Beginner Question

[Subliminal]

So I've had my first couple lessons and I love it! I have one major problem though. I keep shifting off to the left and moving my center away from my partner. I'm pretty sure you can guess why. :headwall: I'm sure my teacher is getting tired of correcting me, but short of buying her a cattle prod to zap me with whenever I do it, can you recommend any exercises to help? I guess practice will break the habit eventually, but I haven't found anyone to practice with yet, and I'm not ready to brave the local practica without a few more lessons.

Thanks!

[Ampster]

So I've had my first couple lessons and I love it! I have one major problem though. I keep shifting off to the left and moving my center away from my partner. I'm pretty sure you can guess why. :headwall: I'm sure my teacher is getting tired of correcting me, but short of buying her a cattle prod to zap me with whenever I do it, can you recommend any exercises to help? I guess practice will break the habit eventually, but I haven't found anyone to practice with yet, and I'm not ready to brave the local practica without a few more lessons.

Thanks!

No, why? If you know the cause tell us so we know how to address the issue causing the problem.

[etp777]

My guess is a cute teacher. :)

[Subliminal]

No, why? If you know the cause tell us so we know how to address the issue causing the problem.

Oh. Sorry. :) I think it's just my frame wanting to go to ballroom or swing closed position. I'm just fuzz-headed and tired right now, what was obvious to me should have been stated in my request for help.

[Subliminal]

My guess is a cute teacher. :)

...why would I be moving away? ;)

[Nybz]

Lol after reading the clarification the original statement does make much more sense.

[etp777]

Indeed. :)

[Subliminal]

Nevermind. I figured it out.

[Heather2007]

So I've had my first couple lessons and I love it! I have one major problem though. I keep shifting off to the left and moving my center away from my partner. I'm pretty sure you can guess why. :headwall: I'm sure my teacher is getting tired of correcting me, but short of buying her a cattle prod to zap me with whenever I do it, can you recommend any exercises to help? I guess practice will break the habit eventually, but I haven't found anyone to practice with yet, and I'm not ready to brave the local practica without a few more lessons.

Thanks!

Hee, hee..you're trying to avoid stepping on her feet aren't you? Me, same when I started to learn to lead. No worries, with heaps more practice/time/whatever you'll improve - that you know that you're doing it is a good thing. Continue to enjoy, never beat yourself up and maintain your humour and all will come good :p

[Peaches]

Er...I got the impression it was more of a holdover from the ballroom frame than a fear of stepping on his partner. Could be both.

As for how to fix...good question. Not sure. If it's fear of stepping on your partner, I'd say to keep in mind that if you try to avoid her, you WILL step on her. Walk as if you're trying to walk through her and you (and her toes) will fare much better. Ask your teacher to demonstrate what the difference feels like (her leading and trying not to step on you, you following), perhaps?

If it's a ballroom holdover...try dancing with both arms (loosely) around your partner, perhaps? Just as a way of forcing yourself to keep your left side turned in towards her (not really, but as a contrast to turned out and away).

[bastet]

Er...I got the impression it was more of a holdover from the ballroom frame than a fear of stepping on his partner. Could be both.

As for how to fix...good question. Not sure. If it's fear of stepping on your partner, I'd say to keep in mind that if you try to avoid her, you WILL step on her. Walk as if you're trying to walk through her and you (and her toes) will fare much better. Ask your teacher to demonstrate what the difference feels like (her leading and trying not to step on you, you following), perhaps?

If it's a ballroom holdover...try dancing with both arms (loosely) around your partner, perhaps? Just as a way of forcing yourself to keep your left side turned in towards her (not really, but as a contrast to turned out and away).

That's what I inferred as well.

Part of the reason the follow can drift in to an offset is if you are leaving space with the right arm where she can drif to. It will take work to retrain you muscles to do something else in tango since this is one difference between ballroom and AT.

Peaches suggestion to keep both arms around the partner to practice should also be helpful retraining the arms to work differently for tango...think "around" your partner rather than "out and away" with the arms and hopefully you stay more square.

