Mixing country with formal ballroom

[Robin12]

Hi all:

I have a 10-piece big band that plays formal ballroom dance music. And of course, at some of our dances we've been asked to play country music. The problem is that we can't recreate the traditional country sound - we have saxophones, trumpets, etc, but no guitars.

How would you suggest we play to make our music approprate for country dancing? Are there any songs you would reccomend?

[davedove]

Well, "Ring of Fire" by Johnny Cash used trumpets at the opening.:D

[Chris Stratton]

Take a nice, cheerful foxtrot and play it backwards?

[Steve Pastor]

Can you remember any of the songs that were requested?
If you do, that would be a good place to start.

Back in the day, West of the Mississippi, "country" music was for dancing. Carl Perkins learning to play in honky tonks and he was always paying attention to what people danced to. Early in the history of the country, and back up in the hills, fiddlers played for dancers.
The guy who help create the Nashville Sound complained that music for line dancing was ruining country music. He must have forgotten the history of the thing, or not paid any attention to what happened out West, or back in the hills.

I've been learning a lot about the Western Swing Bands, many of which were true big bands. Bob Wills once had 23 personnel in his band.

Some of the classics would be immediately recognizable with even an adequate arrangement.
To make it danceable you would have to pick something with a danceable beat.
THE classic country dance is "Two Step", in my book.
It hasn't been widely acknowledged, but people did swing to Western Swing. So that's another possibilty.

Do you have someone to do vocals?

Another classic CW dance is the polka, really!
Not a whole of guitar in this one by Dwight Yoakam. It's mostly accordian and percussion. Sub horn(s) for guitar/fiddle. http://www.cmt.com/videos/dwight-yoakam/100692/streets-of-bakersfield.jhtml
Yeah, accordian was big in the western part of country western. (Even Bill Haley's COmets had accordian!)

How good are your arranger(s) and players, or would you spell some of your people to do some songs?

Where are you located?

The best place to start would really be with some things that people have requested.

If you want to keep the discussion going, and have a bit of patience, come back.
This could be a fun challenge!

[kayak]

You might send a PM to Vince. He was a moderator on the CW side for a long time and plays in bands. So he would be a good resource.

I think if you play a fairly fast country song even without guitars, everyone will have a pretty good idea what to dance to it.

[RickRS]

Did the people asking for country have anything in mind? Were there a type of dance they were looking to do? About the country-est dance for a crowd of dancers might be the two-step or the polka. And I imagine if you listen to Western Swing classics with larger bands like Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys, while there a fiddle and a steel guitar for the sound, the horns might could carry the whole thing without too much trouble. Check out Ray Benson and Asleep At the Wheel for some updated but still traditional Western Swing. Boot Scootin' Boogie was a Ray Benson tune first and you'll hear a horn section swinging that tune in his version. Another example of a horns base tune from Ray from the same album (Keeping Me Up Nights - about 1990) would be Quiting Time.

But there isn't any law stating horns can't lay down an arrangement of a country tune, so you could see what your group could arrange with any contempory country. Surprise them!

[Robin12]

Can you remember any of the songs that were requested?
If you do, that would be a good place to start.

No, and that's the hang of it. Folks seem to be unable to ask for a specific song, just that they want country music. The closest I've gotten is "to do Shania Twain".:kitty:

How good are your arranger(s) and players, or would you spell some of your people to do some songs? Do you have someone to do vocals?

The guys in the band are pretty competent, but no one outstanding - same for the arranger (although we're lucky enough to have a house arranger. Alot of bands this size have to buy all their arrangements). No singer.

Another classic CW dance is the polka, really!

Is there a particular polka that would attract CW dancers? We've found that a polka tends to clear out a dance floor.

If you want to keep the discussion going, and have a bit of patience, come back. This could be a fun challenge!

Absolutely.

[Steve Pastor]

Two songs came to mind last night for some reason. I wouldn't exactly call them traditional country, but then, I wouldn't say that about Shania, either.
Neither of these songs had that guitar/fiddle or banjo sound.
Both date from the 60s, if I remember right.
Delta Dawn (this one was done by a female jazz singer here in Portland, who got hepped up on Patsy Cline)
Galveston

Mentioning Patsy made me think of "Walkin After Midnight".

And, I just happen to have a friend's dad's record collection here, and there's a "country hits" one from K-tel, if you remember them.

How about "Your Cheatin' Heart", Johny Cash's "I Walk the Line", or Lefty Frizell's "If You Got the Money".

Polka doesn't work with that crowd?
How about a waltz?
Bill Monroe had a very popular song called "Blue Moon of Kentucky".
Elvis, Scotty, and Bill did it 4/4.
You could start slow, then change timimg and get faster (or would that be too clever?).
Check out the wikipedia article. It has links to samples.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Blue_Moon_of_Kentucky&action=submit

Someone mentioned Foxtrot, and if you think about that timing, which is the same as in two step, and emphasize that in some of these songs, it would probably work.

