Differences between Swing and Lindy?

[JohnK]

I've asked this question locally, but I'm not confident of the answers I'm getting: What (if any) are the technical differences between Swing and Lindy? I'm told they're the same, but the threads here on DF lead me to believe they aren't. I've had enough lessons to know the difference between ECS and WCS, but is Lindy a generic term, or a specific dance? While we're at it, what about Jitterbug, Jive, and Peabody?

[Flat Shoes]

Lindy is the original type of swing, from which all other types of swing has derived.

Today Lindy is one type of swing, alongside with WCS, ECS, Jive, Boogie Woogie and others.

Since all the other types of swing are refinements of Lindy Hop, with focus on different aspects of the dance, Lindy is the type of swing which has the most variations in steps and style.

I don't have to time to start comparing dance by dance right now, I leave that to someone else. Besides, since I live in Europe, where ECS and WCS is next to nonexistant, I'm not the right guy anyway. You should check the two threads: Swing Overseas, and Define Jitterbug.

[rembrandt44]

Lindy hop is the original Style of swing, as danced in the Savoy ballroom in Harlem-NY, which began in the late 1920's. All other swing styles came out of it. ECS, jitterbug, jive are basically Lindy hop with the eight count rhythms stripped out. WCS, smooth lindy, Hollywood style lindy are all derivatives of the original lindy hop. Nowadays the term Lindy Hop is often used as a generic for all the styles of swing that use an 8 count basic, except for perhaps WCS. So to be specific the orginal style of the Lindy Hop is now often reffered to as Savoy style Lindy.

[LindyKeya]

WCS is also a 6 count dance.

[jon]

Nowadays the term Lindy Hop is often used as a generic for all the styles of swing that use an 8 count basic, except for perhaps WCS. So to be specific the orginal style of the Lindy Hop is now often reffered to as Savoy style Lindy.

Not to digress into one of those endless terminology debates, but I'd take issue with there being a single "original style of Lindy Hop". Folks I know who've worked with some of the original Savoy dancers are consistent in stating that there were a variety of "Savoy styles" (http://people.cornell.edu/pages/kpl5/Jbug_styles.html).

My impression has been that the Rhythm Hotshots, when they did their archaeology, constructed a particular style based on what they saw in those old films and got from Frankie Manning, and that, more or less, is what gets labelled "Savoy style" today.

[pygmalion]

Not to digress into one of those endless terminology debates, but I'd take issue with there being a single "original style of Lindy Hop". Folks I know who've worked with some of the original Savoy dancers are consistent in stating that there were a variety of "Savoy styles" (http://people.cornell.edu/pages/kpl5/Jbug_styles.html).

My impression has been that the Rhythm Hotshots, when they did their archaeology, constructed a particular style based on what they saw in those old films and got from Frankie Manning, and that, more or less, is what gets labelled "Savoy style" today.

Thank you, jon. From the bottom of my heart, I thank you. :wink: :lol: Yes. From what I've heard, the history of lindy hop is a bit convoluted.

[d nice]

Um... Kurt Lichtmann is really not someone you should quote to prove your point. Not quite as bad as refering to Sonny Watson but close.

Sure there were as many "styles" at the Savoy as there dancers on any given night, but there were some definite qualities/elements that they had in common. The Savoy was the home of Lindy Hop. It was danced at all the Ballrooms in Harlem, but just about everyone acknowledged that the Savoy was the place to be.

You could tell where someone danced by their style. Even today you can get a pretty good idea of what city someone is from or what club is there main place by how they dance. The same was not only true of the Savoy, but since it was one of the earliest pioneers, a case could be made to say its style was the first. I'm not sure I'd say the original since that implies that teh other styles derived from it rather spontaneously developing though.

[swinginstyle]

For me, swing is swing. Lindy is looked upon as the granddaddy, from which other vintage swing dances derived from. Then again, we have people call it swing only if you dance to music that swings, thus eliminating the stereotypical definition of west coast swing, that it's danced to non-swing music. However, like I said above, for me, swing is swing.

[Flat Shoes]

For me, swing is swing. Lindy is looked upon as the granddaddy, from which other vintage swing dances derived from. Then again, we have people call it swing only if you dance to music that swings, thus eliminating the stereotypical definition of west coast swing, that it's danced to non-swing music. However, like I said above, for me, swing is swing.
Whether WCS actually swings or not (it don't :twisted:) is not so important. It's still part of the swing family. :banana:

[swinginstyle]

For me, swing is swing. Lindy is looked upon as the granddaddy, from which other vintage swing dances derived from. Then again, we have people call it swing only if you dance to music that swings, thus eliminating the stereotypical definition of west coast swing, that it's danced to non-swing music. However, like I said above, for me, swing is swing.
Whether WCS actually swings or not (it don't :twisted:) is not so important. It's still part of the swing family. :banana:

How appropriate that the devil eyes are there. Now, are you talking about making the dance swing or the music swing? From taking several classes from Skippy Blair, it seems that you can make a dance swing using rolling counts instead of dancing straight counts. On the other hand, much of west coast swing, as it is danced currently, is danced to non-swing music. However, there are exceptions, as some westies do enjoy dancing west coast swing to slower 'swing' tempos. Or would you have believe that west coast can't be danced to traditional swing music?

