From Latin/Swing to Argentine Tango - Help! [Archive]

LindyKeya

07-11-2009, 08:58 PM

I have been dancing ballroom/latin/swing for ages, and took my first ever Argentine Tango class this weekend. I did not research the instructor in advance, although Googling him after the fact leads me to believe he was not a total quack, although I'm not sure I agree with some technique things. I mentioned at the start of the class that I was brand new, but had loads of other partner dance experience. This seemed to hit quite a nerve for him, and he was kind of in an anti-ballroom frame of mind the rest of the class (he would periodically tell me, for instance, that I was leaning back, like in ballroom -- to which I replied, "No, in ballroom we do not lean back." (And trust me - I was not leaning back.)

I know I learn best (at least with kinesthetic stuff) by relating what I'm learning to what I already know, and figuring how it is similar and different, but this instructor was not at all helpful in that. I'd like to continue some classes, and am looking for an instructor who will work for me, but have some questions I'd like help pondering, particularly in regards to posture. My back is actually currently sore from him attempting to position my back to his liking (and not in a good, retraining muscles into something more appropriate way either). (There were other issues that raised my eyebrows too, but this was the biggest one.)

I saw this in the thread where another beginner asked about foot position, but thought this clarified the upper body posture in a way that seems to fit with what I've observed in videos (but not what this teacher seemed trying to convey):

With all due respect, I have to disagree with you. IMHE, You SHOULD have your toes directly in front of hers, and NOT between her feet. I find that stepping in between each other's feet doesn't look good nor elegant.

Using the proper posture and appropriate leading technique avoids knocking knees, and toe stepping without having to consciously avoid anything.

IMHE, This is done by the following:

Both lead and follow:

Stand up straight
Shoulders back
Chest out
Solar plexeus should be positioned above the balls of the feet. You know its right when the weight lifts away from your heels
In the embrace, you both should look like the letter "A," specially when you are dancing in close embrace

Leader

Lead with your core FIRST
Once movement is started, the follower now knows what you're doing, and she starts to move
Now is the time to move your feet
Your feet should now go too far forward from your chest

Follower

When you feel the leader, lead from the chest, start moving
When you step back, do not do it from the knee. Rather from the hip, keeping you leg straight

This to me sounds somewhat like a posture/position for Balboa, although with the weight further forward on the balls of the feet, right?

Can someone talk me through how you would change the lady's position/posture from say, Cha, to make it how it should be for Argentine Tango?

Ideally I'd like to find a local instructor with enough experience in both to make this sensible for me, but that's looking less and less likely. Instructors here seem to have a background in only one, but not both.

Ampster

07-11-2009, 11:29 PM

Here's something that may help... An old thread I started that talks about posture:
Argentine tango posture (http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=674679&postcount=1)

btw, welcome to our world :raisebro:

Angel HI

07-12-2009, 01:59 AM

Amps take on it is a good one. Rather than relating the posture to Bal, relate it t ogood posture...period. Correct posture is not straight up and over the heels; it is stright up and slightly forward over the arches of the feet. We have talked about this much in AT and even in BR threads (CPA...Corrective Posture Arc).

As for it's relationship to cha, there isn't any. However, as for its relationship to BR, you were correct to tune out the anti-BR siege. Knowing much about kinesiology, I understood (notice I didn't say, "learned" :) ), very quickly the positions and movements of the body in AT. When asked how was I learning this, I said, "Ballroom". I was met by the same criticism that you experienced, but understood that this was from persons whom did not know proper BR. Granted, the position/s is/are different, but in good BR, the posture is the same.

opendoor

07-12-2009, 05:02 AM

Hi LindyKeya, welcome here !

My point of view: With your experience in mind you will surely be able to learn the new conceptions very fast.

You may change the teacher, if you can affort it. But, somehow speaking frankly and clear text is better than to cosy around.

You are familiar with kinesthetics: In a sudden moment, in a new or somehow unusual movement (f.i. turnes), your cerebellum authomatically will still prefer the patterns that you have learned earlier. This occurs within a split of a second, and in the next moment your cerebrum will correct your body hold: so you really did not lean backwards. Some teachers can realizes the first intentional trace, but then he has to reinforce, not to blame you!

This very subtle behavior will hold on for up to three month. (I mean the behavior of your brain, may be the one of your teacher, too.)

I think the Balboa hint is helpful for the first time, but leave Cha Cha out.

opendoor

07-12-2009, 06:29 AM

.. with kinesthetic stuff...
.. about kinesiology..

These two concepts are very different:

- Kinesthesiology is an applied approach stemming form the brain science, as from the more technically orientated cybernetics, as well

whereas,

- Kinesiology is a late offshoot of the chiropractic (osteopathy, manual therapy), and integrates other than scientific knowledge as well,

Does it matter, anyhow? I think, everything that hurts helps. So, if someone of you has experience with another method that is specialized in dancing, as f.i Pilates, Gyrotonic, Feldenkrais, Id be interested in your opinion.

larrynla

07-12-2009, 09:39 AM

Rather than relating the posture to [any dance], relate it to good posture...period.

Exactly right. Argentine tango has a natural posture, not slouching but not rigidly erect either. The shoulders-back advice should be a reminder not to slouch, but the exaggerated backward lean of British ballroom (so-called International ballroom) is the antithesis of the Argentine tango.

Correct posture is not straight up and over the heels; it is straight up and slightly forward over the arches of the feet.

Imagine a rope running from the arches up through your center of gravity through the top of your head, pulling you more upright.

Once in the embrace trying leaning your entire straightened body very slightly forward to put just a few ounces of pressure on your partner, but no more than a few ounces. This will help firm up your connection without you (and your partner) tiring the other out.

Laer Carroll

hbboogie1

07-12-2009, 03:11 PM

[QUOTE=LindyKeya;709762]I have been dancing ballroom/latin/swing for ages, and took my first ever Argentine Tango class this weekend. I did not research the instructor in advance, although Googling him after the fact leads me to believe he was not a total quack, although I'm not sure I agree with some technique things. I mentioned at the start of the class that I was brand new, but had loads of other partner dance experience. This seemed to hit quite a nerve for him, and he was kind of in an anti-ballroom frame of mind the rest of the class (he would periodically tell me, for instance, that I was leaning back, like in ballroom -- to which I replied, "No, in ballroom we do not lean back." (And trust me - I was not leaning back.) I know I learn best (at least with kinesthetic stuff) by relating what I'm learning to what I already know, and figuring how it is similar and different, but this instructor was not at all helpful in that. I'd like to continue some classes, and am looking for an instructor who will work for me, but have some questions I'd like help pondering, particularly in regards to posture. My back is actually currently sore from him attempting to position my back to his liking (and not in a good, retraining muscles into something more appropriate way either). (There were other issues that raised my eyebrows too, but this was the biggest one.)
I saw this in the thread where another beginner asked about foot position, but thought this clarified the upper body posture in a way that seems to fit with what I've observed in videos (but not what this teacher seemed trying to convey):
This to me sounds somewhat like a posture/position for Balboa, although with the weight further forward on the balls of the feet, right?
Can someone talk me through how you would change the lady's position/posture from say, Cha, to make it how it should be for Argentine Tango?
Ideally I'd like to find a local instructor with enough experience in both to make this sensible for me, but that's looking less and less likely. Instructors here seem to have a background in only one, but not both.[/QUOTE

My vote is for the teacher.
Since this was your first AT class what makes you an instant expert on tango posture and technique? It sounds like your looking for an instructor that will patronize you. It takes many months if not years to totally break all the ballroom habits (leaning back). If you approach tango with a know-it-all attitude from the start it could be a difficult learning process for you.

jennyisdancing

07-12-2009, 03:29 PM

My vote is for the teacher.
Since this was your first AT class what makes you an instant expert on tango posture and technique? It sounds like your looking for an instructor that will patronize you. It takes many months if not years to totally break all the ballroom habits (leaning back). If you approach tango with a know-it-all attitude from the start it could be a difficult learning process for you.It sounds like the teacher possibly has had quite a few experiences/challenges with teaching AT to ballroom dancers. Not that the teacher should be taking out his frustrations on a new student, but just saying I can understand where they're coming from if they have a history of dealing with people who are resistant to learning what is needed in AT.

I've seen in it class myself - some of the people with ballroom experience have a lot of trouble letting go of the "ballroom frame". Or they, like the OP, figure they can use or adapt techniques from other dances they have learned. Just forget that, and approach AT as its own thing. It requires a fundamental technique that is just different from ballroom. I realize it can be a humbling experience if you've had years of training in another dance style.

That said, OP, if there isn't a good fit with your AT instructor, nothing wrong with finding another one. But you absolutely do not need a teacher who knows how to teach both ballroom and AT; it won't necessarily help you. My best tango instructor has been a woman who teaches only AT. The important thing is to find a teacher who can teach well, and clearly communicate what you need to learn.

Steve Pastor

07-12-2009, 03:37 PM

from The Fred Astaire Dance Book - 1962
"Raise your heels slightly off the floor, placing your weight evenly on the balls of your feet."
Nevertheless, it is not at all difficult to find examples of people being instructed to arc their backs away from their partners.
A while ago we had a "vintage waltze" dancer at our practica for a while. I got tired of trying to hold her up (ie her weight was AWAY from me) and she wouldn't take hints to change, or couldn't, or wasn't interested.

Still, even if you don't have your upper body away from your partner, having your weight on the balls of your feet FEELS like it is "away" to someone who expects you to have your weight TOWARD and into them.
Having your weight on the balls of your feet is where you start in AT. Then you move your weight even farther forward. This part however, is extremely variable depending on personal preference.

The rest of the posture thing is pretty standard, as has been noted, being "good posture": neutral pelvis, chest up and out, head in line with shoulders and hips and knees and balls of feet.

I wouldn't worry too much about about where your feet are. If you learn to step backwards by initiating the movement from your hip rather than knee, you shouldn't get your knees knocked or your feet stepped on (if your partner is initialting his steps correctly).

This instructor's approach to getting you to rethink and relearn your posture may be too direct, or a bit tactless to you.

Your choice as to whether or not you want to deal with it, or find someone else.

Zoopsia59

07-12-2009, 03:40 PM

I am troubled by your statement that it was your first class, but you disagreed with the teacher on technique (in a dance you have had no instruction in? Really?) I am also troubled by your statement that because you mentioned your ballroom background it seemed to negatively affect the teacher for the entirety of the class (even though he is a stranger and you have no knowledge of how he usually is?) It seems unlikely that a teacher would let a beginner get under his skin that badly, affecting his whole attitude, just because she said she took ballroom. Surely you can't be his first!

I am also wondering if your sore back is not just from his attempts to position you (if you are in reasonably good shape and do a lot of dancing, you shouldn't be sore just from someone placing your body) but stems just as much from your own tension and resistance to what he was doing

I understand that you would like an instructor to come from a viewpoint of contrasting Tango with what you already know. This makes sense.

However, your post reads to me that you were not keeping an open mind in this lesson. Depending on what style the teacher was instructing, Tango can have a rather pronounced forward lean compared to what you might know from ballroom. If one is attempting to teach apilado, even standing up straight would be too far "back".

Followers especially have difficulty in developing the forward pressure required because they are traveling backwards. I even figure-skated (which involves forward posture when skating backwards to stay over the correct part of the blade) and I still had a tendency to "fall back" away from my partner in backwards steps. Keeping your pressure forward and consistent while moving backwards is a difficult thing to learn. It seems most beginner tango followers have a problem with "falling" away from their partner or giving forward pressure that seems (to the leader) to come and go. She's there.. then she's not.. she's there.. then she's not. I probably haven't done nearly as much ballroom as you have, but I don't remember this EVER coming up in a ballroom class, or interfering with my ballroom dancing. But most every follower I've taught in tango had a problem with this in the beginning, whether or not they had taken Ballroom.

Again, depending on the style, you may have to train yourself to move your legs in a way that feels like they are "leaving your core trailing and forward". You get a signal to move, and you don't really move your whole body as a unit with your legs under you. There is an element of reaching prior to the torso moving. The extent of this varies with tango styles. But the one thing that is always true is that your body can't move BEFORE your legs in backwards steps, just as the leader's body can't move AFTER his legs in forward steps.

I wouldn't give up on this teacher after one class, nor would I take what he says about ballroom personally. He may be a snob about tango vs ballroom. Or perhaps he WAS trying to do exactly what you want by relating what you need to change to what you already know. Keep in mind that many of the best tango teachers in the world have never had a ballroom lesson in their life. Look at the students he has worked with for awhile... do you want to dance tango like them? If so, stick with him.

Zoopsia59

07-12-2009, 03:54 PM

Still, even if you don't have your upper body away from your partner, having your weight on the balls of your feet FEELS like it is "away" to someone who expects you to have your weight TOWARD and into them.
Having your weight on the balls of your feet is where you start in AT. Then you move your weight even farther forward.

Also, in Ballroom, the point of "connection" is lower into the pelvis, is it not? So even if a tango follower is not literally falling away, it will feel away to a leader who is expecting the contact to be higher, and that point of her body is further from him than the lower part that she IS putting forward. (forgive me... I only know of the exaggerated upper back arch style of ballroom)

LindyKeya

07-13-2009, 09:23 PM

I am troubled by your statement that it was your first class, but you disagreed with the teacher on technique (in a dance you have had no instruction in? Really?)
Well, any instructor who cannot explain a new technique in a way that is not physically painful to a student may be worth disagreeing with. Further, I disagreed with his insistence that a position that was unnaturally forward was "straight." No, forward, I'll give you. Straight, heck no.

