What do Women Want?

[larrynla]

People are always assuming what women want. A frequent answer is "connection, emotion, none of that acrobatic stuff."

The problem is this is just assumption. Some men say this because, after all, "women are creatures of emotion." Some women say this because that is their desire. They assume all other women (except some oddballs who can be ignored) feel exactly the same as they do. Or they like the role of tango police, and say it to shame other women into doing tango "the right way" - that is, their way.

But every woman (and man) is unique. Some women love a dance that is complex and challenging, that gives them a chance to expand on their role.

For men my answer to the question is - "Ask." I don't mean verbally. I mean with the language of the body. And always ask, even if the woman is someone you have known for years and have danced with earlier in the evening. Women and men may feel very differently at different times. Maybe she's gotten tired late in the evening, or hurt her back - or was tired earlier and has become excited and energized.

"Asking" doesn't mean a man should try all the more challenging stuff immediately. I like to try simple movements first, then less simple. I feel what works and what doesn't. A woman might be able to turn to the right easily, but find left turns harder, for instance.

The key to asking (and answering) is a good connection, and not just physically but mentally. Perhaps this is the point of some people whose answer to this question is "connection." Because without good communication and caring for and cooperating with each other not even the simplest dance is possible.

But once a couple has established a good "connection" and have become in a sense one person sharing two bodies, what does one do? Just walk?

Well, maybe that is enough for many people. "Just walking" may seem easy but the more you dance you more you realize how important the basics really are, how hard they are to do well. Getting that right as part of a couple, to the music, as part of the flow along the dance floor, can be very satisfying. And it is absolutely essential for going beyond the basics.

"Women don't like to do acrobatic stuff?" Well, maybe you don't, but is it really right for you to dictate to every other woman what she loves or doesn't love to do?

Right about here people often counter with "But acrobatics gets in the way of other people!" Certainly they do if they take up lots of space or are flashy or interfere with the flow of others. But it is entirely possible to do complex actions that are compact and inconspicuous and considerate of others. Complexity can be subtle and noticeable only to one's partner.

So instead of assuming "what women want" why don't you find out?

Laer Carroll

[bafonso]

I find it much more interesting to find out what they like and then take it away from them sometimes.

Predictable dancers are boring, never give in to it :-)

[Captain Jep]

The "what women want" thing is for beginners who are worried that they have nothing to give to their partner. Otherwise I would expect what you've said to be a given. But maybe Im wrong??

[bordertangoman]

The "what women want" thing is for beginners who are worried that they have nothing to give to their partner. Otherwise I would expect what you've said to be a given. But maybe Im wrong??


Yes, you are; For a beginner just to learn technique is enough without worrying about what women want. I think Larrynla is right maybe you have to ask.

I would offer some possibilities;

1. A bit of wow-factor now and again
2. A shared musicality
3. A sense of being safe in your confident dancing
4. Space to do adornos
5. To be dancing rather than sitting down


like the joke about women asking men to do things : "you can either ask me to do it or tell how it should be done but not both"

transposed to dance: "you can either let me dance the way I choose or you can become a leader yourself"

[bordertangoman]

Yes, you are; For a beginner just to learn technique is enough without worrying about what women want. I think Larrynla is right maybe you have to ask.

I would offer some possibilities;

1. A bit of wow-factor now and again
2. A shared musicality
3. A sense of being safe in your confident dancing
4. Space to do adornos
5. To be dancing rather than sitting down


like the joke about women asking men to do things : "you can either ask me to do it or tell how it should be done but not both"

transposed to dance: "you can either let me dance the way I choose or you can become a leader yourself"

POSTSCRIPT: If the "connection" was so important why would people bother dancing in the first place. I had a lovely dance last Sunday with a French woman who had never danced tango before; she followed me with great ease through her own dancing skills - (mostly folk, I believe); and you would never have believed that she hadnt had a tango lesson in her life.

[newbie]

- "Ask." I don't mean verbally.... I like to try simple movements...

But it's too late by then, the lady is already dancing with you.

[Heather2007]

People are always assuming what women want.

What makes a good lover? One who communicates generously and sympathetically with their partner. Same thing. (Note: question should not be confined to the follower only. Leaders have their needs/wishes too).

I had a lovely dance last Sunday with a French woman who had never danced tango before; she followed me with great ease through her own dancing skills - (mostly folk, I believe); and you would never have believed that she hadnt had a tango lesson in her life.

A testament to how clear, communicative and sympathetic you were in your lead no less.

[bordertangoman]

A testament to how clear, communicative and sympathetic you were in your lead no less.

Vous etes trop gentille, madamoiselle.

[Captain Jep]

What makes a good lover? One who communicates generously and sympathetically with their partner. Same thing. (Note: question should not be confined to the follower only. Leaders have their needs/wishes too).

Exactly.

You'll never get any woman to tell you precisely "what they want". Doesnt happen in real life : wont happen on the dance floor. Heather's answer is the best you'll get.

[Heather2007]

Vous etes trop gentille, madamoiselle.

Oui. Je sais. ;-)

[larrynla]

I find it much more interesting to find out what they like and then take it away from them sometimes.

Predictable dancers are boring, never give in to it :-)

Good point. I've found that some women get annoyed when you surprise them. Others delight in a mischievous man.

[dchester]

People are always assuming what women want. A frequent answer is "connection, emotion, none of that acrobatic stuff."
Why would I take advice from a guy on what women want? I would think that women would be much better qualified to say what they want, (not that I think they all want the same exact thing).

:confused:

[Gssh]

I am not sure that there is a specific "thing" women want.

I mean, i know myself pretty well, and i could not answer this question for myself - some days i feel mellow, some days i feel like running around, some days i want to rack up as many fancy moves as i can think of. So the idea that there is a magic formula to what women want (or even what one specific woman might want) seems overly optimistic to me.

Ampster wrote on his blog a while ago that he views the practice of "dialing in" as one of the most important parts of tango, and i think this applies here.

For a good dance we both (leader and follower) have to try to be aware of what the other person is dancing, and then try to shape something that pleasurable for both of us. And sometimes followers don't even want connection, and instead they just want lots of space to play, and sometimes doing the shuffling hug style of tango is what they feel like, and then we have to negotiate how to reconcile this with what i want.
Thats the nice thing about the tanda system - a couple that tries to calibrate to each other will usually be in sync after 1 or 2 songs, and then we have at least one song just for fun.

Gssh

[Zoopsia59]

People are always assuming what women want. A frequent answer is "connection, emotion, none of that acrobatic stuff."


I haven't read the other responses yet, so maybe someone already covered this....

In my experience, when women say they want connection etc rather than acrobatic stuff, what they really mean is that they would rather have connection done well than acrobatic stuff done badly.
If they have to choose.
Which often they do...

In truth? My personal opinion is that most people "want it all". They'd rather NOT have to choose. They'd like all the "basic" stuff (connection, emotion, solid technique on the walk, a good feel for the music, etc) AND they'd like some fun stuff, some variation, and all those things also.

As a gross generalization, I think most women (and probably men) want to feel good dancing and also believe that they LOOK good dancing. They care about how they feel inside and how they appear to others.

Does that mean that they are "too focused on showing off"? No. Does it mean they are shallow? No. Does it mean they don't understand tango? no.

Maybe somewhere in the world there is someone who TRULY doesn't care a whit how they look or how others view them when they dance tango. If they look totally horrible, sloppy, clutzy, whatever, and they know it, it doesn't matter at all to them as long as they feel good while dancing.

I've never met this hypothetical person. I imagine that few people can actually wrap their head around the idea of feeling good during a dance while at the same time knowing they look awful.

The quantity of "fancy stuff" that people feel they need to have in order to look good, feel good, and enjoy the dance is going to vary quite a bit from person to person, and even for one person from time to time. Possibly even for someone from one partner to the next.