[Flat Shoes]

Was talking about the dance, yes. In my opinion, swing music is swinging. It's in the rythm and the feel of the music. It's literally a periodic swing in the music. If you dance to swing music, but don't move your body to the swing in the music, then you're not swinging. Nothing wrong with that though, it's just a different way of dancing.

To me, the swing in the music translates to the bounce in the dance. Not necessarily a lot of bounce, but a relaxed bounce that answers to the swinging rhythm. Since WCS doesn't have bounce, I consider it a non-swinging swing dance. But I don't do WCS (took a couple of lessons, watched a few videos, read about it here and there, that's it), and if Skippy, who I presume are a skilled westie, tells you otherwise, forget about me, and listen to him. (How many commas can you cram into one sentence?) Or make up your own opinion! :D

[swinginstyle]

More info on Skippy Blair, a she, can be found at http://www.swingworld.com Anyway, back to the bounce. Is it necessary to translate the feel of the music into a bounce?

[Purr]

What exactly is the peabody? I've seen a few dancers, mainly older, perform it in competition. The dance itself didn't look anymore difficult than the rest of the smooth dances. The music also interests me, one peabody song I recognized is the cantina theme from the original Star Wars movie.

[Flat Shoes]

... back to the bounce. Is it necessary to translate the feel of the music into a bounce?

In order to dance well, no! In order to swing, I think so.

[d nice]

Look I'll say it. Skippy's knowldge of what makes a swing dance is just wrong. PERIOD. She knows a lot about WCS but she doesn't know a lot about Lindy Hop, nor does she know a lot about numerous other swing dances. The bounce is not a defining element in swing dancing... having that heart beat of body movement that matches the music is. Westies call it a pulse and all the great ones have it.

Is West Coast Swing a swing dance? I'd say... but what you see people calling WCS these days is not necessarily that actual dance. IF you aren't swinging the rhythm in your body as well as your feet it is anot a swing dance.

This "rolling count" is the way it is most often talked about completely without merit in whetyher someones dance swings. Swing has a very specific rhythmic definition that simply counting by using a "rolling count" does not meet. You have to under stand that swinging music has an ebb and a flow, it pushes and pulls the beat, moving around a metronome rather than hitting right with one. Your footwork and body movement needs to do the same... WITH the music.

In a word Swing is a genre, of which Lindy Hop is the oldest continuousely danced form of. West Coast Swing and East Coast Swing are two of the larger forms of Swing in the US and they are both direct descendants of Lindy Hop.

The peabody is a non-swing dance, danced to swinging music (usually big-band swing) it is the precursor I believe to the quickstep. It is (stereotypically) a fast paced dance that stays in a variant ballroom closed position and uses a single time step where the partners move facing each other through the lind of dance, executing grapevines and a twisting step using compression and tension where the bodies are in an exagerated offsetposition and then they twist into a reverse ofset position.

[tangotime]

Is Balboa a sort of swing?

No-- its a dance with very strange variety , and posture-- have done formation teamsmany yrs back . Does it have " swing " origins-- possibly, but from my recollection, its was invented in Balboa ( calif ) used to be on the A/Murray dance list .

it reminds me -- oddly enough- of a mambo fwd and back basic , using dble time rhythm .

[Angel HI]

I'm happy to see this thread return because there's a lot of...innocent no doubt...misinformation in it from early '04 posts.

Regarding Balboa, many say it is a form of Swing, but it isn't. It started as an alternative dance to Swing in overcrowded ballrooms where normal Swing moves were often too difficult. It is most often, though not always, danced to Swing music, and in Swing genres, hence the confusion.

I believe that it was originally more related to a stationary, and hellishly quick, Foxtrot. In later years, it integrated some Swing moves, kind of defeating its original purpose, but adding to the dance nonetheless. Today, it is found primarily in Lindy Hop circles. It's a great dance, actually...fun to dance, and even more fun to watch when done very well. FTR (for the record), I suck at it. :(

[Peaches]

No-- its a dance with very strange variety , and posture-- have done formation teamsmany yrs back . Does it have " swing " origins-- possibly, but from my recollection, its was invented in Balboa ( calif ) used to be on the A/Murray dance list .

it reminds me -- oddly enough- of a mambo fwd and back basic , using dble time rhythm .Double timed mambo?!?! Yeah..."hellishly quick" would about describe that, IMO.

[tangotime]

Double timed mambo?!?! Yeah..."hellishly quick" would about describe that, IMO.


Double time does NOT mean twice as fast-- in dance terms-- employing the 2 nd beat ( or any other ) in the bar, with a tap action and using the full time allocation ( same thing that many PRs do in Salsa, tapping on 2 ) thus preventing too rapid a weight change, also used as styling ( cubans often use a "kicking " action in place of the "tap" )

In this instance, the basic was counted-- Rock, and "tap" step-- changing weight on all counts, EXCEPT the tap----repeated as double back breaks to commence---- essentially a QQS rhythm-- the music I used by the way for the formation I did ( for staff ) was Green Onions .

[ognat]

I'm happy to see this thread return because there's a lot of...innocent no doubt...misinformation in it from early '04 posts.