[Angel HI]

Stand with the arms forming a circle held up and in front of you. Know that every single step that you take in the dance is either going to be dead center to that circle, or on the circle (after having rotated the body which rotates the arms which directs where the steps should be taken). After racticing moving w/i this circle, hold the partner by the outsides of the shoulders (as if she were interupting the circle). Dance her without losing the circle or your expertise of stepping dead center/on the circle. Finally, return to the normal embrace.

Cheesy-easy exercise. Should help. Bonne chance.

[hbboogie1]

So I've had my first couple lessons and I love it! I have one major problem though. I keep shifting off to the left and moving my center away from my partner. I'm pretty sure you can guess why. :headwall: I'm sure my teacher is getting tired of correcting me, but short of buying her a cattle prod to zap me with whenever I do it, can you recommend any exercises to help? I guess practice will break the habit eventually, but I haven't found anyone to practice with yet, and I'm not ready to brave the local practica without a few more lessons.

Thanks!I think the problem you’re having of shifting off to the left could also be a problem of a poor embrace. If you’re holding your right arm high up on your follower’s back you won’t be able to control her body position. If you keep your right arm around her waist or slightly higher it’s very easy to keep from drifting to your left.
The body position is your responsibility just like in Quickstep you need to stay in front of your partner if you drift to the left you get ahead of her.
Here are two videos showing the embrace.

In the first video notice the position of all of the leaders. Right arm on the woman’s waist he has control plus the freedom of movement for the follower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FICo1MV58_8

Now look at the right arm of the leaders in video #2 this hold restricts movement of the followers and the leader has less control.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDRHBHVJcs8

Discuss this with your instructor.

[Gssh]

The exercise that helped me most to work on this was spending time exploring the possibilites of unorthodox/southpaw tango: Try dancing your tango to the other direction - e.g. if your standard opening for an ocho is side step to the left - collect+weightshift+pivot follower +another sidestep to the left try using sidestep to the right - collect+weightshift+pivot follower + another sidestep to the left. Lead mounlinettes to the right. Lead ocho cortados to the right. Dance the 8CB to the right. (it is quite difficult to actually lead the un-orthodox cross, but just walking in the cross system will give you a lot of ideas to play with. If a move requires a sliding embrace (e.g. backwards saccada) the equivalent that worked for me was to drop my left arm to hip height and drape her arm around my lower back, i.e i was reaching behind my back, sliding our arms around the side till our hands were resting somewhere close to my spine. This also requires extra work on the floorcraft because this means be dancing into the blind spot at the leaders right shoulder - I use curved walks to make sure that I have seen the space i going to move into)

Gssh

Note: this is only useful if you are dancing relatively parallel tango - if your style is more v-shaped a lot of your vocabulary will activly utilize the asymmetry of the embrace.

[hbboogie1]

The exercise that helped me most to work on this was spending time exploring the possibilites of unorthodox/southpaw tango: Try dancing your tango to the other direction - e.g. if your standard opening for an ocho is side step to the left - collect+weightshift+pivot follower +another sidestep to the left try using sidestep to the right - collect+weightshift+pivot follower + another sidestep to the left. Lead mounlinettes to the right. Lead ocho cortados to the right. Dance the 8CB to the right. (it is quite difficult to actually lead the un-orthodox cross, but just walking in the cross system will give you a lot of ideas to play with. If a move requires a sliding embrace (e.g. backwards saccada) the equivalent that worked for me was to drop my left arm to hip height and drape her arm around my lower back, i.e i was reaching behind my back, sliding our arms around the side till our hands were resting somewhere close to my spine. This also requires extra work on the floorcraft because this means be dancing into the blind spot at the leaders right shoulder - I use curved walks to make sure that I have seen the space i going to move into)

Gssh

Note: this is only useful if you are dancing relatively parallel tango - if your style is more v-shaped a lot of your vocabulary will activly utilize the asymmetry of the embrace.


