Teacher rating - criteria?

[Dave Bailey]

When I was asked which AT teachers to go to, I used to say "All teachers are different, you've got to find one that fits you", or some similar weasel-words.

Now I'm not so sure. Whilst I know rating teachers is a subjective exercise in some ways, I think that I've got a bit more appreciation for the level of "quality" of teachers, at least in my little corner of the world.

It makes perfect sense that there is a range of teaching ability, of course - just like in all fields of life, some are wonderful, some are awful, and most are in between.

And whilst, yes, there's a subjective element to this, there must also be some more objective measures we can use.

So how can we judge? What criteria would you use?

[Joe]

The primary way to judge teachers is how effectively they are able to communicate the principles of dance to their students, and how quickly those students' skills improve. On average, of course—not every student is equal. The teacher's ability to dance is not particularly relevant.

[Steve Pastor]

Went to a "dance festival" here in Portland yeterday to see what they were offering as "Swango" (there was just this one class being offered).
Someone told me that most teachers had about 20 people in their classes. Meanwhile, one teacher couple had about a hundred people in their class.
So, one way to evaluate someone as a teacher is how many students they have.
People have come, and, it seems, gone, as "teachers" here in Portland in the years that I've been paying attention.
There are other many factors invovled, of course. Let's see wheich ones are brought up here.

[hbboogie1]

Dave Bailey;710087]When I was asked which AT teachers to go to, I used to say "All teachers are different, you've got to find one that fits you", or some similar weasel-words.

Now I'm not so sure. Whilst I know rating teachers is a subjective exercise in some ways, I think that I've got a bit more appreciation for the level of "quality" of teachers, at least in my little corner of the world.

It makes perfect sense that there is a range of teaching ability, of course - just like in all fields of life, some are wonderful, some are awful, and most are in between.

And whilst, yes, there's a subjective element to this, there must also be some more objective measures we can use.

So how can we judge? What criteria would you use?[/I]


I’m talking about choosing teachers for private lessons only.
First get a partner to take the lessons with you so you’ll be able to practice what you learn in the class.
Next decide on what style you want to learn. Close-Salon-Nuevo
Only choose instructors who have partners that they teach with. You want both points of view.
Now watch the instructors dance. Are you satisfied with how they dance? Is this the way you want to dance someday?
If you don’t like the style or quality of their dancing why would you want to hire them? And don’t give me the old football crap trap about the fat cigar smoking coach having the winning team, this is tango not football and for $100 per hour I’m going to be very picky.

I also believe in learning one style of tango. I’m not saying to dance one style but to first learn one style. The big mistake I see a lot of people make is jumping from one instructor to another privates or group it doesn’t matter. The first guy teaches you his version the next guy teaches his and they will not be the same because every instructor has his own point of view. I’m not saying his point of view is wrong but if you keep jumping in and out of different points of views your tango will suffer and you will be confused.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

My criteria.
1. The instructor has to be a great tango dancer and a milonguero/a.
2. He/she has an extensive knowledge of Argentine music and culture (in my book, actually, that is included in #1).
3. He/she has already produced a number of adequate social tango dancers.
4. In his/her classes he/she stresses the basics rather than teaching patterns.
5. He/she explicitly encourages his/her students to aspire to all of the above.

What he/she should not be:
-A ballroom dance instructor/show dancer who has never set foot to a milonga. That means:
-Anyone who does not regularly dance tango socially is not considered.
- How many students attend the classes is not a criterion. Some instructors seem to attract crowds of perpetual beginners, walking horrors, crazy and unpleasant people. I believe there is a reason for that.
Yes, teaching tango is a business, but I will not go to those who primarily interested in money, and who ends up encouraging mediocrity and lack of etiquette in their students.

[Zoopsia59]

First get a partner to take the lessons with you so you’ll be able to practice what you learn in the class.
Only choose instructors who have partners that they teach with. You want both points of view.
.

Of all the Private lessons I've taken, 4 really stand out to me as far as significant breakthroughs.

Two of those were with a single instructor and two were with a couple. In both "single" cases, the instructor was female and primarily a follower (with leading skills) as am I. In the case of the couple, both times it was the male leader who gave me the major "Ah ha!" moment. (although the woman did consistently remind me of things I already knew but sometimes forget while dancing)

So in none of these 4 cases was it necessary for me to have a couple teaching me.

I think it is very helpful, especially for beginners, to have a couple teaching a GROUP class so they can see what things are supposed to look like before they try them. Most people are visual learners, not kinesthetic or auditory learners.

But I think it is completely optional in a private lesson, especially for a non-beginner. Its not even important whether you take from someone who dances the same or opposite role you dance. A good teacher will still have something valuable to offer you. And I think its totally unnecessary to take a private with a partner unless you have a regular partner and want to work on the way you dance and work together. In fact, I think it dillutes the amount of attention you get on YOUR OWN dancing if you have someone there with you just for the sake of it, that may or may not be someone with whom you dance regularly or well.

Taking from a couple is great, if its available and affordable. But sometimes neither is the case.

[Zoopsia59]

- How many students attend the classes is not a criterion. Some instructors seem to attract crowds of perpetual beginners, walking horrors, crazy and unpleasant people.

So true.... often because of their nationality or performing experience rather than their ability to nurture students as individuals.

And the larger the class, the more likely it is that step patterns will get taught. Ironically, of the privates I mentioned above, I did not enjoy the GROUP classes of some of those same instructors.

[Zoopsia59]

-Anyone who does not regularly dance tango socially is not considered.


I'm adding a new criteria for myself... anyone who never dances with their students is not considered. Especially if they won't even dance with the students who have invested lots of money in private lessons or long term group classes. I give extra credit to instructors who make a point of dancing with their beginner students who might be lost and intimidated at the milonga.

I realize that some instructors could not POSSIBLY dance with all their students and still have any time left at the milonga to enjoy dancing with other advanced dancers, but to NEVER dance with students is just unforgivable in my book. My first instructor not only danced with me, but actually arranged for the class to go together to our first milonga (and danced with us all). Few instructors I've had since have danced with me socially. (although the female instructors I took privates with did dance as a follower with male students, so I'm letting them off the hook)

I actually went to one milonga that was very sparsely attended (less than a dozen people!) with about a 4 to 1 ratio of followers to leaders, and the instructor who had taught workshops all day did not dance with ANY of the followers sitting out... not even the ones who had attended the workshop. He only danced with his partner.

[Zoopsia59]

And don’t give me the old football crap trap about the fat cigar smoking coach having the winning team, this is tango not football

What about the older, could-sustain-hip-fracture-with-single-fall, figure skating coaches who turn out Olympic champions, including ice-dance champions? Its not crap trap. (and if you disagree with me, please use respectful language in your reply)

[jerseydancer]

This seems so strange that some people still believe that great dancers always turn into these amazing dance teachers. The reality is: some definitely do but many do not and vice versa; we all know good dancers not reaching the top level in their dancing carrier by many reasons that turn out to be amazing teachers producing top dancers all around the world. Dancing and teaching to dance are two different skills, and some dancers master both, and the most master only one.

So, if you want to rate dance teachers then look at their students. Where and when did they start, how fast they progressed, and how far did they go with their natural abilities. That would be very dificult to rate without knowing the dancers themselves. When I see a top dancer I may be hesitant to take a lesson from that dancer, but I would definitely like to try out his/her teacher.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Speaking of Argentine tango, the notion of "reaching the top level of the dancing career" seems a little...
unclear. Is Pocho for example, or Dany El Flaco Garcia, or Ruben Harymblat at the top level of their dancing right now? And if not, when were they?
Very often if you take a great tango dancer who keeps dancing socially, his or her dancing keeps changing all the time. If you go to Buenos Aires once or twice a year, observe milongueros, dance with them, you can see and feel that difference. That is the nature of the art, and that is the beauty of it.