I feel sad for anyone who feels they MUST have fancy show moves to enjoy a dance at all. For one thing, they're going to spend a lot of their tango time dissatisfied. However I will also admit to being dissatisfied if I don't dance even one dance all evening that uses more than 30% of my "vocabulary". Or if I dance with someone who I know can lead that stuff well and he chooses not to do it with me after doing it with other partners during the evening.

A single tanda often isn't the issue of "what women want". Its what they want over the course of the evening. In tat case, the answer is usually... variety.

[Zoopsia59]

some days i feel mellow, some days i feel like running around, some days i want to rack up as many fancy moves as i can think of. So the idea that there is a magic formula to what women want (or even what one specific woman might want) seems overly optimistic to me.

And sometimes followers don't even want connection, and instead they just want lots of space to play, and sometimes doing the shuffling hug style of tango is what they feel like, and then we have to negotiate how to reconcile this with what i want.

Gssh

I think there's also an element of what anyone EXPECTS from a dance and a particular partner.

If you are in a somewhat small community (as I am), you probably know the other folks and their dancing reasonably well. You know that so and so is great at tango and not as great at milonga. Or you know that someone has a great simple close-embrace and someone else is a lot of fun at sweeping nuevo. (just in writing that I know exactly which leaders I'd tag with those descriptions in my community)

Now certainly people can surprise you. I recently had a wonderful tanda with someone who I always enjoyed, well... ok, but never got really excited about because his use of traditional highly rhythmic music (think D'Arienzo) didn't feel peppy enough for my taste (and that's what we seemed to always end up dancing). Everything else felt good, but he didn't seem to be able to use the music or the rhythm.

That night we happened to dance a tanda to soft "flowy" neo stuff and it was GREAT. I don't think even he realized how much better that music suited his way of moving, but he USED the music in a way I hadn't ever known him to. I also played more myself (because I had time) and he loved what I put in. We really created a dance together, and we had never done that before.

Point to the story... I'll definitely be trying to catch his eye for that style of music again!

But for the most part, you kinda get a feel for what you enjoy most with specific partners and you start to EXPECT that.

So when the guy who is great at close embrace simple stuff decides he wants to do something completely different, and he's going to use his tanda with YOU to do it... then it might be dissapointing, especially if you were really looking forward to dancing with him because he's the best at the close stuff.

Or the leader you usually have a fun tanda of big moves that really challenge you decides he's tired and he does nothing more than basic walking & ochos, and leaves out all his sacadas, ganchos, turns, whirls, unusual stuff he invented, etc... well... damn.... I've been walking all night, and I finally get to dance with him, and all we do is walk... darn.

Does it mean that I'm dissapointed whenever a leader doesn't do anything fancy?
No.
It means I'm dissapointed that THIS PARTICULAR leader didn't do anything fancy because I know he can, and I know I enjoy it with him.

Again... point to the story? What do women want?
Variety
Otherwise they'd just find someone who dances "what they want" and try to partner up with him in a way that they mostly just dance with him all night.

[bordertangoman]

Maybe somewhere in the world there is someone who TRULY doesn't care a whit how they look or how others view them when they dance tango. If they look totally horrible, sloppy, clutzy, whatever, and they know it, it doesn't matter at all to them as long as they feel good while dancing.
.

thats me. I spent years avoiding looking at myself when friends had videod me

and I noticed with some dancers i danced with on Sunday felt fine to dance with but didn't look so good when you watched them, but I dont know why there was this paradox

[Zoopsia59]

thats me. I spent years avoiding looking at myself when friends had videod me

and I noticed with some dancers i danced with on Sunday felt fine to dance with but didn't look so good when you watched them, but I dont know why there was this paradox

I'm not following you (sorry... no pun intended..) it sounds like you are saying just the opposite... you avoided watching yourself.. because you didn't care? If you AVOIDED it, it sounds like you DID care (and didn't want to know). If you didn't care, it wouldn't matter enough to avoid it, would it?

Also, maybe its just the wording, but it seems like you are saying that your partners didn't look good when you finally watched.. not that YOU didn't look good?

I'm just saying I'm confused by your response.

[Dave Bailey]

Maybe somewhere in the world there is someone who TRULY doesn't care a whit how they look or how others view them when they dance tango.
That'd be me then :)

Or... at least... that reflects my priorities. Up until, say, a few months ago, I didn't care how I looked when dancing, I just wanted to be able to provide A/ a clear lead then B/ musicality.

Now, eventually, I'm starting to fix my sloppiness, and improve how I "look" - but to me, that's always been way waaaay down the priority list.

If they look totally horrible, sloppy, clutzy, whatever, and they know it, it doesn't matter at all to them as long as they feel good while dancing.

That said, I agree that people tend to want it all, and I'm not a woman :D

[Peaches]

Or there's wanting to look good, not just for the sake of looking good, but on the premise that good technique is often reflected in visually appealing dancing.

[Zoopsia59]

If they look totally horrible, sloppy, clutzy, whatever, and they know it, it doesn't matter at all to them as long as they feel good while dancing.


But I also assume that you or anyone else who feels this way also wants other people to want to dance with them

Even people here on the forum have stated that they WATCH someone they don't know and decide whether to dance with them based on what they see.

Therefore someone who looks bad is probably going to have more trouble convincing strangers to dance with them. Maybe word gets around that someone is a really great partner despite their "appearance"

... or maybe not.

It sorta depends on WHO gives them a chance and whether what that person says carries any weight with other dancers, how big the community is, etc....

If looking bad doesn't adversely affect someone's ability to find partners, then I can see that they might not care. But I also think that the circumstances where that is the case are probably NOT widespread. And that many people, even if they are in in one of those situations, probably assume that it WILL adversely affect them.

(and we're not even getting into the issue of caring about whether your partner looks good...)

Certainly a trained and objective eye can recognize GOOD quality of movement when they see it. But... its actually not all that easy for the average tango-er in a casual setting watching people go by on the dance floor, to judge whether a follower looks BAD because she isn't any good or because she's being led badly.

Its also sorta hard to tell when watching a stranger that she is actually a great follower and a joy to dance with even though the outward "look" of her movement/ posture/ whatever appears awkward, sloppy, amaturish.. (again.. whatever)

Maybe I'm way off base.. Maybe I'M just shallow. Or maybe its a male/female thing.

But I can't think of any woman I know who truly doesn't care if she looks like crap when she dances tango, or whether other people think so.

[Peaches]

...what she said...

[Zoopsia59]

Or there's wanting to look good, not just for the sake of looking good, but on the premise that good technique is often reflected in visually appealing dancing.

Uh... you wrote this while I was writing and it actually says what I wanted to, but much more concisely.

[Peaches]

Uh... you wrote this while I was writing and it actually says what I wanted to, but much more concisely.
Heh...and I was thinking that you'd said it so much better than I did.

[flashdance]

a foot massage with peppermint lotion?

[Ampster]

Here's my opinion of "What do women want?"---> (Beautiful at any level (http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/2009/04/beautiful-at-any-level.html)) and/or (Feell safe, smart, and loved) (http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/2009/02/make-your-partner-feel-safe-smart-and.html)

[Angel HI]

Or there's wanting to look good, not just for the sake of looking good, but on the premise that good technique is often reflected in visually appealing dancing.Interesting. I often say, only partly in jest, "It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, you have to look good." Your post is exactly what is meant by this.

[jantango]

To be held in a firm embrace by my partner.
To be protected on the dance floor.
To know he is dancing the music for himself and for me.
To be satisfied.

[bordertangoman]

I think there's also an element of what anyone EXPECTS from a dance and a particular partner.

If you are in a somewhat small community (as I am), you probably know the other folks and their dancing reasonably well. You know that so and so is great at tango and not as great at milonga. Or you know that someone has a great simple close-embrace and someone else is a lot of fun at sweeping nuevo. (just in writing that I know exactly which leaders I'd tag with those descriptions in my community)

Now certainly people can surprise you. I recently had a wonderful tanda with someone who I always enjoyed, well... ok, but never got really excited about because his use of traditional highly rhythmic music (think D'Arienzo) didn't feel peppy enough for my taste (and that's what we seemed to always end up dancing). Everything else felt good, but he didn't seem to be able to use the music or the rhythm.