I agree this could be very helpful to someone with experience but a beginner needs to first learn the basics and a major part of learning basics is the embrace. I discovered an interesting example of what I consider a proper position for the leaders right arm. Notice in this 1920’s video his right arm position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9fpCj5hY_U

Here’s a 1930’s video check out the main characters right arm but also look at the background dancers they all are using the right arm for control and lead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yv9V-3APpc&feature=related

The “new embrace" where the woman is draped over the man and the man has a firm claw grip on the woman’s upper back or shoulder IMO is not instrumental in providing a good lead and it prevents the woman from maintaining her balance. Tango is forever evolving but not necessarily for the better.

[Ampster]

The “new embrace" where the woman is draped over the man and the man has a firm claw grip on the woman’s upper back or shoulder IMO is not instrumental in providing a good lead and it prevents the woman from maintaining her balance. Tango is forever evolving but not necessarily for the better.

You're right. it does not. It simply is an embrace because the lead comes from the chest. The arms are simply there for the embrace, and was not meant for leading anyway.

As for balance, it's the job of each one to stay on their axis but provide enough resistance for the "Center" lead to work. Especially when dancing in milonguero.

The "new embrace" you call evolved in the late 80's and early 90's (so I've been told). Prior to that, men used their right arms low on the waist to stear women (in conjunction with the left) like pivoting boat tillers. I actually saw an instructional from one of the old guys teaching at Mansion Dandi in Bs As who did and taught exactly this.

Looking at the videos, these guys were kinda rough.

[dchester]

Looking at the videos, these guys were kinda rough.
Agreed. The first one in particular seemed to have a lot of arm (and hand) leading.

[bastet]

You're right. it does not. It simply is an embrace because the lead comes from the chest. The arms are simply there for the embrace, and was not meant for leading anyway.

As for balance, it's the job of each one to stay on their axis but provide enough resistance for the "Center" lead to work. Especially when dancing in milonguero.

The "new embrace" you call evolved in the late 80's and early 90's (so I've been told). Prior to that, men used their right arms low on the waist to stear women (in conjunction with the left) like pivoting boat tillers. I actually saw an instructional from one of the old guys teaching at Mansion Dandi in Bs As who did and taught exactly this.

Looking at the videos, these guys were kinda rough.

I am not a fan of the guys arm low on my waist either- it tends to constrict my hips too much for my liking...

[borisvian13]

... Notice in this 1920’s video his right arm position...



Unfortunately there are no 1920s tango films preserved. This video is from a 1951 movie called Derejo Viejo. True, there are elements of the early style in the dancing, but there are also fast giros which definitely didn't exist in the 1920s.

[hbboogie1]

I am not a fan of the guys arm low on my waist either- it tends to constrict my hips too much for my liking...

The picture attached to your name has a tango couple with the man’s arm in a proper position (not high on your back in the claw hold). Is that you in the picture? Is he constricting your hip movement? Are you saying you don’t like dancing with this person?

Tango unlike Latin has very little hip movement and the hand around the waist or a little higher depending on the height difference is used to control movement and guide the woman. If you think about the ( claw grip ) in the middle of your shoulder blades pulling you into the man it causes your body to be out of alignment and makes your butt stick out. Don’t believe me? At your next milonga sit out a tanda and watch the different holds and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

PS if that is you in the picture you have very good posture. ;)

[bastet]

The picture attached to your name has a tango couple with the man’s arm in a proper position (not high on your back in the claw hold). Is that you in the picture? Is he constricting your hip movement? Are you saying you don’t like dancing with this person?

Tango unlike Latin has very little hip movement and the hand around the waist or a little higher depending on the height difference is used to control movement and guide the woman. If you think about the ( claw grip ) in the middle of your shoulder blades pulling you into the man it causes your body to be out of alignment and makes your butt stick out. Don’t believe me? At your next milonga sit out a tanda and watch the different holds and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

PS if that is you in the picture you have very good posture. ;)

that is me in the photo.

the hold i do not like is the man's arm low on my waist a la Cachafaz. That constricts my ability to dissociate properly and locks my hips.