Perhaps, it is possible to learn something from a so-so dancer. After all, we learn all the time, and from all kind of experiences we get. But why would I allocate my time and money to a so-so dancer when I know I can go and learn from a great dancer?

[dchester]

The big mistake I see a lot of people make is jumping from one instructor to another privates or group it doesn’t matter. The first guy teaches you his version the next guy teaches his and they will not be the same because every instructor has his own point of view. I’m not saying his point of view is wrong but if you keep jumping in and out of different points of views your tango will suffer and you will be confused.
I went to lots of different teachers, and it didn't confuse me at all. In fact, I found it to be quite helpful to understand there was more than one way to skin a cat.

[Zoopsia59]

the notion of "reaching the top level of the dancing career" seems a little...
unclear. Is Pocho for example, or Dany El Flaco Garcia, or Ruben Harymblat at the top level of their dancing right now? And if not, when were they?


My take on what Jersey wrote is not about when someone is at their own personal "top level", but whether or not someone reaches the "top level" in the field itself. (like those skaters who were never world champions, but became world level coaches.. they did not reach the "top level" in skating, as skaters, regardless of their own personal "top level")

I would think everyone is always pretty much at the "top-est" level they've ever been (up to that point).. It SEEMS like we ocassionally backslide, but in reality, we are actually usually improving in our dancing (and for those of us who do any teaching, we are also hopefully always improving there too.) Sure we have off nights or occasions where we are not able to do as well as we have on other occasions, but in general, we are always getting better.

So as to personal best, mostly we are always the best we've ever been, and at the same time worse than we will ever be from now on....

[hbboogie1]

Zoopsia59;710186]What about the older, could-sustain-hip-fracture-with-single-fall, figure skating coaches who turn out Olympic champions, including ice-dance champions? Its not crap trap. (and if you disagree with me, please use respectful language in your reply[/I])

My point of view is to hire instructors that can dance what they teach. I want a female instructor to be able to demonstrate to my partner proper figures, how it feels how to move how to turn. I need a male instructor to interact with both of us. This is what I expect in my privates.

In So Cal there are only three instructors I would consider taking from. They all come from Argentina from the same province and the same Maestro taught them all so naturally they teach the same style.

I suggest that you take lessons from someone whose style you appreciate and identify with.

Personally I wouldn’t want to take dance lessons from an old guy with a fractured hip who no longer dances.

[flyhere]

...In So Cal there are only three instructors I would consider taking from. They all come from Argentina from the same province and the same Maestro taught them all so naturally they teach the same style...

sorry to hijack the thread...

hbboogie: Thanks for your suggestion on teachers (and shoes), we are enjoying our AT lessons, we like the way they teach (btw, this was without knowing who his maestro was, interesting to find out afterwards). Also had to google to see who the third instructor is, the enquiring mind wants to know.

[shutterbox]

My criteria.
1. The instructor has to be a great tango dancer and a milonguero/a.
2. He/she has an extensive knowledge of Argentine music and culture (in my book, actually, that is included in #1).
3. He/she has already produced a number of adequate social tango dancers.
4. In his/her classes he/she stresses the basics rather than teaching patterns.
5. He/she explicitly encourages his/her students to aspire to all of the above.

I share mostly the same views. Another point I look out for, is to see how his/her students dance.


What he/she should not be:
-A ballroom dance instructor/show dancer who has never set foot to a milonga. That means:
-Anyone who does not regularly dance tango socially is not considered.
- How many students attend the classes is not a criterion. Some instructors seem to attract crowds of perpetual beginners, walking horrors, crazy and unpleasant people. I believe there is a reason for that.
Yes, teaching tango is a business, but I will not go to those who primarily interested in money, and who ends up encouraging mediocrity and lack of etiquette in their students.

I agree to these too, especially the last point.
Some see AT as a commerically viable venture, and depends on how the organisers(themselves not necessarily AT dancers) put things together, its very profitable business and also a way to reach out to rich and effluent.

[opendoor]

1. The instructor has to be a great tango dancer and a milonguero

2. He/she has an extensive knowledge of Argentine music and culture

3. He/she has already produced a number of adequate social tango dancers.

4. In his/her classes he/she stresses the basics rather than teaching patterns.

5. He/she explicitly encourages his/her students to aspire to all of the above.

Very good list ! I do agree in all, but the first point: My experience is (and the data base is not small), that good dancers are less good teachers. May I add:

6. He/she helps beginners to put up a social network and peer group.

OD

[Dave Bailey]

So true.... often because of their nationality or performing experience rather than their ability to nurture students as individuals.
Which is exactly why I'm trying to identify objective criteria.

And the larger the class, the more likely it is that step patterns will get taught. Ironically, of the privates I mentioned above, I did not enjoy the GROUP classes of some of those same instructors.
Good point.

There's different skills involved in managing a larger class. Crowd management, clarity of speaking, class design, and so on.

At some point, with large classes, you almost have to simply demonstrate a pattern, and hope that you can impart some technique into that pattern.

[Dave Bailey]

Very good list ! I do agree in all, but the first point: My experience is, that good dancers are less good teachers.
I think "natural" dancers can make poor teachers - in the same way that natural-language German speakers (for example) can make poor German teachers.

I think you need your teacher to be able to relate to your own experience, because they'll then know what sort of problems to fix, and will be able to explain the fix in terms that make sense to you.

[bordertangoman]

I think "natural" dancers can make poor teachers - in the same way that natural-language German speakers (for example) can make poor German teachers.

I think you need your teacher to be able to relate to your own experience, because they'll then know what sort of problems to fix, and will be able to explain the fix in terms that make sense to you.

I would also say that can be true of professional dancers; if you have a ballet or contemporary training you will have everything in your head in an eight count and you will have worked very hard and long on technique to acheive your skills.

which your average social student just isnt going to do.

[opendoor]

.. your teacher to be able to relate to your own experience..

But it seems, that some good dancers cannot abstract from their own experience, nor can they slip into another person. Second problem: you must have the ability to put anatomical or movement concerning stuff into real words!

[Joe]

I actually went to one milonga that was very sparsely attended (less than a dozen people!) with about a 4 to 1 ratio of followers to leaders, and the instructor who had taught workshops all day did not dance with ANY of the followers sitting out... not even the ones who had attended the workshop. He only danced with his partner.
So, you expect the man to teach all day, AND dance all night with people who may be uncomfortable for him to dance with?

[Dave Bailey]

So, you expect the man to teach all day, AND dance all night with people who may be uncomfortable for him to dance with?
Well, yeah. I mean, he's the teacher...

[Heather2007]

So, you expect the man to teach all day, AND dance all night with people who may be uncomfortable for him to dance with?

Quite. Also, he dancing with his partner only maybe his way of switching off from the class and just enjoying the (milonga) moment.

I actually went to one milonga that was very sparsely attended (less than a dozen people!) with about a 4 to 1 ratio of followers to leaders, and the instructor who had taught workshops all day did not dance with ANY of the followers sitting out... not even the ones who had attended the workshop. He only danced with his partner.

Did any of the followers bother to go and ask him for a dance? I suspect not. And so who one chooses or chooses not to dance with works both ways.

[Dave Bailey]

Did any of the followers bother to go and ask him for a dance?
In Tango? Beginner followers? Asking a teacher? I'm not sure I've ever seen that happen...

Anyway, can we get back on-topic? Any more suggestions for objective assessment criteria for "teacher ability"?

[bordertangoman]

In Tango? Beginner followers? Asking a teacher? I'm not sure I've ever seen that happen...

Anyway, can we get back on-topic? Any more suggestions for objective assessment criteria for "teacher ability"?

iN y experience of teaching tango, a good teacher has be like a zoo keeper; you have a multitude of different animals in your class each with its own interpretation of what you say and with its own way moving; eg the giraffe likes to move elegantly along; the rhino wants to plod rhythmically and the hippos wallow;the seals want to tricks; the orang-utan are after connection, and the jackals are trying to score, whilst the monkeys have Attention Deficit Disorder and will start monkeying around after 2 minutes of doing the exercise. So the zoo keeper has to figure out what each animal needs as well as what all the animals together can cope with.