That night we happened to dance a tanda to soft "flowy" neo stuff and it was GREAT. I don't think even he realized how much better that music suited his way of moving, but he USED the music in a way I hadn't ever known him to. I also played more myself (because I had time) and he loved what I put in. We really created a dance together, and we had never done that before.

Point to the story... I'll definitely be trying to catch his eye for that style of music again!

But for the most part, you kinda get a feel for what you enjoy most with specific partners and you start to EXPECT that.

So when the guy who is great at close embrace simple stuff decides he wants to do something completely different, and he's going to use his tanda with YOU to do it... then it might be dissapointing, especially if you were really looking forward to dancing with him because he's the best at the close stuff.

Or the leader you usually have a fun tanda of big moves that really challenge you decides he's tired and he does nothing more than basic walking & ochos, and leaves out all his sacadas, ganchos, turns, whirls, unusual stuff he invented, etc... well... damn.... I've been walking all night, and I finally get to dance with him, and all we do is walk... darn.

Does it mean that I'm dissapointed whenever a leader doesn't do anything fancy?
No.
It means I'm dissapointed that THIS PARTICULAR leader didn't do anything fancy because I know he can, and I know I enjoy it with him.

Again... point to the story? What do women want?
Variety
Otherwise they'd just find someone who dances "what they want" and try to partner up with him in a way that they mostly just dance with him all night.

A female friend said something similar. She seen a leader doing nice things with other dancers. she was disappointed because he dodn't do the things he had been doing with other dancers and she felt that he dumbed down his dancing for her, perhaps because he didnt know what she was capable of.

[bordertangoman]

I'm not following you (sorry... no pun intended..) it sounds like you are saying just the opposite... you avoided watching yourself.. because you didn't care? If you AVOIDED it, it sounds like you DID care (and didn't want to know). If you didn't care, it wouldn't matter enough to avoid it, would it?. Maybe there's an element of truth there; It is about how it feels rather than how it looks, but I have other issues surrounding looking at myself

Also, maybe its just the wording, but it seems like you are saying that your partners didn't look good when you finally watched.. not that YOU didn't look good?

.

when i watched them dance with other dancers they didn't look so good; but to dance with
there was a nice connection.

[Heather2007]

Or there's wanting to look good, not just for the sake of looking good, but on the premise that good technique is often reflected in visually appealing dancing.

Yep, and if the sell is appealing then the buyer is willing

[Dave Bailey]

But I also assume that you or anyone else who feels this way also wants other people to want to dance with them
Yeah... Maybe I'm naive, but I kind of assumed if I get a good enough lead, first, then I'd get more dances - certainly more "repeat business" - than if I looked good but had a poor lead.

Obviously, I want both, but it's just a question of prioritising. The way I learn, I find it best to focus on one thing at a time.

Even people here on the forum have stated that they WATCH someone they don't know and decide whether to dance with them based on what they see.
Yeah. But what are they looking for, when watching? It is possible to see when a lead is good and musical, even if the man looks a bit sloppy on the footwork side of things.

Therefore someone who looks bad is probably going to have more trouble convincing strangers to dance with them.
Whereas someone who feels bad is very unlikely to get repeat business. Once bitten, etc.

In addition, I think it's more important for a woman to look good than a man - arguably, the man's job is to show the woman off. Or, one of the jobs anyway.

[Dave Bailey]

Or there's wanting to look good, not just for the sake of looking good, but on the premise that good technique is often reflected in visually appealing dancing.
I guess it all depends what you mean by "looking good"... :D

[Captain Jep]

Yeah. But what are they looking for, when watching? It is possible to see when a lead is good and musical, even if the man looks a bit sloppy on the footwork side of things.
....
In addition, I think it's more important for a woman to look good than a man - arguably, the man's job is to show the woman off. Or, one of the jobs anyway.

Im finding this thread really interesting. Maybe I've just got low expectations. Because when I'm watching dancing , and watching men dance, the only thing Im really thinking about is "does he follow the music? Is he playing with it and having fun with it? Does he make his partner laugh?" All the other stuff - whether he is personally appealing/whether his footwork is good etc - all of that is irrelevant.

The secondary thing I look for is floorcraft. Because eventually I will be on the same floor dancing with that leader. Can I feel safe behind him? Is he following the line of dance? Usually the two things go together, but not always...

[dchester]

Soon after I first started tango, I asked some women what they looked at to decide who they wanted to dance with. There seemed to be two groups of replies, those who looked at what the men were doing (or how they looked), and a smaller group who focused on how the women looked, to decide which guy to dance with.

One interesting reply from a teacher, was that she looked at the follower's face, to make her decision. If the follower looked relaxed and contented, that leader was who she wanted to dance with, whereas she tended to avoid the leaders whose followers looked confused, tense, or petrified.


I guess one of these times at a milonga, I'll have to try watching the men. Normally, all of my attention is on the women.

:cool:

[Peaches]

My head asplode.

See, and this is what will get me to the point of just not caring what I look like, or what other people will look at and notice. I can't...scratch that, I don't care to take the time or make the effort to...keep track of all the various ways people can be watching or judging.

(Also thinking...I wonder how it gets interpreted when people see me, if they notice, dancing with my eyes shut and my tongue sticking out. I've started noticing that I do this when I'm happy dancing. Heh.)

[bordertangoman]

Like this peaches?

[bordertangoman]

hmm I'm a foot and leg watcher myself: I can tell more from how a foot lands on the floor
than the average phrenologist.

[Peaches]

Something like that, yes.

[etp777]

The answer is simple. To quote the Tootsie roll commercial: "The world may never know"

[Wolfgang]

This question has no answer.
What women want and what they'll tell you they want are two totally different things.

[Zoopsia59]

.
To be satisfied.

Yes, but I think what the guys are asking is... what does THAT mean, specifically? What makes you feel satisfied? (uh... really hard to avoid the innuendo on this thread!)

[Temza]

My preferences, in this particular order: firm but gentle embrace; musicality; clear and confident lead.

I personally am more interested to know what men want. Or is this supposed to be obvious or irrelevant? "Just turn up girl"?
Maybe somebody can start a new thread? (I don't know how)

[Zoopsia59]

she tended to avoid the leaders whose followers looked confused, tense, or petrified.

:cool:

This is only a good strategy if you watch the follower with several different leaders and also take into account her overall skill level and personality.

Its possible that the follower is just confused, tense, and petrified because she's scared stiff at dancing or being at the milonga at all. Maybe its her first. Or that she's dancing with someone she REALLY wants to impress and it makes her nervous (I have a tendency to get worse during the 2nd song of a tanda if I have realized during the 1st song that this stranger is actually REALLY REALLY good. I get it back together for the 3rd song) Or she's not used to dancing with strangers. Or that she just realized that she's only able to follow people from her class... or... or...

really there's hundreds of reasons for a follower to look tense and confused, many of which have little to do with the leader and some of which can't be relieved by even the best leader.

However, there's only one reason for her to look relaxed and blissful...

[Zoopsia59]

A female friend said something similar. She seen a leader doing nice things with other dancers. she was disappointed because he dodn't do the things he had been doing with other dancers and she felt that he dumbed down his dancing for her, perhaps because he didnt know what she was capable of.

I had trouble for awhile getting anyone to dance with me... I wasn't in the classes that the more popular teachers gave so I didn't know those people except from the milongas. (most everyone in the community were their students) I danced with anyone who asked me, and most of those people were beginners. So the more advanced dancers figured I couldn't do anything more (they weren't advanced enough to recognize quality of movement... only complexity of steps)

I took some private lessons from these teachers and expressed my frustration. The guy said he'd help me out with that because he felt there was no reason the better leaders should think I wasn't "good enough".

Then when the teacher finally danced with me a time or two at a milonga, what did he do? Nothing but the simple stuff. HE knew I could do more, because he'd done very fancy moves and complex figures with me in my lessons and often praised me. I was hoping he'd show me off so other leaders would see what I was capable of. But instead it reinforced the problem.