Man's arm across back right above or about my bra line (or thereabouts) is fine. That is most definitely not my waist though. :-D

I don't mind a higher arm either. It can work for the type of embrace I tend to use (shoulders rolled forward rather than away from partner) and works better with some guys than others (basically their arm across me up nearer the arm pit...sorry for the visuals on this...best I can do at 11pm. :rolleyes:

But I can see how if a lady uses the shoulders back posture more common to what I call Salon posture, rather than the type of embrace I learned, how she could be pulled over by a higher arm.

[Subliminal]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

I think it is a combination of trying to avoid the feet and being used to the ballroom position. I was thinking about my last lesson, replaying it in my mind, and realized most of the time it was happening when I was coming back to center from walking on the inside.

[Ampster]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

I think it is a combination of trying to avoid the feet and being used to the ballroom position. I was thinking about my last lesson, replaying it in my mind, and realized most of the time it was happening when I was coming back to center from walking on the inside.

Try not to equate BR with AT. They are two different things. Learn with an open mind, and learn from scratch. I say this because I came from that world. I wasted a whole year trying to transpose my b/r with AT. It was a waste of time. Had I the sense to learn from scratch I would have saved a year of effort.

[bastet]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

I think it is a combination of trying to avoid the feet and being used to the ballroom position. I was thinking about my last lesson, replaying it in my mind, and realized most of the time it was happening when I was coming back to center from walking on the inside.


sounds like you may have been hinging (SP?) a little at the shoulder joints rather than trying to keep the arms with the shoulders and let the torso turn to your parnter (dissociation or torsion). that's probably the part you want to pay attention to for a bit if that's the main place it happens.

[shutterbox]

The “new embrace" where the woman is draped over the man and the man has a firm claw grip on the woman’s upper back or shoulder IMO is not instrumental in providing a good lead and it prevents the woman from maintaining her balance. Tango is forever evolving but not necessarily for the better.

I'm not sure if this drape over leader embrace is new, but one way to see this is that the follower is seemingly pointing her heart m through his chest, towards the "draping palm" which feels to the leader like a very strong connection.

And this posture doesn't necessary mean the follower is resting her weight on the leader. She can be still holding her own weight.

And a firm claw grip that makes a follower uncomfortable is never a good embrace. Just a nice wrap around would be more welcoming, I guess ;)

[Peaches]

The “new embrace" where the woman is draped over the man and the man has a firm claw grip on the woman’s upper back or shoulder IMO is not instrumental in providing a good lead and it prevents the woman from maintaining her balance. Tango is forever evolving but not necessarily for the better.With all due respect, I'm not convinced.

A claw-like grip is always unpleasant, true. I'm not sure, though, what you mean by a grip on her upper back or shoulder. Like Bastet (I think), I dislike the man's right arm being around my waist--I find it gets in the way of my movement. Roughly bra-strap level is, IMO, ideal. I don't know if you'd consider that upper back; I do.

Also, I don't think it's necessarily the position of the man's hand that prevents the woman from maintaining her balance. The man not having proper technique--regardless of is hand position--prevents her from maintaining her balance. (And, likewise, her not having good technique prevents him from maintaining his balance. I'm not trying to rip on the guys.) Just as it's possible for her to drape without pulling, it's possible for him to have his hand high without knocking her balance.

*shrug*

[hbboogie1]

With all due respect, I'm not convinced.

A claw-like grip is always unpleasant, true. I'm not sure, though, what you mean by a grip on her upper back or shoulder. Like Bastet (I think), I dislike the man's right arm being around my waist--I find it gets in the way of my movement. Roughly bra-strap level is, IMO, ideal. I don't know if you'd consider that upper back; I do.