Regarding Balboa, many say it is a form of Swing, but it isn't. It started as an alternative dance to Swing in overcrowded ballrooms where normal Swing moves were often too difficult. .... :(

Wait! Balboa is the FIRST dance ever to be called swing. Lindy was called Lindy, not swing. Bal is a street dance that originated in Orange county (or thereabouts) the '30s and was danced by many for whom it WAS swing. Is a dance defined by it's music? If so, then Balboa is one of the two defining swing dances (the other being Lindy). East coast swing is a studio invention and west coast swing, derived from Dean Collins style Lindy, is a relative late comer.

Balboa not a swing dance?? Ach.

[Steve Pastor]

"East coast swing is a studio invention and west coast swing, derived from Dean Collins style Lindy, is a relative late comer."

It is certainly very questionable as to whether Dean Collins had much of anything to do with West Coast Swing. Note that this biography at http://www.caljazzdance.com/biodeancollins.html does not mention WCS.

What is most likely is that Dean had a high profile, and was dancing swing on the West Coast, so people connected him with West Coast Swing. (I actually saw this happen when reading an article in the New York Times with a librarian, who concluded, "Dean Collins started West Coast Swing", when the article had Dean's name, and "West Coast Swing" in the same paragraph, but said no such thing. Once I pointed it out, they agreed they had been mistaken.)

In fact, WCS came from the dance known as "Western Swing", and was first written down and taught by Laurie Haile for the Arthur Murray Studio in Santa Monica, CA in 1951. Lauire is supposed to have documented the most prevalent style in the Los Angeles area.
And by the way, the most popular music in the LA basin in the late 40s, early 50s when this happened wasn't blues or the swing bands that we always hear about, but "Western Swing" played by people wearing cowboys hats and such. http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=13426

The dance became known as "West Coast Swing" around 1958 when Skippy Blair advertised it as such. Murray studios, according to Skippy Blair, was teaching "Eastern Swing" in the early 1950s. Maybe one of our long time experts will remind us if that is the same as "East Coast Swing".

(My apolgies to those of you who have read this a hundred times already.)

[LindyKeya]

Is Balboa a sort of swing?

Yes. Although I guess this might depend on what one's definition of what counts as swing is.

And yes, technically it is the same rhythm as Mambo, being step-step-step-hold.

[tangotime]

[quote=Steve Pastor;522845
The dance became known as "West Coast Swing" around 1958 when Skippy Blair advertised it as such. Murray studios, according to Skippy Blair, was teaching "Eastern Swing" in the early 1950s. Maybe one of our long time experts will remind us if that is the same as "East Coast Swing".


[/quote]


Same, same, the A.M. studios in Calif. concentrated most of their " swing " teaching on the W.coast version . When i started teaching in L.A. many teachers did not even know E C S , and the same can be said about the lack of knowledge about the WCS in the Eastern schools . I still have A/m charts from the eighties ( Br, thru G. Bar ) and no mention of WCS. on E. coast charts .

Incidentally 2 of the best Balboa dancers in the area both worked for A/M in the Wiltshire studio ( where it was first taught to me ) Ruth Silvey and Jim Keiffner

[tangotime]

Yes. Although I guess this might depend on what one's definition of what counts as swing is.

And yes, technically it is the same rhythm as Mambo, being step-step-step-hold.

In correct-- it has a double time rhythm as i stated in my previous post .

[LindyKeya]

What?? You can accentuate those steps in a number of different ways, but the basic footwork for Bal is three steps and a hold. (Just like Salsa and Mambo are three steps and a hold. What you do with the hold is a matter of preference.)

I have never heard the term "double time" used in any other way than what Peaches seemed to understand. I have heard it used with swing as in "single swing" with one step to the side, instead of a chassez, or "double swing" as a step, tap, instead of a chassez. The time stays the same. In any usage I've heard, doing Bal "double time" would be for those dancers who decide they're going to do Bal at a proper Bal tempo, even though the song is slow, so they would go "double time," i.e., twice the actual rhythm of the song.

[tangotime]

What?? You can accentuate those steps in a number of different ways, but the basic footwork for Bal is three steps and a hold. (Just like Salsa and Mambo are three steps and a hold. What you do with the hold is a matter of preference.)

I have never heard the term "double time" used in any other way than what Peaches seemed to understand. I have heard it used with swing as in "single swing" with one step to the side, instead of a chassez, or "double swing" as a step, tap, instead of a chassez. The time stays the same. In any usage I've heard, doing Bal "double time" would be for those dancers who decide they're going to do Bal at a proper Bal tempo, even though the song is slow, so they would go "double time," i.e., twice the actual rhythm of the song.




I taught this back in the late fifties/early sixties in LA-- the basic commences with a double back break-- rock and tap step, the tap is the double time rhythm.



Double time rhythm is also used in E C swing . as you stated ( and Latin hustle , many more e.g. )
In musical/dance terms, "double " means employing a whole beat without a weight change , not an increase in speed ( that would denote a Q or an "and " )

Also-- PR style salsa is often danced with a " double time " movement , tapping on 2 and breaking on 3--

[d nice]

Wait! Balboa is the FIRST dance ever to be called swing. Lindy was called Lindy, not swing. Bal is a street dance that originated in Orange county (or thereabouts) the '30s and was danced by many for whom it WAS swing. Is a dance defined by it's music? If so, then Balboa is one of the two defining swing dances (the other being Lindy). East coast swing is a studio invention and west coast swing, derived from Dean Collins style Lindy, is a relative late comer.