Dissapointed? You betcha!

[Ampster]

Then when the teacher finally danced with me a time or two at a milonga, what did he do? Nothing but the simple stuff. HE knew I could do more, because he'd done very fancy moves and complex figures with me in my lessons and often praised me. I was hoping he'd show me off so other leaders would see what I was capable of. But instead it reinforced the problem.

Dissapointed? You betcha!

IMHO, this is probably why (an old thread of mine) Why_some_women_are_not_asked_to_dance (http://dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=410731&postcount=1)

[bordertangoman]

This is only a good strategy if you watch the follower with several different leaders and also take into account her overall skill level and personality.

Its possible that the follower is just confused, tense, and petrified because she's scared stiff at dancing or being at the milonga at all. Maybe its her first. Or that she's dancing with someone she REALLY wants to impress and it makes her nervous (I have a tendency to get worse during the 2nd song of a tanda if I have realized during the 1st song that this stranger is actually REALLY REALLY good. I get it back together for the 3rd song) Or she's not used to dancing with strangers. Or that she just realized that she's only able to follow people from her class... or... or...

really there's hundreds of reasons for a follower to look tense and confused, many of which have little to do with the leader and some of which can't be relieved by even the best leader.

However, there's only one reason for her to look relaxed and blissful...

give her some chocolate before you dance;)

[dchester]

I personally am more interested to know what men want. Or is this supposed to be obvious or irrelevant? "Just turn up girl"?
Maybe somebody can start a new thread? (I don't know how)
In this rather lengthy thread (below), a few of us did start to talk about that. I just hope I get the link to go to the right place in the thread.

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=589529

[Zoopsia59]

IMHO, this is probably why (an old thread of mine) Why_some_women_are_not_asked_to_dance (http://dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=410731&postcount=1)

I'm not sure which one of those things in your list you are saying applied to my situation.

[Zoopsia59]

give her some chocolate before you dance;)

BINGO!

BTM gets the grand prize! He's figured out what women REALLY want and how to make them blissful!

Which is better... a mediocre tanda with great chocolate, or a great tanda with bleh chocolate?

Tough call....

[kieronneedscake]

My local milonga organiser did a tango with chocolate fountains event on a few occasions. There were unexpected consequences...

Several women forsook the dancefloor and consumed liquid yum to excess, whereupon they did not feel like dancing. Others dared not for their waistlines. It was all very confusing.

[Ampster]

Originally Posted by Ampster http://dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=697190#post697190)
IMHO, this is probably why (an old thread of mine) Why_some_women_are_not_asked_to_dance (http://dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=410731&postcount=1)


I'm not sure which one of those things in your list you are saying applied to my situation.



My guess, judging from my limited perception of you, based on the descriptions, look and feel from your posts, past and present:
Intimidation:
Some women are not asked to dance because the men who are in the milongas are totally intimidated by how good you look, and how good you move

Nobody knows you:
People normaly go with the familiar. If you're a stranger, it will probably harder for someone to drum up courage to ask you

The Cliques:
Some people in cliques will only dance within that group
If you happened to be in a milonga that was pervaded, then you'd probably end up not being asked

[Peaches]

My local milonga organiser did a tango with chocolate fountains event on a few occasions. There were unexpected consequences...

Several women forsook the dancefloor and consumed liquid yum to excess, whereupon they did not feel like dancing. Others dared not for their waistlines. It was all very confusing.Obviously, they were doing it wrong.

The whole point is to consume the chocolate for energy to dance, which will then burn off the calories, thus saving the waistline. See!

(It's my fantasy and I'm happy with it. Shhh!!! :D)

[Peaches]

I had trouble for awhile getting anyone to dance with me... I wasn't in the classes that the more popular teachers gave so I didn't know those people except from the milongas. (most everyone in the community were their students) I danced with anyone who asked me, and most of those people were beginners. So the more advanced dancers figured I couldn't do anything more (they weren't advanced enough to recognize quality of movement... only complexity of steps)Wow. I thought it was just me who had this issue. Or that perhaps that wasn't the issue, and I was just using it as an excuse for something else. (It could still be that, I suppose.)

Nice to know I'm not the only one who seems to have encountered this situation.

[Ampster]

Originally Posted by Zoopsia59 http://dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=697174#post697174)
I had trouble for awhile getting anyone to dance with me... I wasn't in the classes that the more popular teachers gave so I didn't know those people except from the milongas. (most everyone in the community were their students) I danced with anyone who asked me, and most of those people were beginners. So the more advanced dancers figured I couldn't do anything more (they weren't advanced enough to recognize quality of movement... only complexity of steps)

Wow. I thought it was just me who had this issue. Or that perhaps that wasn't the issue, and I was just using it as an excuse for something else. (It could still be that, I suppose.)

Nice to know I'm not the only one who seems to have encountered this situation.

You know... I just have to say this. I'm not picking on anyone, nor any place/venue in particular. This is just my opinion.

In a more "Tango mature" place/venue/environment, people can and will easily see beyond the steps. They will see the quality of movement behind the steps and know how well (or bad) you move. It's easy to pick out the step collector from the one who can truly dance well just by watching their smoothness, elegance, and preciseness in following. This then leads to lots of foot aches because you hardly sit down.

[tangomaniac]

BAsed on a non random survey I conducted of women in Washington, DC and Denver, the results are:

Dance in close embrace without flashy figures
Whatever a man leads, it should be in time to the music
Whatever is lead, has to be lead with confidence

Michael
Washington, DC

[shutterbox]

BAsed on a non random survey I conducted of women in Washington, DC and Denver, the results are:

...
Whatever a man leads, it should be in time to the music
..



Personally, I would say that whatever a man leads, it should be with the music. Not all music requires one to be in time.

[newbie]

Personally, I would say that whatever a man leads, it should be with the music.

I would say that whatever a man leads, it is with the music. There are so many instruments, you cannot avoid being with one of them.

[Peaches]

I would say that whatever a man leads, it is with the music. There are so many instruments, you cannot avoid being with one of them.
So.not.true.

I have had my share of dances with guys who were not with anythiing at all. Anything. At all. Not the beat, not the instruments, nothing.

Being the daughter of a musician, having been raised to listen and feel and (partially) understand music, and being the wife of a musician, it pains me when I have one of those dances. And it partially amazes me...I'm not entirely sure how one could be so completely off the music, but they manage somehow.

[tangomaniac]

So.not.true.
And it partially amazes me...I'm not entirely sure how one could be so completely off the music, but they manage somehow.

It's simple. Those men are dancing for themselves and not including you in the dance. Also, they are fixated on some figure they learned in class and will force it into the dance, whether it fits or not.

Here's the flip side. Do you continue to dance with men who don't give you a good dance?

[Peaches]

It's simple. Those men are dancing for themselves and not including you in the dance. Also, they are fixated on some figure they learned in class and will force it into the dance, whether it fits or not.

Here's the flip side. Do you continue to dance with men who don't give you a good dance?Generally, yes. I'm not good enough that I can fill a dance card only with the best around. Also, I think it's kind of rude to start blacklisting people only because they're "not good enough" (assuming we're not in the realm of dangerous or skeevy).

As to the first part... I'm not so sure. I don't know that they know how to listen to the music, and what to fit the movements to. It strikes me that they've never been taught to hear the music as anything more than just background music. (Or they're beginners and concentrating so hard on just trying to lead without crashing...in which case I don't hold it against them at all. They're trying the best they can.)