Also, I don't think it's necessarily the position of the man's hand that prevents the woman from maintaining her balance. The man not having proper technique--regardless of is hand position--prevents her from maintaining her balance. (And, likewise, her not having good technique prevents him from maintaining his balance. I'm not trying to rip on the guys.) Just as it's possible for her to drape without pulling, it's possible for him to have his hand high without knocking her balance.

*shrug*

A picture is worth a thousand words. This video speaks volumes about a proper embrace.

Please watch this video the second tango is very slow and sensual watch the embrace and his right hand the way it’s constantly moving across her back to guide her and also notice it’s not restricting her movements.
The man’s right hand is crucial in leading the woman throughout the dance.

Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSb8gxE9naM

[bastet]

I'm not sure if this drape over leader embrace is new, but one way to see this is that the follower is seemingly pointing her heart m through his chest, towards the "draping palm" which feels to the leader like a very strong connection.

And this posture doesn't necessary mean the follower is resting her weight on the leader. She can be still holding her own weight.

And a firm claw grip that makes a follower uncomfortable is never a good embrace. Just a nice wrap around would be more welcoming, I guess ;)

exactly.

firm claw- bad in any embrace...warm and welcoming...good! :together:

[bastet]

A picture is worth a thousand words. This video speaks volumes about a proper embrace.

Please watch this video the second tango is very slow and sensual watch the embrace and his right hand the way it’s constantly moving across her back to guide her and also notice it’s not restricting her movements.
The man’s right hand is crucial in leading the woman throughout the dance.

Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSb8gxE9naM

Thanks for posting the vid. From what I watched, that is not the type of embrace I use on a regular basis. I would consider a fair portion of what they did open. They had light between them, even if it was only a little. I guarantee you if he'd had his hand that low and was trying for close embrace (with full body contact), that hand would have been constricting to the follow.

I am fine with there being different ways to embrace- it's tango after all, and that embrace should certainly work in the type of dancing they are doing, but I think it would be less than ideal in other situations and for the type of dancing I do most often, that embrace wouldn't work very well.

[bastet]

With all due respect, I'm not convinced.

A claw-like grip is always unpleasant, true. I'm not sure, though, what you mean by a grip on her upper back or shoulder. Like Bastet (I think), I dislike the man's right arm being around my waist--I find it gets in the way of my movement. Roughly bra-strap level is, IMO, ideal. I don't know if you'd consider that upper back; I do.

Also, I don't think it's necessarily the position of the man's hand that prevents the woman from maintaining her balance. The man not having proper technique--regardless of is hand position--prevents her from maintaining her balance. (And, likewise, her not having good technique prevents him from maintaining his balance. I'm not trying to rip on the guys.) Just as it's possible for her to drape without pulling, it's possible for him to have his hand high without knocking her balance.

*shrug*

we could start a poll!

that's bra line level or slightly above- 2...waistline...0 from the follows so far... :banana:

[hbboogie1]

Thanks for posting the vid. From what I watched, that is not the type of embrace I use on a regular basis. I would consider a fair portion of what they did open. They had light between them, even if it was only a little. I guarantee you if he'd had his hand that low and was trying for close embrace (with full body contact), that hand would have been constricting to the follow.

I am fine with there being different ways to embrace- it's tango after all, and that embrace should certainly work in the type of dancing they are doing, but I think it would be less than ideal in other situations and for the type of dancing I do most often, that embrace wouldn't work very well.

You’re right we all have different styles so when we post a comment it’s based on our own style of dance.
I think that’s why it’s so hard to get ones point across.

[larrynla]

Lot's of good advice. A few extra comments.

Much depends not on a specific embrace but how well you do it. For instance, in apilado (mistakenly called milonguero) embrace the woman's left arm on the top back of your shoulder can drag down painfully or it can feel very light or somewhere in between. I myself like to feel a medium weight on my back.
______________________________________
A clawed hand on a woman's back? What a stupid idea. It should be flat or only gently curved. She is a human being, not a side of meat.
______________________________________
You will sometime hear people say your toes should be directly in front of hers. This is nonsense. Your right foot should normally be between her feet. This is the right-foot inside position. Don't think about avoiding her feet. The correct position will do that.