Balboa not a swing dance?? Ach.

Actually the old timers I've talked to, as well as a coupl of historians on Balboa viewed L.A. style Swing and Balboa as two separate dances. "Straight" or "Pure"
Balboa never leaves that closed position and as such does not really fit in the
academically defined category of Swing, but the lack of swung footwork, polyrhythms, polymetrics, and visible rhythms all disqualify it.

[d nice]

Okay, I can't stress this enough, the world of Ballroom Studio Dance has absolutely nothing to do with the invention or origination of a vernacular Swing dance. The music that was popular in clubs at a specific period of time that Laurie notated the dance does not equal to the style of music that the dance was most often danced to, et alone the style of music the best dancers danced to, nor the style of music that the dance was danced to originally.

If that was the case you'd think breakdancing was done to new wave and 80's pop music, when the truth is despite what the charts, club bookings in NYC, and even some of the earliest clips of breakin' show, it was danced to a relatively unknown form of music that was only popular with the original dancers and their crowd.

Dance history does not begin and end with an Arthur Murray Syllabus.

[tangotime]

.

Dance history does not begin and end with an Arthur Murray Syllabus.

Couldnt agree with you more -- to a point -- the relevance of WHAT we teach and dance in todays market place, is primarily due to the influence brought about BY the dance schools .

Pretty much all dances in the original format ,were rejected by the general public at large ( kinda why balboa didnt transition ). The modification of of a genre has meant in general terms--- acceptance .
I danced thru the jitterbug/ bop period , and until it was " calmed " down ( thats a moot point ! ) joe public did not acknowledge it as socially acceptable .
Without the inventive minds of Ballroom in particular,
I wonder if todays " dances " would enjoy the same world wide popularity .

[tangotime]

Actually the old timers I've talked to, as well as a coupl of historians on Balboa viewed L.A. style Swing and Balboa as two separate dances. "Straight" or "Pure"
Balboa never leaves that closed position and as such does not really fit in the
academically defined category of Swing, but the lack of swung footwork, polyrhythms, polymetrics, and visible rhythms all disqualify it.




I doubt if very few outside of S.Calif. has ever seen a " classical " balboa style performed .

I had a young couple who were Lindy proficient, ask me for a lesson in the basic foundation ( this was on the e.coast ) -- they could not believe what transpired .

[ognat]

Not to be pedantic, but in today's vernacular, Balboa includes BOTH "pure" bal and bal-swing. Among the better, and even the modestly decent, of today's balboa dancers, triple steps, fan steps etc are swung and all the swing feel that fits the music is present, both in the footwork and in the lead-follow partner interactions. Moreover, even at roaring tempos, the better dancers can dance it with much of the feeling and connection that comes through in Lindy or even blues dance. It is not just a rhumba / cha-cha straight rhythmic feel. etc. yada-yada.

[Angel HI]

Wait! Balboa is the FIRST dance ever to be called swing. Lindy was called Lindy, not swing. Bal is a street dance that originated in Orange county (or thereabouts) the '30s and was danced by many for whom it WAS swing.

Firstly, I apologize for having been away for a few. Secondly, I am surprised that TT (TangoTime) did not straighten you out on this. We all know that history is always me a matter of his-story rather than 100% accurate facts. Having said that, Balboa was not the first dance ever to be called swing.

The term swing was somewhat of a double entendre coming from the slang of the day and the name given to the big bands that played that music. As they played, sections of the bands would stand and sway or "swing" from side to side as they played. For this, they acuqired the name swing bands. and the dances done to the "swing" music later became known as "swing" dances...named after the "swing" bands.

You are correct in that prior to this Stomp (the popularized version of the old slave dance that we commonly call single-time swing), and Lindy (the two-step variation named for Lindbergh) were simply called by their names. Balboa was invented as I said earlier as a swing alternative to be danced in situations where the larger swing moves were inappropriate.

Not to be pedantic, but in today's vernacular, Balboa includes BOTH "pure" bal and bal-swing. It is not just a rhumba / cha-cha straight rhythmic feel. etc. yada-yada.

You are also correct in this. Bal did come to be included with and as a swing dance, and today's dancers don't make any real distinction. Persons who can really do it, like the current Cali. champs, are absolutely phenomenal to watch.

[tangotime]

Secondly, I am surprised that TT (TangoTime) did not straighten you out on this.






I guess I was in shock !!! :rolleyes:

[d nice]

Couldnt agree with you more -- to a point -- the relevance of WHAT we teach and dance in todays market place, is primarily due to the influence brought about BY the dance schools .

Pretty much all dances in the original format ,were rejected by the general public at large ( kinda why balboa didnt transition ). The modification of of a genre has meant in general terms--- acceptance .
I danced thru the jitterbug/ bop period , and until it was " calmed " down ( thats a moot point ! ) joe public did not acknowledge it as socially acceptable .
Without the inventive minds of Ballroom in particular,
I wonder if todays " dances " would enjoy the same world wide popularity .

You can see Swing contests with hundreds and hundreds of teen competitors on both coasts and in the Midwest in the US well before ballroom chains were teaching swing. No taming down, kids shagging in the aisles at movie theaters in the late 30's, about as wild as you can get.