[etp777]

Certain people jsut can't "hear" the music, so to speak. Like you Peaches, I grew up with musicians, so I can't really say whether it's something that has to be taught, or can come naturally, but there are certainly some people who just don't get it. Follows do it to, and I try to keep the dance on beat (and phrased, if possible), but sometimes you just have to grin and bear it. I try to concentrate on other things, enjoy good frame, or an attentive follow, etc, and do my best to ignore fact I'm having to dance off the beat. :)

[jantango]

Certain people jsut can't "hear" the music, so to speak. Like you Peaches, I grew up with musicians, so I can't really say whether it's something that has to be taught, or can come naturally, but there are certainly some people who just don't get it. Follows do it to, and I try to keep the dance on beat (and phrased, if possible), but sometimes you just have to grin and bear it. I try to concentrate on other things, enjoy good frame, or an attentive follow, etc, and do my best to ignore fact I'm having to dance off the beat. :)


I grew up with music in our home and had musical training from an early age. It was an asset when I began teaching social dancing. I assumed that everyone knew how to listen to music and hear the beat to dance.

This is important in tango where the man directs the dance and improvises in the moment. He has to know the music in order to be inspired by it. The music tells him what to do in that moment. If he's not connected, he is only going through the motions and thinking about steps.

I won't dance with men who can dance with the music. If a man is off the beat, it is the woman's option to get him back on it. She can delay her step and get him with the music quickly. We dance the music, so not being with it defeats the purpose. Some men don't realize they aren't with the music. If women continue dancing with them, they never learn.

[Peaches]

If a man is off the beat, it is the woman's option to get him back on it. She can delay her step and get him with the music quickly. We dance the music, so not being with it defeats the purpose. Some men don't realize they aren't with the music. If women continue dancing with them, they never learn.The question I have is, how does a follower go about doing this in such a way that it does not become a battle of wills or force? I ask because I have tried this from time to time, and generally I am met with more force from the guy to physically try to *make* me move when he wants (off time). It would seem to work if the guy is sufficiently advanced to where he can spare a bit of brain power from not crashing to devote to paying attention to the follower's feedback. Before that point, or if the man is disinclined to acquiesce to her request of more time, it just seems like it would be futile.

[tangomaniac]

Some men don't realize they aren't with the music. If women continue dancing with them, they never learn.

And that brings up the question I placed in a different thread "Is bad tango better than no tango?"

[Temza]

At my regular milongas, there is a musician who cannot step on the beat. Even to save his life. I just find it so bizarre. Admittedly, I've never heard him playing. Can anyone explain this to me? Maybe hearing the beat and making your feet hit the floor at a particular moment are two different abilities? He's sort of a friend so I have to dance with him but it's so frustrating and tiring.
I also know a woman who won't hear the beat, at all. is this some kind of a disorder, like colour blindness?

[Mario7]

At my regular milongas, there is a musician who cannot step on the beat. Even to save his life. I just find it so bizarre. Admittedly, I've never heard him playing. Can anyone explain this to me? Maybe hearing the beat and making your feet hit the floor at a particular moment are two different abilities? He's sort of a friend so I have to dance with him but it's so frustrating and tiring.
I also know a woman who won't hear the beat, at all. is this some kind of a disorder, like colour blindness?
I have a hunch that a 'musician' could possibly start the momentum of his step with the beat instead of ending it on the beat. I say this because I, a musician in my past life, had that problem. It took two weeks and someone finally explaining it clearly to me, to land on the beat with my foot on the floor, before I 'got' it.:oops:
If I were you, I would plain out tell him this...it's impossible to ignore once it's obvious.

[Steve Pastor]

At my regular milongas, there is a musician who cannot step on the beat. Even to save his life. I just find it so bizarre.
I'm not a musician, really, but here's one take on it.
I am fascinated with the idea of dancing more than one rhythm at a time, but have been unable to find a class in African dance, where it is quite common. (The class I was going to take was cancelled, because of low enrollment.)
I briefly considered drumming, as with a drum kit. But then I realized that in drumming, you are in one place, and in dancing you either can, or do move around. So, learning on a drum kit wouldn't help me out with the physical part of training my body to move in the sense of dancing.
It's rhythm, or rhythms, yes, but connecting those rhythms to specific movements is also important.
Does that make sense?

As far as training goes, here's something from the US (Skippy Blair) that is applicable, (paraphrasing)
We are guilty of planting weeds when we teach patterns without relating what we teach to the music, and assuming people "Just want to have fun..
Be careful of the seed you plant: no matter how much you water the seed -
if you plant a weed, you grow a weed.

And yes, people can learn. Cultures such as many places in sub Saharan African have rhythmic movement ingrained the play of childern and in many activities. We are exposed to rhythm and movement even in the womb, or not.

For me, milonga danced as a "one step" is probably the best place to have someone practice "stepping on the beat".

[hbboogie1]

I'm not a musician, really, but here's one take on it.
I am fascinated with the idea of dancing more than one rhythm at a time, but have been unable to find a class in African dance, where it is quite common. (The class I was going to take was cancelled, because of low enrollment.)
I briefly considered drumming, as with a drum kit. But then I realized that in drumming, you are in one place, and in dancing you either can, or do move around. So, learning on a drum kit wouldn't help me out with the physical part of training my body to move in the sense of dancing.
It's rhythm, or rhythms, yes, but connecting those rhythms to specific movements is also important.
Does that make sense?

As far as training goes, here's something from the US (Skippy Blair) that is applicable, (paraphrasing)
We are guilty of planting weeds when we teach patterns without relating what we teach to the music, and assuming people "Just want to have fun..
Be careful of the seed you plant: no matter how much you water the seed -
if you plant a weed, you grow a weed.

And yes, people can learn. Cultures such as many places in sub Saharan African have rhythmic movement ingrained the play of childern and in many activities. We are exposed to rhythm and movement even in the womb, or not.

For me, milonga danced as a "one step" is probably the best place to have someone practice "stepping on the beat".

Steve,
I dance ballroom for years and never had a problem dancing on the beat that is until AT. What the hell was that music and where's the beat? I was under the impression that in Argentine tango you could interpret the music any way you wanted. I danced slow to fast music I danced fast to slow music I was great of course I had no idea where the beat was. I think a whole lot of men dance the way they do because they think the same way I did, it's tango and I only need to dance to my feelings not to the beat.
Thank God for Maestro Raul Cabral, BsAs 2003 basic group lesson. This man is a genius, in a matter of minutes he demonstrated how to hear the beat and how to step with the beat. He made it so simple in explaining if you dance slow to a fast song you still step on the beat, just every other beat. What a revelation in my tango to not only hear the beat but also the rhythm.
Life is beautiful.

[delamusica]

At my regular milongas, there is a musician who cannot step on the beat. Even to save his life. I just find it so bizarre. Admittedly, I've never heard him playing. Can anyone explain this to me? Maybe hearing the beat and making your feet hit the floor at a particular moment are two different abilities? He's sort of a friend so I have to dance with him but it's so frustrating and tiring.
I also know a woman who won't hear the beat, at all. is this some kind of a disorder, like colour blindness?

I am a musician, and have taught many musicians to dance, and some of them just can't step on the beat to save their life.

Some can.

But the ability to hear the beat, and move one's fingers and tongue and lips and arms and breath to the beat, doesn't always translate immediately to one's feet. Dancing is a much different kind of association with the music, and for people who are not innately aware of their body and its kinetics (some people are just more naturally in tune with that kind of thing than others), it is quite a separate skill to be learned.

Once you gain control of the body, a background as a musician can help you very much as a dancer. But when you're first learning to move, it doesn't necessarily give you a leg up.

[Ampster]

I am a musician, and have taught many musicians to dance, and some of them just can't step on the beat to save their life.

Some can.

But the ability to hear the beat, and move one's fingers and tongue and lips and arms and breath to the beat, doesn't always translate immediately to one's feet. Dancing is a much different kind of association with the music, and for people who are not innately aware of their body and its kinetics (some people are just more naturally in tune with that kind of thing than others), it is quite a separate skill to be learned.

Once you gain control of the body, a background as a musician can help you very much as a dancer. But when you're first learning to move, it doesn't necessarily give you a leg up.

Bravo! How enlightening. :D

[tangomaniac]

Steve,
I dance ballroom for years and never had a problem dancing on the beat that is until AT. What the hell was that music and where's the beat? I was under the impression that in Argentine tango you could interpret the music any way you wanted. I danced slow to fast music I danced fast to slow music I was great of course I had no idea where the beat was.