When you become more advanced you'll learn to dance in the right-foot outside position. This position is usually ended by the woman doing a cruzada, but there are several other ways to go from outside back to inside.

Incidentally you can also dance left-foot-inside and left-foot-outside position, but only after you've become comfortable dancing the more usual ways - and you know your partner can handle those positions.
______________________________________
Which brings us to a very important point. Every woman (and man) is different. (For that matter, she can be different at different parts of the night.)

It is your duty (and hers) to understand - to feel - how the two of you fit together and to make your embrace better.

A very perceptive woman once told me that a dance begins before you even touch. Be aware of how she stands up from her seat and approaches you as you approach her. Embrace at the edge of the floor but don't start dancing right away. Slowly move into the embrace, sensing how your bodies fit together.

Invite her by a gentle pull into a closer fit, but be content with a little distance if that is what she wants. Part of the courtship of dancing is to persuade your partner into more intimacy. Crushing her to you will only work if she's masochistic.

I like to begin with a zarandeo, literally shake but better translated as hug, by twisting our upper bodies slightly to the left then the right and back to the middle. If you do this to the music it is dancing, but without moving your feet. It also lets your bodies better adjust to each other.

Only after a few seconds of adjustment should you move into the flow. Actually moving will further test your embrace. Start with the simplest moves and only after that feels good should you try anything more advanced.

Even after finishing an entire piece of music you may not have completely explored your partner's abilities. Even with women I've known for years it sometimes takes a tanda for me to feel secure in being more adventurous. And the way she dances early in the evening may not tell the entire story. A couple of hours can change depression to elation, energetic to tired, or vice versa. So re-acquaint yourself to her if much time has passed.
______________________________________
Finally, a lot of discussions like this focus on just the physical side of dancing, on ideal bodies little more than manikins animated by electrical wiring and servomotors. Dancing is as much if not more about two people having an emotional and mental relationship. A dance, a tanda, is a courtship, or at least a developing friendship.

Also, all of this analytical and theoretical stuff should stay in the classroom and the practica. When you go to a milonga, forget it and let the music and your partner and the flow of the dance move you. Quit thinking and enjoy.

Laer Carroll - Shapechanger Tales web site
(http://ShapechangerTales.com)

[Steve Pastor]

there are also fast giros which definitely didn't exist in the 1920s.

You might want to take a look at Tango - Creation of a Cultural Icon by Jo Baim.
This is an excellant, very well researched, footnoted, annotated, etc, book. This one is as rich in authoritative, substantiated, information as Thompsons "Tango - Art History of Love". It has the added benefit the Jo Baim is a musician who understands and can explain music.
Baim lists 7 sources that describe the molinette through the 1920s, and earlier.
For example "El Molinette" UK 1911.

[Steve Pastor]

You will sometime hear people say your toes should be directly in front of hers. This is nonsense.
Gotta disagree with you here, Larry.
I'm happy with it being a style thing, but it is perfectly possible to be directly in front of your partner. This is why "knee knocking" is a problem until the man begins to move forward first with his body, rather than his foot, and/or the woman learns to begin her backward step from the hip rather than the knee.
Women who have unexpectledly, and without communicating it, changed weight onto the previously unweighted foot that I led them onto, have found out when dancing with me, that I am directly in front of them (or rather, at least one of my feet is going to step where her unweighted foot is).

[larrynla]

Knee to knee? And nose to nose until you turn your heads? Sounds awkward.

Either you're some distance away. Or leaning forward quite a bit - and so is she.

[shutterbox]

Well i dunno abt the knee or feet pointing thingy.

When we go into a nice embrace, our heads and feet will fall into the most natural position.

Knee knocking or toe stepping usually means the leader is not leading his intentions before doing what he intends to and/or the follower is 'dormant' in her participation in the lead&follow. Not sure if this is the right description.