Beyond that the African American population 13-43 during the Great Depression did lots and LOTS of dancing and dances that were not part of the Ballroom world, many of which can still be seen in clubs in the US and are considered socially acceptable within their (our) own culture.

If you equate socially acceptable as white, middle-age, middle-class, Midwestern, approving then sure... but considering a lot of them would still frown on the entire plethora of latin dances, and some religions even believe that dancing is wrong and a step-ball-change down the road to hell, I'm going to have to disagree.

[d nice]

I doubt if very few outside of S.Calif. has ever seen a " classical " balboa style performed .

I had a young couple who were Lindy proficient, ask me for a lesson in the basic foundation ( this was on the e.coast ) -- they could not believe what transpired .

I'd have to as where they were from and when this was done. I mean balboa was all over the West Coast as far up as Seattle back in the day, though it was certainly centered in the San Diego, L.A. area. There are thriving Balboa communities in every region in the US, and I'm surprised that there is any avid lindy hopper who has not at least seen Balboa.

[d nice]

Firstly, I apologize for having been away for a few. Secondly, I am surprised that TT (TangoTime) did not straighten you out on this. We all know that history is always me a matter of his-story rather than 100% accurate facts. Having said that, Balboa was not the first dance ever to be called swing.

Wait what? History is always a matter of his-story rather than 100% fact? Um. So The Great Depression never happened? No one ever walked on the moon? There was no war for America to win to gain it's independance from England? Sweet! I alwasy liked Rule Britania better as a national anthem. Lets not get crazy here. Sure there are some areas that are grey and some that are very grey, but some things are black and white. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water just to say that bias and perspective can play a large part in a particular POV.

The term swing was somewhat of a double entendre coming from the slang of the day and the name given to the big bands that played that music. As they played, sections of the bands would stand and sway or "swing" from side to side as they played. For this, they acuqired the name swing bands. and the dances done to the "swing" music later became known as "swing" dances...named after the "swing" bands.

Okay, none of the jazz historians I know, nor any of the books in my library ever said anything even remotely along those lines. What are your resources for this?

You are also correct in this. Bal did come to be included with and as a swing dance, and today's dancers don't make any real distinction. Persons who can really do it, like the current Cali. champs, are absolutely phenomenal to watch.

In the circles I run in, Bal generally refers to both Balboa and Bal-Swing, Balboa is used to refer to straight or pure balboa. Swing is any of the numerous swing dances.

[Angel HI]

I guess I was in shock !!! :rolleyes:

:) That's funny. Rcv'd your PM...quick response...you were smart; I should have known better.

Wait what? History is always a matter of his-story rather than 100% fact? Um. So The Great Depression never happened? No one ever walked on the moon? There was no war for America to win to gain it's independance from England?

Let's not be shallow, or are you just kidding? Of course, these things happened, and my comment stands. Since we were generally not there, all of history is subjected to the understanding/s and translation/s of the teller/s. All I meant was/is that we are never fully aware of all of the factual whats and whys.

Okay, none of the jazz historians I know, nor any of the books in my library ever said anything even remotely along those lines. What are your resources for this?

Artie Shaw, Count Basie, and Cab Calloway, who were all personal friends of mine and my family.

[tangotime]

I'd have to as where they were from and when this was done. I mean balboa was all over the West Coast as far up as Seattle back in the day, though it was certainly centered in the San Diego, L.A. area.


There are thriving Balboa communities in every region in the US, and I'm surprised that there is any avid lindy hopper who has not at least seen Balboa.


Well, I travelled and coached all over the U.S. from the late fifties thru the early 2000-- exactly where are all these thriving communities ?-- and are they really doing balboa ?.

[tangotime]

Beyond that the African American population 13-43 during the Great Depression did lots and LOTS of dancing and dances that were not part of the Ballroom world, many of which can still be seen in clubs in the US and are considered socially acceptable within their (our) own culture.


If you equate socially acceptable as white, middle-age, middle-class, Midwestern, approving then sure... but considering a lot of them would still frown on the entire plethora of latin dances, and some religions even believe that dancing is wrong and a step-ball-change down the road to hell, I'm going to have to disagree.




I grew up in the depression , not in the States but in the UK-- most teachers are more than well aware of the social aspects and its roots--- but-- and this is undeniable-- without the plethora of dance schools that promoted what we today call swing, salsa, tango etc-- would they still be in the Barrios and backwaters ?-- I strongly suspect so.

You may denigrate the more structured side of dance as we now know it-- but-- it is factual, that the variety that exists ( like or or not ) was primarily developed by the structured world of B/room . Of course the foundational templates, are still there to be seen.
Do I personally care for the direction it has taken ?-- in many cases-- no-- but to deny its impact would be foolhardy .

This is starting to stray from the original comment-- is balboa swing ?-- not in my book-- and you --remember-- are the one defending authenticity .!

[leftfeetnyc]

I doubt if very few outside of S.Calif. has ever seen a " classical " balboa style performed .

I had a young couple who were Lindy proficient, ask me for a lesson in the basic foundation ( this was on the e.coast ) -- they could not believe what transpired .


Hmmm, I'm based out of NYC and have been to Cali once for a WCS event (obviously no bal going on there).