[Zoopsia59]

So, you expect the man to teach all day, AND dance all night with people who may be uncomfortable for him to dance with?

Oh good grief... if he was all that tired, he could have bowed out of attending the milonga. He was a guest teacher after all, not the organizer.

At the very least he could have struck up conversations with the people sitting around. He didn't do that either.

Remember, we're talking about someone who did dance quite a bit at the milonga (so... no, not that tired) and couldn't bring himself to dance even ONE tanda with a local follower even though there were less than 10 of them there. Given the attendance, he could have danced one tanda with every follower there and still had at least 1/2 the night left.

He spent the entire night with his partner and did not interact with any of us. That's very noticable when you have less than a dozen people in a room, most of whom are NOT dancing.

/end off topic

[Zoopsia59]

the giraffe likes to move elegantly along; the rhino wants to plod rhythmically and the hippos wallow;the seals want to tricks; the orang-utan are after connection, and the jackals are trying to score, whilst the monkeys have Attention Deficit Disorder and will start monkeying around after 2 minutes of doing the exercise. So the zoo keeper has to figure out what each animal needs as well as what all the animals together can cope with.

What a great analogy!

[Zoopsia59]

I think "natural" dancers can make poor teachers - in the same way that natural-language German speakers (for example) can make poor German teachers.

I think you need your teacher to be able to relate to your own experience, because they'll then know what sort of problems to fix, and will be able to explain the fix in terms that make sense to you.

This is a good point. I don't think natural dancers are always going to be bad teachers, but I do think they have to spend time breaking down and analyzing stuff in a way they might not have had to do when they learned it themselves.

There are some things that come very naturally to me and I have had to give a lot of thought to them to be able to explain or teach them. FAR more thought and analysis than I had to spend to just do it. It certainly has been easier to teach things that I had to work at myself to "get". I can see in others both the issues that I had and the issues I didn't have myself. But its harder to explain the correction of something that wasn't an issue for me.

One of the benefits of continuing to take lower level classes is to see how other teachers explain various things and to take note of what they notice in students that I might have missed. (That is, when I can find a class that isn't all about a step pattern)

Still a long way to go to become a great teacher...:rolleyes:

[bordertangoman]

What a great analogy!

yeah you need a sackful of peanuts bananas, cabbage leaves, etc to keep them all happy

[Zoopsia59]

yeah you need a sackful of peanuts bananas, cabbage leaves, etc to keep them all happy

Ah! So that's where I'm going wrong.. Its not my ability to explain tango... I just don't have the right SNACKS!

[Gssh]

I have been thinking about this especially in context of the other thread.

For a beginning AT dancer the main criterion to rate a teacher on should be the students: Are the students at milongas? Do you like the way they dancer there? Do they seem to be having fun/be competent? Are they able to follow the line of dance/flow of the dancefloor or are they stuck in the middle of the dancefloor or a corner? Do they dance a style that is attractive to the student? Nothing else really matters. So my advice would be to go to a local milonga, look at people, and ask the ones that look "good" to them who they recommend as a teacher for a beginner. This is not really about dancing skills, but about the skill to transmit it to students and make them comfortable and confident for social dancing.

Gssh

[Gssh]

Ah! So that's where I'm going wrong.. Its not my ability to explain tango... I just don't have the right SNACKS!

Well, my favourite milonga here is the one with the best food :)

Gssh

[dchester]

And whilst, yes, there's a subjective element to this, there must also be some more objective measures we can use.

So how can we judge? What criteria would you use?Here is what complicates all of this. There is teaching privates vs workshops, beginners vs intermediates vs advanced, and finally there are different personalities (and quirks) which also effect which teachers work well with which students.

Example of one of my quirks: Several times I've had a teacher tell me to just do "what is natural", and so I do what is natural for me, and they say, "No, that's not correct". Then they proceed to tell me what the "natural" movement is. At this point, it's difficult to take anything the teacher says after that seriously, if they don't even understand that what's natural for one person isn't necessarily natural for someone else.

OK, back to the topic, what "objective" criteria are common across the board.


Ability to communicate/explain in a clear, unambiguous way.
Ability to communicate in a way that keeps people motivated and positive.
Knowledgeable on the subject being taught (they actually know what they are talking about).
Being able to focus on the topic/skill that they are trying to teach. The pattern should not be the focus.
Being able to observe and diagnose problems that the students are encountering.
Being able to adjust/adapt to the level of the class.
Making it clear (ahead of time) what the prerequisites actually are (not just intermediate or advanced).
Being able to explain the lead (and follow), as opposed to just explaining the step.

[Heather2007]

In Tango? Beginner followers? Asking a teacher? I'm not sure I've ever seen that happen...

Hmm, read again - Zoops didn't make any mention of "beginner" followers. Warning - when reading the para. again. it'll be like those email you get asking you to read the paragraph and count the amount of "f's" you can see. But trust me, the word "beginner" won't be there. :-)

I actually went to one milonga that was very sparsely attended (less than a dozen people!) with about a 4 to 1 ratio of followers to leaders, and the instructor who had taught workshops all day did not dance with ANY of the followers sitting out... not even the ones who had attended the workshop. He only danced with his partner.

Anyway, can we get back on-topic? Any more suggestions for objective assessment criteria for "teacher ability"?

One's suggestion can be so totally different from the masses. A bit like a film, a glass of wine etc. One can but try and see what suits them. If it works, good. If not, move on. That said, what should be universal - with all teachers - is sympathy towards the student and not making them feel like an beginner even though they are. Crikey, this beginning to sound like deja vu Hasn't there been a similar Thread in the past?

[bastet]

iN y experience of teaching tango, a good teacher has be like a zoo keeper; you have a multitude of different animals in your class each with its own interpretation of what you say and with its own way moving; eg the giraffe likes to move elegantly along; the rhino wants to plod rhythmically and the hippos wallow;the seals want to tricks; the orang-utan are after connection, and the jackals are trying to score, whilst the monkeys have Attention Deficit Disorder and will start monkeying around after 2 minutes of doing the exercise. So the zoo keeper has to figure out what each animal needs as well as what all the animals together can cope with.

something such...and it would take years of only doing just the teaching part to figure out what every animal needs and be able to give that...

[bastet]

To be honest...I've become un-fond of a "black and white" completely objective approach to things. The things you may want (versus need) as you start are going to be different than what you want/need later on and you need to leave an open mind to your changing needs as you gain experience, and hopefully smarter at recognizing what you want versus what you need.

Most students when they start seem to have an idea of what they think they want and they go find a teacher that they think is doing what they want (regardless of if it what they need) and I don't think you can really stop that.

You may tell someone at the start they need to look for X and Y, but if that doesn't make any sense to where they are at that time, you won't convince them.

And I think it's extremely difficult for both teachers and students to take a neutral approach. Students go to a teacher and get told X and Y is correct and then go to another teacher and told it isn't, and both may be right for the way they are teaching...and without the understanding and experience to know what they need out of a teacher at that time, it only gets confusing for a beginner- and if the teacher reinforces an absolute attitude, that generally rubs off on the student.

I'd say at the very least, a person should look at a teacher to see if they are teaching in a lead and follow format (and teaching that open, closed or whatever not being an absolute) and that their way of teaching it makes sense (even if it is a different technique than some other person taught).

I would also look for teachers that can talk about the social aspects of going out and dancing- floorcraft, ettiquette and so forth since AT is a very social dance it only makes sense that a teacher needs to know how to teach the students to deal with a social setting and so they also need to be aquainted with social dancing. This is one of those "needs" rather than a want...most students probably aren't thinking about this when they start dancing.