I am also troubled by your statement that because you mentioned your ballroom background it seemed to negatively affect the teacher for the entirety of the class (even though he is a stranger and you have no knowledge of how he usually is?) It seems unlikely that a teacher would let a beginner get under his skin that badly, affecting his whole attitude, just because she said she took ballroom. Surely you can't be his first!
Fair enough. He could just be a total jerk. Thanks for thinking of that! (Also, he claimed to have prior ballroom experience - at least 20 years ago judging by his age, and "quit" when he was 16.)

I am also wondering if your sore back is not just from his attempts to position you (if you are in reasonably good shape and do a lot of dancing, you shouldn't be sore just from someone placing your body) but stems just as much from your own tension and resistance to what he was doing
You're right -- I've never in my life felt physical, prolonged pain from an instructor's correction of my body. What I'm trying to figure out here is if the problem was the manner in which the instructor got me to that position, or if the problem was the position itself. From what's been posted here, it sounds like probably both. (And you're right that any tensing I was doing could have also contributed.)

I understand that you would like an instructor to come from a viewpoint of contrasting Tango with what you already know. This makes sense.

However, your post reads to me that you were not keeping an open mind in this lesson. Depending on what style the teacher was instructing, Tango can have a rather pronounced forward lean compared to what you might know from ballroom. If one is attempting to teach apilado, even standing up straight would be too far "back".

Yes, and that would forward, not straight.

Here's the thing - he considers sometimes neutral (anatomically straight) to be "back." Now, I realize one may tell a student they are leaning back, to get them to lean forward, but he seems to have a general confusion of the situation. At two separate points, when my back was in the exact same position he first told me I was leaning "far back, like ballroom," and later that this same position was the "perfect position, with a nice straight back." (Also, Balboa can have quite a forward lean, although the positioning of the lower back is different - I really honestly know the difference between back, straight, and forward.)

Followers especially have difficulty in developing the forward pressure required because they are traveling backwards. I even figure-skated (which involves forward posture when skating backwards to stay over the correct part of the blade) and I still had a tendency to "fall back" away from my partner in backwards steps. Keeping your pressure forward and consistent while moving backwards is a difficult thing to learn. It seems most beginner tango followers have a problem with "falling" away from their partner or giving forward pressure that seems (to the leader) to come and go. She's there.. then she's not.. she's there.. then she's not. I probably haven't done nearly as much ballroom as you have, but I don't remember this EVER coming up in a ballroom class, or interfering with my ballroom dancing. But most every follower I've taught in tango had a problem with this in the beginning, whether or not they had taken Ballroom.

Again, depending on the style, you may have to train yourself to move your legs in a way that feels like they are "leaving your core trailing and forward". You get a signal to move, and you don't really move your whole body as a unit with your legs under you. There is an element of reaching prior to the torso moving. The extent of this varies with tango styles. But the one thing that is always true is that your body can't move BEFORE your legs in backwards steps, just as the leader's body can't move AFTER his legs in forward steps.

Interesting - that seems to be another strike against him, as his legs were definitely moving before his body.

"forward pressure" where? Where would a lead feel a follower giving him forward pressure - on his chest? And actually, I have quite a bit of figure skating experience under my belt too - and the forward pressure involved for skating backward, or doing something like a back spiral is not something that should be felt in any way by someone holding your hand - it's through the legs, feet, and maybe lower back).

Here's a real question for the collective wisdom of the fora: In ballroom/latin/swing/salsa, it is desirable (yea, necessary) that the follower take up the arm space she is given, giving some tension (but not too much) into the lead's hand on her back. Is this not the case for Argentine Tango as well?

I wouldn't give up on this teacher after one class, nor would I take what he says about ballroom personally. He may be a snob about tango vs ballroom. Or perhaps he WAS trying to do exactly what you want by relating what you need to change to what you already know. Keep in mind that many of the best tango teachers in the world have never had a ballroom lesson in their life. Look at the students he has worked with for awhile... do you want to dance tango like them? If so, stick with him.
Well, here's the thing - I WAS looking to change what I know. I have no problem with that.

I regularly teach several forms of swing, and often end up with girls with lots of prior ballet experience. Knowing that, I now know exactly how to coach them to fix the posture/spin issues they normally have - once I see them manifest those issues - I don't make preemptive negative stabs at ballet. I also don't have to rag on ballet to do it -- I can help them take what they already know, and mold it into what they're trying to learn. (And I am not an expert at ballet - just know enough to "treat" these issues.)

And do I want to dance tango like most of his students? Well, I guess not. It was a beginning drop in class, but many people had been attending this class religiously for months - and yet were seriously struggling. The woman who was "helping" teach the class was not someone who's dancing I want to emulate either, as she was completely incapable of doing more than the basic by herself, and the instructor actually corrected her incessantly during the lesson.

LindyKeya

07-13-2009, 09:29 PM

Also, in Ballroom, the point of "connection" is lower into the pelvis, is it not? So even if a tango follower is not literally falling away, it will feel away to a leader who is expecting the contact to be higher, and that point of her body is further from him than the lower part that she IS putting forward. (forgive me... I only know of the exaggerated upper back arch style of ballroom)

Well, depending on who you ask, can be from the thigh up through the lower ribs. But in Bal, it is quite high, with the lower body away, and that is something I can already do - so, how similar/different? That was closer to the body position I was starting from, which is certainly not back.

Gssh

07-13-2009, 10:43 PM

Here's a real question for the collective wisdom of the fora: In ballroom/latin/swing/salsa, it is desirable (yea, necessary) that the follower take up the arm space she is given, giving some tension (but not too much) into the lead's hand on her back. Is this not the case for Argentine Tango as well?

In my opinion, no, it is not - a follower that does that would feel like she is pulling away from me.

The basic logic of the lead in tango is that the follower feels the leaders intent through his chest, and moves (mostly) on her own power to wherever the chest goes.

In close embrace it is easy - the communication goes directly from chest to chest, and the arms are mostly decoration.
In open embrace it is a bit counterintuitive - the embrace ideally does not have any tension, but instead the arms are like the feelers of an insect - they are used to communicate/feel what the chest is doing. Of course, to feel something there needs to be an actual constant physical connection, but the energy should be always be towards each other - it should feel like "we are paying attention to each other".
What i as a leader like to feel in open embrace is her body and her left arm communicating with my hand and arm, preferably by her arm resting on mine and making contact through the whole length of the arm.
If i give a follower arm-space without using my chest to give her an impulse to disengage it is usally a sign that i feel her pulling me, and me trying to avoid being pulled.

I don't think this is something that is possible to diagnose over the internet. The right posture in tango is something weird - i don't even think that backward/straight/forward is a productive way to talk about it. I try to think in terms of if the couple has overall a neutral energy, or if either the leader or the follower is pushing or pulling. Nobody should feel pushed or pulled, everything should be balanced. Even if we share one axis it does not feel like we are pushing each other, but it feels like we comfortably rest on each other - like leaning on a doorframe when chatting - i am not trying to push against the doorframe, but i rest my weight on it, and i have to keep my balance and intention active, or i will fall down.

Lets for example talk about walking- when we stand still the energies are neutral - in open we are both on our axis, in close we both lean to the same extent on each other so that we are again overall neutral.

When i start to walk i "push" her, but she "yields" exactly the same amount, so that we both move, but there is no change in the overall energy - i don't push her through the movement, she doesn't pull me by moving more than i do, but instead we move connected and independent at the same time, using the communication through the chest/arms to keep moving in sync.

Gssh

Zoopsia59

07-13-2009, 10:46 PM

And do I want to dance tango like most of his students? Well, I guess not. It was a beginning drop in class, but many people had been attending this class religiously for months - and yet were seriously struggling. The woman who was "helping" teach the class was not someone who's dancing I want to emulate either, as she was completely incapable of doing more than the basic by herself, and the instructor actually corrected her incessantly during the lesson.

Then this really is all you need to know. If his "assistant" needs his constant correction, and was not just a member of the class he was simply using to demonstrate (but usually when an instructor needs to demonstrate with members of the class, they rotate who they use) that's not good. Or if she really was capable and he corrected her in front of the class, then he's a jerk because no one in the class would respect what she has to say if he acts like she's always wrong.

It sounds like NO ONE in this situation was having any FUN in the class. Not the struggling students, not the assistant, not the teacher, and certainly not YOU.

Find someone else.

If you don't want to dance like him, his partner, or his other students, then there's nothing worth going to him for.

Gssh

07-13-2009, 10:49 PM

Well, I guess not. It was a beginning drop in class, but many people had been attending this class religiously for months - and yet were seriously struggling. The woman who was "helping" teach the class was not someone who's dancing I want to emulate either, as she was completely incapable of doing more than the basic by herself, and the instructor actually corrected her incessantly during the lesson.

And this is a serious warning sign imho - i always look at the senior students to try to figure out if a teacher is good at teaching, and this doesn't sound very encouraging. (thought drop in beginner classes are in my opinion very, very difficult to teach well - i personally think that a structured beginner series or a few privates are much easier).

Gssh

Zoopsia59

07-13-2009, 11:05 PM

But in Bal, it is quite high, with the lower body away, and that is something I can already do - so, how similar/different? That was closer to the body position I was starting from, which is certainly not back.

I did very little partnering in Ballet (I'm assuming that's what you meant by Bal), so I can't really say how it compares to relative positioning to a tango partner. (I did go disco dancing with the ballet guys though!)

I took ballet, but started in college and actually struggled a lot with basic technique because I am naturally very turned in and tight in the hips. I looked good in movement across the floor (to the untrained eye) because I moved my upper body and arms so gracefully, and I had plenty of ballan (shoot... remember the pronunciation, but not the spelling.. nothing I type looks right) But at the barre, my shortcomings were extremely apparent.

My own personal experience is that ballet is more UP than tango and that skating made for a better cross-trainer. Ballet tends towards often having a straight supporting leg and possibly a bent free leg. Tango would be more the opposite... A soft knee in the supporting leg, and an extended line in the free leg. (again, more like skating) The free leg bends sometimes as a response to an obstacle (leg wraps) or torsion (boleos) or adornments, but in preparing to step, it extends.

I've also noticed that tango dancers who have had extensive ballet training prior to tango sometimes tend to dance more up on their toes and with straighter legs. My own PERSONAL taste is that this lacks a certain earthy, sensual quality that I like in tango. And of course, only someone with VERY strong feet can dance all night up on their tiptoes without putting their heels down (which is considered a no-no by almost - not every - tango instructor I've had)

The one habit I had to break from skating was looking behind me when traveling backwards. But as a ballroom dancer, you are already skilled at trusting the leader to keep you safe.

Zoopsia59

07-13-2009, 11:12 PM

What I'm trying to figure out here is if the problem was the manner in which the instructor got me to that position, or if the problem was the position itself. From what's been posted here, it sounds like probably both. (And you're right that any tensing I was doing could have also contributed.)

Unfortunately, I can't really tell from the written description... I'm one of those seriously visual people I was referring to.... ;)
I can only throw out ideas for you to consider based on your knowledge of movement.

Ampster

07-13-2009, 11:37 PM

Zoopsia59

07-13-2009, 11:39 PM

"forward pressure" where? Where would a lead feel a follower giving him forward pressure - on his chest? And actually, I have quite a bit of figure skating experience under my belt too - and the forward pressure involved for skating backward, or doing something like a back spiral is not something that should be felt in any way by someone holding your hand - it's through the legs, feet, and maybe lower back).

Here's a real question for the collective wisdom of the fora: In ballroom/latin/swing/salsa, it is desirable (yea, necessary) that the follower take up the arm space she is given, giving some tension (but not too much) into the lead's hand on her back. Is this not the case for Argentine Tango as well?

These 2 paragraphs touch on the same issue really. A skater's forward pressure would not be felt in a partner's hand, true. But the forward pressure for the tango follower is not really to the partner's hand either. You don't even need your hands to dance tango. My first instructor (now my partner) made me dance with him with our hands behind our backs. If there is no other contact (as in an open embrace style) then the leader should be feeling it consistently evenly enough that it still doesn't feel like it is to his hands coming from your arms, but rather the whole line across the body. (if that makes sense) You don't exert the pressure with your arms (pushing away from yourself) but with your body TO him. In close embrace it is totally on the body and not the hands at all.

Remember what I was saying in another post about how the connection point is higher than the "thigh-lower rib" thing in Ballroom? If you are trying to make the connection in the area that say, America Tango, connects, an Argentine tango leader will feel you are "falling back" because he will be expecting pressure higher up and the part of you that he is expecting to feel will be further away from him than the lower area. So even though you are exerting forward pressure, it will still seem to him that you are falling backwards. (It might also result in you taking a back step when something else is being led.. like a cross)

As for the concept of taking up the arm space given.. again... since you don't need the arms at all for most moves, you may find that the leader's arms are nowhere to be found! He might just take his right arm away and, oh I don't know... ask the forum Brits all the things to do with the free right hand... a drink? A smoke? Pocket? (we had a whole thread going down this train of thought one time)

OK... its a joke, but the bottom line is that you don't move or push backwards in the embrace looking for his arm to create tension on to it. (there's really no way to do that while exerting the proper forward pressure anyway.. you would have to push your body back by pushing forward with your hands to give ANY forward pressure at all) If he wants you to move away (ie: increase the distance) for a certain move, he either moves himself away while keeping you where you are, or he moves you keeping himself where he is. Either way, he LEADS it.