[RickRS]

No, and that's the hang of it. Folks seem to be unable to ask for a specific song, just that they want country music. The closest I've gotten is "to do Shania Twain".


Well that's a corker! Your audience doesn't appear to have anything in mind other than a generic style.

Without a vocalist, recognition of the melody might be the thing that will please your audience. And that suggests classic country in my mind. And some cross over appeal, so the ballroom crowd expecting big band standards won't get turned off.

Some tunes with that "Nashville Sound" that pop into mind:

Tennesse Waltz
Crazy
San Antonio Rose

Besides Patsy Cline (she did Crazy and remade San Antonio Rose, a Bob Wills hit from the 40's) Ray Price did a lot of stuff that would work for slow dances, waltz, and foxtrot. I'm blanking on titles, but He'll Have To Go is a slow tune that might work with either ballroom or country.

Patsy Cline and Ray Price pop into mind because they drove country away from "hillybilly" into a broader base sound that wasn't guitar and fiddle driven honkytonk to get cross-over into popular music.

Problem is defining where to start; we could throw out thousands of titles without getting warmed up.

And an edit: it was Jim Reeves that did He'll Have To Go. Jim's another country artist of that era that had cross-over appeal.

[CwdTexas]

It would be hard to beat a good waltz as it could be enjoyed by both ballroom and country dancers. A couple that come to mind are Husbands and Wives by Brookes and Dunn and Could I Have This Dance by Anne Murray.

[Robin12]

It would be hard to beat a good waltz as it could be enjoyed by both ballroom and country dancers. A couple that come to mind are Husbands and Wives by Brookes and Dunn and Could I Have This Dance by Anne Murray.

Kewl, We already have "Could I Have This Dance", and "Goodnight Irene" in our book. I think the trick is that we've been playing all of our waltzes soft and sweet; country waltzes tend to have a strong beat to them. Have to look up "Husbands and Wives".

[Robin12]

Two songs came to mind last night for some reason. I wouldn't exactly call them traditional country, but then, I wouldn't say that about Shania, either.
Neither of these songs had that guitar/fiddle or banjo sound.
Both date from the 60s, if I remember right.
Delta Dawn (this one was done by a female jazz singer here in Portland, who got hepped up on Patsy Cline)
Galveston

I remember the songs, but what dance goes with them?

Mentioning Patsy made me think of "Walkin After Midnight".

That would make a good foxtrot, swing, or perhaps two-step.


Bill Monroe had a very popular song called "Blue Moon of Kentucky".
Elvis, Scotty, and Bill did it 4/4.
You could start slow, then change timing and get faster (or would that be too clever?).

:eek::o:o:o:o

[Robin12]

Well that's a corker! Your audience doesn't appear to have anything in mind other than a generic style.

Some tunes with that "Nashville Sound" that pop into mind:

Tennesse Waltz
Crazy
San Antonio Rose


"Tennessee Waltz" would be good, but I'm not sure if "Crazy" or "San Antonio Rose" would work. Unless it's a nightclub, folks around here don't like slow 4/4 songs. Even "Moonlight Serenade" empties the floor.

Any thoughts for a country 2-step?

[fascination]

no thoughts on a two-step but "their hearts are dancing", "completely" and "break up to make up" are three fairly countrified waltzes that I really like

[CwdTexas]

This is a fun excersize. I have played in a "big band" and I have been running two step songs through my head and arranging them for that sound. One that may work if you have a stand up bass or electric bass to carry the bass line is "Pop a Top" by Alan Jackson.....sounds good in my head....

Also Neon Moon, by Brookes and Dunn, is well known and may work......

[Steve Pastor]

About ten years ago there was a group that played in the truck stop bar (Mr. B's) that I frequented. As it got later, they would start playing stuff like "Route 66", and blues tunes, although earlier they were pretty much straight country.
One really cool thing they did was to play a song called "Under the Boardwalk". Maybe you remember it from the 60s? (Google yields lot of hits.) What was remarkable, and cool, was that they played it as a cha cha, and people got up to do a "partner pattern dance" know as Traveling Cha Cha (aka Cowboy Cha Cha).

So, just like Elvis, Scotty, and Bill playing Bill Monroe's dirge like waltz fast and in 4/4 time, what you would dance to a song depends on how it's played. The most obvious thing now a days is the percussion.
(Historic note... At one time the Grand Ole Opry would not allow drums. Even when Elvis played the Louisiana Hayride in 54, the drummer was rarely used and (if I remember right, had to stay behind a curtain)
'Course, if you don't have a drummer, I'd think you maybe could do something with tenor sax and/or trombone(s) to carry a beat.