Other things I find important now are...teachers that are not trashing other teachers in the area because that's disrespectful, and are respectful of technique differences (and styles) in tango especially if they specialize in only one (and like I said, beginners generally aren't thinking about different styles or have the experience to know the difference and why it's ok). This may not be a need or a want of the student, but how the teacher speaks of others in the community to me says a lot about their MO and how much "politicking" will be present in their group of students and their general interaction with the local social community and I don't personally liek to be a part of "bad vibes" if I can help it.

[Zoopsia59]

For a beginning AT dancer the main criterion to rate a teacher on should be the students: Are the students at milongas? Do you like the way they dancer there? Do they seem to be having fun/be competent? Are they able to follow the line of dance/flow of the dancefloor or are they stuck in the middle of the dancefloor or a corner? Do they dance a style that is attractive to the student? Nothing else really matters. So my advice would be to go to a local milonga, look at people, and ask the ones that look "good" to them who they recommend as a teacher for a beginner. This is not really about dancing skills, but about the skill to transmit it to students and make them comfortable and confident for social dancing.
Gssh

This is all very good advice, but the bit about whether they use LOD or get stuck in the middle or a corner is only useful for evaluating the leader. You can't tell much about the followers' teachers from where they end up dancing on the floor since they have no control of that. In fact, its pretty hard for an untrained eye (which a beginner looking for a teacher would be) to tell much about whether a follower is any good. A beginner observer wouldn't know what to look for that is independent of how the follower is led.

So if you are watching followers to analyze teachers, make sure you watch the follower with various partners, and pay close attention to the postural and movement elements that she can do correctly in spite of a bad lead.

[hbboogie1]

This is all very good advice, but the bit about whether they use LOD or get stuck in the middle or a corner is only useful for evaluating the leader. You can't tell much about the followers' teachers from where they end up dancing on the floor since they have no control of that. In fact, its pretty hard for an untrained eye (which a beginner looking for a teacher would be) to tell much about whether a follower is any good. A beginner observer wouldn't know what to look for that is independent of how the follower is led.

So if you are watching followers to analyze teachers, make sure you watch the follower with various partners, and pay close attention to the postural and movement elements that she can do correctly in spite of a bad lead.

Something I like to do at milongas is to sit next to a beginner and ask “who do you like” Most of the time they’ll pick the most unskilled dancer on the floor. Why? Because they know nothing about tango so when they see the couple doing all the jumps and kicks they think that’s tango.
Try it at your next milonga you’ll be amused at who they pick.

I think most will to go to milongas that offer a beginner class before the dance and that’s how they get introduced into tango. I will always recommend taking privates over group especially for a beginner. The question is still who should he/she take lessons from? I think it’s a matter of luck to choose a good instructor or a matter of bad luck to choose one bad instructor after another before you either quit or are lucky enough to end up with that one good instructor that you bond with.

It really makes me happy to watch a beginner progress into a good dancer over time I will always complement them and give them encouragement.
It also saddens me to see a dancer with potential fall into the endless kicking and jumping and never really evolve into a good dancer.

(Previous thread)
When I see women turn to the dark side “endless kicking and jumping” I stop asking them to dance.

[newbie]

You judge a teacher by the dance of his pupils.

[hbboogie1]

You judge a teacher by the dance of his pupils.

Yes and No
Remember people have different skill levels. I know people who take endless private lessons from my instructor and they can only progress to a certain point based on personal talent. So you can’t base an opinion of a teacher on how good someone dances that he taught but you can base it on how far along the person has progressed based on his skill level. You can also see certain basic fundamentals that were taught that other instructors seem to skip over. So yes maybe that person isn’t the greatest dancer on the floor but he will have a better understanding of how tango is danced thanks to the instructor.

[Heather2007]

You judge a teacher by the dance of his pupils.

Not every pupil will crack it. If, say, you're studying one who simply does not have the gift of the dance (i.e. destined to remain at a below average level) and then go onto study another who trains with the same teacher but exhibits signs of betterness but just above average would you then judge that teacher to be of only average level also? Pupils are not laboratory clones of their teacher and so there will be varying levels/standards/abilities in any one given class. Ane reality is, only a teeny-weeny percentage (to my eyes, that is) manage to make it to the "not bad in fact" grade. And so no, I certainly would not advise a beginner to judge the teacher by the student. Rather to judge the teacher by what it is they get out of the class for themselves. Also, speaking to the teacher beforehand. Do you get a sense that she/he sounds like a stock market trading mortgage broker? Or do they have qualities that remind you of your favourite teacher at primary school? Abilities should, first and foremost, be judged by the character of the teacher. There have been some fabulous dancing performers who when in a classroom situation haven't a clue how to control a very large class or so emotionally castrated they lose attachment to the very person that they are teaching. I witnessed a personal trainer with his client in the gym yesterday first - upstairs - spending too much time watching me stretch and then later - downstairs - having a good ole goss with his colleague while his tiring client started to move the weight in such a way that I thought: ouch, ouch, ouch. Sooooo tempted was I to march over and snatch the damned thing from her - if only to save her spine from any future agony. But no, he was the one getting her dosh and so...

[Zoopsia59]

Not every pupil will crack it. If, say, you're studying one who simply does not have the gift of the dance

Not every student will master the dance, but ANY student (leader) should be able to master basic floorcraft. If a leader is charging all over the place, cutting diagonally across the floor, or moving against LOD, then that's not a good sign for what he's getting taught. If he does all this while executing flashy steps, then that's an even worse sign. ANy leader who has been taking long enough to learn the fancy stuff should have learned how to properly and respectfully navigate the floor by then.

Doesn't help with analyzing followers, but tells you a lot about the leaders and the instruction they're getting.

[Zoopsia59]

you can’t base an opinion of a teacher on how good someone dances that he taught but you can base it on how far along the person has progressed based on his skill level. You can also see certain basic fundamentals that were taught that other instructors seem to skip over. So yes maybe that person isn’t the greatest dancer on the floor but he will have a better understanding of how tango is danced thanks to the instructor.

yes.

[bordertangoman]

Not every student will master the dance, but ANY student (leader) should be able to master basic floorcraft. If a leader is charging all over the place, cutting diagonally across the floor, or moving against LOD, then that's not a good sign for what he's getting taught. If he does all this while executing flashy steps, then that's an even worse sign. ANy leader who has been taking long enough to learn the fancy stuff should have learned how to properly and respectfully navigate the floor by then.

.

So you are holding teachers responsible for students who dont bother to learn good floor craft? I would echo what Heather said above; students do not necessarily reflect the quality of the teacher. i think floorcraft goes out the window for a lot of beginner leaders who are often absorbed in just walking and lose awareness of whats around them.

[newbie]

Ok.
So, with the proviso that all the teachers meet a similar (gift, age, gender, mood, number, dedication...) sample of students, and not counting the very skilled but very unfortunate teachers who are always presented with terrible students...

You judge a teacher by the dance of his pupils.

For instance, most of Gustavo's pupils are teachers themselves. That would place Gustavo quite high in the rankings, which is not counter-intuitive.

[Heather2007]

Not every student will master the dance, but ANY student (leader) should be able to master basic floorcraft. If a leader is charging all over the place, cutting diagonally across the floor, or moving against LOD, then that's not a good sign for what he's getting taught.

Disagree. Floorcraft is told not taught = If a couple has paused in front of you, usually means there's a couple in front of them - so what do you? Common sense reaction: You don't barge pass them. Equally, if it's a crowded milonga do not treat the place like Catford Dog Track. Those that fail to adminsiter their basic Milonga-Mirror-Signal-Manouvre is down to temperment and not the teacher.

Proof: I was never told how to floor manage. I merely took a woman in my arms and "watched" the traffic. And so...

Doesn't help with analyzing followers, but tells you a lot about the leaders and the instruction they're getting.