Your job as follower is to always maintain the same distance between your bodies unless the leader prevents you from doing so. This distance gets worked out by unspoken mutual consent at the very beginning of the dance.

Hope this helps,
Princess Many Words

Zoopsia59

07-13-2009, 11:42 PM

I try to think in terms of if the couple has overall a neutral energy, or if either the leader or the follower is pushing or pulling. Nobody should feel pushed or pulled, everything should be balanced. Even if we share one axis it does not feel like we are pushing each other, but it feels like we comfortably rest on each other - like leaning on a doorframe when chatting - i am not trying to push against the doorframe, but i rest my weight on it, and i have to keep my balance and intention active, or i will fall down.

Lets for example talk about walking- when we stand still the energies are neutral - in open we are both on our axis, in close we both lean to the same extent on each other so that we are again overall neutral.

When i start to walk i "push" her, but she "yields" exactly the same amount, so that we both move, but there is no change in the overall energy - i don't push her through the movement, she doesn't pull me by moving more than i do, but instead we move connected and independent at the same time, using the communication through the chest/arms to keep moving in sync.
Gssh

REALLY well said!
(darn... I can't find the bowing down smiley)

Ampster

07-13-2009, 11:50 PM

REALLY well said!
(darn... I can't find the bowing down smiley)

Allow me... :notworth::notworth::notworth:

Peaches

07-14-2009, 06:02 AM

bastet

07-14-2009, 08:39 AM

Lindakeya--I have so much to say in response to your posts, but no time in which to say it.

Bottom line: This is a completely separate dance, you know nothing about it going in, so stop trying to say that you're thinking things can't be right because of X, Y, or Z. This is totally separate. Don't compare it to ballroom. Don't compare it to latin. I know nothing about Balboa, but I'd suggest not comparing it to that, either.

You can be both straight (good posture, good spinal alignment) and forward (weight forward). In fact, you should be. It's not a contradiction in AT terms.

Even though BR isn't technically back (so far as I understand it), the way the movement happens and the way the posture is, will feel "back" or "away" FROM AN AT PERSPECTIVE!!! If you're even thinking about putting pressure back into his right hand--you're "leaning" back and away from him.

Legs should be moving before body. That's not a mark against your teacher (his teaching maybe, but I'm not commenting on that), it's how it should be done.

Clear your mind of how you think things should be. Accept the dance on its own terms.

I have to agree with Peaches on this.

You probably need to not associate what you know with ballroom with AT. It isn't going to help you. (I danced ballroom for years, and also did competition and had much to unlearn when I made the complete switch to AT.)

Even if you had straight posture or even slightly forward posture, if you were moving your center at the same time as your legs when he initated a step, then you most likely felt like you were "falling away" or were leaning backwards, especially if you are thinking your presence in to his hand on your back rather than forward in to his torso, because the walk works a little differently in AT.

IMO at least, it would be unwise to judge whether you thoguht his technique was correct for walking based on one lesson. In AT the lead initates a movement wiht his torso just before he takes a step. It's subtle, enough so that entire classes get spent on the concept, and if you havent' experienced it before, you may not know what you are feeling for. That moment of torso initiation is actually the point where the follow is supposed to be extending her leg (not moving her torso) so if you moved you entire body all at once, you'd definitely feel as if you are "falling backwards" to him and you are probably missing that part of his lead (since you've had only one lesson) and only saw his legs move, thereby thinking he is leg leading...but I wasn't there so I can't know the real case. I am just giving a breakdown of the ideal movement.

As for his unfortuante sounding interaction with his assistant, well...that doesn't bode well, IMO...for developing sensitive leaders and followers and so you have a couple of choices.

Try a few more lessons with him with this new information and see if it's better, or shop around or both. Either way, I think you will need to open your mind and try to clear it of preconceptions of how a dance works just because you've had plenty of other dancing. Just let AT be it's own thing.

opendoor

07-14-2009, 08:57 AM

Hi LindyKeya. .. just a little addition to my post: connected with the posture and the lean is the way of projecting steps in principle. This is very essential and must be learned together with the posture.

Hier are some examples of walking, caminare, caminadas

Gustavo and Giselle (watch how she projects every single step in comparison to her body adjustment) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewzjylUDTTg

Jennifers Embellishments (watch the steps in between) http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=BewitchingBlackLotus&view=videos

OD

Gssh

07-14-2009, 09:53 AM

I think there are two distinct issues here:

A) Technique
It is difficult to diagnose technique over the internet, but AT technique is somewhat peculiar in how it works, and while AT dancers always claim that it is the most natural thing in the world, and "just walking", i most of us (all?) had immense trouble understanding it - i took my beginners series 3 times in a row because i just didn't get it. Because of that my advice would be that even if the technique and logic of movement seems strange and unnatural it might still be ok, and give the class a chance.

B) Student-Teacher Match
To be honest, after thinking about it this worries me much more. I don't know you LindyKeya, and you might be overreacting, or be frustrated that your dance skills are not directly applicable to AT, or just have a personality mismatch with the teacher, but my advice to friends is usually "trust your gut". You have been dancing for a long time, and you know what the atmosphere in a good class should be like. You see the other students, and if they are happy, or are developing skills. Based on your descriptions of the class i would personally look for alternatives.

Gssh

bastet

07-14-2009, 09:57 AM

It sounds like the teacher possibly has had quite a few experiences/challenges with teaching AT to ballroom dancers. Not that the teacher should be taking out his frustrations on a new student, but just saying I can understand where they're coming from if they have a history of dealing with people who are resistant to learning what is needed in AT.

I've seen in it class myself - some of the people with ballroom experience have a lot of trouble letting go of the "ballroom frame". Or they, like the OP, figure they can use or adapt techniques from other dances they have learned. Just forget that, and approach AT as its own thing. It requires a fundamental technique that is just different from ballroom. I realize it can be a humbling experience if you've had years of training in another dance style.

That said, OP, if there isn't a good fit with your AT instructor, nothing wrong with finding another one. But you absolutely do not need a teacher who knows how to teach both ballroom and AT; it won't necessarily help you. My best tango instructor has been a woman who teaches only AT. The important thing is to find a teacher who can teach well, and clearly communicate what you need to learn.

I agree with you on much of this, but I can say from personal experience, that having a teacher who at least understands why ballroom is different and how it is can be helpful for someone who is trying to make a switch. They don't need to actually dance or teach both, I agree with you there, but it would have been a lot more helpful for me when I was first starting to have had someone who knew why I was making the mistakes I was and could have explained it rather than me spending large amounts of time figuring it out and beating my head against a wall.

Now if someone is just trying to learn a bit of AT and isn't all that concerned with what is technically different and just wants to go out and dance a bit socially, this may not be of as much interest to them, even if it would be helpful.

Dave Bailey

07-14-2009, 10:04 AM

Followers especially have difficulty in developing the forward pressure required because they are traveling backwards.
...
. Keeping your pressure forward and consistent while moving backwards is a difficult thing to learn. It seems most beginner tango followers have a problem with "falling" away from their partner or giving forward pressure that seems (to the leader) to come and go. She's there.. then she's not.. she's there.. then she's not.
Yes, I agree. I've encountered this too - it seems to be one of the most common problems for beginner followers, keeping a consistent and "solid" connection.

(By contrast, one of the most common problem for beginner leaders seems to be the tendency to move the feet first)

bastet

07-14-2009, 10:20 AM

Yes, I agree. I've encountered this too - it seems to be one of the most common problems for beginner followers, keeping a consistent and "solid" connection.

(By contrast, one of the most common problem for beginner leaders seems to be the tendency to move the feet first)

yes and yes...follows haven't really learned to 'connect" in an AT fashion (among other things) and the beginning leads usual biggest problem is learning to come forward enough to give "presence" to the follow and how to initate with the torso. Most move their legs and don't think about torso initiation, which of course, doesn't help the follows learn to connect and feel the lead for a leg extension....round and round....

dchester

07-14-2009, 10:33 AM

Zoopsia59

07-14-2009, 10:57 AM

Legs should be moving before body. That's not a mark against your teacher (his teaching maybe, but I'm not commenting on that), it's how it should be done.

She was responding to what I wrote that HE can't step forward with his feet prior to moving his body forward to initiate (and indicate) the lead. If he is doing that, then IMO it IS a mark against him.

Your statement is true for HER, moving backwards, not for him as the leader, which is what I believe she was referring to in response to my post.

Zoopsia59

07-14-2009, 11:00 AM

You can be both straight (good posture, good spinal alignment) and forward (weight forward). In fact, you should be. It's not a contradiction in AT terms.

Yes... like the \ key is both straight and forward. That's the problem with the word "straight" it can mean both "straight up and down" and "not bent"

Ampster

07-14-2009, 11:01 AM

Lindakeya--I have so much to say in response to your posts, but no time in which to say it.

Bottom line: This is a completely separate dance, you know nothing about it going in, so stop trying to say that you're thinking things can't be right because of X, Y, or Z. This is totally separate. Don't compare it to ballroom. Don't compare it to latin. I know nothing about Balboa, but I'd suggest not comparing it to that, either.

<snippet>

Clear your mind of how you think things should be. Accept the dance on its own terms.

I have to agree with Peaches on this...

<snippet> ... You probably need to not associate what you know with ballroom with AT. It isn't going to help you. (I danced ballroom for years, and also did competition and had much to unlearn when I made the complete switch to AT.)

I am in this boat with Peaches and bastet.

I too was once a ballroom dancer. In hindsight (when I was learning AT), I had similar concerns such as yourself. I literally wasted a year trying to transpose my competitive BR experience with my AT by trying to equate lessons and techniques from one to the other. I sincerely thought that my previous BR experience would breeze me through. It did not. Looking back, it was counter-productive.

AT is diametrically opposed to BR in posture, lead, rhythm, music, etc., etc., It is a different dance all together, and should be approached with an open mind as a beginner. Had I done this when I first started AT, I would have saved a year's worth of aggravation.

My turning point was seeing myself dancing AT on video tape. In my mind, I looked good. BR training with AT steps, and figures... It looked goofy and laughable. It was neither elegant nor pleasant to watch. Big square ballroom frame, good top line, heel leads, steps that were distinctly AT... didn't work. I have friends who are former national latin/rhythm champions. I dance AT with them, and they don't feel right. Neither do they look right on video.

We looked like those silly people in Dancing with the stars doing Argentine Tango... Bad, bad, bad.

I literally had to clear my mind, and unlearn BR to improve my AT and get it right. But then again, I'm one of those people who can only learn and do one thing at a time.

opendoor

07-14-2009, 11:04 AM

@ "Legs should be moving before body.."

Sorry for doubling. That is what I meant with the term "projecting steps".

OD

Zoopsia59

07-14-2009, 11:09 AM

yes and yes...follows haven't really learned to 'connect" in an AT fashion (among other things) and the beginning leads usual biggest problem is learning to come forward enough to give "presence" to the follow and how to initate with the torso. Most move their legs and don't think about torso initiation, which of course, doesn't help the follows learn to connect and feel the lead for a leg extension....round and round....

Yes, and since she's likely to get stepped on this way, she reacts by scooting out of the way in an abrupt fashion worsening the "she's there, then she's not" thing.

And the leaders, in fear of stepping on her continue to move their legs first but attempt to avoid her by waddling in a wide stance stepping outside her feet rather than directly into her. Then all she feels is a side to side movement, doesn't know where to go, and gets stepped on anyway.

Really, its amazing that anyone ever comes back for more given how awkward the first lessons are! (especially for a dance that's supposed to be "natural" and "just walking" ;))

Zoopsia59

07-14-2009, 11:18 AM

In leading you to step backwards (with him stepping forwards), in my opinion:
1) The leader indicates his intention by leaning/moving forward slightly. (depending on the teacher, the lead comes from the chest, frame, core, or body). The movement should not be initiated by the arms or hands.
2) The follower responds by moving her free foot back, but without doing a weight change yet.
3) The leader moves into the space that was created by the follower. (But some people say the leader's foot moves first, while others say the body goes first. IMO, this is a style preference.)
4) When the leader's body moves to complete the step, he brings her (or the follower's body moves) with him.
5) The weight change for both of them happens together on the beat, which completes the step.
.

If I'm understanding what you are trying to say, the stylistic difference comes in part 3, but only if part 1 was done correctly.

#3 doesn't REPLACE 1 and 2.

In other words, in #3, the leader moves either his body or foot into the space created for him by the correct execution of 1&2. If he hasn't done 1&2, there is no space.

Just wanted to make that clear for the OP, in case she interpreted your post to mean that INITIATING the lead can come from the body or the foot depending on style.:friend:

dchester

07-14-2009, 11:23 AM

bastet

07-14-2009, 11:31 AM

If I'm understanding what you are trying to say, the stylistic difference comes in part 3, but only if part 1 was done correctly.

#3 doesn't REPLACE 1 and 2.

In other words, in #3, the leader moves either his body or foot into the space created for him by the correct execution of 1&2. If he hasn't done 1&2, there is no space.