Ballroom is taught that there is a prescribed cadence for every dance. American tango is slow-slow-quick-quick-slow; Quickstep is Slow-Quick-Quick-Slow. So when people come over from ballroom, a lot of them are looking for a cadence. Then they are told there's no set cadence, which throws off a lot of people.

It's usually NOT taught that there are different tango orchestras, which sound different, even if playing the same composition. I find DiSarli to be the most emotional while Pugliese has the best marking..

Michael
Washington, DC;)

[Temza]

"Originally Posted by Temza http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=697169#post697169)
I personally am more interested to know what men want. Or is this supposed to be obvious or irrelevant? "Just turn up girl"?
Maybe somebody can start a new thread? (I don't know how)"


In this rather lengthy thread (below), a few of us did start to talk about that. I just hope I get the link to go to the right place in the thread.

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=589529
Thanks for pointing me in this direction. As far as I can see, nobody mentioned such a mysterious quality as the follower's 'presence' in the dance, 'input', 'contribution'. A follower can have perfect technique but feel empty and cold. I don't know how to call it. Any suggestions? Easier to describe in negative: when the follower doesn't move like an automaton.

[bordertangoman]

Thanks for pointing me in this direction. As far as I can see, nobody mentioned such a mysterious quality as the follower's 'presence' in the dance, 'input', 'contribution'. A follower can have perfect technique but feel empty and cold. I don't know how to call it. Any suggestions? Easier to describe in negative: when the follower doesn't move like an automaton.

i know one dancer who has left me with the impression that she is bored and indifferent. I no longer dance with her;

to quote Chistopher Wren: "Commoditte, Firmnesse and Delight" are what I look for in a follower.

[Peaches]

Ballroom is taught that there is a prescribed cadence for every dance. American tango is slow-slow-quick-quick-slow; Quickstep is Slow-Quick-Quick-Slow. So when people come over from ballroom, a lot of them are looking for a cadence. Then they are told there's no set cadence, which throws off a lot of people.Not really, actually. I'd say there are steps with set cadences, but different steps have different timings. Not everything in QS falls into the SSQQ pattern; not everything in tango is SSQQS. It does change.

[bastet]

Thanks for pointing me in this direction. As far as I can see, nobody mentioned such a mysterious quality as the follower's 'presence' in the dance, 'input', 'contribution'. A follower can have perfect technique but feel empty and cold. I don't know how to call it. Any suggestions? Easier to describe in negative: when the follower doesn't move like an automaton.

Don't know- but leaders have the same issue. I think it comes more from a person's personality. There are some leaders I dance with who don't have perfect technique- but have great personalities- and it shows in how they interact with the follow and others who just seems completly disinterested. Same for follows, some may be practicing great technical skills, but look and feel cold and disinterested.

Dancing is more than the sum of your technical skills, you have to put some of you in the dance or it looks dead, IMO.

[bastet]

Ballroom is taught that there is a prescribed cadence for every dance. American tango is slow-slow-quick-quick-slow; Quickstep is Slow-Quick-Quick-Slow. So when people come over from ballroom, a lot of them are looking for a cadence. Then they are told there's no set cadence, which throws off a lot of people.

It's usually NOT taught that there are different tango orchestras, which sound different, even if playing the same composition. I find DiSarli to be the most emotional while Pugliese has the best marking..

Michael
Washington, DC;)

Well- I can only say what I was taught. There is no truly set cadence for things. A rock step can be led double time or single time or whatever, for example- just depending on the leader and the music.

The only early advice I had on timing was that double times should come in pairs and (logically) resolve in a slow so you don't end up on the upbeat (unless you are actually trying to get to the upbeat to dance on it for whatever reason).

[dchester]

Thanks for pointing me in this direction. As far as I can see, nobody mentioned such a mysterious quality as the follower's 'presence' in the dance, 'input', 'contribution'. A follower can have perfect technique but feel empty and cold. I don't know how to call it. Any suggestions? Easier to describe in negative: when the follower doesn't move like an automaton.
I guess to me, feeling "empty and cold" would seem to be about the embrace. If the follower follows well and has a nice embrace, I'm going to enjoy the dance (unless I screw up). I guess I'm not clear on the input or contribution that you are referring to.

[jantango]

Thanks for pointing me in this direction. As far as I can see, nobody mentioned such a mysterious quality as the follower's 'presence' in the dance, 'input', 'contribution'. A follower can have perfect technique but feel empty and cold. I don't know how to call it. Any suggestions? Easier to describe in negative: when the follower doesn't move like an automaton.

I have read this topic listed in workshops in the USA. It's not mysterious and yet it alludes many. It can be misinterpreted to mean a woman can do her own thing in tango, taking the lead when she wants to, or stopping the man in order to express herself. I don't agree based on my experience dancing with milongueros.

A woman can feel empty and cold if she is going through the motions which are led but without transmitting any emotion because she is connected with her partner and the music. She can feel like she is somewhere else rather than in the arms of her partner. Technique doesn't make her a good dancer.

The key is really knowing the music, where it is going, and being in the moment with your partner. Then what he feels and what you feel are the same. The music inspires you to dance. Two bodies move as one. You are giving yourselves to each other in the NOW. No one is thinking steps or technique. Only pure feeling expressed with the music. Your presence is your most important contribution to the partnership.

[Steve Pastor]

Q
Thanks for pointing me in this direction. As far as I can see, nobody mentioned such a mysterious quality as the follower's 'presence' in the dance, 'input', 'contribution'. A follower can have perfect technique but feel empty and cold. I don't know how to call it. Any suggestions? Easier to describe in negative: when the follower doesn't move like an automaton.
A
A woman can feel empty and cold if she is going through the motions which are led but without transmitting any emotion because she is connected with her partner and the music. She can feel like she is somewhere else rather than in the arms of her partner.
Wish I had my other book with me today, where the dance instructor with 6 decades of experience defines some of this, at least in my view.
The key is really knowing the music, where it is going, and being in the moment with your partner. Then what he feels and what you feel are the same. The music inspires you to dance. Two bodies move as one. You are giving yourselves to each other in the NOW.
I've bolded the parts that I agree with wholeheartedly.
I think there's more to it, though, and it can be expressed more definately, and in physical terms. I hoep to bring that book tomorrow.

[Steve Pastor]

You guys give me a reality check on this. Is it helpful, or not?

Resistance (1) To oppose - to keep from yeilding to.
The natural tendency to "yield" to a "lead", ratehr than to set upa natural resistance, is a real problem for new dancers.
Resistance is NOT pushing or pulling. It is matching "reaction" to the "action" of the lead.
Matching the resistance, from one person's "center" to the other person's "center" is the ideal.


There is lots more, but if this first definition isn't helpful... I can save myself lots of typing.

[etp777]

not AT world, ballroom, but was out after our stduio party with 6 or 7 female students after party to grab drinks. I know they all listed a knowledge of a good lead, musicality, and confidence when discussing their favorite leaders at the party. I doubt their requests would be much different in AT world (though as far as I know these particular women only dance ballroom/swing/salsa). I'm sure none of them would turn down chocolate either. :)

[tangomaniac]

You guys give me a reality check on this. Is it helpful, or not?

Resistance (1) To oppose - to keep from yeilding to.
The natural tendency to "yield" to a "lead", rather than to set up a natural resistance, is a real problem for new dancers. Resistance is NOT pushing or pulling. It is matching "reaction" to the "action" of the lead. Matching the resistance, from one person's "center" to the other person's "center" is the ideal.

Steve:
This is an EXCELLENT dance defintion. However, it's not explained when the term is used. Most people hear "resistance" and think of the dictionary defintion "The opposition offered by one thing, force, etc., to another." (Webster's Universal College Dictionary).

Think about it. Why would a woman want to resist a lead? Why does a man have to overcome a woman's resistance to the lead? Yet, the word resistance is constantly used.

Dance instructors don't explain the difference between resistance and toned. When I shake hands, I give a firm grip, not a stiff grip. My muscles are toned, not flexed. Very few talk about axis and frame so dancers don't understand body alignment.