A teacher can say all she/he likes in a class but the basic temperament of one who is considerate or inconsiderate will kick in once the music chimes and so the faults of the man mimicking a greyhound chasing a rabbit should not be put on the shoulders that taught him. A man, yesterday stood too close to me - practically breathing down my neck - at the ATM. I stopped, turned and told him to step back and give me some space. He tutted, huffed, rolled his eyes and finally succumbed to doing what he was told. Who do I blame for his lack of spatial awareness - his maths teacher?

[Heather2007]

of beginner leaders who are often absorbed in just walking and lose awareness of whats around them.

And not to mention the advanced followers, their killer heels, large boleos in a confined area. Yep, coming from the same school of thought as my man at the ATM. :bkick:

[Zoopsia59]

So you are holding teachers responsible for students who dont bother to learn good floor craft? I would echo what Heather said above; students do not necessarily reflect the quality of the teacher. i think floorcraft goes out the window for a lot of beginner leaders who are often absorbed in just walking and lose awareness of whats around them.

Beginner students don't do fancy moves while charging all around the floor irregardless of other people. There is a difference between someone who hasn't yet learned to navigate smoothly, gets stuck unable to remember things and accidentally bumps because they were concentrating, and someone who blatantly disregards the proper flow. Beginners can simply walk in LOD. If they go backwards, its because someone taught them a step that travels backwards.. very few men will instinctively take backwards steps if they weren't shown them. And they will only be floundering trying to find a place to do their memorized step sequence if they were taught long step patterns before ever being taught to just walk the line of dance.

I maintain that if the teacher emphasizes it from the beginning, floorcraft will be reflected in that teacher's students. Its possible to teach people from day ONE about Line of Dance and not cutting diagonally across the floor or traveling backwards, much less meandering willy nilly all over the place. And I've seen it IGNORED in far too many classes. I've also seen it rigorously enforced by an instructor.

If the teacher tells beginners its important, then the students will treat it as important. If they get constantly corrected in a class for ignoring proper floorcraft, then they will either get the point or they will go to an instructor who doesn't nag them about it so they can do whatever they want (thus no longer being a student of the teacher who emphasizes it)

So yes... I believe that the teacher can have enough influence in this one area to be an indicator of what the leader is getting taught by their instructor. If the person is doing complicated patterns without realizing how it affects others (or realizing but not knowing what to do about it) and moving against LOD, thats because they were TAUGHT that way. Few people can make up their own stuff until they are masters, so they're just practicing what they were shown.

Frankly, if you guys really think teachers have no influence at all in how students turn out, then why bother teaching or taking lessons? We might as well all just watch videos of stage performers..

Maybe the difference is that you guys are in London where classes might be much larger than what many of us experience (and therefore teachers have less ability to correct each individual) or maybe the whole scene in London is very different. Certainly you can't judge a teacher by ONE student, but you definitely see a pattern of behavior by observing the roster of students. And actually, the more crowded the class is, the more important the lesson in floorcraft is even within the class. The large class is an OPPORTUNITY to emphasize it, not an excuse for letting it slide!

[Zoopsia59]

the basic temperament of one who is considerate or inconsiderate will kick in once the music chimes and so the faults of the man mimicking a greyhound chasing a rabbit should not be put on the shoulders that taught him.

I respectfully disagree. It must be possible to teach proper floorcraft, because I never see at ballroom dances here the disregard for it that I see at Milongas. If ballroom dancers can learn and deal with it, then I don't think you can just blame people's temperament for the fact that some people meander. Its not like there are no prima donnas in ballroom.

If the pattern the student got taught traveled down line of dance, they'd be moving in line of dance. When they get taught patterns that meander with no explanation on how to do the sequence without violating LOD, then they violate LOD. Too many classes get taught using patterns that are only suitable to stage performing where interesting and balanced use of the entire space is not only justified, but required. If that's what a student got taught in a lesson, that's what you'll see him trying to do.

And as to temperament... I've danced with some lovely guys who were the nicest people in the world... and they had no idea how to navigate or make their dancing travel properly. Sure every teacher has a jackass here and there, but the habits of the BULK of the teacher's student roster IS an indication of what that teacher emphasizes as important.

But as I said in the post above... I'm not in a major metropolitan area like London... There are few if any advanced dancers here.. I'd say most are beginner to advanced-intermediate. (I inlcude myself) And we pretty much all know each other. There aren't the choices in milongas or the numbers of participants that you have, and even the most popular teacher still has a fraction of the number of students that a popular teacher in London would have.

[dchester]

Disagree. Floorcraft is told not taught = If a couple has paused in front of you, usually means there's a couple in front of them - so what do you? Common sense reaction: You don't barge pass them. Equally, if it's a crowded milonga do not treat the place like Catford Dog Track. Those that fail to adminsiter their basic Milonga-Mirror-Signal-Manouvre is down to temperment and not the teacher.

Proof: I was never told how to floor manage. I merely took a woman in my arms and "watched" the traffic. And so... I think this only proves that you figured it out without being taught. I can assure you that some teachers do teach floorcraft (now whether people choose to accept what they were taught, is another story).

Probably the best drill on floorcraft I've had, was one where we were told that for the next song, we only were allowed to do the 8CB. The only option we had was we could vary the timing on any of the steps (i.e. we could do some as quick steps, and we could pause as we saw fit). He stressed that he wanted us to do the backstep, but of course we needed to be certain that it was safe to take it. Of course he made sure that everyone was crammed in tight, to make it more difficult. It was a useful drill.

[Zoopsia59]

And not to mention the advanced followers, their killer heels, large boleos in a confined area. Yep, coming from the same school of thought as my man at the ATM. :bkick:

To me this is a contradiction.. a truly advanced follower wouldn't do a large boleo in a confined space, and a truly advanced leader wouldn't lead a reverse with such force that the follower needs to struggle to keep their leg low because of the torque.

But I agree with the :bkick:

[Zoopsia59]

I
Probably the best drill on floorcraft I've had, was one where we were told that for the next song, we only were allowed to do the 8CB. The only option we had was we could vary the timing on any of the steps (i.e. we could do some as quick steps, and we could pause as we saw fit). He stressed that he wanted us to do the backstep, but of course we needed to be certain that it was safe to take it. Of course he made sure that everyone was crammed in tight, to make it more difficult. It was a useful drill.

The best drill on it I've seen in a class was when the guest instructors blockaded the entire center of the room and left basically one lane open around the outside. They allowed the people to do anything they knew as long as their movement was either in place or along LOD. And they were only allowed to do something in place if there was no room for them to move forward.

People really hated that class because they realized that about the only thing most of them could do was walk. They didn't even know many circular moves to stay in place (astounding to me how few people here do Ocho Cortada) Few at that time had been taught a proper molinete', or if they had, they had rarely used it for some reason. And when they wanted to do back ochos, which is so many people's default step, they didn't know how to make them travel so they couldn't do them except when they were stuck in place.

Yep... it was quite the learning experience and might have made far too devastating an impact on people's egos. But it sure got the point across! (and then got ignored because people had gone too long ignoring it and it wasn't reinforced by other teachers who came in)

[bastet]

The best drill on it I've seen in a class was when the guest instructors blockaded the entire center of the room and left basically one lane open around the outside. They allowed the people to do anything they knew as long as their movement was either in place or along LOD. And they were only allowed to do something in place if there was no room for them to move forward.

People really hated that class because they realized that about the only thing most of them could do was walk. They didn't even know many circular moves to stay in place (astounding to me how few people here do Ocho Cortada) Few at that time had been taught a proper molinete', or if they had, they had rarely used it for some reason. And when they wanted to do back ochos, which is so many people's default step, they didn't know how to make them travel so they couldn't do them except when they were stuck in place.

Yep... it was quite the learning experience and might have made far too devastating an impact on people's egos. But it sure got the point across! (and then got ignored because people had gone too long ignoring it and it wasn't reinforced by other teachers who came in)

yeah- done that one (also when we first began and didn't know any in place stuff so it was quite frustrating). :D I think it's a good one for a pretty large class.

For smaller classes you can just take away their space and pack them like sardines in a corner, or make them dance in small circles on the floor (or hula-hoops) to enforce the use of circular movements.