Just wanted to make that clear for the OP, in case she interpreted your post to mean that INITIATING the lead can come from the body or the foot depending on style.:friend:

exactly- if the toso initiation didn't happen and he just "moved" then that's bad...but that torso initiation is very subtle, and takes practice to both lead and follow, and I'd say a person who got that on day one no matter how much dancing they have done or taught must be pretty amazing, because it's subtle and easy to miss without training first...which I think is why people get so much in a frazzle about leg versus body...the movement itself is felt, generally not seen, so people just watching probably aren't going to be able to tell how or if it was done because it looks like the leads leg moved on it's own before the body though it didn't if they did it right.

opendoor

07-14-2009, 11:40 AM

.. amazing that anyone ever comes back for more given how awkward the first lessons are ...

I still remember my first traumatic lesson: The students should walk in beginners frame (leaders hands at the woman´s upper arms). The teacher couple rotated in. Finally it was my turn and I took her at her arms and did my steps. After 2 or 3 steps she insulted me: dont clutch me that tight, I get bruises at my arms! I chuck up the class, and never took one again. I migrated for two years through the milongas of my town and learned by doing. And, thanks to all milongueras: You are really pretty good teachers, and you know what counts!

So, my credo as a to-be teacher is to get into the position of the student.

LindyKeya

07-14-2009, 08:51 PM

First off, the "just forget everything you know about ballroom" comments aren't terribly helpful. Comparisons for things that are very different can be quite helpful for someone learning anything new - but only when you can say "it's totally different in x, y, and z ways." While for people with prior dance experience making comparisons to other forms of dance can be useful, the same is true for people without dance experience - i.e., "it's like just walking down the street, except. . . " Explaining how something should be (itself), or how (specifically) it is different from something else is useful.

My original complaint wasn't "That's not how it's done in ballroom," but rather "That's not what I've witnessed (in my admittedly limited experience seeing) Argentine Tango." Moving on.

You can be both straight (good posture, good spinal alignment) and forward (weight forward). In fact, you should be. It's not a contradiction in AT terms.

Even though BR isn't technically back (so far as I understand it), the way the movement happens and the way the posture is, will feel "back" or "away" FROM AN AT PERSPECTIVE!!! If you're even thinking about putting pressure back into his right hand--you're "leaning" back and away from him.

Okay, now that we're all refining terminology, the position he physically put me in (that is still bothering my back) was not straight and forward as Peaches mentions above - it was forward and forward. Imagine taking a standard (straight) posture, and reversing completely - so instead of shoulders down and back, they are up and forward. Instead of the lower back curving forward and then back, curving back then forward, with even the ribcage pulling back (not just closed, back). (And this was not just how it felt, I saw it in the mirror.) See posture-exercises.blogspot.com/2008/07/bad-posture-number-3-of-4-flat-back.html for an image (except with the weight more over the balls of the feet).

LindyKeya

07-14-2009, 09:00 PM

There's a lot of very good advice here. In particular, I like most of what Zoopsia and Gssh posted. I also think they are correct about possibly this instructor isn't the right one for you. The only thing I might add is that there are different styles of walking and different embraces, so remember there isn't just "one" correct answer (i.e. I'm not in agreement that the foot can not move before the body, in certain situations).

In leading you to step backwards (with him stepping forwards), in my opinion:
1) The leader indicates his intention by leaning/moving forward slightly. (depending on the teacher, the lead comes from the chest, frame, core, or body). The movement should not be initiated by the arms or hands.
2) The follower responds by moving her free foot back, but without doing a weight change yet.
3) The leader moves into the space that was created by the follower. (But some people say the leader's foot moves first, while others say the body goes first. IMO, this is a style preference.)
4) When the leader's body moves to complete the step, he brings her (or the follower's body moves) with him.
5) The weight change for both of them happens together on the beat, which completes the step.

Just my two cents.

Very helpful, thank you. A follow-up question -
Is it correct to say that somewhere around the beginning of #3 above, there will be more forward pressure between lead and follow, as the follow (if I'm reading you right) has not yet shifted her torso back - only her leg? So the forward pressure would briefly intensify, and then go back to the starting pressure, as the follower actually begins stepping backward? (And yes, I realize this all happens rather quickly in real time.) You're saying the lead initiates the step with his core, then moves his leg, while the follow begins her's with her leg, and follows with the core?

Also, how does the follower know how far back to step? My assumption (based on prior experience, but also what people have written here) was that she knows how far to step back because the lead leads her to set her weight down, thus halting her backward progression (for that step). Is this incorrect?

Ampster

07-14-2009, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by dchester
There's a lot of very good advice here. In particular, I like most of what Zoopsia and Gssh posted. I also think they are correct about possibly this instructor isn't the right one for you. The only thing I might add is that there are different styles of walking and different embraces, so remember there isn't just "one" correct answer (i.e. I'm not in agreement that the foot can not move before the body, in certain situations).

In leading you to step backwards (with him stepping forwards), in my opinion:
1) The leader indicates his intention by leaning/moving forward slightly. (depending on the teacher, the lead comes from the chest, frame, core, or body). The movement should not be initiated by the arms or hands.
2) The follower responds by moving her free foot back, but without doing a weight change yet.
3) The leader moves into the space that was created by the follower. (But some people say the leader's foot moves first, while others say the body goes first. IMO, this is a style preference.)
4) When the leader's body moves to complete the step, he brings her (or the follower's body moves) with him.
5) The weight change for both of them happens together on the beat, which completes the step.

Just my two cents.

Very helpful, thank you. A follow-up question -
Is it correct to say that somewhere around the beginning of #3 above, there will be more forward pressure between lead and follow, as the follow (if I'm reading you right) has not yet shifted her torso back - only her leg? So the forward pressure would briefly intensify, and then go back to the starting pressure, as the follower actually begins stepping backward? (And yes, I realize this all happens rather quickly in real time.) You're saying the lead initiates the step with his core, then moves his leg, while the follow begins her's with her leg, and follows with the core?

Also, how does the follower know how far back to step? My assumption (based on prior experience, but also what people have written here) was that she knows how far to step back because the lead leads her to set her weight down, thus halting her backward progression (for that step). Is this incorrect?

The pressure does not relent. It's the job of both the lead and follow to maintain constant pressure all through out the tanda (set of three/four songs in a set).

The follower knows how far to step back based on how far the lead goes. As the follower, you will feel him move, and you match movements. You'll feel him land his weight. When you do, you'll feel him start to land you, which is the extent of your current movement.

To illustrate, watch Jennifer Bratt respond to Ney Mello's leading. This is an improvised number:

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bastet

07-14-2009, 10:20 PM

Very helpful, thank you. A follow-up question -
Is it correct to say that somewhere around the beginning of #3 above, there will be more forward pressure between lead and follow, as the follow (if I'm reading you right) has not yet shifted her torso back - only her leg? So the forward pressure would briefly intensify, and then go back to the starting pressure, as the follower actually begins stepping backward? (And yes, I realize this all happens rather quickly in real time.) You're saying the lead initiates the step with his core, then moves his leg, while the follow begins her's with her leg, and follows with the core?

Also, how does the follower know how far back to step? My assumption (based on prior experience, but also what people have written here) was that she knows how far to step back because the lead leads her to set her weight down, thus halting her backward progression (for that step). Is this incorrect?

there will be an increase in pressure as walking commences. (hopefully you noted Zoopsia's response that if 1 and 2 don't happen- step number 3 is not correct on it's own).

The pressure does not go away as this would constitute stepping away from your leader before a step is comeplete. This just brings you back to the complaint from the leader that you would be "falling away" from him.

The pressure concludes when the couple stops walking and returns to neutral amount of energy exerted, for lack of a better word. It begins again when they walk again. Recall that the follow is responsible for maintaining the distance, as someone pointed out, and in close embrace, the distance is zero. She would be responsible for helping maintain that forward feeling as long as he was stepping.

The follow goes as far as his torso goes (unless he is faking the follow out intentionally to take a different size step than he is).

Zoopsia59

07-14-2009, 11:10 PM

there will be more forward pressure between lead and follow, as the follow (if I'm reading you right) has not yet shifted her torso back - only her leg? So the forward pressure would briefly intensify, and then go back to the starting pressure,

Also, how does the follower know how far back to step?

Two good questions..

I'd say the answer to #1 is that there is a VERY SLIGHT and very BRIEF increase in the pressure when he starts forward movement to which, in my opinion, you can and should respond to in kind, but no more, in your torso. You aren't a wall he is pressing against when he makes this first very slight movement initiative. You are, in essence, a part of him.

Of course, if he never takes the step, then its not all so brief and you may find yourself accidentally moving your torso too much, but that doesn't happen often (it might happen if, for instance, he suddenly can't go where he intended because the couple in front of you has moved against line of dance into the space he was going to move you to.) While you are in the early stages, and still dancing with beginners, expect some jerky leads rather than the smooth transitions we are talking about. Leading tango is really hard.

How far back to step... that is the eternal question and you will most likely get more than one answer over the course of your dancing. I think its one of the things that makes tango a little harder than ballroom, because you have to start to extend for your backstep before having much clue how big of a step you might end up taking. (for some reason side steps don't cause people quite as much trouble)

MY answer is that the leader can see back there and you can't. Therefore, all you can do is assume you will eventually have the ability to fully extend your free leg and be prepared to do so, and he should assume you are going to do that. Anything else is a partial extension and exactly how partial is too hard to guess. After all, you can't exactly feel your way back, cautiously and slowly exploring with your foot for obstacles, nor can you have ESP about how far back to reach based on a step not yet fully led. Nor can you keep your free leg dangling somewhat behind you in an arbitrary fashion obviously holding it out of the way, but not doing anything with it.

Of course, depending on the music and his style (and his experience), you may have plenty of time to make a slow reach and find it very intuitive with his movement. With a beginner leader, his transitions will be more abrupt and you have to reach a little earlier to avoid getting stomped.

But since you haven't put any weight on it yet, you may end up shortening up your step when he actually moves you to it. (one of the many important reasons not to put weight on your free leg before you're supposed to.)

Your next question might be... "what does he do if there's not room for you to fully extend?". Well, if you think about the geometry, the lower you are in your standing knee, the further you can reach. So if he is doing any sort of holding you up or lifting, it might be a sign that you can't step very far. (conversely, downward pressure to get you deeper into your knee might mean he's going to be expecting to take a big step.)

Now maybe that just seems a little too "secret handshake". But keep in mind one important thing about stepping back that I STILL have to remind myself of (damn ballet training!)

You aren't reaching with a pointed toe with lots of stretch through the top of your foot.

If you do that, you will have to pull away from your partner to put your heel down as the step completes. I've had teachers who said you shouldn't be putting your heel down until your body is OVER the foot to pass to the next step because the leader feels the "clunk down". And I've also had teachers who said your heel shouldn't really ever be UP in the first place.. the sole of your foot should be towards the floor, not the wall behind you. (Isn't there some culture where showing the soles of your feet is very rude? Hindu, maybe?)

Sigh... one of many things on the list of things teachers don't agree on and can't explain consistently.

MY view is that your reach should allow you to get your heel down to, or reasonably close to the floor when you first do your reach without having to pull away from your partner at all. This is NOT intuitive to me, because i find myself wanting to reach back with a pointed toe and turned out leg. (lets not get into how turn-out will mess with your walking right now!) If you reach with a pointed foot and the leader doesn't take a big enough step for you to get all the way back with your heel down, you will either pull away from him to do so or end up leaning more on him because you didn't get back over your axis. Either way... not good.

So the length of your reach will depend on some variables like how flexible your achilles is and how high your shoe heels are. Its one of the reasons the really high heels are in some ways EASIER to dance in than a flat... you can get your heel down in backwards walking because of the angle. On the other hand, the higher heel will also decrease your reach because of the way it affects your FRONT foot. :rolleyes: In my experience of watching and talking to leaders, more followers err on the side of taking steps too SMALL than reaching too far. Unless you are deep in plie' or have gumby achilles, then with proper technique as regarding being able to keep the heels downward, your reach probably isn't going to be too big.

And if the leader wants to take a step bigger than your reach, you have to be prepared to let your foot skim backwards a little as you move to it. More reasons not to have weight on it too soon!

Which brings up another point.. you're really just reaching because he's PROBABLY going to take you backwards if he's giving you increased forward pressure. In reality, he might not take you backwards...anything can happen. Anticipation is the follower's worst enemy! So when I say "reach" and "extend", you are doing it with a relaxed (but energized) free leg that in truth is prepared to go ANYWHERE even AFTER you started reaching back.

All this takes time to learn and get the feel of the movement and timing. You may find your other training helps with all these fine points and you may find as I did, that certain things (like reaching with a dramtically pointed foot) create problems. When everyone dancing tango danced in close embrace and in crowded Buenos Aires milongas, the finer points of reaching may not have come up. There was nowhere to go. Nobody took big steps. The dancing was all small and compact and you couldn't see anyone's feet anyway, so doing fancy things with them was irrelevant. All that mattered was connection and musicality.

Your mileage may vary....

Dave Bailey

07-15-2009, 03:50 AM

Is it correct to say that somewhere around the beginning of #3 above, there will be more forward pressure between lead and follow,
As I understand it (and I could be wrong), the pressure shouldn't really vary a lot, because variation disrupts connection.