I could go on, but it's time for dinner and get ready for dancing tonight, which is ballroom. I'll have to wait until Friday for tango.

Michael
Washington, DC

[Angel HI]

Have only been reading the 2 topics in this thread, and not contributing b/c I have some distinct feelings about the music/rhythms/timings that would take us into a whole other discussion (some of you might recall from other threads). But, wanted to say on the other topic, nice post......I have read this topic listed in workshops in the USA. It's not mysterious and yet it alludes many. It can be misinterpreted to mean a woman can do her own thing in tango, taking the lead when she wants to, or stopping the man in order to express herself. I don't agree based on my experience dancing with milongueros.

A woman can feel empty and cold if she is going through the motions which are led but without transmitting any emotion because she is connected with her partner and the music. She can feel like she is somewhere else rather than in the arms of her partner. Technique doesn't make her a good dancer.

The key is really knowing the music, where it is going, and being in the moment with your partner. Then what he feels and what you feel are the same. The music inspires you to dance. Two bodies move as one. You are giving yourselves to each other in the NOW. No one is thinking steps or technique. Only pure feeling expressed with the music. Your presence is your most important contribution to the partnership.

[Steve Pastor]

What's remarkable about this book is that the author has definintions for MANY of the words we use. And they all fit together. I just wonder if they are more useful than the definitions we all seems to carry around with us. I think they are.

CONNECTION In couples dancing... the feeling of resistance between partners that makes an action and a reaction possible.

Yesterday, the dreaded "on my own axis" topic came up. This followed several dances accompanied by pushing on my left hand, and pulling on my right shoulder (and was at a practica).

"I was sort of waiting you you to connect with me."
"I WAS connected to you."
It would have been nice if some of your weight was towards me."
"If my weight was towards you, I would no longer be on my own axis."
"Yes, you would."
"NO, I WOULDN'T"

Also included in the listed definition of RESISTANCE (and left out because of the amount of typing involved!)
(2) Any time one object touches another object there is a degree of "Resistance" created. It is this degree of resistance that becomes important in the dance.
(3) ACTIVE resistance comes in a variety of degrees.

[hbboogie1]

Steve:
This is an EXCELLENT dance defintion. However, it's not explained when the term is used. Most people hear "resistance" and think of the dictionary defintion "The opposition offered by one thing, force, etc., to another." (Webster's Universal College Dictionary).

Think about it. Why would a woman want to resist a lead? Why does a man have to overcome a woman's resistance to the lead? Yet, the word resistance is constantly used.

Dance instructors don't explain the difference between resistance and toned. When I shake hands, I give a firm grip, not a stiff grip. My muscles are toned, not flexed. Very few talk about axis and frame so dancers don't understand body alignment.

I could go on, but it's time for dinner and get ready for dancing tonight, which is ballroom. I'll have to wait until Friday for tango.

Michael
Washington, DC

I was taught a simple exercise. Place a plastic CD cover between your left and her right hands with your fingers pointing up so the CD cover is held in place by resistance, no fingers. Now dance keeping your arms in proper dance position. You will find that it takes very little pressure on the CD cover to maintain a connection and gets you an excellent response to your lead. This is all the resistance that is called for in tango and men don't fight with this it's not one sided the resistance is equally shared by both.

[spot]

Woman want the same things men want


but in prettier colours.

[Heather2007]

If a man is off the beat, it is the woman's option to get him back on it. She can delay her step and get him with the music quickly. We dance the music, so not being with it defeats the purpose. Some men don't realize they aren't with the music. If women continue dancing with them, they never learn.

My highlights: These two statements are contradicting each other.

Note: some leads are naturally tone deaf and so cannot and will never hear the beat in the song. They shouldn't be ignored but instead encouraged to keep the steps basic.

[dchester]

Woman want the same things men want


but in prettier colours.
Don't most men want women (or is that just me)?

8)

[Peaches]

Don't most men want women (or is that just me)?

8)
LOL! Gotta' love ya! ;)

[etp777]

Won't hear any arguments from me, dchester

[bordertangoman]

Don't most men want women (or is that just me)?

8)


hear, hear; you are not alone.

[Joe]

I was taught a simple exercise. Place a plastic CD cover between your left and her right hands with your fingers pointing up so the CD cover is held in place by resistance, no fingers. Now dance keeping your arms in proper dance position. You will find that it takes very little pressure on the CD cover to maintain a connection and gets you an excellent response to your lead. This is all the resistance that is called for in tango and men don't fight with this it's not one sided the resistance is equally shared by both.
Now, is that amount of resistance supposed to be only in the hand?

[hbboogie1]

Now, is that amount of resistance supposed to be only in the hand?

The starting point is in the hand but you feel it all through the arm and into the upper body. When you do this exercise and lets say you lead a back ocho the resistance remains equal to both partners without any force being applied by either one because the goal here is to keep the CD cover between the two of you and remain in the dance position. If you turn to the left she has to follow to keep the cover from falling. If you move her to the right you need to follow her in order to keep the cover from falling,,,so simple but so helpful
Try it it really works
PS you can try it with a non dancer, works with anyone

[Ampster]

Now, is that amount of resistance supposed to be only in the hand?


On a side note... In AT, close embrace, the resistance is in the chest (center). You lead/follow with it, and don't need to have any resistance, nor tone in your arms or hands.

The excercise here is to have a sheet of letter paper in between you and your partner's chest. Enough resistance is applied to keep it from falling.

[hbboogie1]

On a side note... In AT, close embrace, the resistance is in the chest (center). You lead/follow with it, and don't need to have any resistance, nor tone in your arms or hands.

The excercise here is to have a sheet of letter paper in between you and your partner's chest. Enough resistance is applied to keep it from falling.
Ampsters right,
this exercise is used to prefect the open embrace.

[Peaches]

Yeah, but that's kind of only useful as a starting point.

Open embrace, or whatever anyone wants to call it, obviously makes that a moot point. And apilado will, naturally, involve a lot more pressure.

Also, IME, the pressure varies throughout the course of the lead. It builds as the intention is led, and then reverts to some "base level of resistance" as the weight change happens. Not a lot, but enough.

Also, the connection through the hand varies as well. It can be nonexistent in close embrace with simple steps, to the point of not needing that point of connection at all. But with other things--like fast pivots or boleos, particularly done in open--the resistance can be much greater, since you end up working from that connection point. (Christ, you have no idea how much $$$ it took for that silly concept to sink in. :rolleyes:)

[Steve Pastor]

And apilado will, naturally, involve a lot more pressure.

Also, IME, the pressure varies throughout the course of the lead. It builds as the intention is led, and then reverts to some "base level of resistance" as the weight change happens. Not a lot, but enough.

Also, the connection through the hand varies as well. It can be nonexistent in close embrace with simple steps, to the point of not needing that point of connection at all. But with other things--like fast pivots or boleos, particularly done in open--the resistance can be much greater, since you end up working from that connection point. (Christ, you have no idea how much $$$ it took for that silly concept to sink in. )

Hurrah!!

(except for the having to spend a bunch of money part!)

[bordertangoman]

On a side note... In AT, close embrace, the resistance is in the chest (center). You lead/follow with it, and don't need to have any resistance, nor tone in your arms or hands.

The excercise here is to have a sheet of letter paper in between you and your partner's chest. Enough resistance is applied to keep it from falling.

more important is what is written on the letter....;)

[Steve Pastor]

Let me add with the experience I had on Sunday, when I basically "left the woman alone", and she didn't try to "connect" with me, she did all her steps just fine.
But, it didn't feel like she was dancing with me.
And we come back to the "non embrace embrace", but in open.

[jantango]

Yeah, but that's kind of only useful as a starting point.

Open embrace, or whatever anyone wants to call it, obviously makes that a moot point. And apilado will, naturally, involve a lot more pressure.

Also, IME, the pressure varies throughout the course of the lead. It builds as the intention is led, and then reverts to some "base level of resistance" as the weight change happens. Not a lot, but enough.