I will say that it is entirely possible for beginners to learn at least basic floorcraft. The idea of not cutting across the floor and avoiding passing or tailgating isn't that hard a concept, and all the teacher has to do in a class setting is every now and then have the guys dance a song paying attention to who they are in front and back of and attempting to maintain the arrangements as they move along LOD. Do it a few times on a few different occasions and most guys (but certainly not all) will continue to employ the same basic idea at a milonga. It also helps if you give them some vocabulary that can easily stay in place so they have something to do besides rock-step-side over and over.

[Gssh]

So you are holding teachers responsible for students who dont bother to learn good floor craft? .

In my experience teachers play a crucial role in teaching floorcraft. A good teacher will teach floorcraft implicitly by mentioning how figures can be shortened and what figures work in tight spaces and which ones don't. In my first beginner class i learned:
1) the rockstep for buying time in a tight situations - it looks and feels much better than just standing there and waiting till the traffic has cleared.
2) every figure can and should be interrupted if there is no space - again, the rockstep is a great holding/transition pattern, gets you to a predictable base, allows you to pick up another figure easily, and can be done from anywhere.
3) if it is tight don't step anywhere you can't see (the right and back). turning with a few rocksteps is a good way to get a 360 view of what the situation is like.

Now that i have written this down it is pretty funny - basically my teacher said "if you are in trouble do rocksteps/weightshifts in place" over and over again - and that is still what i do.

Gssh

[bordertangoman]

In my experience teachers play a crucial role in teaching floorcraft. A good teacher will teach floorcraft implicitly by mentioning how figures can be shortened and what figures work in tight spaces and which ones don't. In my first beginner class i learned:
1) the rockstep for buying time in a tight situations - it looks and feels much better than just standing there and waiting till the traffic has cleared.
2) every figure can and should be interrupted if there is no space - again, the rockstep is a great holding/transition pattern, gets you to a predictable base, allows you to pick up another figure easily, and can be done from anywhere.
3) if it is tight don't step anywhere you can't see (the right and back). turning with a few rocksteps is a good way to get a 360 view of what the situation is like.

Now that i have written this down it is pretty funny - basically my teacher said "if you are in trouble do rocksteps/weightshifts in place" over and over again - and that is still what i do.

Gssh

I agree it should be taught but that doesn't guarantee people will use what you teach them.
I learnt from Rodolpho; he stuck a group of people in each corner of a room and you had to reach the diagonal opposite corner using only forward and side steps and you had to pass through chairs so you couldnt sneak round the outside. I taught people to do ocho cortados and rocking steps with rotation on the spot and they still wander all over the place. Mostly they're decent people and considerate of other dancers, but some skills still need developing.

[hbboogie1]

I respectfully disagree. It must be possible to teach proper floorcraft, because I never see at ballroom dances here the disregard for it that I see at Milongas. If ballroom dancers can learn and deal with it, then I don't think you can just blame people's temperament for the fact that some people meander. Its not like there are no prima donnas in ballroom.

If the pattern the student got taught traveled down line of dance, they'd be moving in line of dance. When they get taught patterns that meander with no explanation on how to do the sequence without violating LOD, then they violate LOD. Too many classes get taught using patterns that are only suitable to stage performing where interesting and balanced use of the entire space is not only justified, but required. If that's what a student got taught in a lesson, that's what you'll see him trying to do.

And as to temperament... I've danced with some lovely guys who were the nicest people in the world... and they had no idea how to navigate or make their dancing travel properly. Sure every teacher has a jackass here and there, but the habits of the BULK of the teacher's student roster IS an indication of what that teacher emphasizes as important.

But as I said in the post above... I'm not in a major metropolitan area like London... There are few if any advanced dancers here.. I'd say most are beginner to advanced-intermediate. (I inlcude myself) And we pretty much all know each other. There aren't the choices in milongas or the numbers of participants that you have, and even the most popular teacher still has a fraction of the number of students that a popular teacher in London would have.

Floor craft is a craft or a skill that is taught. The teachers cannot be responsible for the students not executing that skill. So let’s separate the teaching from the doing. I attend a milonga in SoCal where the teacher/organizer passes out a flyer with floor craft rules to each and every person entering the milonga.
Most of the crowd is pretty good but there’s always a few who don’t know were never taught didn’t take the time to read the flyer or they are just plain idiots. These are the ones who ruin it for the masses.
In BsAs those few are the ones that are ejected from the milongas.

PS..What ballroom dances are you attending? You have the same clowns in ballroom as you do in AT.
No respect for the floor.

[mshedgehog]

Last year I was thinking about this problem and tried putting together a "Beginners' Questionnaire (http://mshedgehog.blogspot.com/2008/10/beginners-questionnaire.html)" to help the totally clueless beginner with no idea what to expect, decide whether the class he or she had been to was going the right way or the wrong way overall.

The intent is at least somewhat humorous, but I was also trying to help by sticking to questions the beginner would really be able to answer about the class after taking it. The problem with trying to assess quality or outcomes more broadly is that the beginner generally isn't in a position to do that.

I think I might do a second edition with some "extra points" questions. Since writing that, I've encountered better quality teaching than I had before I wrote it, and my expectations of what's possible have risen.

If someone asks me personally for advice who to go to, I tend to talk about my experience of their results, since there are certainly broad differences there, big enough to distinguish the qualities of the teachers at least partly from the qualities of the students. Some teachers produce students who can dance, are nice to dance with, and improve over time, and others don't. But I also talk about their qualifications and quality of dancing and teaching, to the extent that I know anything about them.

The quality of dancing is important to me because I think one of the most important pieces of information the beginner needs (especially the women) is what tango is supposed to feel like. And a person who can't transmit that isn't well qualified to teach tango in a situation where someone who can is also available. Although they might perhaps be qualified to give other important information about it, such as on the subject of music or history or its relationship to other dances. Ideally, of course, the teacher should be able to do all those things: but that's rarely available.

[Zoopsia59]

Floor craft is a craft or a skill that is taught. The teachers cannot be responsible for the students not executing that skill. So let’s separate the teaching from the doing. I attend a milonga in SoCal where the teacher/organizer passes out a flyer with floor craft rules to each and every person entering the milonga.
Most of the crowd is pretty good but there’s always a few who don’t know were never taught didn’t take the time to read the flyer or they are just plain idiots. These are the ones who ruin it for the masses.
In BsAs those few are the ones that are ejected from the milongas.

PS..What ballroom dances are you attending? You have the same clowns in ballroom as you do in AT.
No respect for the floor.

I think you actually just made my argument for me ;). You refer to individuals who are badly behaved rather than whole groups all coming from a single instructor. I think I've stated several times that you can't look at ONE student of an instructor and determine much, but rather the general pattern of behavior of the bulk of their students. A teacher near here turned out a whole slew of people who ignored floorcraft and now that this particular teacher is no longer the main influence, the general floorcraft of dancers improved. Proof that the teacher has an effect.

BTW, it seems you are now reversing your argument since you were the one who posted this:
<<<You can also see certain basic fundamentals that were taught that other instructors seem to skip over. >>>

So do you think you can tell something about teachers from watching their students fundamentals? To me, not going backwards against the line of dance and not traveling diagonally across the floor are about as fundamental as you can get. Even when only walking, someone can master these basic concepts!

PS - We're 3000 miles apart.. what good would it be for me to tell you what ballroom dances I attend or for you to tell me how people dance in the ones here?

[bastet]

Floor craft is a craft or a skill that is taught. The teachers cannot be responsible for the students not executing that skill. So let’s separate the teaching from the doing. I attend a milonga in SoCal where the teacher/organizer passes out a flyer with floor craft rules to each and every person entering the milonga.
Most of the crowd is pretty good but there’s always a few who don’t know were never taught didn’t take the time to read the flyer or they are just plain idiots. These are the ones who ruin it for the masses.
In BsAs those few are the ones that are ejected from the milongas.