You're saying the lead initiates the step with his core, then moves his leg, while the follow begins her's with her leg, and follows with the core?
Sort of. I think the sequence is something like:
1. Lead initiates the (follower's) leg to move with his core
2. Follower moves leg but does not transfer weight
3. Lead starts to move (leg and / or body)
4. Leader and follower transfers weight at the same time (ideally!)

Also, how does the follower know how far back to step?
Depends on the lead - the strength of the lead determines the length of the step.

My assumption (based on prior experience, but also what people have written here) was that she knows how far to step back because the lead leads her to set her weight down, thus halting her backward progression (for that step). Is this incorrect?
Um. Not sure. I don't think that's right, but I could be misunderstanding it.

Dave Bailey

07-15-2009, 03:57 AM

First off, the "just forget everything you know about ballroom" comments aren't terribly helpful.
Yes, I think it's OTT to say that.

However, there's some truth in the sentiments, in that knowledge of other dance forms is a double-edged sword. And it can be hard work deciding what you can "port" and what you should forget.

bastet

07-15-2009, 07:58 AM

.

My original complaint wasn't "That's not how it's done in ballroom," but rather "That's not what I've witnessed (in my admittedly limited experience seeing) Argentine Tango." Moving on.

Okay, now that we're all refining terminology, the position he physically put me in (that is still bothering my back) was not straight and forward as Peaches mentions above - it was forward and forward. Imagine taking a standard (straight) posture, and reversing completely - so instead of shoulders down and back, they are up and forward. Instead of the lower back curving forward and then back, curving back then forward, with even the ribcage pulling back (not just closed, back). (And this was not just how it felt, I saw it in the mirror.) See posture-exercises.blogspot.com/2008/07/bad-posture-number-3-of-4-flat-back.html for an image (except with the weight more over the balls of the feet).

Fair enough- but if you don't mind my saying, I think it would be next to impossible to know after 1 lesson or maybe having seem some tango danced how to arrive at what you thought you were seeing.

There are many things especially in tango that can visually look like something and you think you understand how it is arrived at, but then you find out it was something different. (Like a barrida- it looks like follows foot is being dragged on the floor- but it is an illusion.)

I think that is to some degreee what is going on here regarding posture and what you think you have seen people do versus what they may actually be doing and may not even be able to articulate to you.

As a direct example...when I first was attempting to learn close embrace, my teacher at the time tried to teach it to me based on a visual reference. Unfortunately, the visual reference she was trying to have me copy caused me to engage muscles that ended up hurting my back and so I though to myself "screw that!". Later on, I worked on close embrace again and found out which muscles ACTUALLY needed to be engaged after more lessons with other teachers, but again it was not because they told me which muslces to use, just what they were feeling. The posture they all kept moving me to when I looked in the mirror gave me a similar look to the posture the original teacher tried to explain with a visual reference, but actually was arrived at through a different set of muscles entirely.

I would not have figured it out based solely on looking at someone else's posture, I needed to feel it from the inside of the embrace and it took quite a bit of work and definitely more than one lesson to understand what I was actually being asked to do.

dchester

07-15-2009, 10:39 AM

Very helpful, thank you. A follow-up question -
Is it correct to say that somewhere around the beginning of #3 above, there will be more forward pressure between lead and follow, as the follow (if I'm reading you right) has not yet shifted her torso back - only her leg? So the forward pressure would briefly intensify, and then go back to the starting pressure, as the follower actually begins stepping backward? (And yes, I realize this all happens rather quickly in real time.) You're saying the lead initiates the step with his core, then moves his leg, while the follow begins her's with her leg, and follows with the core? Yes, you are correct on this (at least according to me).

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Also, how does the follower know how far back to step? My assumption (based on prior experience, but also what people have written here) was that she knows how far to step back because the lead leads her to set her weight down, thus halting her backward progression (for that step). Is this incorrect? This may be a bit more difficult to explain with words. When the follower feels the intention (or lead), she responds by moving her foot back. Initially she extends back as much as is comfortable. Now when the leader starts moving his torso (and thus so does the follower), the follower will be capable of extending her foot back even more, if it is needed. The trick is that it depends on how much it seems to her that the leader wants her to step (based on how far he goes). They both step down (or change weight) on the beat. The timing of when he moves into the space (that you created with your free foot), is what lets you know what beat to change weight on.

A good exercise is for the leader to give you intention to move your free foot, and then pull back, which then should cause your foot to return. It's a good drill to see how by varying the amount (and direction (back and/or side movements)) of the intention, that it can influence what your foot does (move back and forth, or even draw circles), without ever doing a weight change. The trick is that everyone is a little different, so you sort of have to re-calibrate with every partner.

Steve Pastor

07-15-2009, 11:36 AM

LindyKeya:

Thanks for this link showing good and bad posture(s). I'll be bookmarking this one.

http://posture-exercises.blogspot.com/search/label/General%20Posture%20Information

Is there a page here that shows the posture your (once and former?) instructor had you assume?

Steve Pastor

07-15-2009, 11:38 AM

Not to go on a tangent or anything...
But what do you all think of this woman's posture?
http://www.todotango.com/english/postcards/postal.asp?id=10

Ampster

07-15-2009, 11:40 AM

Not to go on a tangent or anything...
But what do you all think of this woman's posture?
http://www.todotango.com/english/postcards/postal.asp?id=10

http://www.todotango.com/spanish/biblioteca/imagenes/postales/postal09.gif

The woman, Not good. The guy, Not good either, and his arms and hands are in the wrong spot. It looks like their in a middle of a lunge in the middle of a canyengue?

It's a bad stylized drawing. :roll:

bastet

07-15-2009, 11:45 AM

Not to go on a tangent or anything...
But what do you all think of this woman's posture?
http://www.todotango.com/english/postcards/postal.asp?id=10

In general- I don't bother too much with what I see in drawings expecially of dance people. They are most often caricatures, like this drawing.

Zoopsia59

07-15-2009, 11:51 AM

There are some nice walking passes in these routines. Notice how this woman's leg looks nicely extended even if she doesn't take a large step. Its not about how big the step is, but how purposeful and elongated you make it by the way you use the whole leg and hip. Notice also that despite having incredibly high arches, she does get her heel down and only appears to be up on her toes because she dances in very high heels. (I can't dance in shoes like that) This couple dances primarily BA social tango. These routines are "jazzed up" (despite not being flashy) for performance. He would never do some of these moves this way in a milonga, but notice how much they do circular patterns, which are very important dancing in crowded BA milongas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz61J3xgJ0M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7_dmSwkLRQ&feature=related

ant

07-15-2009, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by LindyKeya http://1.2.3.9/bmi/www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=710477#post710477)
First off, the "just forget everything you know about ballroom" comments aren't terribly helpful.

Originally posted by Dave Bailey
Yes, I think it's OTT to say that.

Hi DB
Sorry, I don't agree with you at least at the macro level (and cetainly when beginning at AT) although at the micro level, as you progress, some individual techniques learned in ballroom may help.

This is my thinking.

I assume we are agreed that the Latin side has very little in common with AT, except maybe the upper body isolation exercises that some people practise in Salsa.

Looking at ballroom I feel that the main techiques are as follows:

1 Rise and fall
2 Surges in momentum/driving from the foot of the leading leg
3 Sweeping head movements from the follower
4 Connection from the lower body
5 Leaders giving an intention from the whole body and by lifting the frame of the follower
6 Learning patterns to add to the basic step pattern
7 Heel leads

Whereas in AT we aim for the reverse in 1, 2 and 3, a body connection through the chest in 4 and intention through the chest and minimal body lift and only in specific circumstances in 5 and hopefully unrehearsed lead and follow with no use of patterns other that the basic in 6 and heel leads are rare in 7.

Having said that on the micro level some techniques learned in BR may help with AT.

- A loose leg from the hip
- Movement of the leg from the hip
- understanding pressure from the lead coming through the body
- balance
- generally moving with a partner in close proximity
- allowing pressure from the lead to reflect in the leg rather than frame collapse

are some things that come to mind.

Steve Pastor

07-15-2009, 01:17 PM

It looks like their in a middle of a lunge in the middle of a canyengue?

One question I thought of asking LindyKeya was, was that posture that was foisted on you canyenge like. But, given that she is just getting into this I tryied to find something to demonstrate what canyenge like is, I came across this.

Note the caption in French. I think this is one form of early tango in France.
Here is a link to the rest of this small collection.
http://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/imagenes/postales/postales.asp
It's supposed to be the kind that had been "cleaned up" to make it more acceptable to the upper and middle classes. Still, there is that canyenge look. BTW leaning back, or leaning forward for a corte was quite common then.
Not a good example of what we teach people now a days as "Argentine Tango".

Dave Bailey

07-15-2009, 02:09 PM

Sorry, I don't agree with you at least at the macro level (and cetainly when beginning at AT) although at the micro level, as you progress, some individual techniques learned in ballroom may help.
I think it depends on how much BR you've done, and to what level, and to what ends. If you've just learnt a series of dance-specific conventions, patterns, and movements designed primarily for visual impact, then yes.

But I don't know enough BR to have an informed opinion...

mshedgehog

07-15-2009, 04:09 PM

I think Melina and Detlef explain the posture very well in this video, although I'm not sure if it will answer your specific question. It's in French, but I've posted a full translation here (http://mshedgehog.blogspot.com/2009/02/ent-tango-with-subtitles.html). Although given previous dance experience, you might still find it helpful without necessarily reading my translation (which Detlef was kind enough to review and correct).

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_z6fTYD1Xts&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_z6fTYD1Xts&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

bastet

07-15-2009, 06:02 PM

Steve Pastor

07-15-2009, 06:31 PM

Was going to address this earlier, seems more appropriate now.

Ms HedgeHog, nice work.

M: and a bit further up, the knees stay relaxed, we want to be able to move them, but we won't dance with bent knees, the legs should be straight, but relaxed. A bit further up again, the pelvis rests in a natural position, it's also relaxed. The pelvis is the heaviest part of the body and that should be relaxed and sinking towards the ground.

D: That is, you leave the pelvis in a natural position, you don't do things like this, you leave the pelvis parallel with the ground, and keep the whole of the lower body very relaxed.

But...
We learn to walk and stand, as I have read, by trial and error.
Look at how many people walk and stand "naturally" with really bad posture.
I'd been told many, many times in my life to stand up straight and suck in my stomach. Know what? Nobody, nobody, explained it in a way that allowed me to "get it".

"When we are new to the dance, we are tempted to straighten our knees and pull our pelvis back. This causes us to disconnect and/or hyperextend our lower back. A good embrace is one where the knees relax and the pelvis is dropped and connected to our partner."

This is all I could find in the class notes from instructor Steven Payne.
He must have had use do exercises where we rotated our pelvis back and forth, up and down. Don't remember if we watched this in the mirrors, or if I did that at home, but once the connection was made between the pelvis, my lower back, and my constantly protruding stomach and butt, I got it. (course my butt stills "protrudes", but it is what it is and it ain't going nowhere)

Understanding the anatomy of the pelvis, and how it works is very helpful in teaching "good posture", me thinks.

bafonso

07-16-2009, 12:07 AM

To the OP:

Find a teacher that can answer to all of your questions, whether he/she knows or not about other dances. he/she should be able to convey the principles in a way. But you need to drop the attitude. Maybe you should attend some milongas while sitting and see who you like to see dancing and ask them about who they learn with, etc. AT is about the journey, not about getting good and getting medals. nobody really has unforgettable dances with people with that attitude...

People mention a lot the forward lean but that is more true if you're dancing close. In open, you're not really leaning much most of time, watch some videos from the best in open and close and compare.

Angel HI

07-16-2009, 02:42 AM

mshedgehog

07-16-2009, 05:17 PM

But...
We learn to walk and stand, as I have read, by trial and error.
Look at how many people walk and stand "naturally" with really bad posture.... Understanding the anatomy of the pelvis, and how it works is very helpful in teaching "good posture", me thinks.

That is very true. I always appreciate it a lot when I find that a teacher has seriously studied anatomy. And I agree that 'natural' is often not a very helpful description - for example what exactly is "a totally natural posture" in high heels? The first time I heard that, I thought the notion was patently ridiculous, so I interpreted it as at least partly metaphorical. It's a problem. I think that the tango posture that works is not strained or forced or contrived, and as far as I can tell, that's what good teachers are always trying to convey with the word 'natural', as is the case in this video, but I don't think 'natural' is a specially helpful instruction for me, and maybe not for most people. I've often found that that's that point where I need to ask the teacher for specific feedback - is this ok, is this better or worse? - or do some other kind of exercise to get rid of whatever wierd thing I was doing.

mshedgehog

07-16-2009, 05:30 PM

I have been reading and saying nothing for 2 days now. brava! Mshedgehog, well done. Lindykeya, just study this clip from mshedgehog above. http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=710689&postcount=57

Don't praise me (well, do, because it's nice, but ...) - go and be nice in their YouTube comments :) If you encourage them they might do an English version eventually. It'd be a Good Thing.

dchester

07-16-2009, 10:15 PM

Well if any of you are going to be in the Boston area around Halloween time this fall, I hear that Detlef & Melina are supposed to be teaching at Tango de los Muertos. It is usually a fantastic tango festival.

