by the function of the drums found in salsa, as well as the soul that the music itself has. We all feel it, but can't explain it, however, use the mind with limited knowledge about the metaphysical, dance, and the music to explain something that can't be explain by sight. Our mind creates reasons that can be explained the only way we know how, through reason and logic.

We say sensuality, we say whatever it is, yet never realize that there has been a call made to us by the music and we have responded by the addiction that is limited by nothing.

The other day I was at the gym and this old men said, “man, I love it when you come here and put your music on. I don't know how to dance, but that stuff gets inside of me and makes me want to shake, even if I can shake to save my life. I don't know what it is, but I want to dance it.” I smiled, and understood that his mind even when not ready to understand, his soul spoke to him, and he had no option but to follow. Didn’t make any sense to him for his attraction, but I totally understood his fascination and why he didn’t need the dance to feel that deep attraction.

There really aren’t many a music in the western Christian based hemisphere that include such a heavy base of percussion, and the means to understand it. Which will never lead to the addiction for the music, and everything about it not just the physical enjoyment of dancing.

In all, some people say they love to dance, because they do, it isn't about the music reaching deeper, but simple the joy of the mind, which is where dances that don’t conjure the metaphysical stop, where as salsa is always associated with a feeling that can't be explained, and many call getting the salsa fix.

The difference between a music that attracts, and one that doesn’t usually falls in its roots/history, which lead the its purpose being one with religious implications, or not. One that has never been used in all its history to tackle the soul, will never conjure the soul, its realms be limited by the pleasing of the body and mind. A music that has been purposely built upon roots to conjure “God” can only lead unsuspected followers to love without the knowledge of why. For reason, nor understanding need be there, if love fills your world, and love is what the music takes us to when we get lost in rhythms and not what our bodies are doing.

And why being a true Salsero is far more implicating than being a great dancer, the dance is just a different way to achieve that connection to your soul… Hmmmm.

To think of salsa we must think of its origins, its roots, its purpose, we must step outside what looks appealing/fun to the eye. We must close our eyes and feel the music, and behind that music is your soul waiting to meet salsa’s soul in a world of oneness, with “God” if you believe in him, or your soul you are Buddhist, or simple a fix if you are Christian…

[SDsalsaguy]

Woah... great stuff Boriken, as always.

[borikensalsero]

Woah... great stuff Boriken, as always.


:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

Thank you SD, I'm always hesitant to speak of this side of salsa, it sure is great to know it is appreaciated. :D :D :D

Thank you very much... I wish I didn't make so many "garmmaritical" errors thought. hehe

[tj]

Thank you very much... I wish I didn't make so many "garmmaritical" errors thought. hehe

Doesn't bug me. I liked the post, too.

[pygmalion]

We say sensuality, we say whatever it is, yet never realize that there has been a call made to us by the music and we have responded by the addiction that is limited by nothing.



Amen. 8)

Oh yeah, and grammatical errors are par for the course. I make them all the time, and just pray I catch and correct them before somebody quotes my posts. :oops: :lol:

[tj]

We say sensuality, we say whatever it is, yet never realize that there has been a call made to us by the music and we have responded by the addiction that is limited by nothing.



Amen. 8)

Oh yeah, and grammatical errors are par for the course. I make them all the time, and just pray I catch and correct them before somebody quotes my posts. :oops: :lol:

Well, hey, at least you didn't call someone by the wrong name! Lol! :oops:

[pygmalion]

Not this time! :oops: :lol: I've done it before; I have to admit. :shock: :oops:

[peachexploration]

... For reason, nor understanding need be there, if love fills your world, and love is what the music takes us to when we get lost in rhythms and not what our bodies are doing.....

:) :) Very nice.