PS..What ballroom dances are you attending? You have the same clowns in ballroom as you do in AT.
No respect for the floor.


It really doesn't do people any good to hand them a set of rules at a milonga. Floorcraft is something they have to practice in a class setting, IMO, to make headway with it.

[Zoopsia59]

I agree it should be taught but that doesn't guarantee people will use what you teach them..

I agree that not ALL will use what you teach them, but if MOST don't, then I think there is a problem stemming from the teacher.

[Steve Pastor]

It really doesn't do people any good to hand them a set of rules at a milonga.

What it does do is establish the fact that the organizers take "floorcraft" and behaving appropriately on floor seriously.
I have yet to return to one of the Portland tango festivals because of really bad experiences with "floorcraft" combined with a perceived lack of response from the organizers.
And I'm not talking about yelling "He hit me," and expecting soemone to be tossed out. I'm talking about flyers, posted codes of behavior, having courses on "floorcraft" on the schedule, a revised page on web site, having the teachers mention it in all classes, etc.
They did eventually mount an effort to make things better. Meanwhile, I developed other things to do.

[Zoopsia59]

Last year I was thinking about this problem and tried putting together a "Beginners' Questionnaire (http://mshedgehog.blogspot.com/2008/10/beginners-questionnaire.html)" to help the totally clueless beginner with no idea what to expect,

WOW! great article! And lots of food for thought.

[Zoopsia59]

Bastet: It really doesn't do people any good to hand them a set of rules at a milonga.

Steve Pastor; What it does do is establish the fact that the organizers take "floorcraft" and behaving appropriately on floor seriously.

I think you're both right. Going to a milonga and reading the rules won't inform them of HOW. But if they haven't been told how in a class and they get to a milonga and get scolded or feel they don't know what to do, hopefully they will go back to their teacher and say "Hey! What gives? You didn't prepare me for THIS!"

And if they have gotten told and chose to ignore it, then having the milonga organizers back up the teacher's emphasis will make it more likely that people will comply. Especially if there are consequences (beyond getting glared at)

[hbboogie1]

It really doesn't do people any good to hand them a set of rules at a milonga. Floorcraft is something they have to practice in a class setting, IMO, to make headway with it.

If your not told what floor craft is how can you practice it?

[hbboogie1]

Bastet: It really doesn't do people any good to hand them a set of rules at a milonga.

Steve Pastor; What it does do is establish the fact that the organizers take "floorcraft" and behaving appropriately on floor seriously.

I think you're both right. Going to a milonga and reading the rules won't inform them of HOW. But if they haven't been told how in a class and they get to a milonga and get scolded or feel they don't know what to do, hopefully they will go back to their teacher and say "Hey! What gives? You didn't prepare me for THIS!"

And if they have gotten told and chose to ignore it, then having the milonga organizers back up the teacher's emphasis will make it more likely that people will comply. Especially if there are consequences (beyond getting glared at)

The consequence at her milonga is she will give you a warning and if the problem continues you’re asked to leave. If more organizers would do this milongas would be more enjoyable for the masses.

[hbboogie1]

I respectfully disagree. It must be possible to teach proper floorcraft, because I never see at ballroom dances here the disregard for it that I see at Milongas. If ballroom dancers can learn and deal with it, then I don't think you can just blame people's temperament for the fact that some people meander. Its not like there are no prima donnas in ballroom.

If the pattern the student got taught traveled down line of dance, they'd be moving in line of dance. When they get taught patterns that meander with no explanation on how to do the sequence without violating LOD, then they violate LOD. Too many classes get taught using patterns that are only suitable to stage performing where interesting and balanced use of the entire space is not only justified, but required. If that's what a student got taught in a lesson, that's what you'll see him trying to do.

And as to temperament... I've danced with some lovely guys who were the nicest people in the world... and they had no idea how to navigate or make their dancing travel properly. Sure every teacher has a jackass here and there, but the habits of the BULK of the teacher's student roster IS an indication of what that teacher emphasizes as important.

But as I said in the post above... I'm not in a major metropolitan area like London... There are few if any advanced dancers here.. I'd say most are beginner to advanced-intermediate. (I inlcude myself) And we pretty much all know each other. There aren't the choices in milongas or the numbers of participants that you have, and even the most popular teacher still has a fraction of the number of students that a popular teacher in London would have.

My point is floor craft needs to be explained to new dancers. Teach it hand out flyers have them google it just give them the information.
Heather said:
Proof: I was never told how to floor manage. I merely took a woman in my arms and "watched" the traffic.
Question”””Heather are you a woman that leads? How did you figure out all that floor craft encompasses just by “watching the traffic”
I’m curious how do you enter the line of dance in the middle of a song?

[bastet]

Bastet: It really doesn't do people any good to hand them a set of rules at a milonga.

Steve Pastor; What it does do is establish the fact that the organizers take "floorcraft" and behaving appropriately on floor seriously.

I think you're both right. Going to a milonga and reading the rules won't inform them of HOW. But if they haven't been told how in a class and they get to a milonga and get scolded or feel they don't know what to do, hopefully they will go back to their teacher and say "Hey! What gives? You didn't prepare me for THIS!"

And if they have gotten told and chose to ignore it, then having the milonga organizers back up the teacher's emphasis will make it more likely that people will comply. Especially if there are consequences (beyond getting glared at)

I can certainly understand that point of view, having the organizers treat it as an important issue is also relevant. But this is also assuming people will read a handout.

UNfortuantely, it's been my expreience that most people are going to stuff handouts in to their shoebag or the trash bin rather than look at them at a milonga (because we've tried that). The classroom is where they actually will get the knowhow to handle the dancefloor from the teacher making them practice it (because we've seen this approach work).

[Heather2007]

But as I said in the post above... I'm not in a major metropolitan area like London... There are few if any advanced dancers here.. I'd say most are beginner to advanced-intermediate. (I inlcude myself) And we pretty much all know each other. There aren't the choices in milongas or the numbers of participants that you have, and even the most popular teacher still has a fraction of the number of students that a popular teacher in London would have.

True. I can only speak for those here in London. Zoops, this town is ruder then rude itself. Trust me. And so, lift that rudeness off the tarmac and shove it inside a milonga the attitude will remain the same - no matter what teacher told them re. staying in the line of dance, not doing big show dance moves in a crowded space, no pushing, no barging etc. Doubtless that attitude would considered alien in, say, a small country town or village.

[Zoopsia59]

I can certainly understand that point of view, having the organizers treat it as an important issue is also relevant. But this is also assuming people will read a handout.

UNfortuantely, it's been my expreience that most people are going to stuff handouts in to their shoebag or the trash bin rather than look at them at a milonga (because we've tried that). The classroom is where they actually will get the knowhow to handle the dancefloor from the teacher making them practice it (because we've seen this approach work).

Well, the organizers can't stop at handing out the flyer.. they have to ENFORCE what they put in the flyer. And I agree (as I said in a post above) that the milonga is not the place to be introduced to the concept of floorcraft for the first time, although for some unfortunate people, it is.

It really doesn't matter what people do with the flyer (read it, stuff it) if the organizers enforce what's in it. The handout is just to cover the butts of the rganizers so when people argue about being reprimanded, the official can respond... "Hey, it was all in that flyer we handed you when you came in.. did you read it?" THe offending dancer can't reallty claim he didn't know that there were rules. (and as I said earlier.. if they dont' know HOW to follow the rules, they can say that to the organizer and maybe the organizer will point them in the right direction for instruction, or they will go back to their teacher and say "*** man! I have been taken lessons from you for x, and I went to a milonga and wasn't allowed to dance!"

The biggest problems seem to occur when the teacher(s) who don't give any attention to floorcraft is also the organizer(s) of the milongas.

[Zoopsia59]

True. I can only speak for those here in London. Zoops, this town is ruder then rude itself.