Watch your dancers and see what tempo they feel comfortable with. For me at least, I don't think there's any rule that says you can't play something faster or slower than it was done originally. After all, it's not like you'll be reproducing the song... no vocalist, no guitars, no strings, etc....

I'd think getting everyone on board with a new song will require lots of effort.

Do they play music during your breaks? You might slip in a sort of country song to see what the reaction is. You and your band members socialize with people on breaks, yes? Ask people what they think.

All that said, I think the suggestion to do a "country" waltz is a good one, as a safe place to start.

(And, BTW, I'm sure you know much more about this stuff than I do!)

[Robin12]

About ten years ago there was a group that played in the truck stop bar (Mr. B's) that I frequented. As it got later, they would start playing stuff like "Route 66", and blues tunes, although earlier they were pretty much straight country.
One really cool thing they did was to play a song called "Under the Boardwalk". Maybe you remember it from the 60s?

Oh, absolutely. We play "Under the Boardwalk" closer to the Drifters' version, and folks seem to like it as a rumba. And we do "Route 66" as a fast swing.

I think what we need to find now are a couple of good Texas 2-step numbers. I just finished arranging "Boot Scootin' Boogie", and wish there was some way I could attach it to a posting here for folks to listen to.

Also, what is the tempo speed for 2-step?

[Steve Pastor]

Take a listen to this one by the Lost Trailers
http://www.cmt.com/videos/the-lost-trailers/92598/call-me-crazy.jhtml
I just happened to be listening to the video.
I can't give you a bpm for it, but I'd say it's a pretty good tempo for two step, at least for me. I'm guessing most people would want it a bit slower. Guess I'd call it uptempo.

What does everyone else think?

P.S. To most people country music isn't known for its complexity. Well, there's more there if you listen. Like, how can you miss the changing tempo in this one. (But, sad to say, lots of people do!)

[Steve Pastor]

Oh, and I love this one, also by the Lost Trailers.
http://www.cmt.com/videos/the-lost-trailers/245583/hollerback.jhtml
People here do schottische to it, but you could also a slow Two Step.
Night Club Two Step would work real well, too.
This one I can definately hear "Big Band".
Not very traditional, though, but this is one way "country" is evolving, and incorporating other sounds, which it has always done.

[Steve Pastor]

I'd love to hear your Boot Scoot!
I'll check with the adims and see if anything is possible.
You still haven't told us where you are.
Do people do the line dance, or what?

[Steve Pastor]

Here's a great page with bpms and songs.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/wil/2step.htm

"Some of the slowest beats are for pure beginners. The fun doesn't start until you get into the 160-185 BPM range. Anything above 185 beats is for the more accomplished dancer. If your music is too slow, it's hard to get the momentum you need for those snappy turns. The size of the dance floor, and how crowded it is, may determine how fast the music should be. Few people can dance a decent Two-step above 200 BPM."

[Robin12]

I'd love to hear your Boot Scoot!
I'll check with the adims and see if anything is possible.
You still haven't told us where you are.
Do people do the line dance, or what?

I'm in Southwest Ohio. The only line dancing I've seen is when we've played inside dance studios, and there the line dancing is done to salsa.

[Steve Pastor]

So, who gets to play the "8 to the bar"? piano solo in your arrangement of Boot Scoot?
When we are doing the line dance I think I'm the only one who uses it to do quick steps with those pauses in there just like the solo. (It seems so obvious to me!)

And what is it exactly that is being played? I have sort of been able to pick something out on my keyboard (I can't find a transpription of the solo anywhere.), but am not sure I'm getting it right.


P.S. Lived a couple of years in Hebron, just east of Columbus and south of Newark. You wouldn't happen to have heard of Jack, Randy, or Rick Purcell from Pittsburgh by chance?

[Steve Pastor]

More songs!
http://thedancestoreonline.com/ballroom-dance-instruction/texas-two-step-music.htm#songs

[Robin12]

So, who gets to play the "8 to the bar"? piano solo in your arrangement of Boot Scoot?
When we are doing the line dance I think I'm the only one who uses it to do quick steps with those pauses in there just like the solo. (It seems so obvious to me!)

The piano player's left hand. I wrote the bass part to line up with the 'on the beat' notes, and it seems to work out well.

And what is it exactly that is being played? I have sort of been able to pick something out on my keyboard (I can't find a transpription of the solo anywhere.), but am not sure I'm getting it right.

Most of the time I let the piano player just improvise, but this time I found a good transcription at http://country.mididb.com/brooksdunn/

P.S. Lived a couple of years in Hebron, just east of Columbus and south of Newark. You wouldn't happen to have heard of Jack, Randy, or Rick Purcell from Pittsburgh by chance?

Sorry no. I'm not near Columbus or Hebron. Are you in any bands right now? If so, what kind?