LindyKeya

07-16-2009, 10:36 PM

One question I thought of asking LindyKeya was, was that posture that was foisted on you canyenge like. But, given that she is just getting into this I tryied to find something to demonstrate what canyenge like is, I came across this.

Note the caption in French. I think this is one form of early tango in France.
Here is a link to the rest of this small collection.
http://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/imagenes/postales/postales.asp
It's supposed to be the kind that had been "cleaned up" to make it more acceptable to the upper and middle classes. Still, there is that canyenge look. BTW leaning back, or leaning forward for a corte was quite common then.
Not a good example of what we teach people now a days as "Argentine Tango".

YES! That's it! (Except, of course, with the arms the right way -- is this what the position is supposed to be, or was the image reversed?)
Is this a posture that is still used in AT?

bastet

07-16-2009, 11:34 PM

YES! That's it! (Except, of course, with the arms the right way -- is this what the position is supposed to be, or was the image reversed?)
Is this a posture that is still used in AT?

hmm- I'm confused now because to me at least, the cartoon drawing and the posture photo you linked to don't look alike....unless you had meant to link to the lordotic (sp?) photo and got the slouching one instead....

LindyKeya

07-16-2009, 11:54 PM

I assume we are agreed that the Latin side has very little in common with AT, except maybe the upper body isolation exercises that some people practise in Salsa.

Looking at ballroom I feel that the main techiques are as follows:

1 Rise and fall
2 Surges in momentum/driving from the foot of the leading leg
3 Sweeping head movements from the follower
4 Connection from the lower body
5 Leaders giving an intention from the whole body and by lifting the frame of the follower
6 Learning patterns to add to the basic step pattern
7 Heel leads

Whereas in AT we aim for the reverse in 1, 2 and 3, a body connection through the chest in 4 and intention through the chest and minimal body lift and only in specific circumstances in 5 and hopefully unrehearsed lead and follow with no use of patterns other that the basic in 6 and heel leads are rare in 7.

Having said that on the micro level some techniques learned in BR may help with AT.

- A loose leg from the hip
- Movement of the leg from the hip
- understanding pressure from the lead coming through the body
- balance
- generally moving with a partner in close proximity
- allowing pressure from the lead to reflect in the leg rather than frame collapse

are some things that come to mind.

Ah, this is helpful. I'm not a big proponent of #6 above, although I realize that is the stereotype of ballroom dancers. Your micro level things are also things I consider pretty major for ballroom.

And MsHedgehog - wow, thanks! THat clip, and the the transcript, were very helpful. It was particularly useful to see/hear/read how what they call "countermovement" works in AT, which was really great, as it was an element I hadn't considered (or been taught), but obviously plays a big role. It was also interesting to see the similarities and differences with ballroom cbm/cbmp, and simultaneously see how those work with the other elements of AT.

LindyKeya

07-17-2009, 12:03 AM

bastet

07-17-2009, 07:41 AM

?? The "flat back" posture was the one I meant, which was not as pronouncedly hunched through the shoulders as the image Steve so wonderfully found, but was the closest I could find. The lordotic posture, on the other hand, has the chest pushed out, with the curve of the spine increased in the lower back, as opposed to decreased in the lower, and pulled somewhat forward in the flat back.

yes- that's why I asked...when you said "That's it"..well the caricature has a pretty arched looking back which isn't really like the photo you showed origianlly. In fact, the cartoon looks very early 1900's to me and isn't a good representaion of good posture...it's a cartoon...corset and bustle- stiff upright torso and large derriere...so it looks like she's arching her back to me rather than slouching in the cartoon. If you look at the cartoon carefully, she's actually got a straight up and down back and a large rear and pelvis tilted back...not a slouch. The big shoulders the "artist" made may be making her look like she's slouching, but slouching in that era would have been unheard of for ladies. Not to mention the cartoon makes them look like they'd be 10 feet tall. The human proportions are all wrong.

In the close embrace I learned, you are actually trying to flatten the upper back (as opposed to letting you shoulder blades scrunch together- no holding pencils with them in AT) by expanding your back so it could be your teacher, like my original teacher for close embrace, just didn't have the words to describe what you needed to do and you were engaging the wrong muscles to attempt to achieve it and so caused yourself pain, or you thought you had achieved what they wanted based on how it "looked" to you in the mirror.

In actuality, it may require engagment of a different set of muscles than you thought. As I stated before, *you can arrive at some similar looking postures but be engaging different sets of muscles* (quite possibly the worng ones). I can't say this often enough to people.

It took me 3 sets of master teachers to figure out what sets of muscles I was really trying to go for to get the kind of connection they wanted from me.

EDIT: My other half agrees with me and he deals with postural dysfunction as part of his profession....

bastet

07-17-2009, 08:41 AM

If you really want to look at ladies posture...which is what I thought was the original point of this thread.... perhaps looking at real ladies instead of cartoons would be better...

Three differnt followers who dance different styles....note how all of them have expanded upper backs, elbows that try to stay in front of their bodies instead letting their elbows get behind them too much

Geraldine Rojas...surely no one doubts her expertise...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnC03nKl_rE&feature=related

Mariana MOntes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImiSe7h374g&feature=related

and Melina since we used their posture video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9LyjO6ElOk

hbboogie1

07-17-2009, 10:03 AM

bastet

07-17-2009, 10:41 AM

Lindy
Here is another example of posture that you might enjoy. They dance open and close embrace so you get to see the posture doesn’t change you also see she isn’t wrapping her arm around his back she is in a position to gently move from closed to open with no effort it’s very subtle. Veronica dances with perfection. Notice her balance and axis and also beautiful footwork.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-kegfRZ3SI

well- I don't have a problem with her posture...but IMO it would be helpful not to confuse the original question about posture with stylisitc preferences and how the arms may be placed accordingly (though those do usually entail slight postural changes also). One arm position is not any better than another, just more useful for the effect you are going for, and if the ability to drift from open to closed is what you want, well, that arm position works fine if the lady also know how to connect properly.

dchester

07-17-2009, 11:22 AM

YES! That's it! (Except, of course, with the arms the right way -- is this what the position is supposed to be, or was the image reversed?)
Is this a posture that is still used in AT?We had a thread a while back about posture.

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=31800

Here is one that I like, but the thing about tango is that there are several "correct" answers.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_tvo5nss83jc/Sb2Am-mijzI/AAAAAAAAAGo/CCtAL_JmLwU/s200/Perfect+Tango+pose.jpg

Gssh

07-17-2009, 11:29 AM

YES! That's it! (Except, of course, with the arms the right way -- is this what the position is supposed to be, or was the image reversed?)
Is this a posture that is still used in AT?

Now this is interesting - does the rest of what is taught look similar to this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIesK3zBLX0

Gssh

hbboogie1

07-17-2009, 11:35 AM

well- I don't have a problem with her posture...but IMO it would be helpful not to confuse the original question about posture with stylisitc preferences and how the arms may be placed accordingly (though those do usually entail slight postural changes also). One arm position is not any better than another, just more useful for the effect you are going for, and if the ability to drift from open to closed is what you want, well, that arm position works fine if the lady also know how to connect properly.

Actually the woman’s arm position has everything to do with posture. When the woman’s arm is completely wrapped around the man’s back she is contorting her body and creating bad posture. Lately I’ve been seeing some new grips women have started using. One I call the pickpocket hold, her arm is wrapped so far over the man’s shoulder her hand almost reaches his back pants pocket.
The same holds true for the woman’s right arm. When the leader holds her right arm up over her head her balance, axis and movement are restricted.
Without balance, axis and unrestricted movement Tango can still be danced but at what skill level?

opendoor

07-17-2009, 11:38 AM

.. Here is one that I like, but the thing about tango is that there are several "correct" answers.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_tvo5nss83jc/Sb2Am-mijzI/AAAAAAAAAGo/CCtAL_JmLwU/s200/Perfect+Tango+pose.jpg

Now this is interesting - does the rest of what is taught look similar to this?

The problem with that fotograph is: Only a single spot in a complex movement is shown. Sabrina stands on one foot, the other is going to be hooked behind. Usually the couple dances in V-hold.

bastet

07-17-2009, 11:40 AM

Actually the woman’s arm position has everything to do with posture. When the woman’s arm is completely wrapped around the man’s back she is contorting her body and creating bad posture. Lately I’ve been seeing some new grips women have started using. One I call the pickpocket hold, her arm is wrapped so far over the man’s shoulder her hand almost reaches his back pants pocket.
The same holds true for the woman’s right arm. When the leader holds her right arm up over her head her balance, axis and movement are restricted.
Without balance, axis and unrestricted movement Tango can still be danced but at what skill level?

I don't know, but you commented that my posture was nice and I use my arm accross the shoulders. Nor do I contort my body. I have learned how to dance with that arm position.

I happen to hate the arm position in the video you posted. I think it teaches the ladies to dance backweighted if they aren't drilled in good grounding techniques and the only people I have seem do it really well are not your basic, garden variety social dancers, but pros. If you can get it, great, but it's not the only way.

I completely disagree that you can't have nice posture and have your arm across someone. You have to learn to relax the shoulder joints, but just because you may not like the arm there either because of looks or feel or have experience with that position doesn't make it bad. If a lady doesn't learn the techniques specific to dancing this way then, sure, it's easy for her to get try to reach and get contorted and tense, because she hasn't learned proper teachnique, but if she has, there isn't one thing wrong with it.

As Peaches said in one of the other posture threads, there isn't any dance where bad posture is encouraged.

Steve Pastor

07-17-2009, 12:06 PM

YES! That's it! (Except, of course, with the arms the right way -- is this what the position is supposed to be, or was the image reversed?)
Is this a posture that is still used in AT?

In the postcard http://www.todotango.com/english/postcards/postal.asp?id=10 the woman does seem to be pushing her bottom out. This, I'm guessing, is a carryover from canyenge where the partners connect at the chest with both partners leaning forward with bottoms extended. "Argentine Tango" was till a reapidly evolving, international dance in the early part of the 1900s.

I posted this link because I thought LindyKeya's instructor may have been trying to get her into this posture.

It is NOT how most people dance AT, nor is it something to be mimicked if you want to learn "contemporary" AT. I have read discussions about some young women who teach AT using this bottom out posture. Don't know about you, but I would NEVER ask a woman if she was dancing with her bottom out on purpose!

Truth be told, though, I have been known to very purposely do the bottom out thing for a short period of time, just for the heck of it, when the music and mood strikes me. If someone calls me on it, I just tell 'em I'm dancing canyenge. No doubt lots of people think I'm just dancing "wrong".

hbboogie1

07-17-2009, 12:08 PM

I don't know, but you commented that my posture was nice and I use my arm accross the shoulders. Nor do I contort my body. I have learned how to dance with that arm position.

I happen to hate the arm position in the video you posted. I think it teaches the ladies to dance backweighted if they aren't drilled in good grounding techniques and the only people I have seem do it really well are not your basic, garden variety social dancers, but pros. If you can get it, great, but it's not the only way.

I completely disagree that you can't have nice posture and have your arm across someone. You have to learn to relax the shoulder joints, but just because you may not like the arm there either because of looks or feel or have experience with that position doesn't make it bad. If a lady doesn't learn the techniques specific to dancing this way then, sure, it's easy for her to get try to reach and get contorted and tense, because she hasn't learned proper teachnique, but if she has, there isn't one thing wrong with it.

As Peaches said in one of the other posture threads, there isn't any dance where bad posture is encouraged.

I wasn’t commenting on your posture just posture in general. It’s possible to wrap the arm around the man’s upper shoulders without effecting balance if the woman is tall with long arms but what I see and I’m sure you see it too is when the woman drapes herself so far over the man that she loses her posture balance and axis. It’s just that so many women do this it’s becoming the norm? As a leader It’s my job to give the woman the space she needs to maintain her balance. When I dance with women that have poor balance it’s usually because of their embrace.

bastet

07-17-2009, 01:00 PM

I wasn’t commenting on your posture just posture in general. It’s possible to wrap the arm around the man’s upper shoulders without effecting balance if the woman is tall with long arms but what I see and I’m sure you see it too is when the woman drapes herself so far over the man that she loses her posture balance and axis. It’s just that so many women do this it’s becoming the norm? As a leader It’s my job to give the woman the space she needs to maintain her balance. When I dance with women that have poor balance it’s usually because of their embrace.

I have certainly seen it and it is yet another aspect of poorly learned technique, just like that follows arm on the back of the shoulder thing can lead to bad habits too.

They are generally engaging the wrong set of muscles (usually lower back), basing their attempt on achieving it by visual reference without understanding how to actually use the upper back to get there. It's not really so much a height issue IMO. I am under 5'4" and my regular partner is 5'11".

I'm sure we could all list just as many pros and cons for favorite embraces but even when you look at someone like Mariana Montes or Geraldine dancing in open, you'll still see they have nicely engaged back muscles regardless of whether they are open or closed. I chose to post videos of them in closed because the OP appeared to be talking about close embrace posture and it didn't sound like a "v" from the description.

Peaches

07-17-2009, 02:49 PM

Actually the woman’s arm position has everything to do with posture. When the woman’s arm is completely wrapped around the man’s back she is contorting her body and creating bad posture. Lately I’ve been seeing some new grips women have started using. One I call the pickpocket hold, her arm is wrapped so far over the man’s shoulder her hand almost reaches his back pants pocket.
The same holds true for the woman’s right arm. When the leader holds her right arm up over her head her balance, axis and movement are restricted.
Without balance, axis and unrestricted movement Tango can still be danced but at what skill level?
I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree.