But I've seen Bal-Swing and Pure-Bal. Hear them regularly refered to as such. Danced them both. And learned in a school gym and living rooms. From two people who can definitly be considered in the top tier of Bal dancers - yet they're based out hear on the Atlantic. One of the best events for Bal takes place in the Midwest.

So I'm going to venture a "wild" guess that yes, there are many of us not in Cali who have seen "classical" balboa. And it's popularity on the east coast has nothing to do with studios. It has to do with people sharing, watching videos, and going to national events to learn from each other.

I've also watched the DVD interview with Dean Raftery, who was dancing Bal back in the day. Pure-Bal. Would drive halfway down the coast to get to a dance. And he breaks out the difference between what we now call Pure-Bal and Bal-swing. He also talks about how packed the dance floors were, but no one was going to as studio to learn.

Back then they were refered to respectively as Balboa and Swing. So yes, Balboa does swing. In it's classical form Pure-Bal (balboa), maybe not always. But Bal-Swing (Swing) most certainly does and did - it was called "Swing" back then for a reason and to differentiate it from the strictly closed position Pure-Bal.

As for the term swing - many of the old tap dancers and jazz dancers would refer to someones dancing as swinging - refering to the movement in relation to the rhythms of the music. You can say a solo charleston dance really swings, or a soft shoe, etc. Yet someone can do those same movements and not swing. Same can be said for Lindy or Bal or WCS.

Finally, as for studios making or breaking a dance - I don't believe it. People learned from each other, stealing moves or asking for help. They practiced Lindy in the Savoy during the day or tap at the Hoofers Club, the practiced both in their livingrooms - not at Irene Castle's ballroom dance studio. And yet the Savoy Ballroom had a line of people waiting to get in because it was so packed.

Dances wax and wane in popularity, the ballroom studios have nothing to do with that. It was popular without the studios, and the waning was due to the music changing, when studios happened to be teaching ECS, and not the Lindy Hop we know today.

Back in the 80s, the Swedes learned to dance from old movies, rewatching over and over to learn two steps and then they found Marshall Stern's Book "Jazz Dance" from which they hunted down Al Minns - some of the best Lindy Hoppers in the world, and they didn't go off to a ballroom studio to learn. I could name many of the top dancers today who didn't learn in a studio. They learned from other people who had a passion for the dance and wanted to share that - on their own time, wherever they could find space.

What I see coming out of the studios are a handful of people who learn some basic steps and go out dancing a few times. From there most stop learning - a few desire to learn more and find other, more reputable, resources to improve from.

[tangotime]

But I've seen Bal-Swing and Pure-Bal. Hear them regularly refered to as such. Danced them both. And learned in a school gym and living rooms. From two people who can definitly be considered in the top tier of Bal dancers - yet they're based out hear on the Atlantic. One of the best events for Bal takes place in the Midwest.



I said I didnt know where--- not that there wasnt .



As Finally, as for studios making or breaking a dance - I don't believe it. People learned from each other, stealing moves or asking for help.


here we part company-- of course people learn from each other ( usually turns out to be a mess -- i know -- have taught many of those types )-- do they need lessons ? of course not-- would they help-- probably-- and can you deny, that ( if your old enough ) that tv programs like the A/M show DIDNT bring in thousands of people?--- we are having the same effect now with Salsa and B/room due to TV and movie exposure -- how can you possibly deny the effect of advertising on the masses ?



Dances wax and wane in popularity, the ballroom studios have nothing to do with that. It was popular without the studios, and the waning was due to the music changing, when studios happened to be teaching ECS, and not the Lindy Hop we know today.


Thats opinion-- you are isolating 1 dance-- many dances from the past have INCREASED in popularity-- and some have disappeared--- and of course we cannot control the likes and dislikes of any genre of dance .




Popular to what extent ? world wide ? most decidely not .You seem to give way too much credit, and little if any, to all of the other possibilties .


What I see coming out of the studios are a handful of people who learn some basic steps and go out dancing a few times.



But thats true in all forms of educatiion-- its the continuous VOLUME that counts, which is a hellava lot more than a handful over the many yrs .



From there most stop learning - a few desire to learn more and find other, more reputable, resources to improve from.


No argument with that -- but I believe your overall hypothosis is flawed .

Lastly-- do you have ANY conception of the numbers of people taking dance lessons WORLD wide on a weekly basis ?-- the figures are staggering . Salsa alone, is light yrs beyond "those " whom you quote, are looking to other sources .

[leftfeetnyc]

Thats opinion-- you are isolating 1 dance-- many dances from the past have INCREASED in popularity-- and some have disappeared--- and of course we cannot control the likes and dislikes of any genre of dance .

I'm sorry, I must have gotten lost, I thought this was the SWING section of the forum - therefore perfectly ok to isolate one dance and it's relation to a studio. When it comes to swinging - ballroom studios never were the be-all-end-all of knowledge. The really knowledge came elsewhere, from the people who created and lived it - in this case some of whom are still alive. And they never will - being structured around a set series of steps doesn't work for a dance that is based on improvisation and has a wealth of accessable history. Which is why swing programs regularly struggle at studios, the personality of the dance is not suited for the structure of a ballroom studio.