[Angel HI]

Gotta disagree with you here, Larry.
I'm happy with it being a style thing, but it is perfectly possible to be directly in front of your partner.
Actually, I think that Larry's post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=707261&postcount=32 is a very good one. I do not know where this concept of dancing in a perfect parallel (toe to toe) came from. Fabian Salas says, "No one 'really' does it. It's a misconception."

[Ampster]

You will sometime hear people say your toes should be directly in front of hers. This is nonsense. Your right foot should normally be between her feet. This is the right-foot inside position.

With all due respect, I have to disagree with you. IMHE, You SHOULD have your toes directly in front of hers, and NOT between her feet. I find that stepping in between each other's feet doesn't look good nor elegant.

Using the proper posture and appropriate leading technique avoids knocking knees, and toe stepping without having to consciously avoid anything.

IMHE, This is done by the following:

Both lead and follow:

Stand up straight
Shoulders back
Chest out
Solar plexeus should be positioned anove the balls of the feet. You know its right when the wieght lifts away from your heels
In the embrace, you both should look like the letter "A," specially when you are dancing in close embrace


Leader

Lead with your core FIRST
Once movement is started, the follower now knows what you're doing, and she starts to move
Now is the time to move your feet
Your feet should now go too far forward from your chest


Follower

When you feel the leader, lead from the chest, start moving
When you step back, do not do it from the knee. Rather from the hip, keeping you leg straight


The result is that the leader's feet, facing dead-on occupies the space that the follower's foot had just left. No collisions.



I do not know where this concept of dancing in a perfect parallel (toe to toe) came from. Fabian Salas says, "No one 'really' does it. It's a misconception."

A natural occurence, as a consequence of good tango posture? Having seen Fabian dance many times. It's true he said this, however, he does dance dead-on himself. Quite well too. Even when he shift to dancing in cross-foot. His feet are still facing dead-on to his partner's foot.

[Angel HI]

Amp, I agree totally with your post as it applies to postures and movements. Re positioning, yes, we do not align ourselves in a side-to-center position like BR, but we should not strive to dance toe-to-toe either. One of AT's greatest assets is its naturalness. Our arms are at the sides of our bodies...not appearing from our pecs. To dance the lady in our arms, is to dance her towards the right side (again, not like BR or regular social dance, but ever so slightly...naturally toward the arm).

Everything else in your post will still apply unaffected.

[bastet]

With all due respect, I have to disagree with you. IMHE, You SHOULD have your toes directly in front of hers, and NOT between her feet. I find that stepping in between each other's feet doesn't look good nor elegant.

Using the proper posture and appropriate leading technique avoids knocking knees, and toe stepping without having to consciously avoid anything.

IMHE, This is done by the following:


Both lead and follow:

Stand up straight
Shoulders back
Chest out
Solar plexeus should be positioned anove the balls of the feet. You know its right when the wieght lifts away from your heels
In the embrace, you both should look like the letter "A," specially when you are dancing in close embrace


Leader

Lead with your core FIRST
Once movement is started, the follower now knows what you're doing, and she starts to move
Now is the time to move your feet
Your feet should now go too far forward from your chest


Follower

When you feel the leader, lead from the chest, start moving
When you step back, do not do it from the knee. Rather from the hip, keeping you leg straight

The result is that the leader's feet, facing dead-on occupies the space that the follower's foot had just left. No collisions.





A natural occurence, as a consequence of good tango posture? Having seen Fabian dance many times. It's true he said this, however, he does dance dead-on himself. Quite well too. Even when he shift to dancing in cross-foot. His feet are still facing dead-on to his partner's foot.

I don't particularly have any problem with dancing toe to toe either. I am quite used to it and anything else feels odd to me now.

We usually call the posture the "click you heels like Dorothy" position- weight's off the heels but they aren't off the groud so you can move them around and "click your heels like Dorothy" :)