[Steve Pastor]

Ha, Ha!
Well, I finally talked two guys in the office into bringing in their guitars, and we play for a while at lunch time once a week.
We are all very much beginners.
But, hey, after working on "Blue Suede Shoes" for about a year, I can pretty much play the whole thing without messing up too much.
I'm trying to learn as much as I can about music, so keyboard seems the way to go right now.

Looks like I need Apple's pro version of QuickTime, and I think when I download the midi, and load it into my pretty new to me Yamaha Portable Grand, I'll be able to see the notes???
This is all very new to me. And it's all in addition to all the other stuff you have to learn about the music itself, and developing the motor skills, etc.
(The digital camera I bought for a trip to Africa a few years ago was not exactly easy to learn to use, either, beyond point and shoot.)

Do you happen to have a web page for your band?
(Never mind. I've been checking out your previous posts, etc.)

[Chris Stratton]

I think when I download the midi, and load it into my pretty new to me Yamaha Portable Grand, I'll be able to see the notes???

Maybe. But maybe not in a useful way. A midi file can be a literal translation of a score, but often isn't, so transcribing it back into a score can make a more or less illegible mess. Transcriptions engines may have gotten smarter since I tried it with Finale about 10 years ago, but I would guess it will still often be disappointing. (used to be able to try it in the demo version, probably still can)

Though much like automated dis-assembly of a computer program, if you know where to look, it might be able to answer a specific question for you that you have been unable to figure out by ear.

[Robin12]

Maybe. But maybe not in a useful way. A midi file can be a literal translation of a score, but often isn't, so transcribing it back into a score can make a more or less illegible mess. Transcriptions engines may have gotten smarter since I tried it with Finale about 10 years ago, but I would guess it will still often be disappointing. (used to be able to try it in the demo version, probably still can) Though much like automated dis-assembly of a computer program, if you know where to look, it might be able to answer a specific question for you that you have been unable to figure out by ear.

It depends. If the MIDI was performed in real time, the notes sort of blur together messily with a bunch of strange time staffs. But if the music was typed in (using a program like Finale), alot of MIDIs translate cleanly when converted back to sheet music.

[Robin12]

Looks like I need Apple's pro version of QuickTime, and I think when I download the midi, and load it into my pretty new to me Yamaha Portable Grand, I'll be able to see the notes???

You should be able to hear MIDI files on a number of players, including RealPlayer and Microsoft Media Player. Oddly, a number of controls that work for Wave and MP3 files don't work for MIDI, such as equalizers and visual wave displays.

Do you happen to have a web page for your band?

So glad you asked. http://myspace.com/stardust_orchestra

[Steve Pastor]

Having heard, and danced to that piano solo at least hundreds of times, I know what it sounds like. I'm just not sure my picking it out by ear skills have been up to the task.
The solo in the file at the link you pointed me to sounds right to me.
I'd just feel more confident if I had a transcription.
I have the sheet music in two different keys, and they both say simply "piano solo ends".
Guess I get to be creative.

[Chris Stratton]

A performed solo is likely to transcribe uncleanly, but if you have an actual midi file (not a .wav or an mp3 or something) it's easy enough to download the demo version of finale and see what you get. 10 years ago the key was to float the quantization at a 16th note (or maybe whatever minimum note value you expect is), but who knows what the engine is like today.

[leilaniana]

My husband choreographed a fun Viennese Waltz to Brad Paisley's "I'm Still a Guy" - our first performance together and also my first dance performance ever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPxz6TGsjSE

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Lovely performance! You look so sweet together. Thanks for sharing.

"Walk your sissy dog, hold your purse at the mall" :uplaugh:

Hope you used stunt doubles for the dog and purse... ;)

[Steve Pastor]

I love dancing to that song, especially at the end where they do the little "music box"/sissy sounding/nursery rhyme thing. The women who dance with me expect me to react to changes in the music like that. The ones who don't often seem baffled until I tell them to listen to the music.

[leilaniana]

Thanks! :D

The dog (Molly, a free gift from a Victoria Secret promotion) landed safely in a little girl's lap. The purse just ended up on the floor somewhere.

Lovely performance! You look so sweet together. Thanks for sharing.

"Walk your sissy dog, hold your purse at the mall" :uplaugh:

Hope you used stunt doubles for the dog and purse... ;)

[leilaniana]

I adore that song, and it was fun getting to interpret some of it during the dance. I don't think anyone expected that kind of a Viennese Waltz. :)

I love dancing to that song, especially at the end where they do the little "music box"/sissy sounding/nursery rhyme thing. The women who dance with me expect me to react to changes in the music like that. The ones who don't often seem baffled until I tell them to listen to the music.

[kayak]

I'm a little worried about his guy qualifications? That little dog didn't fly very far :) Much better on the purse! Looks like you two had fun.

The funnest part is you could totally come to our CW bar and dance those same moves and fit right in.