Contorting is contorting, and it can be done regardless of the type of embrace. Bad posture, bad technique, bad dancing...are all bad regardless of which style or which embrace is being used.

It is entirely possible to dance--and dance at a high skill level--with the woman's hand draped around his neck, or down across his back, or along his back/side on the right, or on his arm. So much depends on what feels comfortable in any particular partnership--relative heights, body shapes, what things tend to be danced...the list goes on and on. The point is, is that it is all possible regardless of where/how she (or he) uses her arms...provided that it is done well, with good technique.

If her technique is bad, and she hangs off his neck with the draped arm...it's not the style and placement that's at fault, it's her technique.

bastet

07-17-2009, 03:11 PM

I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree.

Contorting is contorting, and it can be done regardless of the type of embrace. Bad posture, bad technique, bad dancing...are all bad regardless of which style or which embrace is being used.

It is entirely possible to dance--and dance at a high skill level--with the woman's hand draped around his neck, or down across his back, or along his back/side on the right, or on his arm. So much depends on what feels comfortable in any particular partnership--relative heights, body shapes, what things tend to be danced...the list goes on and on. The point is, is that it is all possible regardless of where/how she (or he) uses her arms...provided that it is done well, with good technique.

If her technique is bad, and she hangs off his neck with the draped arm...it's not the style and placement that's at fault, it's her technique.

well said...

bastet

07-17-2009, 03:15 PM

Without balance, axis and unrestricted movement Tango can still be danced but at what skill level?

Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by "unrestricted movement" implying greater skill? No balance and off axis makes sense enough.

I have honestly never understood why people think that if you aren't doing back sacadas, ganchos and over-rotated ochos every 10 seconds, you are "less skilled" as a dancer....we certainly have several people who beat that drum in my own town...so I can only hope that's not what you are implying.

I've had some perfectly wonderful dances that had some limits due to the embrace we chose to dance in, but it was done well and certainly required skill.

Peaches

07-17-2009, 03:57 PM

Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by "unrestricted movement" implying greater skill? No balance and off axis makes sense enough.

I have honestly never understood why people think that if you aren't doing back sacadas, ganchos and over-rotated ochos every 10 seconds, you are "less skilled" as a dancer....we certainly have several people who beat that drum in my own town...so I can only hope that's not what you are implying.

I've had some perfectly wonderful dances that had some limits due to the embrace we chose to dance in, but it was done well and certainly required skill.
Answering only for myself, which may or may not be even relatively close to what hbboogie had in mind...

It's not about, IMO, what sorts of movements are being done (back sacadas, over-rotated ochos, etc), or even what sort of embrace is being used. To me, it's about "unrestricted movement" within the parameter of whatever embrace or style is being danced at the time.

If an embrace is fine, but the woman's movement of her legs is restricted (not moving from the hips, not keeping her free leg...well, free...and relaxed) then it's a case of restricted movement. Or their movement could be fine, but she doesn't know how to dissociate her upper body from her lower, so the movement is restricted. Or everything else is fine, but the guy seems to believe he's shearing a sheep, or was a boa constrictor in a prior life, so she can't fully move the way she needs to--to dissociate, to adjust her position or embrace (to correct for a mistake perhaps), to deal with balance issues.

Or, the woman is hanging on the guy's neck--his balance is thrown, and his shoulders will probably end up hurting like hell by the time the tanda is over.

Steve Pastor

07-17-2009, 07:48 PM

there isn't any dance where bad posture is encouraged

"Bad posture", an alternative to the preferred posture for Western couples dances is an integral part of the style of some dances: African dance is probably the most obvious example. Canyenge and that protruding bottom is another, as are the styles of many "Lindy Hop" or Jitterbug dancers. Even the dancing it what may be the first Western Swing aka West Coast Swing features quite a "bend" at the waist at times. Country Western, too, that isn't taught in studios features quite a relaxed posture. Hungarian "folk dances" that pre date the influence of "dance masters" featured changes of posture.

I loved the scene(s) in "Save the Last Dance" where the ballet trained young woman was - shall we say ridiculed? - for her upright posture.

OK. I know this is sort of a tangent (what else is new?), but I am convinced that taking Western "dance master" styles as the touchstone for Europeanized dance leaves out a big part of a picture that is much more rich in variation.

Add enough qualifiers to the quoted statement, and I'm ok with it.

hbboogie1

07-17-2009, 08:24 PM

Ampster

07-17-2009, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by hbboogie1
Actually the woman’s arm position has everything to do with posture. When the woman’s arm is completely wrapped around the man’s back she is contorting her body and creating bad posture. Lately I’ve been seeing some new grips women have started using. One I call the pickpocket hold, her arm is wrapped so far over the man’s shoulder her hand almost reaches his back pants pocket.
The same holds true for the woman’s right arm. When the leader holds her right arm up over her head her balance, axis and movement are restricted.
Without balance, axis and unrestricted movement Tango can still be danced but at what skill level?

Originally Posted by bastet
Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by "unrestricted movement" implying greater skill? No balance and off axis makes sense enough.

I have honestly never understood why people think that if you aren't doing back sacadas, ganchos and over-rotated ochos every 10 seconds, you are "less skilled" as a dancer....we certainly have several people who beat that drum in my own town...so I can only hope that's not what you are implying.

I've had some perfectly wonderful dances that had some limits due to the embrace we chose to dance in, but it was done well and certainly required skill.

If the woman is lead into a figure and cannot dance it on her axis and in balance would you agree it’s because her movement is restricted in some way?

It's possible. But, it could be the fault of the leader, and not because of her embrace.

You could have led something badly causing her to be off balance. That's the leader's fault, not hers. It's happens when you dodn't wait for her to land her weight, or didn't give her enough space... a myriad of reasons. Or, as peaches said, her technique could be bad...

hbboogie1

07-18-2009, 01:53 AM

It's possible. But, it could be the fault of the leader, and not because of her embrace.

You could have led something badly causing her to be off balance. That's the leader's fault, not hers. It's happens when you dodn't wait for her to land her weight, or didn't give her enough space... a myriad of reasons. Or, as peaches said, her technique could be bad...

Whoa back up we’re talking about the woman’s arm wrapped around the man restricting her movement and putting her off balance.
You could take one of her shoes and toss it out the window and that would also cause her to be off balance but that’s a different thread for later.

Ampster

07-18-2009, 02:37 AM

Whoa back up we’re talking about the woman’s arm wrapped around the man restricting her movement and putting her off balance.

... And what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter. If she has her octopus arms draped around, its still the leaders job to lead her to center so she can balance. Even if she has bad technique, it's still the leader's job to make it work as best as possible. Otherwise, its not good leading.

It is after, all about HER.

dchester

07-18-2009, 07:09 AM

If the woman is lead into a figure and cannot dance it on her axis and in balance would you agree it’s because her movement is restricted in some way?
What about if they are sharing weight (like an apilado embrace)?

bordertangoman

07-18-2009, 08:13 AM

bastet

07-18-2009, 09:09 AM

I also find the converse to be true; that people sneer at sacadas, ganchos etc because they claim its not traditional when it reflects their own inadequacies and lack of skill in dancing.

I find the same skills are required to dance different "styles"

and I agree with Peaches' post above.

I can certainly agree with Peaches post and Ampster's as well, but I fear that the original meaning was what I thought- you dance in a certain embrace and it automatically means you are less skilled as a dancer. That's the main attitude in my own area- so sad.

So I'm kind of tired of seeing the attitude and reading the attitude so I need to take a little break.

I have no problem with ganchos and sacadas,and I spent several years of tango working on big movements, some of which can even be done in a close embrace with a little adaptation and attention to skill and are a lot of fun with the right leader who can pull them off well and not yank you over in an attempt to "impress" you.

I also dislike the attitude of no ganchos, boleos, etc...ever...but I know when they are appropriate and I can't see that that many people are being taught the difference and I really dislike people doing things like that on crowded floors- or ignoring completely developing any repertoire for close space dancing so they can concentrate on the "big stuff". It's makes things all out of balance.

hbboogie1

07-18-2009, 12:57 PM

Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by "unrestricted movement" implying greater skill? No balance and off axis makes sense enough.

I have honestly never understood why people think that if you aren't doing back sacadas, ganchos and over-rotated ochos every 10 seconds, you are "less skilled" as a dancer....we certainly have several people who beat that drum in my own town...so I can only hope that's not what you are implying.

I've had some perfectly wonderful dances that had some limits due to the embrace we chose to dance in, but it was done well and certainly required skill.

Actually I wasn’t thinking of any specific figure when I mentioned skill. Skill: the ability to do something well, usually gained through training or experience. We all have different opinions when we watch someone dance based on our own experience and training. I see you dance and rate you a beginner but you see yourself as advanced. You see me dance and rate me advanced when I see myself as intermediate. We judge ones skill level by our own opinion.
My opinion is based on how I was taught to tango. One of the things I was taught was never restrict the woman’s movement.
Example #1 if I lead a series of front ochos and remain stationary and lead her only with my arms I’m restricting her movement by not following her with my chest and allowing her to take a full step before pivoting.
Example #2 If she has her arm draped down my back and I lead her in the same ochos she is restricting her own movement by default.
Without unrestricted movement balance and axis cannot be maintained.

Peaches

07-18-2009, 01:37 PM

Example #2 If she has her arm draped down my back and I lead her in the same ochos she is restricting her own movement by default.Only if her understanding, ability and technique is such that she doesn't know to let her arm move as it needs to so she can execute the movement fully. Again, a question of technique (or lack thereof) and not the fault of the arm placement in and of itself.

If she's got her arm draped, and doesn't support her own weight of it, and hangs on the man, and locks it into place such that she restricts her own movement...then, yes, of course there is a problem.

But the problem is not that her arm is draped, but that she does not know how to use it properly.

Steve Pastor

07-18-2009, 03:01 PM

that people sneer at sacadas, ganchos etc because they claim its not traditional when it reflects their own inadequacies and lack of skill in dancing
If they think these movements are "not tradtional", it reflects their lack of knowlede of the history of the dance.

Ampster

07-18-2009, 06:01 PM

Example #1 if I lead a series of front ochos and remain stationary and lead her only with my arms I’m restricting her movement by not following her with my chest and allowing her to take a full step before pivoting.

True.

Example #2 If she has her arm draped down my back and I lead her in the same ochos she is restricting her own movement by default.
Without unrestricted movement balance and axis cannot be maintained.

True, but in this case, you call upon your superior leading skills to read her and ascertain the extent/limit of her movement. You then lead/move to compensate on her behalf in order to make it work.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm just basing my opinion on my personal preference in that, the leader is responsible for what happens on how good the tanda turns out.

Ampster

07-20-2009, 11:31 AM

Taken from the video thread: Pablo's lead (http://dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=711637&postcount=2). Bringing this here as it was referenced below (see 2nd quote)

Originally Posted by opendoor http://dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=711634#post711634)
Can someone comment on the contribution of his left arm to the lead in this video?
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/k4eRgtPdyPzCaRM87u (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/k4eRgtPdyPzCaRM87u)

This is an excellent example for salon style dancing. His left arm is always between him and his partner. He’s holding his hand in line with the woman’s mouth which is exactly where it belongs. Her embrace is also perfect notice her arm on his shoulder when he has her in close embrace and see how easy it is for her to slide her hand down to his biceps when he moves her to open position.
This is what I was trying to point out in a previous thread about the woman’s arm wrapped over the man’s back and hanging down near his wallet = no balance.
By the way…great video

(My bold) This explains a lot. First off they're dancing nuevo. Or fantassia. Whatever you call it, they're dancing LARGE. If this is the tango you dance, then yes, you are right. The arm draped around the shoulder wouldn't work because it is restrictive for this particular style/s of AT.

However, when a woman embraces this way, she's dancing in milonguero (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27415). Also can be referred to as, "Close embrace (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27415)." At which point, you lead in milonguero/close embrace which is very, very different. Leading large stuff in this type of close and intimate embrace will be difficult as you'll knock her off her axis.

P.S. As for Pablo's right hand/arm down closer to her waist, I know a lot of women who complain and dislike being held there in AT. It makes the dance uncomfortable because leaders who do this tend to lead with their right arms, and gives them a feeling of being driven like a bus. The women I know always prefer being led from the center either in close and/or open embrace.

opendoor

07-20-2009, 11:54 AM

I agree on the right hand. But, my read is, that he pulls and drags with his left arm to support the center move??

OD

Ampster

07-20-2009, 12:25 PM

I agree on the right hand. But, my read is, that he pulls and drags with his left arm to support the center move??

OD

Yes, you're right. He's "pumping" the arms. I've seen him do better, even in open embrace. His arm should be stationary and the lead coming from center... However, this looks like a very old video, and could have been BEFORE the leading from the center thing was well established (I'm speculating).

Arm leading is caused when indulging in vigorous open embrace styles. You see it all the time in places where nuevo is being practiced, and the leader doesn't quite have the grasp of leading from the center in an open embrace, so they compensate by pumping arms. A little is always necessary, but should not too much that everyone can see it.

hbboogie1

07-20-2009, 01:04 PM

Yes, you're right. He's "pumping" the arms. I've seen him do better, even in open embrace. His arm should be stationary and the lead coming from center... However, this looks like a very old video, and could have been BEFORE the leading from the center thing was well established (I'm speculating).