Therefor it's a rather moot point to be discussing the influence of dance studios in a discussion of whether or not Balboa swings and what differentiates various forms of swing.

here we part company-- of course people learn from each other ( usually turns out to be a mess -- i know -- have taught many of those types )-- do they need lessons ? of course not-- would they help-- probably-- and can you deny, that ( if your old enough ) that tv programs like the A/M show DIDNT bring in thousands of people?--- we are having the same effect now with Salsa and B/room due to TV and movie exposure -- how can you possibly deny the effect of advertising on the masses ?

And there are equally disasterous results coming from the studios. A teacher training program isn't exactly high credentials for being able to dance. In fact, in terms of swing dancing most of the information being taught by ballroom professionals is incorrect.

Sure ballroom studios numbers may be increasing thanks to TV shows, but talk to most professional dancers and they are dismayed with the representation of said dances (all, not isolating here) on these shows as a result, there is a tremendous amount of misinformation that is perpetuated by Suzy "I went through a three month teachers training program" Instructor.

You find it in anything. I can sign up for at a Tai Chi class and it's being taught by someone who studied for a year or two who now feels qualified to teach. And as a result people get hurt because the "knowledgable" instructor doesn't fully understand why we must move in a specific way. Or I can do a ton of research and find someone who has devoted their life to the practice and isn't affiliated with a school - but at least I'm learning it correctly.

Also, VOLUME isn't what counts. I can send a lot of people out to get a school, but that doesn't mean they come out educated. Additionally, those who've kept swing alive over the years weren't the ballrooms. They may have had ECS and Ballroom Jive, but those hardly swing and are a small, misrepresentative portion of the entire swing community.

[tangotime]

I'm sorry, I must have gotten lost, I thought this was the SWING section of the forum -


I do believe you were the one who stated dances come and go ?-- i was responding to that !

And there are equally disasterous results coming from the studios. A teacher training program isn't exactly high credentials for being able to dance. In fact, in terms of swing dancing most of the information being taught by ballroom professionals is incorrect.


Thats a matter of opinion ( credentials ) it depends on many factors-- of course its not supposed to make YOU a great dancer-- but others .





Sure ballroom studios numbers may be increasing thanks to TV shows, but talk to most professional dancers and they are dismayed with the representation of said dances (all, not isolating here) on these shows as a result, there is a tremendous amount of misinformation that is perpetuated by Suzy "I went through a three month teachers training program" Instructor.




I head that list !!-- but that was not the thrust of my comment -- and the US is unique in its approach to dance training ( i know, I worked the sysytem for over 40 yrs ) the rest of the " dance " world has an entirely different approach so we need to get away from parochial viewpoints .



You find it in anything. I can sign up for at a Tai Chi class and it's being taught by someone who studied for a year or two who now feels qualified to teach. And as a result people get hurt because the "knowledgable" instructor doesn't fully understand why we must move in a specific way.





We are in complete agreement on this issue-- something i have champione dagainst for many yrs .



Also, VOLUME isn't what counts. I can send a lot of people out to get a school, but that doesn't mean they come out educated. Additionally, those who've kept swing alive over the years weren't the ballrooms. They may have had ECS and Ballroom Jive, but those hardly swing and are a small, misrepresentative portion of the entire swing community.



it does in the context in which I placed it against your claim -- and no one said that any dance school turns out perfect products of their teaching skills- with certain exceptions .


From the tone of your post-- it would seem that you have had a bad experience within the " B/room " community -- if this is not the case-- then on what are you basing your posit ?

[ognat]

I guess I was in shock !!! :rolleyes:

What???? I don't get it. Go re-read leftfeetnyc's post regarding the early days of bal and the fact that what we call bal-swing was originally simply called swing. And that was way back in the day (30's).

With respect to my credentials, balboa (and bal-swing if you want to be picky) is one of my two primary dances (the other being tango). I have danced bal intensively for nearly 10 years, competed nationally (no, I am not and have never been Cali Bal champions - but I do know and dance with them), and am personal friends with a number of the living bal old-timers, and have listened to their stories and reminiscences. Trust me, if your Balboa does not swing, then I don't know what you are dancing (*****), but it certainly ain't Balboa.

And to expand on Damon's post regarding the terminology, in the circles that I move in, both bal and balboa are used essentially interchangeably to refer to "bal-swing". Balboa dancers nearly always say "pure bal" when they mean the closed form of the dance.

Originally Posted by tangotime http://danceforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?p=523291#post523291)
I doubt if very few outside of S.Calif. has ever seen a " classical " balboa style performed

[d nice]

Let's not be shallow, or are you just kidding? Of course, these things happened, and my comment stands. Since we were generally not there, all of history is subjected to the understanding/s and translation/s of the teller/s. All I meant was/is that we are never fully aware of all of the factual whats and whys.

No need for the hyperbole. You could have said instead something 100% factual like, "While we know how and when certain things have happened, the why is often harder to trace. When dealing with vernacular dance things become even more muddy."

Artie Shaw, Count Basie, and Cab Calloway, who were all personal friends of mine and my family.

Considering none of them were central at the beginning of the development of Swing I think I'll stick with things said by Louis Armstrong, Fletcher and Horace Henderson, and Don Redman who were.