Also, the connection through the hand varies as well. It can be nonexistent in close embrace with simple steps, to the point of not needing that point of connection at all. But with other things--like fast pivots or boleos, particularly done in open--the resistance can be much greater, since you end up working from that connection point. (Christ, you have no idea how much $$$ it took for that silly concept to sink in. :rolleyes:)


Relax your body, breath, listen to the music, and do what comes naturally in the moment with your partner. Someone wanted to take your money and made it so complicated.

So much analyzing in tango prevents people from dancing what they feel in the music. They are worried about doing it wrong for the teacher. Do what feels right for yourself.

[Peaches]

Relax your body, breath, listen to the music, and do what comes naturally in the moment with your partner. Someone wanted to take your money and made it so complicated.

So much analyzing in tango prevents people from dancing what they feel in the music. They are worried about doing it wrong for the teacher. Do what feels right for yourself.Actually, no, that's not what was going on at all. And I've never had a problem dancing what I felt in the music, that's come more naturally than anything else.

[Dave Bailey]

Also, the connection through the hand varies as well.
Amazingly, I only cottoned-on to that point quite recently - I'd always sort-of assumed hand resistance should be constant and very light.

Of course, there has to be resistance with the hand for some embraces and moves - for example, how else can you lead a soltada? - but I'm too stupid to get these things unless they're spelled-out, in triplicate, for me. And even then it takes me 6 months to get it...

[hbboogie1]

Yeah, but that's kind of only useful as a starting point.

Open embrace, or whatever anyone wants to call it, obviously makes that a moot point. And apilado will, naturally, involve a lot more pressure.

Also, IME, the pressure varies throughout the course of the lead. It builds as the intention is led, and then reverts to some "base level of resistance" as the weight change happens. Not a lot, but enough.

Also, the connection through the hand varies as well. It can be nonexistent in close embrace with simple steps, to the point of not needing that point of connection at all. But with other things--like fast pivots or boleos, particularly done in open--the resistance can be much greater, since you end up working from that connection point. (Christ, you have no idea how much $$$ it took for that silly concept to sink in. :rolleyes:)

Peaches,
The whole point of the exercise is to feel the resistance as you dance and yes it will change but never to a point where the leader is forcing you to move with his left hand, that would be arm wrestling not dancing. I hope the instructor that took all your cash explained that to you.

[Dave Bailey]

Relax your body, breath, listen to the music, and do what comes naturally in the moment with your partner.
Unfortunately that advice simply doesn't work.

There are some conventions - there have to be - otherwise it's not a dance, it's just making stuff up as you go.

[Peaches]

Amazingly, I only cottoned-on to that point quite recently - I'd always sort-of assumed hand resistance should be constant and very light.

Of course, there has to be resistance with the hand for some embraces and moves - for example, how else can you lead a soltada? - but I'm too stupid to get these things unless they're spelled-out, in triplicate, for me. And even then it takes me 6 months to get it...In my case, I was so caught up with the twin ideas of 1)keeping that pressure constant, even and light and 2)not stiff-arming my partner that I didn't realize how the connection itself could be used for various movements.

...then one day, I have no idea what was said differently or what I tried differently*, it felt right and things became effortless.

*You have your six months, in triplicate. I just know that things can be repeated, ad nauseum, for god-knows-how long..and it's not until I'm damn good and ready to hear it that it will finally make sense. I could be the same words, from the same person...or different words, from a different person. It won't make any sense...until it clicks. Thank goodness for DH, who assures me that it can be pretty normal to have the feeling of just sort of banging your head against a wall until something clicks.

[Peaches]

Peaches,
The whole point of the exercise is to feel the resistance as you dance and yes it will change but never to a point where the leader is forcing you to move with his left hand, that would be arm wrestling not dancing. I hope the instructor that took all your cash explained that to you.Christ, almighty.

Yes, I understand the point of the exercise. Yes, I know the leader should never be forcing anything with his left hand. Yes, my teacher explained things to me just fine.

Some things just take me a while. I have about zero concept of body awareness. He didn't "take all my cash." I willingly and happily paid for excellent private instruction. To learn technique.

[hbboogie1]

In my case, I was so caught up with the twin ideas of 1)keeping that pressure constant, even and light and 2)not stiff-arming my partner that I didn't realize how the connection itself could be used for various movements.

...then one day, I have no idea what was said differently or what I tried differently*, it felt right and things became effortless.

*You have your six months, in triplicate. I just know that things can be repeated, ad nauseum, for god-knows-how long..and it's not until I'm damn good and ready to hear it that it will finally make sense. I could be the same words, from the same person...or different words, from a different person. It won't make any sense...until it clicks. Thank goodness for DH, who assures me that it can be pretty normal to have the feeling of just sort of banging your head against a wall until something clicks.

Peaches I agree with you 100% I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Steve Pastor]

Relax your body, breath, listen to the music, and do what comes naturally in the moment with your partner. Someone wanted to take your money and made it so complicated.

So much analyzing in tango prevents people from dancing what they feel in the music. They are worried about doing it wrong for the teacher. Do what feels right for yourself.

I believe that this is good advice, but, it works best when, sort of like Peaches (and I;d bet mearly all of us) have put a huge amount of time, effort, and dollars, euros, pounds, etc, into learning, and internalizing some very basic things.
I also believe, and am very thankful for, people such as the author of the book I have been quoting from. That would be people who have been teaching and thinking about dance for many decades, and are willing to share what they have discovered.
The best teachers I have had are the ones that can explain what it is they are trying to teach, and can also give their students exercises so the can FEEL what it is they are trying to teach.
Once it's been fully assimilated (It's always possible to have an intellectual understanding of something, but not be able to put it to practice. And it's also possible to have it "in your body" without the slightest idea of how it actually works.), you shouldn't have to think about it anymore.
THAT'S when it starts being fun.

[dchester]

There are some conventions - there have to be - otherwise it's not a dance, it's just making stuff up as you go.
I thought that's what we leaders were supposed to do (make stuff up as you go). I was also told the fancy word for that is improvising.

[etp777]

I would say right now, based on current tenor of this thread, what women really want is not to be misunderstood. :)

[Peaches]

I would say right now, based on current tenor of this thread, what women really want is not to be misunderstood. :)
LOL, etp!

I think that when men and women finally figure out how not to be misunderstood, hell will have frozen over.

Really, though, we just want it all!!! (With chocolate and/or wine and/or...olives, in deference to F.)

[Dave Bailey]

Thank goodness for DH, who assures me that it can be pretty normal to have the feeling of just sort of banging your head against a wall until something clicks.
I think we've probably discussed this before, but it seems that a lot of learning is stop-start.

Sometimes it just takes time to assimilate something - even when you think you've "got it" yourself, you know?

Which is why I'm not sure that "going to as many tango classes as possible" is the best strategy for a new starter.

[Dave Bailey]

I thought that's what we leaders were supposed to do (make stuff up as you go).
Yeah, but only within the conventions. Unless you want to try a body-roll with double spin and backflip. Against the line of dance.

[dchester]

Yeah, but only within the conventions. Unless you want to try a body-roll with double spin and backflip. Against the line of dance.
OK, I see your point. Even when improvising with backflips and such, go with the conventions and stay in the line of dance.

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif




(Just kidding)

[Joe]

the resistance can be much greater, since you end up working from that connection point
See, I find that many women expect too much "connection," expecting to be able to use me for (re)actions that are still in large part their own responsibility.

[Peaches]

See, I find that many women expect too much "connection," expecting to be able to use me for (re)actions that are still in large part their own responsibility.True, that can happen. But be careful to separate out what is the AT style of strong (body) connection which you dislike on account of the BR background, versus what is just poor technique.

Perhaps compare the amount of resistence in the hand-to-hand connection to what you'd find/use in latin--assuming good technique? (I could be wildly off-base here, never having done that, so I'm just guessing at something that could be parallel. Feel free to tell me I'm a dumb-a$$.)