Arm leading is caused when indulging in vigorous open embrace styles. You see it all the time in places where nuevo is being practiced, and the leader doesn't quite have the grasp of leading from the center in an open embrace, so they compensate by pumping arms. A little is always necessary, but should not too much that everyone can see it.

It all comes down to what style you dance. I was taught that Juan Carlos Cope and Orlando Piava’s style was Salon Tango. Orlando refined salon into Elegante, which is as the name states very elegant.
The man’s left arm does not pump like milking a cow. The right hand is definitely used to guide the woman but not like driving a bus. This is the hardest style of tango to learn because you both need to be balanced and on axis at all times. I have witnessed a demonstration of Elegante danced at Salon Canning in BsAs you could have heard a pin drop. The milongueros that everyone holds in such high regard were
praising the dancers for such a fine performance. For those of you that don’t know this is not show tango or fantasia? or anything other than social tango. Here is a video of Orlando Piava dancing at Sunderland in BsAs notice what happens when they finish dancing.PS another thing you might notice is his partner keeps her feet on the floor at all times. No need for adornments they would ruin the elegance of the dance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjpJhWFHCKA

bastet

07-20-2009, 01:09 PM

Taken from the video thread: Pablo's lead (http://dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=711637&postcount=2). Bringing this here as it was referenced below (see 2nd quote)

(My bold) This explains a lot. First off they're dancing nuevo. Or fantassia. Whatever you call it, they're dancing LARGE. If this is the tango you dance, then yes, you are right. The arm draped around the shoulder wouldn't work because it is restrictive for this particular style/s of AT.

However, when a woman embraces this way, she's dancing in milonguero (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27415). Also can be referred to as, "Close embrace (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=27415)." At which point, you lead in milonguero/close embrace which is very, very different. Leading large stuff in this type of close and intimate embrace will be difficult as you'll knock her off her axis.

P.S. As for Pablo's right hand/arm down closer to her waist, I know a lot of women who complain and dislike being held there in AT. It makes the dance uncomfortable because leaders who do this tend to lead with their right arms, and gives them a feeling of being driven like a bus. The women I know always prefer being led from the center either in close and/or open embrace.

well said Ampster... one particular arm style doesn't really have anything to do with it. It's using the the right placement relative to how your partner is dancing ans also how you've been trained.

I've been trained both ways/styles (though I have a preference) and poor training either way ends up causing problems. As you and others have said, it's not the arm placement that's the problem, but the training that makes it work or not work, though you probably aren't going to make any further headway in getting your point across to people that aren't willing to listen...oh well.

On pumping arms- I see that now and again. I'm not sure that there's actually any leading going on with it, though I guess there can be, sometimes it's just extraneous movement (like shoulder lifting from the follow) but I am speaking from things I've experienced personally and I didn't watch this video all the way through so I probably shouldn't comment.

hbboogie1

07-20-2009, 01:23 PM

well said Ampster... one particular arm style doesn't really have anything to do with it. It's using the the right placement relative to how your partner is dancing ans also how you've been trained.

I've been trained both ways/styles (though I have a preference) and poor training either way ends up causing problems. As you and others have said, it's not the arm placement that's the problem, but the training that makes it work or not work, though you probably aren't going to make any further headway in getting your point across to people that aren't willing to listen...oh well.

On pumping arms- I see that now and again. I'm not sure that there's actually any leading going on with it, though I guess there can be, sometimes it's just extraneous movement (like shoulder lifting from the follow) but I am speaking from things I've experienced personally and I didn't watch this video all the way through so I probably shouldn't comment.

It all comes down to what style you dance. I was taught that Juan Carlos Cope and Orlando Piava’s style was Salon Tango. Orlando refined salon into Elegante, which is as the name states very elegant.
The man’s left arm does not pump like milking a cow. The right hand is definitely used to guide the woman but not like driving a bus. This is the hardest style of tango to learn because you both need to be balanced and on axis at all times. I have witnessed a demonstration of Elegante danced at Salon Canning in BsAs you could have heard a pin drop. The milongueros that everyone holds in such high regard were
praising the dancers for such a fine performance. For those of you that don’t know this is not show tango or fantasia? or anything other than social tango. Here is a video of Orlando Piava dancing at Sunderland in BsAs notice what happens when they finish dancing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjpJhWFHCKA

PS another thing you might notice is his partner keeps her feet on the floor at all times. No need for adornments they would ruin the elegance of the dance

Zoopsia59

07-20-2009, 03:42 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjpJhWFHCKA

This is an exquisitely led dance and I can't imagine why you think anyone might call it stage dancing simply because they open the embrace here and there.

But this performance is not without problems. Personally, I don't think its a great video for follower's technique and posture. In the general use of footwork, following, and adornment, yes.

But there are at least two places where she seems to be off balance and leaning/pulling her upper body away from him. Once is about at the 2:00 mark, and the other was around 2:15. In both cases, she did not look solid on her axis and in both cases, it seemed to me that her feet were to close to him for the posture she was in to work cleanly. I watched it several times trying to figure out what happened and its hard to tell. In the one at the 2:00 mark, it appears that he takes a very slight movement forward that she doesn't respond to in kind, leaving her feet to close to where he ends up.

In this video from Assassination Tango, he dances a very similar dance with Geraldine Rojas as a social dance in a milonga, not a performance (although of course, the whole thing is a performance since it is a scene in a movie) and this is not an issue, although Geraldine embellishes more than the other follower and perhaps larger than would be normally seen in a crowded BA milonga... (the milonga in this scene is not particularly crowded)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSPW4lqF7qg

Peaches

07-20-2009, 05:13 PM

It all comes down to what style you dance. I was taught that Juan Carlos Cope and Orlando Piava’s style was Salon Tango. Orlando refined salon into Elegante, which is as the name states very elegant.
The man’s left arm does not pump like milking a cow. The right hand is definitely used to guide the woman but not like driving a bus. This is the hardest style of tango to learn because you both need to be balanced and on axis at all times. I have witnessed a demonstration of Elegante danced at Salon Canning in BsAs you could have heard a pin drop. The milongueros that everyone holds in such high regard were
praising the dancers for such a fine performance. For those of you that don’t know this is not show tango or fantasia? or anything other than social tango. Here is a video of Orlando Piava dancing at Sunderland in BsAs notice what happens when they finish dancing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjpJhWFHCKA

PS another thing you might notice is his partner keeps her feet on the floor at all times. No need for adornments they would ruin the elegance of the dance
I would point out that her arm is often, when in close embrace, draped around her neck.

Just sayin'...

spectator

07-20-2009, 05:17 PM

Does anybody else find looking at the different open side arm styles entertaining? at the moment i find "silver service" quite fun to watch... it seems to have replaced "i'm a little teapot" as the style du jour....

Peaches

07-20-2009, 05:24 PM

Er...no. Whaddaya mean, "silver service" and "I'm a little teapot?"

And where the heck have you been, chicky?!?!

spectator

07-20-2009, 05:31 PM

bastet

07-20-2009, 05:52 PM

silver service also looks like "walk like an egyptian" it's when they get your hand like they've got it on a tray and they swing it around like a stroppy french waiter...
I've been travelling around with work, it's a bit like the circus, if the circus was populated by a bunch of nerds.

then there's gunslingers- thumb and forefinger out.

Murat and others with their "thumbs up" for the follower

the only one that seems to cause a problem unless it's don't right is the one I think people saw Gavito do a lot and tried to copy with teh hand curled in...ouchy if not done well.

and others, I'm sure....:p

bastet

07-20-2009, 05:56 PM

I would point out that her arm is often, when in close embrace, draped around her neck.

Just sayin'...

his neck...;)

Peaches

07-20-2009, 06:29 PM

then there's gunslingers- thumb and forefinger out.

Murat and others with their "thumbs up" for the follower

the only one that seems to cause a problem unless it's don't right is the one I think people saw Gavito do a lot and tried to copy with teh hand curled in...ouchy if not done well.

and others, I'm sure....:pHeh...I don't think I've ever really noticed most of these difference y'all are talking about.

Except the hand curled in one...I LOVE that hold when done well.

spectator

07-20-2009, 06:33 PM

i'm too little i end up dangling like a little puppet...

Peaches

07-20-2009, 06:47 PM

LOL. I wish I had that problem. Deeeefinitely not too little. I'd end up dragging like an anchor.

Angel HI

07-21-2009, 04:39 AM

It all comes down to what style you dance. I was taught that Juan Carlos Cope and Orlando Piava’s style was Salon Tango. Copes was one of my orig teachers. His dancing was termed salon only recently...within the last decade or so. He, as I, as many others, hate this incessant divison [by non argentines, mostly] of every little blink of the eye or tilt of the head, as being another "style". He says, as do many others, "It's just tango".

Here is a video of Orlando Piava dancing at Sunderland in BsAs notice what happens when they finish dancing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjpJhWFHCKA Looks simply like plain good dancing to me, as opposed to some special styling. Though I agree completely w/ your assesment of her nonusage of adornos; ganchos, etc.

bordertangoman

07-21-2009, 07:14 AM

It all comes down to what style you dance. I was taught that Juan Carlos Cope and Orlando Piava’s style was Salon Tango. Orlando refined salon into Elegante, which is as the name states very elegant.
The man’s left arm does not pump like milking a cow. The right hand is definitely used to guide the woman but not like driving a bus. This is the hardest style of tango to learn because you both need to be balanced and on axis at all times. I have witnessed a demonstration of Elegante danced at Salon Canning in BsAs you could have heard a pin drop. The milongueros that everyone holds in such high regard were
praising the dancers for such a fine performance. For those of you that don’t know this is not show tango or fantasia? or anything other than social tango. Here is a video of Orlando Piava dancing at Sunderland in BsAs notice what happens when they finish dancing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjpJhWFHCKA

PS another thing you might notice is his partner keeps her feet on the floor at all times. No need for adornments they would ruin the elegance of the dance

I like this video a lot; this hombre knows how to dance slow; not fussed by being slavish to the rhythm. I think this is wonderful piece of dancing; even if it has little hiccups; but like a good dancer he is unperturbed by these... and the dance carries on....

so many people are afraid of SLOW but I love it.

hbboogie1

07-21-2009, 05:14 PM

This is an exquisitely led dance and I can't imagine why you think anyone might call it stage dancing simply because they open the embrace here and there.

But this performance is not without problems. Personally, I don't think its a great video for follower's technique and posture. In the general use of footwork, following, and adornment, yes.

But there are at least two places where she seems to be off balance and leaning/pulling her upper body away from him. Once is about at the 2:00 mark, and the other was around 2:15. In both cases, she did not look solid on her axis and in both cases, it seemed to me that her feet were to close to him for the posture she was in to work cleanly. I watched it several times trying to figure out what happened and its hard to tell. In the one at the 2:00 mark, it appears that he takes a very slight movement forward that she doesn't respond to in kind, leaving her feet to close to where he ends up.

In this video from Assassination Tango, he dances a very similar dance with Geraldine Rojas as a social dance in a milonga, not a performance (although of course, the whole thing is a performance since it is a scene in a movie) and this is not an issue, although Geraldine embellishes more than the other follower and perhaps larger than would be normally seen in a crowded BA milonga... (the milonga in this scene is not particularly crowded)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSPW4lqF7qg

I was at the Vatican admiring the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel along with 500 other tourist when from out of the crowd one lady started complaining about a smudge she spotted way up in one corner of the ceiling.
How sad it was that all she could see was that smudge and not the beauty of the painting.

Zoopsia59

07-21-2009, 09:23 PM

I was at the Vatican admiring the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel along with 500 other tourist when from out of the crowd one lady started complaining about a smudge she spotted way up in one corner of the ceiling.
How sad it was that all she could see was that smudge and not the beauty of the painting.

The Originator of this thread (remember her? From 6 pages and several tangents ago?) is a follower looking for examples of followers' posture and technique to understand what she needs to do, as well as communicate to us what she feels she was taught erroneously.

Regardless of how I feel about the overall quality of the dance you posted, THAT is the subject of this thread, and as such, I felt it was important to point out that the follower's posture in this video was not ideal, but was in fact, in some places, an example of what happens when the follower's weight gets back on her heels and she tries to compensate by pushing forward in her waist/hip area and back with her shoulders (and then forward again with her head). In light of the fact that we were discussing leaning back and its problems, I didn't think a video of a follower getting off axis was the ideal "shoot for this" example.

If you want to start a different thread on all the things that are fabulous in this dance (of which there are many) start another thread to sing its praises, and I'll be right there agreeing with you. This is a GREAT example of leading, and I think the people who responded so far agree and value primarily that aspect.

However, this thread was supposed to be about follower's technique, how to use the back, and the proper orientation to the leader, especially as opposed to ballroom posture.

THAT is why I responded to this video as I did. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered. I didn't want the OP to get confused and say... "but SHE'S not 'forward'", even though overall, the woman looks pretty good in this video, especially in the backwards walking. The success of this dance is due pretty much to the extraordinary leader, not as much to the high skill level of this follower. In fact, for quite a bit of the video, the view of the follower is obscured.