[d nice]

You can find amazing salsa dancers who have never stepped into a ballroom. They are in clubs all over the US, and Latin-American countries. Salsa could get dropped by the ballroom community today, and ten years by now it will still be danced and developing and growing in these same places.

Lindy Hop never died. The Jiving Lindy Hoppers out of the UK, The Rhythm Hot Shots out of Sweden, and Steven Mitchell and Erin Stevens all traveled to NYC and easily found a score of old timers still dancing, and not just "average" dancers but also a collection of the Savoy's finest. In L.A. you had the same thing with both Lindy op and Balboa and Swing, old-timers dancing still. And mixed in with all of these older dancers were middle aged and 20-somethings.

Ballroom has certainly "popularize" specific dances amongst those who may not have otherwise wondered into a club, and discovered the specific dance, but the ballroom community is not the best place to learn a "street" dance and is easily among the worst.

[LindyKeya]

I'd have to as where they were from and when this was done. I mean balboa was all over the West Coast as far up as Seattle back in the day, though it was certainly centered in the San Diego, L.A. area. There are thriving Balboa communities in every region in the US, and I'm surprised that there is any avid lindy hopper who has not at least seen Balboa.

My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't consider anyone a "great" swing dancer if they aren't at least mildly proficient in Balboa.

[LindyKeya]

Well, I travelled and coached all over the U.S. from the late fifties thru the early 2000-- exactly where are all these thriving communities ?-- and are they really doing balboa ?.

All over the place, and yes, they're really doing Balboa. In 2001 (or around there), I went to a great Balboa workshop in. . . Pocatello, Idaho. Taught by Joel Plys, one of the then (and now) great Balboa dancers in this country. To this day, I consider it one of the best workshops I've ever been a student in, largely because of the skill level of the rest of the people in the workshop. In the middle of Idaho, which is basically the middle of nowhere.

And if you traveled and coached all over the US in ballroom circles, then yes, you would have missed thriving communities of all sorts of forms of dance.

[tangotime]

.

And if you traveled and coached all over the US in ballroom circles, then yes, you would have missed thriving communities of all sorts of forms of dance.

Spent 95% of my time in latino clubs , home or away

[tangotime]

You can find amazing salsa dancers who have never stepped into a ballroom. They are in clubs all over the US, and Latin-American countries. Salsa could get dropped by the ballroom community today, and ten years by now it will still be danced and developing and growing in these same places.

.

Now youre really in my ballpark-- have spent time in many latin countries from Brazil thru Peru ( not all hot beds of salsa )-- I have taught more latinos ( salsa )than you can ever imagine-- have a clue for you-- majority dont have a clue !.
Danced in latin clubs 7 nites a week yr in and yr out for many yrs, in a highly latino populated area ( cubans and PR )so this is empirical .
The B/room set,by and large, i will agree, do not adapt to the street style salsa ( which I teach ) and thats ok.

But-- the genre has been influenced beyond recognition in its variety, primarily coming from the b/room world .The whole danced is premised on a b/room version of Danzon/ Bolero-- both used as templates for Mambo morphing into Salsa

Of course you may find great dancers in any set up-- but they are in the minority ( depends on your definition of great ) Not many frankie martinez types around--

The other side of that coin-- if it were not for the millions world wide who are NOT latino-- the industry would suffer irreparably from a financial standpoint .

[Angel HI]

No need for the hyperbole. You could have said instead something 100% factual like, "While we know how and when certain things have happened, the why is often harder to trace. When dealing with vernacular dance things become even more muddy."

That says it nicely.

Considering none of them were central at the beginning of the development of Swing I think I'll stick with things said by Louis Armstrong, Fletcher and Horace Henderson, and Don Redman who were.

:confused: You are entitled, however, these guys were among the leaders of the swing era. They are the players in the "swing" bands of which I was referring. Yet, we are all allowed our preferences, and is why the above first quote/response is true.

[d nice]

Louis Armstrong, Fletcher and Horace Henderson, and Don Redman were the creators of the Swing era, not just players...

And while this may have been why you said what you said, it is not any more valid. This is people with different perspectives disagreeing on things, all statements removed from the context. If I ran into a break dancer who told me that break dancing was named that because the dancers sometimes ran into stuff and hurt themselves in the early days and it was something they had been told by an older breakdancer form the 80's I'd still have to question the statement... because while their source was a breakdancer during the height of the dance... they were not one of the originators. When the original dancers and dj's say it was because they danced to the break beats at the first hip-hop parties in the Burroughs of NYC, I'm going to have to go with those statements by those who were there... not those who came after it was popular.

IOW, history and "his-story" are not the same thing. Historians make clear distinctions when something is verifiable and when something is supposition. When something is a theory presented by a historical figure, and something is verifiable by those who did the deed and those who observed it being done, you can see a clear line.

In this particular case it is a case of "he said, he said" but it isn't actual history we are debating, it is clashing theories with no means of independent verification.

[Angel HI]

In this particular case it is a case of "he said, he said" but it isn't actual history we are debating, it is clashing theories with no means of independent verification.

Hence what I meant by the little pun...his-story. :)

[Sagitta]

In my neck of the woods - Ithaca, NY - balboa refers to the closed form of the dance, while bal or bal-swing refers to balboa which includes the open form/moves as well.