The English? Rude? Seriously? I thought the British had this reputation/stereotype for always being proper. How is being rude proper?

[Heather2007]

The English? Rude? Seriously? I thought the British had this reputation/stereotype for always being proper. How is being rude proper?

Oh, the English (at least the majority that is) are fine. The Londoners however (and here I point out those that come in and not those of an age that were born in)...erm..nah!

[mshedgehog]

True. I can only speak for those here in London. Zoops, this town is ruder then rude itself. Trust me.

However, Londoners generally do, for example, stand on the right and walk on the left of the escalators. And just try not respecting the codigos of the queue in Dorothy Perkins; accidental infringements quite often do result in a very dirty look, an apology, or both.

What I mean is, local custom is a necessary part of people learning what's normal behaviour; I think floorcraft is rubbish not because the people are intrinsically rude but because there isn't enough real consensus about what the applicable customs and techniques are. Too many people and not enough Clue. The bloke I saw reverse, hard, into two couples at once at Corrientes (I was seriously quite impressed), is Russian. Russians generally, though - at least as polite as anyone else.

If I hadn't ever seen the kind of queue before that forms spontaneously as one queue for 3 cash machines, people peeling off as each becomes available - I might make the mistake of butting in, once. But every newcomer rapidly learns this 'cause everybody else knows how to do it and they can see how it works. But if you and I and a couple of friends tried to start a queue like that in New York it probably wouldn't work, even though it means everybody gets served faster.

[hbboogie1]

Well, the organizers can't stop at handing out the flyer.. they have to ENFORCE what they put in the flyer. And I agree (as I said in a post above) that the milonga is not the place to be introduced to the concept of floorcraft for the first time, although for some unfortunate people, it is.

It really doesn't matter what people do with the flyer (read it, stuff it) if the organizers enforce what's in it. The handout is just to cover the butts of the rganizers so when people argue about being reprimanded, the official can respond... "Hey, it was all in that flyer we handed you when you came in.. did you read it?" THe offending dancer can't reallty claim he didn't know that there were rules. (and as I said earlier.. if they dont' know HOW to follow the rules, they can say that to the organizer and maybe the organizer will point them in the right direction for instruction, or they will go back to their teacher and say "*** man! I have been taken lessons from you for x, and I went to a milonga and wasn't allowed to dance!"

The biggest problems seem to occur when the teacher(s) who don't give any attention to floorcraft is also the organizer(s) of the milongas.

In BsAs it’s assumed one knows the rules when entering a milonga. In most cases if you don’t follow the rules you’re shown the door. In the USA if we required everyone to follow the rules there’d be no one left to dance with. I guess our rule is there are no rules.
From reading the posts about London it sounds like you also have no enforceable rules so next week I’ll feel right at home.

[Zoopsia59]

[/i]
In BsAs it’s assumed one knows the rules when entering a milonga. In most cases if you don’t follow the rules you’re shown the door. In the USA if we required everyone to follow the rules there’d be no one left to dance with. I guess our rule is there are no rules.
From reading the posts about London it sounds like you also have no enforceable rules so next week I’ll feel right at home.

In BA everyone seems to follow the rules which proves that floorcraft can be emphasized enough that people learn it. And you're right in that there are consequences for not following them. Perhaps where you are in CA, the milongas would be empty if rules were enforced, but that's not true everywhere. The people here who grossly violate any kind of floorcraft are doing moves they got taught in the classes they took. If they had been taught differently, they would probably dance differently. And there are no consequenses for what they do, not even a shortage of partners since there are so many followers and so few leaders, so there's no incentive for them to change.

Interestingly, when my partner first went to BA, he said he took some lessons there (had had very little Arg Tango prior) and got shown all the "tango-for-export" steps. When he went to a milonga, he had no idea how to adapt (but at least he recognized that he needed to!) or how to dance in them. Many of the tango teachers even in BA teach fancy stuff and no social dance skills.. at least to tourists.

Then he got some instruction from the older milongueros (met Tete' and some others) did alot of observing, and also applied floorcraft he knew from ballroom and had more success on subsequent trips. It was during the time period that Daniel Trenner was beginning to really explore the purely social tango techniques touring with Rebecca Shulman and he took from them too when he got back to the states.

It seems even in BA, you have to really search for instruction in traditional social dancing.

[Heather2007]

However, Londoners generally do, for example, stand on the right and walk on the left of the escalators..

But if you and I and a couple of friends tried to start a queue like that in New York it probably wouldn't work, even though it means everybody gets served faster.

Standing on the wrong side of the escalators isn't bracketed as bad manners. Pushing in, shoving people aside, the words "sorry" "thank you" excuse me" being treated as acid on the tongue if uttered. That free for all, me-first, me-first that has arrived at these shores quicker than the H1N1 virus is killing Londoners. And now you put that "I'm alright Jack" sewer mentality into a milonga? Believe you me - it ain't good. I have witnessed some seriously questionable behaviour in milongas and reducing your follower to tears is never a good thing. And that, my friend, has nowt to do with the teacher.

[Joe]

Really? I would have thought Britishers would stand on the left and walk on the right.

[bordertangoman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrZmbiFDPv4

other ways of going down escalators

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFqQOlYE4EE

[Heather2007]

Really? I would have thought Britishers would stand on the left and walk on the right.

Well, I guess it depends on from where one's standing. At the top or at the bottom :rolleyes:

[Joe]

Unless you are facing backwards, it doesn't matter.

[jantango]

In BA everyone seems to follow the rules which proves that floorcraft can be emphasized enough that people learn it. And you're right in that there are consequences for not following them. Perhaps where you are in CA, the milongas would be empty if rules were enforced, but that's not true everywhere. The people here who grossly violate any kind of floorcraft are doing moves they got taught in the classes they took. If they had been taught differently, they would probably dance differently. And there are no consequenses for what they do, not even a shortage of partners since there are so many followers and so few leaders, so there's no incentive for them to change.

Interestingly, when my partner first went to BA, he said he took some lessons there (had had very little Arg Tango prior) and got shown all the "tango-for-export" steps. When he went to a milonga, he had no idea how to adapt (but at least he recognized that he needed to!) or how to dance in them. Many of the tango teachers even in BA teach fancy stuff and no social dance skills.. at least to tourists.

Then he got some instruction from the older milongueros (met Tete' and some others) did alot of observing, and also applied floorcraft he knew from ballroom and had more success on subsequent trips. It was during the time period that Daniel Trenner was beginning to really explore the purely social tango techniques touring with Rebecca Shulman and he took from them too when he got back to the states.

It seems even in BA, you have to really search for instruction in traditional social dancing.

If dance floor rules were enforced at tango dances in the USA, the dancing would improve. Ballroom dancers know the rules, but for some reason, tango instruction rarely includes them. The studio has lots of open space during classes so learning to dance compactly on a crowded floor isn't the standard.

Those who make a living at teaching tango in Buenos Aires rarely set foot in a milonga. And if they do, it is to dance with their partner. They don't know how to use the cabeceo or improvise. They are teaching memorized patterns that don't produce good social dancers.

If one wants to become a professional dancer for stage, go to classes with teachers who began their careers on stage. That's what they know. They don't go to the milongas. They spend all their time teaching choreography.

If one wants to learn to become a good social dancer, study with someone who is dancing every day in the milongas. That's what they know.

[Joe]

good dancer != good teacher

[Zoopsia59]

good dancer != good teacher

And now that we've gone full circle in this discussion.....

[Joe]

We can once again state that "when in Rome..."

[pygmalion]

Thanks, everyone. I did read the whole thread. I appreciate the advice.

A couple impressions (having come from the ballroom/studio world.)

1. Social dance is totally different, when you're looking for instruction.

And 2. There's no real easy way to find a good instructor, but going to a dance ans watching people dance sounds like my best bet, in the absence of objective input from somebody in the know.

[newbie]

I did read the whole thread.

And it took you two years?

[pygmalion]

Yep. :wink: