Why do people critique and boss me in West Coast?

[Me]

Okay, hopefully this thread will be exploratory and not inflammatory.

I will speak from personal experience, and hopefully it won't upset too many people. My honest experience... Of all partner dances I have participated in, WC swing is by far the least enjoyable social dance experience for me.

For whatever reason, there are leads who think it is their duty to immediately launch into criticism of my swing. Immediately as in the following scenario: walk walk, triple, triple<----- You need to coaster/You need to anchor/I don't like the way you are anchoring/You should anchor on your front foot/You should anchor on your back foot/You need to bend both knees there/I just went to a workshop where they.../ETC.

I shift to whatever their preference is so they'll shut up and dance but no, that isn't the end of the fun. The real fun begins when they decide to "lead" me through some stupid trick or pattern that I miss because they didn't lead it, so now they're going to spend the rest of the dance "teaching" it to me.

This behavior completely ruins the dance for me.

What I seek to learn is why this happens, constantly, in WC Swing. I do not have to put up with this sort of mess in most other dances. Is this just a part of WC swing?

[Larinda McRaven]

Happens to me too... when I go WCS dancing. Lots of people will start to lead me and then say "ooew, a ballroom dancer..." with a disdainful look.

And it all the same critiques... my coaster is all wrong, my anchor is not right, my connection is too connected, I follow too easy (?), I should face them on a side pass, I should not face them on a side pass, I spin too quick, I should to tap not triple.... I don't take it personally anymore, I just assume they are a very verbose bunch who have a very specific idea of what they want WCS to look and feel like.

My knowledge of WCS is a mix from Ballroom, CW, and Swing people... and they are ALL VERY DIFFERENT, none of them right and none of them wrong, just very different. And I don't always keep it straight which group of people I am in the company of and I simply do whatever of the techniques I feel easiest to resond to a lead with, which may or may not be the appropriate technique for that crowd of people.

I don't woirry about it anymore. I just let them talk and I smile and dance, and say "thank you!" when it is over.

[Steve Pastor]

I just assume they are a very verbose bunch who have a very spefic idea of what they want WCS to look and feel like.
My knowledge of WCS is a mix from Ballroom, CW, and Swing people...WCS aka Western Swing was first documented by the Lauré Haile, Arthur Murray
National Dance Director, Lauré Haile, an accomplished and dancer who knew music and wrote about it. Before this, it's all sort of hearsay and "oral history" as to where it came from. All of the music Haile listed to practice to was Big Band stuff.
So, WCS, as far as we can tell from the written record, WAS a Ballroom dance when it stated out.
We can see what looks like WCS in Bakersfield, CA "circa" 1950s. with people dancing to what has to be "Western" band. So, people may have done the dance to "country" in the early days. But it didn't make "mainstream" country until the 80s, or so. (I should look that up again.
As far a Swing people, WCS people? or Lindy swing people or????
(I wonder if there was a separate style that was danced exclusively as that style in the 40s or even early 50s. Haile uses words like NEVER and ALWAYS in her description.)

WCS rivals Argentine Tango in the current emphasis on "freedom", interpretation, and an equal partnership. In other words, it's complicated like that.
Unlike AT, however, there are no practicas. (I like to say that any night out at the Country Western place, especially Saturday, is practica night.)

Given the clear distinction that is made in AT, the milonga is for dance...period; the practica is for "practicing" and exchange of information, if you wish; and the lack of that distinction in other venuses, I can see why WCS "leaders" find it hard to keep their comments to themselves.

It's kind of funny, though, but maybe indicative...
At a "swango" lesson I took recently, the male teacher made a big deal about the fact that he had to "be the man" and "Lead" in Argentine Tango.
I found it rather humorous, but, I think it does point up the fact that people who teach WCS, and probably the entire community, is confused about the nature of the dance and the lead / follow dynamic.

I got comments in a lesson I took a couple? of years ago (Skippy Blair was in town and I wanted to check her out!) such as "I don't like you pulling me."
Well, if you don't like being led, why are you trying to do a partner dance?
(Just like AT, resistance/pressure, etc, can be highly variable.)

And, just like AT, a lot of what you hear is often misinformation from an incomplete understanding of the dance, or a conviction that the way they learned is the correct way, as Larinda writes (although Skippy Blair for one says the exact opposite of that).
Still, there are many voices out there.
(Even by 1971 there were notable differences between the two written descriptions of the dance I could find up until that date.)

So there you go. It's a lot like AT in being complicated, but there are no rules telling people that they should shut up if it's not a practice session.

[wooh]

My knowledge of WCS is a mix from Ballroom, CW, and Swing people... and they are ALL VERY DIFFERENT, none of them right and none of them wrong, just very different.

This may very likely be the underlying issue. Even over the years, WCS has become very different from what it used to be. So everyone has their idea of how it should be done.
As for the constant critique you experience? That just seems annoying. I'd be tempted to do some creative knee styling. :evil:

[Larinda McRaven]

Yes, every sub-group has their own interpretation, and so I understand their critiques to be more about "When in Rome...."

But I think what Me is frustrated by (and what I sometimes wonder about) is "why the constant nagging?".... It is far more constant than I have ever encountered in the ballroom world, or CW, or AT world.

And so again just based on that experience I tend to assume it a cultural norm for that group.

[Spitfire]

Okay, hopefully this thread will be exploratory and not inflammatory.

I will speak from personal experience, and hopefully it won't upset too many people. My honest experience... Of all partner dances I have participated in, WC swing is by far the least enjoyable social dance experience for me.

For whatever reason, there are leads who think it is their duty to immediately launch into criticism of my swing. Immediately as in the following scenario: walk walk, triple, triple<----- You need to coaster/You need to anchor/I don't like the way you are anchoring/You should anchor on your front foot/You should anchor on your back foot/You need to bend both knees there/I just went to a workshop where they.../ETC.

I shift to whatever their preference is so they'll shut up and dance but no, that isn't the end of the fun. The real fun begins when they decide to "lead" me through some stupid trick or pattern that I miss because they didn't lead it, so now they're going to spend the rest of the dance "teaching" it to me.

This behavior completely ruins the dance for me.

What I seek to learn is why this happens, constantly, in WC Swing. I do not have to put up with this sort of mess in most other dances. Is this just a part of WC swing?

Happens to me too... when I go WCS dancing. Lots of people will start to lead me and then say "ooew, a ballroom dancer..." with a disdainful look.

And it all the same critiques... my coaster is all wrong, my anchor is not right, my connection is too connected, I follow too easy (?), I should face them on a side pass, I should not face them on a side pass, I spin too quick....

I don't take it personally anymore, I just assume they are a very verbose bunch who have a very specific idea of what they want WCS to look and feel like.

My knowledge of WCS is a mix from Ballroom, CW, and Swing people... and they are ALL VERY DIFFERENT, none of them right and none of them wrong, just very different. And I don't always keep it straight which group of people I am in the company of and I simply do whatever of the techniques I feel easiest to resond to a lead with, which may or may not be the appropriate technique for that crowd of people.

I don't woirry about it anymore. I just let them talk and I smile and dance, and say "thank you!" when it is over.

Sorry that both of you ladies have had such experiences. I haven't heard of this happening at the WCS venues I generally attend and haven't had it happen to me myself from any follows. I just let them dance and adapt accordingly and still I can have great fun with things. These guys that you both refer to, are they at a more advanced level? You'd think that they would be able to do the same.

[blink]

OMG, this is so totally true. A group of my friends feel exactly the same way. It happens ALL THE TIME. I have taken group and privates for years and I still get this from many of the leads. It is a major problem. I am not sure why this, maybe for some of the reasons mentioned already, but it is very common and very real.

Every dance has its issues but for WCS this is definitely one of the major ones. Freaky.

[Me]

Thank you, Larinda. I feel so much better now, lol! Silly how you feel better when somebody else understands your own frustration, even though it means they have gone through it, too. Seriously though, you describe exactly the type of situations I keep running into.

Wooh, evil suggestion about the innovative knee styling. I like it! :twisted:

Steve you touch on some interesting points. Yes, I have been told that WC allows for much freestyle, so long as it does not disrupt the dance or take options away from the lead (though some people seem to think it can be fun for the lady to hijack now and then). Yet for something that is supposed to be freestyle, I sure do have a lot of men telling me how to dance. That is a contradiction that I do not understand. I don't mind it if the lead shouts out, "Okay, here comes a free spin!" That can be fun. What I detest is, "Alright now, I'm going to set you up for a spin, and I want you [blah blah blah]."

You also point out that there are no clear practica rules for WC swing. That I am willing to go with... but there are some things I don't quite understand. Maybe things are different in swing, but it is my understanding in general that it is rude to instruct or critique other dancers, even in a classroom setting. It seems there are so many more people offering unwanted criticism during social dances that it makes me wonder if the "rules of conduct" I suppose I can call them, are different for swing? I mean these guys spend so much time talking about what should/should not be done.

Spitfire, it really doesn't seem to matter what the level of the lead is. Most seem to believe they must "fix" me the minute I do something differently from what they know or prefer. When I am with the more advanced dancers, unless they have taught me in the past, many of them will not instruct me or critique me while we dance, but still there are those that do, and again, it seems to be more of this in WC than in other dances. It really seems like a fun dance and I enjoy the range of music. I really want to dance this, however, the instruction and criticism that seems to come with it is a very strong deterrent.

Welcome to the DF blink! So, you are having the same issue that I am. How many of your friends are leads? Do they complain of the follows in WC bossing them? I've had a couple of gentlemen complain to me about bossy women in WC.

[Chris Stratton]

I wonder if the WCS guys are having worse luck at non-verbal communication than those you dance with in other partner dances, or if it's that the result of the communication problems in WCS are verbal complaints and those offend you more than silent but physical manifestations of problems in other dancers?

[blink]

Hi Me,

I have been here for a long time, just don't post much.

Again, all dances have their issues. I have been dancing for years and years.

My friends in WCS are almost all females follows. Most have been turned off by WCS by the lead chatter we are discussing. Most of it is inappropriate (social dance is not the time for instruction) and incorrect. I have been doing WCS for years, privates, group and a few competitions, and I have at least a basic to good understanding of the dance.

I still try to go out to dance WCS. I do my best to ignore the "chatter." But I often opt out and do other dances. Again, all dances have their issues, but it is really hard to ignore someone when they are talking down to you while you are dancing. And often times these leads won't take a hint and won't stop the chatter. There are plenty of things I could say directly but most of it would be rude (at least in my mind) so why say anything?

I feel like it is a control issue but that is a subjective opinion. But it is a real problem. And it is nice to see it being discussed here. I really do like WCS and it is sad to steer away from it because of this. And it isn't just me but a lot of my other dance females friends.

Again, I DO like WCS.

[kayak]

Do you think the guys are really nagging or more likely inviting you to join in a discussion? There seems to be more of a misinterpretation of the intent than a secret confederation of bad leaders. The interesting thing with WCS is almost nothing is mirrored. Even a simple sugar push has each person doing two very different techniques and needing to know their own part. So if the lady doesn't do her part as the guy expects, the whole dance starts to break down. Granted, a good leader should be able to follow the follower, but that ability takes a while to build.

The same is true of the followers. To be able to free form, most ladies need to be in specific patterns or places. So they are pretty demanding that their leaders get them to the right spot. Eventually, ladies have a huge toolchest and can fill in something cool in most spots. Again, that takes a while.

So it seems to me like each person having such different rolls with almost no mirroring makes communication in WCS such a challenge. That is why westies spend so much more energy focused on connection than most other dances. If the connection is struggling, verbalizing is the next best option isn't it? Then, we just try to find dancers whose communication style match up with our own.

[tsb]

i like steve's observation about the distinction of practica and milonga in AT.

This situation reminds me of why rotating partners in class helps us have a more realistic view of ourselves - if a figure works with everyone except one partner, the odds are good that it's the one partner. Sometimes you are part of the rest of the class, sometimes you are the one partner. Certainly, there's no point in personalizing bad behavior if it is directed at everyone impartially, OTOH, if these guys are not acting in a manner i would consider boorish with any other follows the entire evening....

[tsb]

Again, I DO like WCS.

someone i consider a dance godmother of sorts once made the observation that she loves WCS, she just doesn't like most of the people who dance it. i've adopted the same perspective myself. but i've also learned that EVERY genre has its idiosyncrasies & biases, yet believes that *their* genre does not have any.

[tsb]

Do you think the guys are really nagging or more likely inviting you to join in a discussion? There seems to be more of a misinterpretation of the intent than a secret confederation of bad leaders. The interesting thing with WCS is almost nothing is mirrored. Even a simple sugar push has each person doing two very different techniques and needing to know their own part. So if the lady doesn't do her part as the guy expects, the whole dance starts to break down. Granted, a good leader should be able to follow the follower, but that ability takes a while to build.

The same is true of the followers. To be able to free form, most ladies need to be in specific patterns or places. So they are pretty demanding that their leaders get them to the right spot. Eventually, ladies have a huge toolchest and can fill in something cool in most spots. Again, that takes a while.

just go to youtube and look for WCS advanced jack & jill, particularly swingdiego results and you'll get unchoreographed WCS that illustrates this.


So it seems to me like each person having such different rolls with almost no mirroring makes communication in WCS such a challenge. That is why westies spend so much more energy focused on connection than most other dances. If the connection is struggling, verbalizing is the next best option isn't it? Then, we just try to find dancers whose communication style match up with our own.

yeah. there are some less experienced follows i would prefer dancing with because i feel more comfortable with the level of the connection between us, which for some reason is not present with certain more experienced follows. but it just is what it is.

[Larinda McRaven]

Like I said, it is almost always prefaced by a "ballroom" comment. I get it that in ballroom studios WC is often taught and danced very unmusicaly, but come on... I am not unmusical, and I can follow just about anybody, doing anything, anytime. So to pick on me and say "We don't do a tap there, we do a triple step." is just being petty. I can pretty much riverdance my feet and a lead would never feel a change of rhythm in my connection if I didn't want him to... so whats the big deal? Except that I feel "different", choice in pattern or connection may be theoretically correct and workable, just very unexpected for the norms of that group.


Funny Story**
I took a few lessons with a really big name Westie, just to see whats up. After first criticizing all of the "junk ballroom music" I had, (which a great amount of it I had Shazamed from local WCS dances) he danced with me for a minute and then prceeded to say something like "Well this is just horrible, you have to forget everything you know and we have to start from scratch". I said "Ok, lets go, tell me what I am doing wrong!"

He taught me 5 different directions to do my anchor step.

For two hours.

At one point he increased the weight of his connection. So I increased my weight in response. He got heavier again. So did I. He got heavier still, and so did I. Eventually he stopped and said "See, the heavier you dance the worse it gets. We never dance that heavy because you think it makes you dance bigger, but really your steps just got shorter." I was like WHAT are you talking about? I only ponied up and followed what I was given, how am I wrong? And what kind of non-technical excuse of an answer was that?

And then he showed me another anchor step for the last hour.

So now I get it. I can freeform all I want, but I only have 6 anchors to pick from. :)

[Larinda McRaven]

Sorry that both of you ladies have had such experiences. I haven't heard of this happening at the WCS venues I generally attend and haven't had it happen to me myself from any follows. I just let them dance and adapt accordingly and still I can have great fun with things. These guys that you both refer to, are they at a more advanced level? You'd think that they would be able to do the same.

I am glad to hear this. Perhaps it is just the specific crowd that I encounter. And I think for me it comes more from the intermediate guys. The more beginner ones are just happy someone is following their blunders. The advanced ones don't say anything, but they don't come back either. The intermediate ones nag non-stop. But that I think it rather true of any style of dance, even ballroom. It is just the AMOUNT of nagging that happens that is astounding.

And I have an extrememly good friend who does CW. Retired Masters competitor and now judge. When I have gone dancing with him at the CW bars in his town he is continually feeding me information. But he is a dear dear friend and I would never take offense at him trying to help me "fit in" to his world. I absorb as much as I can from him as he very discreetly corrects me. So then I try to take this attitude with me to the Westies dances. I just pretend as if they are a good friend trying to help me fit in.... a lot. And it would be my own perception of whether this person is helping or nagging...

[etp777]

Finally, a venue where the guys are in charge and free to nag, unlike everywhere lese in world where women run the show. ;)

[Flat Shoes]

In the Lindy community, one thing that is stressed is that teaching during social dancing is bad etiquette. I find it strange that it is not the same way in WCS too?

Maybe the community has just become too professional, with studios and more formalized teaching methods with stronger focus on the correct way of doing things like patterns? I'm just asking, because I don't know the community. But this could explain why more people feel that they need to correct things that they believe is the wrong way of doing things?

My philosophy is that anything goes, as long as there is good connection and good communication. And communication is at least 50% personal communication, looks, smiles, flirting, body language, encouraging etc.

Somebody said in a different thread that she didn't think of swing as a flirty dance. It definitely can be!

In a social setting the focus should always be on having fun. Not on dancing correctly. It doesn't matter if you are doing things wrong, as long as you have a good time together.

Of course it is even better when the technique works well too. But I find from experience that in order to have a "technically good" dance, you need the personal connection/chemistry as well. If not the feel and flow will be missing, and the dance will feel bland whatever you do.

[Steve Pastor]

"Experts" abound, but there is no real unifying body to specify right and wrong.
If fact, the opposite is true.
Experts, or just teachers if you want, teach cool stuff. People, probably mostly men, learn these cool moves in classes. BUT, what they don't learn is how to lead the thing when they are dancing with someone who didn't learn the same pattern they did. They only thing they have at that point is trying to talk you through the thing.

This is why I stopped taking WCS lessons. I'd be show a move, we'd do it a few times. Then we'd add something else to the first move. But most of what I ws learning would never quite work after the lesson was over.
Years later I dropped into a place here called "The Spare Room", which ws part of a bowling alley at one time, which is the haunt of a friend of mine from work. SO, we are shown this cool WCS move. After a while I asked, rather impertinently, how we led this move. I already knew the answer, "You just have to know it".
Fun lesson, but it was thrown out as soon as I left there, because I'm a social dancers and if I can't figure out how to lead it, it's worthless to me.
I COULD have tried to coach people through it, but years of dancing socially have taught me a thing or two.
(If I "coach" at all it's about very basic things like keeping a tight axis, staying in the slot, having that "away resistance" anchor - how much is highly variable, and how to listen to the music. The music part is so obvious, but so overlooked.)

It wasn't until I started taking Argentine Tango that I really started to learn the mechanics of how things work. Taking that same sense of - again let's call it - body mechanics into West Coast Swing was a no brainer for me.

Maybe it would help to quote Skippy Blair to these guys, who I like to tell people has been teaching West Coast Swing since before it was called West Coast Swing,
"The only problem that exists in SWING is when someone decides there is only ONE WAY to dance it. There is never only ONE WAY to do anything ..."
And for my money, Blair has some of the best analysis of our social dance that I have seen.
(and much of her Dance Terminology Notebook is available on line)

[kayak]

The intermediate ones nag non-stop. But that I think it rather true of any style of dance, even ballroom. It is just the AMOUNT of nagging that happens that is astounding.

Isn't this the crux of the complaints? The beginners have to learn about staying in the slot, railroad tracks, hot dogs and buns and other fun stuff like that. The end target is the slot morphs into an hourglass shape. In between, there is a really hard learning curve.

So yes, the beginner is just thrilled you followed anything. The pro can follow the follower. Everything in the intermediate's world breaks down for a while as the pattern complexity increases.

The difference between a great instructor and a lousy one is how many of their students make that transition.

[kayak]

In the Lindy community, one thing that is stressed is that teaching during social dancing is bad etiquette. I find it strange that it is not the same way in WCS too?

It might be associated with specific communities? Most of the westies around me are pretty nice and encouraging. Our tango world is a pretty closed community and a lot of the really advanced ballroom dancers don't bother mingling with mortals. Other than that, everyone just goes and has fun.

[Flat Shoes]

Steve, I really think I should look up some of that Skippy Blair stuff, even though I'm not a westie.

When it comes to classes, learning moves can be fun, and inspirational. The best classes are when the moves at the same times are demonstrating some technique. And learning this technique can be used in other places too, and thus opens up new possibilities in the dance in general.

Just teaching technique can seem boring. And I understand well teachers who feel that they need to throw in some fancy patterns to make a fun class.

But when they do, they should know and be able to teach the mechanics to anyone asking.

[Steve Pastor]

Just to make it easy...
http://www.wcs-dancer.com/SkippyBlairDanceDictionary.html

She's had about 55 years to work on this stuff, think about it, get feed back, see what works, etc. And, this doesn't count the time before she decided to teach. (She danced as a youngster, too.)

I've been able to find two, three, four? of her books in libraries. There are tapes, dvds, etc., which, at least here in the states can be viewed through library loans. (I am SO glad I never voted against library taxes even through I didn't use them for decades.) It's great that she gave permission to have that stuff available on line.

And she's still teaching!

[Spitfire]

Other than that, everyone just goes and has fun.

And when at a dance isn't this what it's all about? It's social dancing and that's the point so why be so picky and sweat what's "right" or "not right". Just have a good time; that's what matters.

[Larinda McRaven]

one would assume...

[Spitfire]

I'm reminded of last Saturday when I was at a USADance party and one of the people I know who is a Lindy dancer branched out to WCS came by. Now, this is not meant as a snub towards Lindy dancers, but he tells me of this newer local group who has been making comments about going to the local WCS club and teaching them how to dance correctly. When he heard this he explained to them they have no idea what they are talking about, guess this is a group that doesn't want to realize that WCS is a different dance from what they are doing and of course taught differently.

[j_alexandra]

Steve, I really think I should look up some of that Skippy Blair stuff, even though I'm not a westie.


I found Skippy Blair online when I was first starting to dance, and she's Definitely one of my dance gods. She has *great* info and a wonderful way of looking at it, and she's so sane, and she's so musical. And so much of what she teaches translates to other partner dance disciplines, it's well worth taking a look at her site.

WCS started me dancing, but I was so put off by the very attitude I'm reading from Me, Larinda et al, that I dropped it altogether. Incredible but true: the ballroom leaders at socials who blame me for every error -- out loud, not just with body language -- aren't as rude as the wcs leaders.

BTW, it's not that ballroom people "come down from on high" and condescend to do wcs. Many of us like it a lot. But if the wcs culture is annoying Larinda (a shining example of sanity and good humor, and, I'm told, a wicked good follower) then hey, I'll sit it out.

FWIW, I'm glad to find it wasn't just me. I've felt like a westie failure for years; now I know it's part of the culture.

[blink]

Finally, a venue where the guys are in charge and free to nag, unlike everywhere lese in world where women run the show. ;)

Not sure if this is exactly true but it certainly made me laugh!! There must be some truth to it then, huh!

I really don't think it has anything to do with connection, level or anything dance related. Really. I live in LA and spent a lot of time at Skippy's old dance studio, used to see and say hi to her all the time. Been to many of the classic WCS dance spots, plus some of the traditional weekend events-actually for years. Blah, blah, blah.....you know the story, I dance it.

Again, all dances have their issues BUT there is something about being spoken down to during a social dance that really grates. Especially if I know I have a decent understanding of the lead and follow in the dance. And if I have the feeling that the lead really is off in his remarks.

My problem is that I always consider someone else' remarks and ponder whether they are right or not. A good thing I think in most cases. But this is ridiculous.

I went to one event where I was getting some of this weird feedback and was feeling a bit down. Then a pro came up and asked me to dance. He was like, WTH, why aren't you dancing more, your great. I didn't tell him that I was feakin sick of the leads gibber jabber. I just smiled and said thank you and left.

Maybe in LA people have a tendency to think that they are all that and a bag of chips. So they decide to spread their special dance gift to all, even while social dancing. I LOVE LA and all the GREAT dancing here. Maybe it is just sometimes people like to dabble with hubris here too.

[Chris Stratton]

This is so funny, given how WCS enthusiasts stereotypically like to claim that they can lead untrained dancers into anything...

...but I guess those aren't the guys at the dances you've been visiting.

[DL]

This is so funny, given how WCS enthusiasts stereotypically like to claim that they can lead untrained dancers into anything...

...but I guess those aren't the guys at the dances you've been visiting.

Hang on a moment -- does the stereotype specify *HOW* they claim to be able to lead untrained dancers into anything?

edit:
I'm kidding of course, and I do not mean to lend credence to a stereotype. My jaw dropped at some of the stories I've seen in this thread, though.

[etp777]

mocking and deriding is leading?

[DL]

mocking and deriding is leading?

Well, if that's how a leader attempts to lead, then in the mind of that leader the answer is, "yes."

If you were to ask me if I thought that leader were correct in his understanding, I would say, "no."

[JustAnotherDancer]

Good question... everytime I go out social dancing (WCS), I am on the receiving end of "chatter"! Recently, I was even *quizzed*! "What pattern did I just lead? Ok, now what was that one?" Oh my!

While I try to be philosophical about it, sometimes the commentary makes me so irritated.

My partner, a leader, says he rarely gets any commentary from a follower- except for "thank you!" or "that was fun" or "that was great". I know he doesn't have a running commentary because I have to DRAG feedback out of him during our practices, LOL!

I know I don't suck that much, to deserve all that commentary! Even our big name WCS instructor doesn't give me that much negative feedback!

Now, hopefully this post will actually post, and not get chewed up by the computer....

[samina]

fwiw, I've found the salsa scene in NJ to be far more critical than anything I've yet experienced from the NJ/NY WCies...have yet to experience more collective, corrective arrogance than from certain sects in that community. but mebbe I just haven't done enuf WCS...

anyway, I tend to take commentary while dancing in stride, generally speaking. I figure there's always something to learn...doesn't really bother me.

[Angel HI]

I believe the probleme to be somewhat like in AT. Both of these dances are largely improvisational. This means that when something doesn't work, one partner immediately blames the other b/c there aren't any steps, patterns, etc. to blame. And, of course, it can't possible be me, therefore I begin immediately telling you what to do to make it feel good to me. Probleme is that it's going to feel differently to the next guy, so the cycle begins again.

Of course, the real probleme is that none of these persons know what dancing is. If they did, they wouldn't be able to nag; they would be too busy feeling good.

[Dancelf]

Hang on a moment -- does the stereotype specify *HOW* they claim to be able to lead untrained dancers into anything?

One step at a time?

OK, standard disclaimer applies, right? I've been watching this from the inside.

The attitude doesn't appear to me to be venue specific - I've seen it often enough that I would expect to notice something weird if it wasn't there (sort of like when the heater switches off).

My main guess has been that it stems from the lore that westie is a learned dance - partners aren't matching, most of the dance is done in open position, and its obscure enough that you almost never find someone that you don't know who dances it (unless you attend a dance event). So she's only going to be able to follow if she already knows her part, and how is that going to happen unless someone tells her?

Sigh.

First piece of good news: Women who lead wcs tend not to have this habit[1]. Guessing again, it has to do with the skill level of the partners they start with - most men who lead start out as beginners dancing with other beginners; most women who lead start out as advanced followers dancing with their friends (also advanced followers).

Second piece of good news: good leaders tend to be good leaders all the time. If you have the eye to spot them (support, center, connection are the same in westie as they are everywhere else), go by that. But even if you can't, just listen to what you feel in the first 20 seconds or so - the lead isn't going to get better after that. When your tolerance for his "critique" is used up, excuse yourself politely, walk off the floor, sit out the rest of the song, and try a different partner on the next dance. If you run out of partners before the evening is done, that's not a fun place to dance.

I love the dance, and I'm quite fond of quite a few individuals I've met dancing it, but The Scene is The Pits.

[1] Let's not give them too much credit; they tend to bitch to their friends about the lousy leaders until they try leading for themselves. After all, "they can follow anything if the guy leads it".

[Flat Shoes]

It might be associated with specific communities? Most of the westies around me are pretty nice and encouraging. Our tango world is a pretty closed community and a lot of the really advanced ballroom dancers don't bother mingling with mortals. Other than that, everyone just goes and has fun.

This separation is very natural. People tend to wan to dance with people they know, and if there is enough people they want to dance with during a night, there is no more time left over.

But there are different degrees. Some places nobody will say no if asked to dance, while other places you may risk downright rejection.

But as I mentioned, I think it's a good thing that teachers explicitly teach that correcting others on the social dance floor is bad etiquette. Not everyone will understand that on their own, so they need to hear it formally.

[kayak]

This separation is very natural. People tend to wan to dance with people they know, and if there is enough people they want to dance with during a night, there is no more time left over.

Actually, the top of our ballroom community solve the problem of ever needing to teach on the dance floor by never going to a dance where a lesser dancer might actually be :p

[Ithink]

I've been a fairly active part of the DC westie scene (which is probably the largest outside of Cali) for the last 3-4 years (and in the ballroom competitive scene for the last 10 so that you see that I know both worlds quite well). In that time I've progressed through novice and intermediate levels at competitions (been to both East and West coast conventions) and am now in advanced. Not sure, maybe the DC scene is different, but I can literally count on one hand being told how to do something by a leader during a dance. It's literally almost never happened. I've danced with both local DC leaders and many, many guys of varying levels at the various conventions I've been to and facing a sort of running commentary you guys describe has been a rarity for me personally. If anything, whenever there is a "mistake" made, both the leader and the follower just laugh it off and keep going... Yes, I've had very high-level guys (mostly pros) refuse me a dance if I asked but given how much they get asked to dance at conventions, I tended to give them the benefit of the doubt (although it was tough!) that they were just tired... I mean, every community has bad apples, but I think the WCS community is one of the least "rotten" ones I've experienced.

I agree with Sam: salsa (and AT) leaders have been waaay more unfriendly towards me than WCS leaders ever have, even the very few who've deemed it necessary to "teach" me. One of the few times I've ventured out to an AT dance, I immediately got the "oh, you're a ballroom dancer" disdainful comment, been told my posture is too upright, etc. And the salsa community is just plain unfriendly/macho/uber-clique-y, to me, period.

I guess, I have to say I disagree with the general sentiment in this thread:( One caveat: the Boston dancers have not been the friendliest bunch.... So Larinda, there is that:)

Oh, and I've just discovered Skippy Blair (after hearing her name for the past 3 years!) on Youtube - she's AWESOME!

[jennyisdancing]

I believe the probleme to be somewhat like in AT. Both of these dances are largely improvisational. This means that when something doesn't work, one partner immediately blames the other b/c there aren't any steps, patterns, etc. to blame. And, of course, it can't possible be me, therefore I begin immediately telling you what to do to make it feel good to me. Probleme is that it's going to feel differently to the next guy, so the cycle begins again.

Of course, the real probleme is that none of these persons know what dancing is. If they did, they wouldn't be able to nag; they would be too busy feeling good.

WCS & AT share the distinction of being dances that are very improvisational, but also they are built on unique foundations. It's like the old saying about jazz (music), you learn the chord changes and then you throw them out.

You have to learn all the foundational elements of AT or WCS before you can figure out which of those elements to change when you improvise. Put it another way, the improvisation is built on a structure and certain assumptions, you don't just randomly make stuff up. So basically those two dances tend to require more knowledge and practice in certain ways - not that other dances are any easier, they're just different.

Still, none of that excuses people who try to teach you on the dance floor. That's just annoying.

[Zhena]

My experience has been more like Ithink's than like that of most of the other posters (though without the competition aspect;)). I started learning WCS in a ballroom studio environment. I've been taking pure WCS classes and going to the associated socials for less than a year. I prefer WCS socials to the ballroom socials I attend because I get more invitations to dance, the leaders are aware of the music, and the level of dance skill is higher. I sometimes receive suggestions during WCS class warm-ups, but rarely at a social. I get a lot more verbal leads at the ballroom socials.

It seems it's partly a matter of the culture of the local environment. I'd hate to think mid-dance teaching is as common as it seems from previous posts ... but since I'm likely to stick around my apparently-blessed corner of the westie world, I'll just be happy where I am.

[GJB]

I also suspect "teaching" while dancing may be a regional thing. I don't think I have ever seen it at a competition/convention. Saw it here locally last weekend. Interestingly, the men I saw doing it looked like very low level dancers. Suspect they might never have taken a private lesson. Probably have not heard of dance etiquette.

[GJB]

Have to admit there is a strong dislike of "ballroom" WCS in the WCS (NASDE type events, etc.) world. Once while dancing someone said to me "Do you do ballroom?" I was a bit offended esp since I dance WCS for several years before ever taking a ballroom dance lesson. Then I thought about it. I think she was comparing the quality of my lead to my lack of musicality. I don't think there is a WCS dancer alive that has danced WCS as long as I have that sucks as much at musicality as I do! I have danced with almost all of the top ladies and I try not to ask when there is a song with lots of breaks playing.

[GJB]

Since we are not dancing at the moment, may I suggest to the ladies just one thing that will make the dance much more enjoyable and make you much easier to lead:

If you haven't already done so, learn how to do a nice plain vanilla no frills basic anchor.

[Larinda McRaven]

I am not sure it is "teaching" that Me was getting at. It is constant criticism.

[GJB]

I haven't seen the criticism. What I saw last weekend was a few men genuinely attempting to help women improve their dancing. But, the men were very unqualified to do so.

[JustAnotherDancer]

I haven't seen the criticism. What I saw last weekend was a few men genuinely attempting to help women improve their dancing. But, the men were very unqualified to do so.

Seriously, how many leaders on the social dance floor are able to help women improve their dancing? Many of these "helpful" leaders don't know what they don't know. And, besides that, if the follower needs "help", then the leader needs to back down to the most basic of basic patterns.

I dance, with my mouth shut, when I am dancing with a leader who has No Clue that his feet aren't following the beat, not even a variation of it, totally off time. Mouth shut. Would it be helpful to point this out?

Now, sometimes a little bit of feedback IS helpful. A year or two ago, a number of leaders commented "wow, you're so light!". I asked each one of them, "Too light? is that a good thing or a bad thing? need more connection? does it feel like I'm rushing?". None of them said that they wanted more connection or weight or anything, but I reduced the "lightness" because I really think it indicated I was anticipating, early, etc.

[etp777]

This leader makes it very clear that he can lead/teach some very basic steps, but nothing complicated, and even basic ones should be brought up in your next lesson to fix whatever I explained wrong. :)

[tsb]

"Experts" abound, but there is no real unifying body to specify right and wrong.
If fact, the opposite is true.
Experts, or just teachers if you want, teach cool stuff. People, probably mostly men, learn these cool moves in classes. BUT, what they don't learn is how to lead the thing when they are dancing with someone who didn't learn the same pattern they did. They only thing they have at that point is trying to talk you through the thing.


i have had the same experience - in ballroom and salsa. looking back, the common element was the dance career of the instructor; those whose careers had been more about performance and competition were more likely to teach unleadable moves and figures. those instructors who put a higher priority on partnering skills tended to teach non syllabus moves that were leadable - and also go into nuances, if any, of how the follow could distinguish one figure from another in how it was led. secondary factors included the level of expectation that one would be dancing with (only) other members of the class - knowing the same "step".

IMO part of being a good leader is not just technical proficiency, but the decision making process - a good lead does not choose figures if he is not sure that the follow can actually follow his lead smoothly. and leads should be taught that, when dancing with strangers, to start with simple figures and increase the difficulty until they perceive that they've reached the proficiency level of their partner - and don't go beyond it. anybody trying to lead a move that their partner has little chance of following well is a poor lead regardless of their level of technical proficiency. but that also reflects what or how these leads are given in terms of instruction in what it means to be a good lead.

[tsb]

And when at a dance isn't this what it's all about? It's social dancing and that's the point so why be so picky and sweat what's "right" or "not right". Just have a good time; that's what matters.

tom, i doubt you'd have much fun dancing with me if MY idea of fun as a follow included (and i've experienced all of these working as a dance host - though thankfully not all simultaneously):

- no deodorant;
- noodle arms;
- charles atlas arms;
- vulcan nerve pinch with the left hand on the shoulder;
- vulcan never pinch with the right hand on your left hand;
- dancing off beat;
- complaining all the time;
- dropping left arm so as to baste your wrist with my sweaty armpit - or worse getting it on your clothes that you can't wash off - leaving subsequent partners believing that *you* didn't use deodorant (and this has happened more than once);
- backleading;
- keeping my weight on my heels;
- pointing out every perceived flaw in your frame, posture, lead;

you get the idea. the point is that every dancer will have more fun if they are more fun to dance *with*, which includes technique, attitude and demeanor.

[j_alexandra]

IMO part of being a good leader is not just technical proficiency, but the decision making process - a good lead does not choose figures if he is not sure that the follow can actually follow his lead smoothly. and leads should be taught that, when dancing with strangers, to start with simple figures and increase the difficulty until they perceive that they've reached the proficiency level of their partner - and don't go beyond it. anybody trying to lead a move that their partner has little chance of following well is a poor lead regardless of their level of technical proficiency. but that also reflects what or how these leads are given in terms of instruction.

:kissme: May I have this next dance? Please?

[tsb]

This is so funny, given how WCS enthusiasts stereotypically like to claim that they can lead untrained dancers into anything...


maybe where you come from, but the WCS crowds i tend to see are cliquish enough that the leads wouldn't even consider dancing with an untrained person.

in the ballroom world, WCS is the only dance i won't try to dance with someone if they don't know it; i prefer to do a different dance with them where we are both likely to have more fun.

[tsb]

This separation is very natural. People tend to wan to dance with people they know, and if there is enough people they want to dance with during a night, there is no more time left over.

But there are different degrees. Some places nobody will say no if asked to dance, while other places you may risk downright rejection.

But as I mentioned, I think it's a good thing that teachers explicitly teach that correcting others on the social dance floor is bad etiquette. Not everyone will understand that on their own, so they need to hear it formally.

these folks also tend to be the ones teaching in class - while the instructor is speaking.

[tsb]

I've been a fairly active part of the DC westie scene (which is probably the largest outside of Cali) for the last 3-4 years (and in the ballroom competitive scene for the last 10 so that you see that I know both worlds quite well). In that time I've progressed through novice and intermediate levels at competitions (been to both East and West coast conventions) and am now in advanced.

you are probably one of the few people qualified to give a unbiased answer to the following question: how do you think the typically competitive-oriented trained ballroom dancer but untrained in WCS would fare in a WCS jack and jill (at the same corresponding level of their ballroom proficiency)? i'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this.

[tsb]

since we are not dancing at the moment, may i suggest to the ladies just one thing that will make the dance much more enjoyable and make you much easier to lead:

If you haven't already done so, learn how to do a nice plain vanilla no frills basic anchor.

rotfl!!!

(and this apparently was my 2000th post!)

[tsb]

:kissme: May I have this next dance? Please?

i'd love to, although we suffer from geographical difficulties; when i'm not in denial, i own up to living in pasadena ca.

[j_alexandra]

i'd love to, although we suffer from geographical difficulties; when i'm not in denial, i own up to living in pasadena ca.

Hey, I have family in Burbank; if I'm ever out your way...

That is, if I can fight off the harem in your avatar.;)

[Me]

I am not sure it is "teaching" that Me was getting at. It is constant criticism.

Yes! Constant criticism, followed by bad or unwanted (or both) on-the-fly instruction.

Last night I chatted with a dancer who hangs with the WC crowd in this general area, and she believes it is a problem, but that I just need to let them know to lay off. She said she's had to say things every now and then to make leads shush. She also said that when she gets tired of the chatter, she starts hijacking the dance to mess with them. I'm not sure whether to take any of her advice or not. I don't like being chatted down to (somebody used that earlier and I like it); however, I don't want to make things worse.

I still wonder if this is a WC specific problem... I am absolutely certain I do not put up with this in other partnership dances. *sigh*

[kayak]

you are probably one of the few people qualified to give a unbiased answer to the following question: how do you think the typically competitive-oriented trained ballroom dancer but untrained in WCS would fare in a WCS jack and jill (at the same corresponding level of their ballroom proficiency)? i'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this.

I hope you don't mind another answer?

The interesting thing is your scenario really doesn't occur. Each J&J competitor has to get points to move up. Having everyone start as a Novice really caught me by surprise when I started. Here I was a true novice and I was dancing against pros from other dance forms that just needed to adapt to WCS. It was really intimidating. Having other dance experience does help get out of Novice. In the Intermediate/Advanced categories, creating the feel of WCS is really important.

I think the transfer of technique really has a lot to do with a dancer's attitude. It is kind of like being a rhythm dancer signing up for a smooth comp. The judges are looking for a specific feel. So if we took that great rhythm technique to Waltz, the judges would crush us. If we took a start at ground zero attitude and really added smooth technique, we learn faster than a true rookie and compete pretty well. The same is true with swing comps. The judges are looking for a very specific look and feel. So bringing awesome ChaCha talent really doesn't help win a swing J&J.

[DancingMommy]

Is this just a part of WC swing?

Not in my experience. It is indicative of severely stunted dance etiquette, though. While I don't advocate being uh... tetchy with people as a general rule, I might be tempted to do one or the following:

"Where do you teach?"
"I'm sorry, I'm just here to have fun, not take a lesson."
"Gee I must have missed that workshop. Too bad. Why don't we stick to stuff we both know?"
If it is really, really awful and you don't mind burning a few bridges...

Drop the person's hand mid-dance and say "That's just about the rudest thing I've experienced. I'm sorry but I just can't finish this dance with you if this is how it's going to be. Sorry." If you're feeling generous, walk them to the edge of the dance floor. If you're NOT, just leave them in the middle of the floor.

[kayak]

A better solution to me would be to just find a dance community you like. If you hate every guy in your WCS community, I would just focus on a community where I felt more at home. Around me, the tango community is really a closed circle. So I just don't both with tango. There are lots of forms of partner dancing. I stick with the groups that are fun for me.

[Ithink]

you are probably one of the few people qualified to give a unbiased answer to the following question: how do you think the typically competitive-oriented trained ballroom dancer but untrained in WCS would fare in a WCS jack and jill (at the same corresponding level of their ballroom proficiency)? i'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this.

First, I concur with kayak, your hypothetical wouldn't happen unless you were a bronze ballroom dancer. I, as a pre-champ level dancer, couldn't go and compete in All Star when I didn't have any points in Novice, having previously done no WCS competitions... I had to pay my dues and I am still nowhere near all-star.

Second, I started dancing WCS when I had about 6 years of ballroom (standard) competition under my dance belt. I was in Novice for the first two years. This is partly because I didn't go to comps much at first (still don't, not nearly as much as I want to!!) and thus didn't have the chance to earn points enough to move up to the next level. But also, I needed to beat the ballroom out of my WCS (although I was told with pros I was fairly lucky not to have extensive latin experience because it would make that task harder) so I could make the finals and get said points. It really is about adapting your body to the style. People who do ballroom, for the most part, DO NOT GET west coast swing. Just don't get it. They overdance it big time. I may still be a little guilty of it but now it's on a level where it could be considered my "style" as opposed to "clueless ballroom dancer doing cha-cha/rhumba styling to WCS". When I talk to ballroom people (only when asked!!!) about how to be more "westie" I tell them to stop doing ballroom. Pay attention to what WCS actually looks like and try to do that, not do your cha-cha styling while attempting to west coast swing. Some get it, most don't listen because they think they are better than they know:( Their loss...

[jennyisdancing]

Each J&J competitor has to get points to move up. Having everyone start as a Novice really caught me by surprise when I started. Here I was a true novice and I was dancing against pros from other dance forms that just needed to adapt to WCS. It was really intimidating. Having other dance experience does help get out of Novice. In the Intermediate/Advanced categories, creating the feel of WCS is really important.


In a way, I think the popularity of Jack & Jill (random pairings) comps in WCS helps contribute to the cliqueyness and the pickiness. At a typical WCS dance, quite a few of the people there are avid J&J competitors and so they view even a social dance as just another place to hone their competition skills. Thus they may prefer to dance with other people whom they are likely to be matched with in a J&J comp, and they turn up their nose at people who will not become their competition partners.

Ballroom comps (to my limited knowledge) don't normally have J&J, correct? So if you attend a ballroom social, and choose to mingle (dance with other than your regular comp partner), it wouldn't serve as a prep for your competitions, right?

[Chris Stratton]

Ballroom comps (to my limited knowledge) don't normally have J&J, correct? So if you attend a ballroom social, and choose to mingle (dance with other than your regular comp partner), it wouldn't serve as a prep for your competitions, right?

It wouldn't serve to collect information on those you might be paired with in a non-existent J&J competition, no, but...

... it may well provide transferable experience - I've started noticing that when someone has real difficulty dancing with someone (competent) other than their partner, you can often see a lesser degree off the same difficulty in their dancing with their partner.

... it could be what makes you aware of someone who will become your competition partner in the future

And just like the WCS J&J scouting, this works best if the social crowd contains some comparable other dancers.

[kayak]

In a way, I think the popularity of Jack & Jill (random pairings) comps in WCS helps contribute to the cliqueyness and the pickiness.

I found a pretty strong pull to encourage me to improve. Like I mentioned above, J&Js are interesting because we have no idea of the skill level of the dancer we will get matched with. Since the top of a given level often has to dance with a much lower level dancer in the comp, they do actually come dance with us mortals just for fun. I find this really fun because I am amazed at the number of advanced to pro ladies that will socially dance with me.

[kayak]

... it may well provide transferable experience - I've started noticing that when someone has real difficulty dancing with someone (competent) other than their partner, you can often see a lesser degree off the same difficulty in their dancing with their partner.

Yes, I think you are totally right. I always figure my lead in any dance isn't right until it actually works with most ladies I can dance with. If it only works with a specific partner or with someone I was in class with, then there is usually something broken in the timing of my leads. So I just keep trying to make them better until eventually they work with most ladies.

[kayak]

But also, I needed to beat the ballroom out of my WCS (although I was told with pros I was fairly lucky not to have extensive latin experience because it would make that task harder) so I could make the finals and get said points. It really is about adapting your body to the style.

Totally true, I have been tackling this problem from the other direction. I started with WCS and CW styling and technique and then added ballroom. I literally had to make my body relearn almost from scratch to get reasonable techniques. Even now, a lot of ballroom ladies will comment that I must have learned progressive dances in the CW system just by the path I choose around the floor.

Eventually, I am just going to be a total mush of dance techniques and have no choice but to take over the dance world, promote my really cool new style, and make everyone conform :)

[slotmonkey]

In the Lindy community, one thing that is stressed is that teaching during social dancing is bad etiquette. I find it strange that it is not the same way in WCS too?

Maybe the community has just become too professional, with studios and more formalized teaching methods with stronger focus on the correct way of doing things like patterns? I'm just asking, because I don't know the community. But this could explain why more people feel that they need to correct things that they believe is the wrong way of doing things?

My philosophy is that anything goes, as long as there is good connection and good communication. And communication is at least 50% personal communication, looks, smiles, flirting, body language, encouraging etc.

Somebody said in a different thread that she didn't think of swing as a flirty dance. It definitely can be!

In a social setting the focus should always be on having fun. Not on dancing correctly. It doesn't matter if you are doing things wrong, as long as you have a good time together.

Of course it is even better when the technique works well too. But I find from experience that in order to have a "technically good" dance, you need the personal connection/chemistry as well. If not the feel and flow will be missing, and the dance will feel bland whatever you do.

I really agree with your perspective on dancing.

There are some very good lindy dancers though who are legendary for going up to people (one traveling lindy/blues instructor in particular who will stand on the sidelines at social dances, tell people what they're doing wrong after the songs over, and try to sell them private lessons)

I think that the problem for West Coast Swing arises in part from the fact that group classes are such a big part of a lot of people's dance education in the WCS scene. It seems like in ballroom a lot of people take private lessons, and in lindy, a lot of people learn from their friends or in more intimate groups, and that leaders are more encouraged to experiment and play around. Plus, lindy has "exchanges" where people go just to dance, but every west coast event features group lessons taught by the pros.

In WCS group lessons, instead of learning about musicality and communication, casual dancers (the crowd who are ok with a $4 group lesson but not with a $40-$130 private lesson) learn pattern after pattern, taught to them in a very specific way with very specific footwork and technique. For this reason, it's difficult for a lot of leaders to get out of the mindset of thinking about a dance as a series of concrete patterns. Imagine leading a dance with the same attitude and feeling that you have when you're driving a car: you travel from the beginning to the end of a song, directing exactly how you're going to get there.

Probably worse yet are those who travel to west coast conventions and hop into workshops that are way beyond their experience levels, barely figure out how to lead a pattern when the workshop "followers" already know what to expect, and then try to take their new supermoves with them to the dance floor. "Here, let me tell you what you're supposed to do when I lead this--a champion did it at a workshop so it's as good as WEST COAST SWING DOCTRINE." Kyle and Sarah taught a very difficult pattern at a group class in Palm Springs once, pointed out that they didn't see anyone doing it correctly, and said "Well, the schedule says this is an advanced class--you're the ones lying to yourselves!" You better believe that that move was showing up on the dance floor later.

As far as having specific ways to do a move--I think that it's good to teach "basics" that people can use to model what a connection should feel like when sugar-pushing or side-passing or whipping, etc., but I think that variations such as tapping vs. tripling are both simple enough to allow someone to explore that feeling. After someone masters connection, they should be free to do whatever they want for styling (though you'll want your styling to follow the music and sometimes to mirror your partner's!) Criticizing someone because their styling doesnt match your concept of a move is missing the point of DANCING!

And I think that your concept of swing as "flirty" totally fits into this! When two good dancers are dancing together, they find ways to challenge either other to follow their moves and to match their styling, they try to make each other laugh with their interpretation of musicality, all to make it a fun and thrilling experience.

As a disclaimer, I dont think that group lessons are bad so long as they are used to learn new tricks and methods of leading, instead of concrete patterns. Group lessons can teach us a lot of funny ways to do a side pass, and one of them might be the perfect way to hit something in the music... But leaders need to learn to communicate and play around, to let go of the lead sometimes (even literally: try leading 1 and 2 and then letting go and getting out of the way) and just have fun with whatever happens.

[uncle joe]

Me, I taught WCS from 1949 until 1952, that is when I met Beverly Mayo who still today is a legendary Swing dancer of the 1950's in Southern California. I never enjoyed Swing dancing until she taught me the Lindy Hop which is very much like the ECS.

WCS is a simplified Swing that was popularized by the Arthur Murray Studios to accommodate senior citizens and the not so gifted dancers. Unfortunately, the Swing movies during WW II used dancers doing the Arthur Murray style Swing which came to be called WCS. And ironically the WCS dancers are still under the impression that this was the original Swing when the rest of the cities from SF, Chicago and NYC and the entire US Army was doing the Savoy Lindy Hop during WW II, and I was one of those GIs from NYC.

I'v been on a lone Crusade in LA, to convert the WCS dancers into ECS/Lindy Hopsters since 1997, and the progress is gradually making a few converts who are now at least are using Six counts instead of the abominable Triple Triple and occasionally they are using the term Lindy Hop instead of WCS which has become as complicated as the FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM.

So ME, don't let them get to you with their senior citizen's version of the Lindy Hop. incidentally I am 86 year old Senior Citizen who converted in 1953, `thanks to Beverly Mayo.

[Me]

Wow! There have been several insightful posts over the past couple of days. I really appreciate the information. :) Please keep it coming! Currently my brain is still processing. :)

[jennyisdancing]

Me, I taught WCS from 1949 until 1952, that is when I met Beverly Mayo who still today is a legendary Swing dancer of the 1950's in Southern California. I never enjoyed Swing dancing until she taught me the Lindy Hop which is very much like the ECS.

WCS is a simplified Swing that was popularized by the Arthur Murray Studios to accommodate senior citizens and the not so gifted dancers. Unfortunately, the Swing movies during WW II used dancers doing the Arthur Murray style Swing which came to be called WCS. And ironically the WCS dancers are still under the impression that this was the original Swing when the rest of the cities from SF, Chicago and NYC and the entire US Army was doing the Savoy Lindy Hop during WW II, and I was one of those GIs from NYC.

I'v been on a lone Crusade in LA, to convert the WCS dancers into ECS/Lindy Hopsters since 1997, and the progress is gradually making a few converts who are now at least are using Six counts instead of the abominable Triple Triple and occasionally they are using the term Lindy Hop instead of WCS which has become as complicated as the FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM.

So ME, don't let them get to you with their senior citizen's version of the Lindy Hop. incidentally I am 86 year old Senior Citizen who converted in 1953, `thanks to Beverly Mayo.

I'm confused by all of this...I won't debate history of WCS since it's off topic and I don't know a lot about it...in any event, the OP's question was about WCS as it is currently done, and you are correct that it is now a complicated and technically demanding dance.

As for this point:
I think that the problem for West Coast Swing arises in part from the fact that group classes are such a big part of a lot of people's dance education in the WCS scene. It seems like in ballroom a lot of people take private lessons, and in lindy, a lot of people learn from their friends or in more intimate groups, and that leaders are more encouraged to experiment and play around. Plus, lindy has "exchanges" where people go just to dance, but every west coast event features group lessons taught by the pros.

People take group classes and learn lots of patterns in ballroom and in salsa as well. That situation is definitely not confined to WCS. And there are many WCS dancers who do take privates, especially if they compete. Just as there are many ballroom dancers who never take privates, especially if they do not compete.

[Albanaich]

The nature of dance is that it adapts and mutates to fit in with its dance environment. 'LA' style Salsa for instance is clearly a product of Salsa meeting WCS.

Where I live there's a lot of cross over between WCS, Lindy and Argentine Tango - with people doing all three, with time a new, local, dance form is sure to develop.

Anyone who thinks dance - any dance - can be defined by steps doesn't understand dancing or serious dancers.

Dancing is simply moving in time to music, partner dance is two people moving in time to music in a co-ordinated way.

One of the tradgedies of the 'dance studio' system is that it teaches that if you understand 'steps' you will be able to dance.

Swing - both WCS and Lindy are, technically undemanding dances in terms of physical ability, they are very demanding in terms of rhythm and musical feeling. They become technically demanding if you have no sense of rhythm, it which case (and I have a natural sense of rhythm) they are monstorously difficult.

Much the same could be said of AT, where lots of people concentrate on being able to do particular moves but have no idea where to fit them in with the music. AT is more physically demanding that Swing in terms of balance and co-ordination, but less so in terms of musicality.

One of the most surprising things I learned when I started dancing is that 4 out of 5 people have no natural sense of rhythm, followed by the fact that unless they are trained atheletes, most people can't balance on one leg,

People are taught 'steps' because generally they can't hear the music, and don't have the physical ability to place their feet fast enough. Poor musicans are taught set drills, natural musicians can't figure out why you need them

[Chris Stratton]

One of the tradgedies of the 'dance studio' system is that it teaches that if you understand 'steps' you will be able to dance.

Someone who actually understood "steps" would probably be able to dance quite well, because understanding how they work and why they are done in some ways rather than others brings awareness of the concept of a given dance. But most "steps" presentations really aren't about understanding at all - the pace is kept where just attempting is too much of a challenge for understanding to have a chance.

One of the most surprising things I learned when I started dancing is that 4 out of 5 people have no natural sense of rhythm

I have to wonder how many of the "no-rhythm" people are actually oversensitive to aspects of the music that lead them astray from the fundamental beat, which can at times be hidden behind more attention-grabbing accents and embellishments. Learning to listen through that distraction is a skill.

[Angel HI]

Anyone who thinks dance - any dance - can be defined by steps doesn't understand dancing or serious dancers.

One of the tradgedies of the 'dance studio' system is that it teaches that if you understand 'steps' you will be able to dance.
Sad, but true. Syllabi were never meant to define dance...merely to describe it. The probleme is that most persons do not think past the "exercises" taught while learning, and dance becomes this inane sentence of rote rule.
One of the most surprising things I learned when I started dancing is that 4 out of 5 people have no natural sense of rhythm, ....
Strongly disagree. Everyone has a natural sense of rhythm. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to walk. The issue with music is acquiring the skill/s to adapt/manipulate/interpret that rhythm with an unnatural, meaning external, stimulus...the particular music/dance in question. That it involves the whole body, and connecting all of these things with someone else, makes it even more difficult.

[DWise1]

One of the most surprising things I learned when I started dancing is that 4 out of 5 people have no natural sense of rhythm I have to wonder how many of the "no-rhythm" people are actually oversensitive to aspects of the music that lead them astray from the fundamental beat, which can at times be hidden behind more attention-grabbing accents and embellishments. Learning to listen through that distraction is a skill.

That was my own personal experience. In college I tried in vain to learn to dance (strictly free-style, since that was circa 1970). The only "instruction" I ever received was simply being told to "follow the music and do what it tells me", but there was so much going on that I could never figure out what to follow. I even studied music theory to try to understand rhythm, but to no avail -- doesn't help that rhythm in music theory is not the same thing as what the free-style dancers were talking about.

After 30 years of being written off by everybody as being unable to learn, I started doing group classes. It took nearly 8 months of WCS for me to get to point where I could reliably hear and follow to beat -- mind you, it was something that I was working on to try to learn. And within a few years, my partners started complimenting me as "a natural dancer" and on my "natural sense of rhythm".

My opinion, based on my own experience, is that that "sense of rhythm" is something that everybody has to learn. Some may learn it more easily than others and some may learn it much earlier, but everyone has to learn it. And, let's face it, not everybody in a group dance class is at the same level.

[Chris Stratton]

Whether you dance WC or EC or LINDY, the rhythm is easy to understand when you use the SIX COUNT method first introduced in March 2002 (check Magic Pill in Dance Forum archives) which is counting the Quarter beats and the eighth notes as < 1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5-6 >

Two ready problems with this:

1) it doesn't help with the common problem of getting distracted by prominent non-beat elements in the music

2) six counts does not readily fit musical phrasing, which will really bother some of the more musical beginners to the point where they may unconsciously stretch/cheat timings to force the dancing back on phrase

[Flat Shoes]

One of the most surprising things I learned when I started dancing is that 4 out of 5 people have no natural sense of rhythm, ...

What does this actually mean? Everyone who can walk has some natural sense of rhythm. So I think you need to define this more strictly.

How many can hear the rhythm in the music, and clap their hands to it? How many can stand in place and bounce to the rhythm? How many can can take steps to the rhythm?

I find that the more people need to combine conscious actions with the rhythm, the more difficult it gets. Even though they may hear the rhythm, and maybe move to their own rhythm, they struggle when they consciously need to combine listening to some rhythm with moving to it. And I would not be surprised that as many as 4/5 may struggle here.

[jennyisdancing]

What does this actually mean? Everyone who can walk has some natural sense of rhythm. So I think you need to define this more strictly.

How many can hear the rhythm in the music, and clap their hands to it? How many can stand in place and bounce to the rhythm? How many can can take steps to the rhythm?

I find that the more people need to combine conscious actions with the rhythm, the more difficult it gets. Even though they may hear the rhythm, and maybe move to their own rhythm, they struggle when they consciously need to combine listening to some rhythm with moving to it. And I would not be surprised that as many as 4/5 may struggle here.

Most people are able to clap or tap their toes to a beat. It's a whole additional skill to learn specific steps and add body movement/styling, plus leading and following skills on top of that. Then you add the fact that many people can hear the basic beat but they don't hear the additional musical elements that would lend themselves to more interesting interpretation.

[DWise1]

Even learning to clap to the beat takes training. It has to be learned.

In a conversation at one all-night dance party (ie, house party to which mostly dancers were invited), one woman was complaining about these people who go to see a band perform and then just sit there motionless: "If they don't like the music then why are they there?" I explained to her that they were mostly likely enjoying the music very much, but they weren't moving to it because they were listeners. Like I'm a listener -- the only difference is that I've also become a dancer. Listening is a mental activity in which we listen to all parts of the music and how they interact with each other. Until a listener learns how to translate that to physical movement, he's not going to move much when music's playing.

My own experience was that because I heard and would listen to all parts of the music, I kept losing the basic beat that I was supposed to be following. Once I started group classes, it took me several months before I could isolate that basic beat.

A dancer starts with the basic beat and must then learn to listen to the other parts of the music and to dance to them as well. Ironically, a listener starts out listening to all parts of the music and must first learn to filter out everything except for the basic beat and then relearn to listen to the rest again.

BTW, I didn't learn how to clap along with a song until I had been dancing for about 3 or 4 years.

[Dancelf]

My own experience was that because I heard and would listen to all parts of the music, I kept losing the basic beat that I was supposed to be following. Once I started group classes, it took me several months before I could isolate that basic beat.

Presumably, you had to climb over this hurdle on your own? Or did someone give you guidance?

[jennyisdancing]

Presumably, you had to climb over this hurdle on your own? Or did someone give you guidance?

I know this is a swing thread but I just have to give props to a certain salsa instructor at my studio. He teaches people how to listen to the music and find the beats. So few instructors do this.

[kayak]

Yea, my swing instructor spends a lot of time on how to listen to music. I have really learned a lot. It does take time to learn to isolate different layers of music. Then learning to move you body to those different layers brings up a whole different challenge.

[kayak]

Wow! There have been several insightful posts over the past couple of days. I really appreciate the information. :) Please keep it coming! Currently my brain is still processing. :)

Most importantly, did you get out dancing WCS this weekend? Did any of the ideas help smooth out the dance communications?

[Apache]

BTW, I didn't learn how to clap along with a song until I had been dancing for about 3 or 4 years.

Haha, I have had DJ's in the past issue death threats for people who clap off time in jam circles during Lindy events.

[Wolfgang]

My experiences with WCS:

It's pretty much a 'baby-boomer' only dance (at least here it is), younger people tend to find it boring.

The 'connection' the instructors always emphasize - be it 'positive' or 'negative' (towards or away from one another) virtually never materializes.

The entire thing depends on whether or not the follow either knows what she is doing or at the least gets into the music and is good at improvising.
If that's not happening, neither is the dance, completely regardless of how good or clueless the leader is.

WCS mainly consists of the guy doing not very much at all (which I suspect is part of the reason why it's popular with the baby boomers, see above) while he 'expects' the lady to 'show off' for him.
Which they tend not to do.
(See also: no connection).

The majority of WCS dancers I know do nothing else.
They'll do WCS to the thme from Sesame Street.
Or The Star Spangled Banner.

[jennyisdancing]

My experiences with WCS:

It's pretty much a 'baby-boomer' only dance (at least here it is), younger people tend to find it boring.

The 'connection' the instructors always emphasize - be it 'positive' or 'negative' (towards or away from one another) virtually never materializes.

The entire thing depends on whether or not the follow either knows what she is doing or at the least gets into the music and is good at improvising.
If that's not happening, neither is the dance, completely regardless of how good or clueless the leader is.

WCS mainly consists of the guy doing not very much at all (which I suspect is part of the reason why it's popular with the baby boomers, see above) while he 'expects' the lady to 'show off' for him.
Which they tend not to do.
(See also: no connection).

The majority of WCS dancers I know do nothing else.
They'll do WCS to the thme from Sesame Street.
Or The Star Spangled Banner.

I don't know where you live so I can't speak to your personal experience, but your assessment of WCS is quite different from my reality. What you describe is WCS done badly.

If you want to enjoy WCS, find a venue with good dancers who have taken lessons with good teachers, and you'll see a big difference. If there's absolutely nothing like that in your area, maybe travel to one of the many excellent weekend events such as those listed on USA Swing Net, and take workshops with top level people.

[Dancelf]

My experiences with WCS

Unlucky, those. Well, except perhaps for the one about westies not doing any other dances - that's pretty common.

Normally, I'd try to point you to some locally based instructor who would be more representative of the national dance scene, but from what I can find on the web, Albuquerque is not close to anybody.

[DWise1]

I have to agree that Wölfi's been seeing WCS done badly. Especially the part of there being no connection.

The majority of WCS dancers I know do nothing else.
They'll do WCS to the thme from Sesame Street.
Or The Star Spangled Banner.

Actually, we do other dances besides WCS. Here in So Calif, our dance parties are what we call "California Mix", which includes WCS, NC2S, Hustle, Country 2Step (C2S), Cha Cha, and whatever else a couple might request (we usually throw in a salsa or two and even a waltz).

And, yes, the standard boast is that you can dance WCS to almost any music. Though towards the end of last Saturday's party the DJ played some new "hippity-hoppity" song (¿Poker Face?) and I noticed one couple dancing Argentine Tango to it.

I guess you can dance AT to almost anything.


PS
FWIW, a few months back during a C2S I say one couple dancing Balboa to it. So I guess the same goes for Bal, eh?

[kayak]

Once a leader gets the basics nailed and learns to move along the rails with his partner, WCS totally opens up. Just like with any other dance, it takes a lot of reps of the basics to get there.

[Me]

Most importantly, did you get out dancing WCS this weekend? Did any of the ideas help smooth out the dance communications?

Sorry... I haven't been out dancing WCS since I posted this thread, basically. Not avoiding it... just not going out of my way to dance it. I'll let you know when I do. Thank you for asking! :)

[uncle joe]

ME, According to the lastest reports from the Camp Hollywood festival, you no longer have to put up with WCS because it is history.
Here is a Quote from my Mambo Dance Partner from the 1950's:

"I was there (CH) the whole time. These kids are doing Lindy and they looked and danced great. One thousand of them."

[DWise1]

Absolutely wrong! WCS is still alive and well and being danced by a large well-established community. Just as Lindy is being kept alive and being danced by its community. Just as ballroom is being danced by its community and salsa by its community. Just because you go to a big salsa event and none of the classes offered includes WCS, that does not mean that WCS is dead. No more than the fact that they don't teach Lindy either would mean the demise of Lindy.

WCS and Lindy are two different dances. What part of that do you not understand?

There is a WCS community (more than one, actually) and a Lindy community. What goes on in one community does not directly impact the other community. What part of that do you not understand?

We would expect Lindy to be danced and taught at a Lindy event, but there is no reason to expect salsa to be taught there. Nor WCS. What part of that do you not understand?

[uncle joe]

Two ready problems with this:

1) it doesn't help with the common problem of getting distracted by prominent non-beat elements in the music

2) six counts does not readily fit musical phrasing, which will really bother some of the more musical beginners to the point where they may unconsciously stretch/cheat timings to force the dancing back on phrase

Chris, Excellent critiques:
Let me try to field both <1 & 2 > in general, and then individually:

My Six Count Lindy Teaching Method titled The Magic Pill was a way of having the student focusing on the rhythm instead of the Eight step teaching Guide which is Not a Teaching method.

1) I use the SIX counts as a rhythmic code, a guide for the three essential Basic Lindy Techniques: syncopated rhythm, guide where & when to lead, and the Rock Step to maintain constant resistance; all techniques are included as an integral part the SIX CODE of a first Lindy Lessen. Check my Magic Pill in the Dance Forum Archives

2) The basic Triple Lindy pattern takes a BAR & HALF, to compete; whether you count steps or the beats (Notes) which is < One Quarter Note, Two Eighth Notes; One Quarter Note, Two Eighth Notes; and two Quarter Notes> A total of Six Quarter Notes or a Bar & Half of 4/4 time music. Staying on Phrasing in Lindy be it 4, 8 or 16 bars does not work.

For example of the integrated Techniques in the Six Counts I have included an excerpt from My Magic Pill:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ONE & TWO, THREE & FOUR, FIVE SIX

LADY, ON THE 1... &2 ALWAYS travels or turns only on these 3 steps;
LADY ON THE 3... &4 ALWAYS takes 3 steps in-place;
LADY ON THE 5 -- 6 ALWAYS Rocks Back, takes 2 steps.

MAN ON THE 1... &2 - 3... &4 takes 6 steps in-place, rotating with the direction of his leads;
MAN ON THE 5-- 6 ALWAYS Rocks in the direction of his leads;
MAN ON THE 1... &2 ALWAYS gives his leads.

Uncle Joe
The Dancer's Best Friend

[Larinda McRaven]

I am going to ask very nicely that this rather off topic discussion be dropped. What on earth do the past few posts have to do with anything??? Can we PLEASE get back in line with the original posters delima?

[flashdance]

ME, According to the lastest reports from the Camp Hollywood festival, you no longer have to put up with WCS because it is history.
Here is a Quote from my Mambo Dance Partner from the 1950's:

"I was there (CH) the whole time. These kids are doing Lindy and they looked and danced great. One thousand of them."


Thank you for the newsflash from the miserable dancers association of 1950 :p

Jeez who took the fun out of dancing, some folk just take things way too seriously....

ME, hope you find a place where you can have fun and learn at your own pace without all that rubbish :) Not done partner dancing for yonks but if they annoy you, step on their toes...

[Larinda McRaven]

PLEASE can we drop this endless pointless battle? I am asking nicely. Next deviation gets an infraction. Final request.

[SD]

Is this just a part of WC swing?

Unfortunately, bad leading is a part of every social dance. :(

Every city seems to have its pool of social-skill-challenged folk. In my town the population density does seem higher at the WCS events. There and at certain protest rallys. <shrug>

Happens to me too... when I go WCS

I don't woirry about it anymore. I just let them talk and I smile and dance, and say "thank you!" when it is over.

I can think of no better advice!

In the spirit of thoroughness, I might add.....
I sometimes find that singing select song lyrics and humming/speaking to the music can dampen unwanted conversation - works for overly talkative follows as well.
I have been known to advise leads: "You should know... I'm sort of a naughty follower... I don't always do as I'm told" ... follow with favorite hijack
If you start to learn how to lead you immediately double your choice of partners.

[JustAnotherDancer]

SD, your first 2 points are very funny! Just a little bit of "giving it back"
without malice!




In the spirit of thoroughness, I might add.....

I sometimes find that singing select song lyrics and humming/speaking to the music can dampen unwanted conversation - works for overly talkative follows as well.
I have been known to advise leads: "You should know... I'm sort of a naughty follower... I don't always do as I'm told" ... follow with favorite hijack

[3wishes]

Back to topic, as I've been lurking on the this message for awhile. The question is interesting. In WCS, there are only three things the lady really (simply put here rather than a long discussion) needs to know 1) protect your frame - picture pushing a grocery cart, arms soft and slightly bent - don't allow your arms/elbows to move backward past your body (huge no-no) 2) Know your rhythm, if it's a basic, side pass (your passing him once on one side) or sugar push it's a 6 count basic (for sake of conversation) if your going to pass him twice it's a whip with an 8 count - always anchoring or "stay in place" the last 3 counts of either, if he does not "lead" you into anything - stay in place and do the basic 6 count until he does. 3) this sounds weird but..here goes...you know nothing. absolutely nothing. You have no idea the pattern or movement or figure unless he leads it, and don't anticipate or think you know what's next - every lead is different...to say the least. Just stay in your slot, he moves out of the way, it's your slot. And if you've chosen the one option, resulting from his lead, that he did not want you to do - it's his lead/fault. Always. ta daaaa. Your quite patient, "Me" to change your WCS style to fit your leader request. PM me if you want to discuss further.

[SD]

SD, your first 2 points are very funny! Just a little bit of "giving it back"
without malice!

Thanks for the appreciation,
The idea is not so much to be "giving it back" but to be shaping the sort of interaction that suits you.

Anyone who is focused on what the people around them are doing wrong at the expense of paying attention to and excelling at their own side of the business can be really annoying to deal with.

But often times they turn out to be generally nice people who are, in one particular situation, in a tad over their heads. Cultivating the right attitude, polishing it, and putting it out on display is really helpful in dealing with certain people. The tricky part is to do it in a way that comes across as nice - Or at least to come across as attractive, which, as it happens is sometimes more effective than nice; (there is no explaining that part.) (example: "That So-and-so is such a jerk! ..... Is he/she here? ..... invitation to dance follows...)

[SD]

For Me,

There is one key element to West Coast Swing that some people understandably hold back on when they are new...

As much as Westies harp on technique, patterns, technique, rules concerning anchoring, and more technique, the whole key understanding West Coast may be this:

The most important element of the dance is attitude.

Technique is second in order of importance, and flows there-from.

If, perchance, you show up at a social and hold anything back, then logically you must be a newbie and in need of instruction. In their own backhanded and annoying way, perhaps these guys are really trying to help you out. Once you have figured out how to - at the same time - tell them where to put it AND charm their socks off, then you will have really arrived.

(It is really late at night. I may be over the edge, or I might really be on to something...... prolly the former.)

[fascination]

um...pretty sure I have not posted in this thread...until now ;)

[3wishes]

Agreed, attitude, smile, enjoy - it's everything.

[SD]

um...pretty sure I have not posted in this thread...until now ;)

I daresay you are correct. My mistake indeed.

[fascination]

just wondering b/c I am a bit spacey but I scanned the entire thread and was well...mystified

[Larinda McRaven]

Anyone who is focused on what the people around them are doing wrong at the expense of paying attention to and excelling at their own side of the business can be really annoying to deal with.

Yup and there is nothing you can do to stop them, so you might as well not dwell on it and get your own butt in gear!

[SD]

Anyone who is focused on what the people around them are doing wrong at the expense of paying attention to and excelling at their own side of the business can be really annoying to deal with.



Yup and there is nothing you can do to stop them, so you might as well not dwell on it and get your own butt in gear!

I think this is one of the most valuable, and difficult, lessons I have learned from dancing.:cool:

[utahswestcoastswing]

Just joined onto this forum and noticed this post. Since I mainly do WCS, I felt inclined to post about this thread. This has gotten to be a long thread, so I do not know what has already been discussed and what I have say may have already been posted.:confused:

Pertaining to the original post, I am sorry if anyone feels WCS dancers are providing unwarranted criticism. I don't advocate giving critiques during social dance time unless asked for. Criticism should be reserved for the classroom and only if it is the teacher giving it or if there is an established relationship that allows for criticism. Apologizes for those who may have experienced this. Those people giving unwarranted criticism should not be giving it.

I hope the experiences do not prevent anyone from doing WCS or any other type of dance. Although for some people it may appear to happen mostly in WCS, this is a problem in all types of social dance scenes. I only hope people go dancing looking for a good time as opposed to looking at what they think is wrong.:D

[Steve Pastor]

Welcome, utahs. Yeah, lots of reading to do if you want to go there!

[SDsalsaguy]

Welcome, utahs.
Ditto; welcome to DF utahswestcoastswing! :cheers:

[Chris Stratton]

lthough for some people it may appear to happen mostly in WCS, this is a problem in all types of social dance scenes.

I think you are right about that. Part of the explanation may well be people who have built up some protections against this (attitude, reputation, options) in their primary style then feeling the full unshielded form of it in a different style.

[Me]

Well I hate to end my contribution to this thread on a bit of a down note, but I was asked to dance in a WC exhibition. I thought about it for a week or so, and declined. I just don't want to deal with the garbage. Not too long ago I danced an exhibition that was very open performance style with some WC in it. We had some moves planned but other than that, completely lead/follow, light, happy, and fun. At least, that is how I felt about it. But later I just so tired of hearing about how what we danced was not "real" WC. Nobody critiqued the hustle in it, the cha in it, the freestyle in it... oh but the WC swing bits in it? Holy cow. Unbelievable.

So until the dance scene changes around here, or until I move, I'm just not going to make WC swing any type of a priority. I'm sorry, guys. Thank you so much for your advice and insight! I really appreciate it. I will continue to haunt the swing boards and absorb what I can. :)

[DL]

Not too long ago I danced an exhibition that was very open performance style with some WC in it. ... But later I just so tired of hearing about how what we danced was not "real" WC.... Holy cow. Unbelievable.


"Dancers perform and get criticized."
(http://dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=623644&postcount=67)

BTW, some time ago I saw an exhibition by Luca and Lorraine Baricchi, and heard a bunch of comments from fellow spectators afterwards. Guess what? They were mostly criticisms.

[fascination]

yup...which is why the smart dancer, if they don't intend to quit, or lose their mind, becomes a bit thicker skinned

[Artemia]

There's a lot of posts in this thread so I'm going to admit I just read the first page.

I can't say that I've been bossed around in WCS, though there are times when people will murmur "double turn" or something when I miss the lead. HOWEVER, having known that I hate being bossed around in any dance, I tend to not complain when they do a poor lead, provided I can figure it out eventually.

I think that the line between social dancing (dance with someone you don't know, thankyouverymuch, go dance with someone else) and dancing with someone you know you're going to see again is fuzzy enough that there are times when someone might choose to mention a lead (or follow) in hopes of helping you progress, whether or not they actually are in the group of people you're going to continue dancing with.

Of course, these same people might both have no tact (leading to you feel like you're being bossed around) and also feel that even if they're only going to dance with you once, their astounding knowledge MUST be passed onto you for your greater good!! Without their gifts, how EVER shall you survive as a WCS dancer?

I've learned a lot of things dancing WCS, and one of them I have to agree is that Ballroom dancers are looked down upon. I take a WCS group class once a week and the instructor's assistant just told me this week "You're finally starting to like a west coast swing dancer!" Can't I be both?

Continuing on my ramble regarding being bossed around, there are times when I wish followers would tell their leaders how the lead is feeling, but it becomes such an awkward conversation, because we're not the instructor. (I'm talking about a group class setting now, not general dancing. In general dancing you just grin and bear it, regarding this subject.)

I think that the reason some people may boss in social dancing is they're just so SURE of their "style" that they don't stop and think that West Coast is the sort of dance that is interpretive! If you let the woman go, she can do whatever she wants until she anchors and lets you take her back. If you're ad-libbing the lead, it's up to the follow to figure out her own groove.

What I love about WCS is that if I mess it up, it's not going to be as noticeable as if I do a sweetheart in ECS and my partner tries to pull me through a flirtation and we both fall over backwards! (Not happened to me but it will some day in my nightmares.) Same thing happens in WCS, as long as we make it look smooth, it's part of the dance.

If someone bosses you around, just do things your own way anyway. That's what the dance is about! *grins*

[Steve Pastor]

there are times when I wish followers would tell their leaders how the lead is feeling, but it becomes such an awkward conversation, because we're not the instructor.
It cuts both ways, of course.
If the leader knows what he is doing there may be a perfectly good reason for him doing what he is doing. He may be compensating for something you aren't doing.
There is a special place in my heart for women who "correct me" while having no idea that, from my perspective, they were the one who missing something or did it vey poorly.
I've found over the years that being equally honest in sharing my perspective, and going to great lengths to explain things, gets me nowhere other than on THAT list. Now, I just listen politely and wait for the day when I might be willing to dance with someone who has a flaw that they are uninterested in addressing.

Here's a for instance.

If you let the woman go, she can do whatever she wants until she anchors and lets you take her back.
I've had women use this as an excuse (after the fact) for consistently falling behind the beat and not starting forward on time after completing their anchor. And I hadn't even "let the woman go". " They aren't all six count moves." Well, maybe you are dancing 6.7 count moves?

Bad thing about being a guy is that we usually have to risk rejection if we want to dance. Good thing about being a guy is that we can simply not ask someone again.

[Angel HI]

The bottom line here is that for a dance to be so adamantly exalted for its freeformed freedom, improvisation, and play, there certainly are a large number of persons w/ very vocal opinions of exactly how, and when, these things should take place. Though, IMO, she is giving in for the wrong reasons, it is a shame that the WC communities have been so unforgiving that the OP has opted to quit dancing it.

[Chris Stratton]

The bottom line here is that for a dance to be so adamantly exalted for its freeformed freedom, improvisation, and play, there certainly are a large number of persons w/ very vocal opinions of exactly how, and when, these things should take place.

Perhaps what the champions of free form dances really mean is that they enjoy it when others do things their way.

[GJB]

The bottom line here is that for a dance to be so adamantly exalted for its freeformed freedom, improvisation, and play, there certainly are a large number of persons w/ very vocal opinions of exactly how, and when, these things should take place.

WCS allows for SOME freedom, improvisation, and play. It is a PARTNER dance and therefore does not allow for total freedom whereever and whenever you want. That would just be chaos. Part of the leader's job is to present the follower with windows of opportunity in which she might improvise. But ... it is not supposed to look like two people dancing free style while holding hands. There seem to be some in the WCS community that think things have veered to far with the freedom and improvisation and that it is loosing the partnering aspects.

Though, IMO, she is giving in for the wrong reasons, it is a shame that the WC communities have been so unforgiving that the OP has opted to quit dancing it.

I don't think this applies to all WCS communities. For example, Samina has no training in WCS and has enjoyed dancing here in NJ and has said she has received compliments on her dancing.

[Ithink]

GJB, I totally agree that not all WCS communities are like this. The pretty large DC community (I would argue the largest outside the West Coast) is really friendly. Sure, there are snobs everywhere but the majority of people here are pretty welcoming.

And to the previous comment about a person being told in a class that they are finally looking like a WCS dancer: well, why do you have to take it as an insult instead of taking it as a compliment that you are finally mastering the technique of a VERY different style of dance? It's true what someone said earlier: it's ALL in the attitude. If you are going to get insulted by every innocuous comment, then your feelings will get hurt. If you get an attitude adjustment and take a statement for what it is likely meant to be offered as, a compliment about coming a long way, then you are bound to have more fun, which is what is supposed to happen when you dance WCS. And yes, I am proof that you can be both a ballroomer and a westie, full throttle in both, but you do have to make an effort to distinguish between the two when you dance.

[samina]

I don't think this applies to all WCS communities. For example, Samina has no training in WCS and has enjoyed dancing here in NJ and has said she has received compliments on her dancing.
quite true. compliments, support, graciousness all-around. one gentleman has given a couple on-the-spot lessons, which were a saving grace in getting me started...but only after he asked if i was interested. and he was patient and very well-organized in how he handled it.

have been having the time of my life with the jersey WCS scene in recent weeks...

[samina]

And to the previous comment about a person being told in a class that they are finally looking like a WCS dancer: well, why do you have to take it as an insult instead of taking it as a compliment that you are finally mastering the technique of a VERY different style of dance?
i agree. i would take such a comment as a huge compliment. there is most definitely a unique look to west coasties who've been doing it for awhile. takes time to acquire...just as with any dance.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Continuing on my ramble regarding being bossed around, there are times when I wish followers would tell their leaders how the lead is feeling, but it becomes such an awkward conversation, because we're not the instructor. (I'm talking about a group class setting now, not general dancing. In general dancing you just grin and bear it, regarding this subject.)
I think a good way to tell us how it feels is to follow everything exactly as it is led, even if it differs from what we intend. :oops:

Haven't seen you around for a few weeks. Nice to have you back! :)

[Angel HI]

I don't think this applies to all WCS communities. For example, Samina has no training in WCS and has enjoyed dancing here in NJ and has said she has received compliments on her dancing.Of course, it doesn't. Yet, reading this thread lends credence that it is a widely known problem. I like the dance, FTR.

[kayak]

Angel Hi,

Do you think the pro and advanced dancers in ballroom avoid dancing with mortals just to avoid this perception of snobbishness?

Outside of instructors generating business, it is really rare at any ballroom dances around me for any advanced dancers to be there. Not that the recreational ballroom dancer isn't having fun, but the general level of ballroom dances here skips the really good dancers. The WCS community has everyone all combined on the same floor from total beginner to pro.

The country bar near me has a "no feet off the floor" rule. I guess they always end up with lots of problems where good swing couples come in with some cool lifts. Then, everyone starts trying to imitate the moves, but doesn't have any idea how to do them and people got hurt.

If there is somebody near me that can do some sort of cool move, I always wonder if I could pull that off. Actually pulling off that move usually requires a lot of walk throughs in practice, but I think it is human nature to try it a few times on the floor first.

[Angel HI]

Angel Hi,

Do you think the pro and advanced dancers in ballroom avoid dancing with mortals just to avoid this perception of snobbishness? .
Seriously, I have been in this business most of my life (I mean literally...since age 13), and I believe that there isn't a more snobbish bunch of people than BR dancers (though if you throw pretentious arrogance into the mix, AT might run a good race).

I do not believe that the probleme that the OP was/is having w/ WC dancers is one of snobbishness or the like. I believe that it is from a lack of esteem and/or value. Also, WCS has morphed into a very inprovised mix of dance styles. This allows for many persons to eno****er moves/styles that are varied from something they know. And, this allows for many persons dancing something different from what might have been known oe intended. Knowingthis should enact the pompous dancer to just dance on, rather than to school, on the dance floor, the unsuspecting partner as to what someone believes to be a gospel truth in an improvised situation.

Now, if the argument is that persons do not know this, then they shouldn't be schooling anyone on anything, and the point still stands. It is unexceptable for someone to incessantly be scorned and schooled on the dance floor about either dance at either time. Save it for when you (not 'you', but the antagonist), gets a teaching degree, and holds a class.

[kayak]

Knowingthis should enact the pompous dancer to just dance on, rather than to school, on the dance floor, the unsuspecting partner as to what someone believes to be a gospel truth in an improvised situation.

Yea, I think it is easy to underestimate how difficult improvisation really is. One would think the improve part would be the easiest part, but it really takes a huge tool chest of moves and tricks to pull off. I think WCS puts emphasis on musicality a lot earlier in the learning curve than almost any other dance. So I can totally see how both men and women get lost without a big enough tool chest to actually be improvisational.

Then, it takes a lot of time on the dance floor to actually figure out what "follow the follower" actually means. There really is an art to learning to predict where a slightly botched lead or turn will place the lady. In between, there are lots of places to get lost and it is always easier to decide it is the other partner's fault.

I hardly ever see anyone in the ballroom world focusing on playing with the music until they are just really damn good - they just dance along happily going right past musical changes in a song. If you could bring something from the advanced ballroom training world over to the swing world, what would it be? The difference between a good Waltz and a great Waltz is still musicality. How do you teach it to avoid the pitfalls that some WCS dancers fall in?

[Steve Pastor]

If we tried really hard, I think we could come up with a fairly short list of what it takes to "improvise" in West Coast Swing.
The technique required to be successful at it, including the ability to have MANY of the components available without any consicous thought, would be a much longer list.
While WCS is rhythmically more complicated that, say, Two Step, the principles are the same.
The lists would be different for men and women.

And, there is no gospel truth in an improvised situation other than "make something out of it".

[kayak]

While WCS is rhythmically more complicated that, say, Two Step, the principles are the same.

This is kind of an interesting statement. I would say Two Step has nearly identical rhythmic challenges, but a larger percentage of the dance population never get to the point of playing with them. While the basic step is six count QQSS, there are tons of eight count patterns that use QQSQQS. Plus, there are all the special patterns where a leader can throw in any number of Qs and Ss. Good Two Step dancers can play with the music by throwing in the best fitting patterns they know just like WCS dancers do.

I would say though that making the step from just dancing along happy as a clams out drinking a beer to actually dancing Two Step to accent a song has many of the same pitfalls folks are talking about for WCS. Suddenly, the dancers have to spend a lot of time thinking through what they are trying to lead and why it isn't quite working.

[Steve Pastor]

I watch the people who don't stick to QQS S and they seem to always have no idea what the music is doing. But you are talking about "Good Two Steppers".
My philosophy, which serves both me and my partners well is that if you stick to QQS S all the time, you can do any number of turns reverses, "windows"... whatever, and it works out because, no matter what you are on the "same foot" both when you start and when you finish.
Now, I have no doubt that people are teaching stuff that uses other combinations of Qs and Ss. Remember that I am truck stop training, and I don't think I've ever had anyone try to teach that Two Step has more than one rhythm. The problem with variations in the step pattern is that you have to put it back together somewhere if it comes apart. Not hard to do? I just find it annoying.

In West Coast Swing we have the Anchor Step and the Walk Walk. And frankly, if someone did triples in place of the Walk Walk, my only thought would be "wonder where she learned this?"; a student of Dean Collins or Joe Lanza?
In WCS I'm often not concerned with the woman's "footwork", although I DO want to know where she is going (momentum / location of "center" / like that).

I'm thinking in terms of "basics" such as: knowing how to pivot/spin in time to the music and in control of your axis, keeping an active connection with your partner throughout most of the dance, keeping the "thighs" together, responsiveness to a lead, being aware of and respecting the "slot", (etc ?).

[kayak]

I watch the people who don't stick to QQS S and they seem to always have no idea what the music is doing. But you are talking about "Good Two Steppers".

I think Two Step is just like any other dance. Once partners have the rules of the dance figured out, they can spend a lifetime breaking the rules to take their dancing to new levels.

[Ithink]

I ... don't... get... two-step, lol. Just don't. It's the one dance I just don't get. Whenever, on rare occasion, I decide to dance it, I cannot follow it. It just seems so monotonous to me, I cannot hear anything in the music. There is, seemingly, no phrasing in it so I have a hard time knowing when to do quicks and when to do slows unless I just repeat SSQQ silently in my head the whole time.

Playing and improvising in WCS is easy for me, always has been, but the two-step is sooo damned hard!:)

[Steve Pastor]

It just seems so monotonous to me, I cannot hear anything in the music.
If this is the case, then the people picking the music must not be playing contemporary country western, because I often make some of my partners crazy (some crazy bad, some crazy good) by picking up on the variations in the music. NOT with the qq s s, but with "simple things" like intensity and length of steps, stringing together multiple spins and reverses of direction when the quicker (say 1/8 or 1/16 notes) sections come along, hitting breaks in the music, etc.

Being that you are in Maryland (same place as that Laure' Haile DanceBook showed up from), wonder how active a CW scene there is. If you find it boring...

Take a look at this page on CW Two Step in wikipedia, which is heavily referenced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country-western_two-step

[Flyingkamakiri]

I get 10 cents cause I've been teaching ballroom for 35 years and hopefully earned the extra 8 cents...lol.
The past 6 years or so, I have been active in allot of dance clubs that are not involved with studios. This entire "swing thing" has been a trip and due to few "one trick ponies", thier lack of knowledge and manners has cost me hard in the pocket book. BUT I FOUND THE SECRET!
Back in 1974, we learned wcs as a silver level swing dance. It soon became my favorite dance, with the Latin or Rope hustle soon to follow as the footwork in these dances are the same as the sugar push. When I discovered a swing dance club....who claim the "Bop" as their dance of choice, I was so excited to find wcs dancers as members. Soon the whispers began...OMG don't step fwd on the 6! As if they could step fwd without any weight on their foot!

...

This works wonders.....I had to detox from my rhinestones and heels, but once I did, my ability as a great social dancers was in full bloom (as I can follow anyone with or without ability as all ballroom teachers do) and the one who were afraid to ask me dance suddenly did when I just changes my shoes. It didn't seem so scary for them any longer. Your evening will go smoother without the people in the ballroom putting you down for being a ballroom dancers!

Wow, never even thought that appearance really mattered when you social dance. Then again, i've always noticed that i avoid the really decked out pretty ones... =^^=

[Joe]

Do you think the pro and advanced dancers in ballroom avoid dancing with mortals just to avoid this perception of snobbishness?

Outside of instructors generating business, it is really rare at any ballroom dances around me for any advanced dancers to be there.
It depends. Regarding professionals (who dance all day): suppose you were a professional CPA, who spent your days auditing books. Would you then want to go out the evening in your spare time...to audit more books?

[samina]

welcome to DF, dancedesigner

I HAVE DISCOVERED THE SECRET! With all my years of wit and wisdom in the dance business, here is how to "just get along" and enjoy the dance. CHANGE YOUR SHOES...LOL Trust me, this works.........WCS...get the black practice shoes or sandles wear black pants or jeans with hair pulled back

speaking as a ballroom dancer, have to say this just seems like a logical starting point... wear the right shoes for the dance. i wouldn't wear my court shoes for latin or my latins for WCS. and if i did, i can imagine it would be like wearing a giant scarlet "N" for "Newb" from ballroom set.

glad you found a secret that made the difference for you, though, so you could merge and be accepted by the group.

[Larinda McRaven]

It depends. Regarding professionals (who dance all day): suppose you were a professional CPA, who spent your days auditing books. Would you then want to go out the evening in your spare time...to audit more books?

thank you

[Chris Stratton]

I HAVE DISCOVERED THE SECRET! With all my years of wit and wisdom in the dance business, here is how to "just get along" and enjoy the dance. CHANGE YOUR SHOES...LOL Trust me, this works........lindy hop dance? pull out the ugly black and white practice shoes and pin your hair up....WCS...get the black practice shoes or sandles wear black pants or jeans with hair pulled back, shag....Mary Jane's for the gals with capries and men, loafers with no socks, pleated pants, long neck beer and set of golf clubs in tow!
This works wonders.....I had to detox from my rhinestones and heels, but once I did, my ability as a great social dancers was in full bloom (as I can follow anyone with or without ability as all ballroom teachers do) and the one who were afraid to ask me dance suddenly did when I just changes my shoes. It didn't seem so scary for them any longer. Your evening will go smoother without the people in the ballroom putting you down for being a ballroom dancers!

I think you may actually be on to something.

However, I'm not sure the effect is entirely in the others, though that is probably a big part of it. But what you wear can likely affect yourself as well. I'll tell you for a fact that I dance better in a tailsuit.

[Steve Pastor]

Hello, dancedesigner, and Welcome.

Back in 1974, we learned wcs as a silver level swing dance.

I called Skippy and ask her to explain this anchor step. She told me that when she began teaching these group classes, it was just to hard to teach a coaster so she changed it to a 3ft pt triple.

Does this mean you took lessons from Skippy in Downey? She had other sudios, too, I
If so, I'd be interested in hearing more!
In particular, do you remember what kind of music she used for WCS lessons in the early 70s, and what people danced it to in general. I found written records from New York listing one song for "Western Swing" as it was known before becoming WCS, and I've got a list of songs that Laure' Haile used.
Skippy doesn't mention any music in her books.
Details?

[GJB]

It depends. Regarding professionals (who dance all day): suppose you were a professional CPA, who spent your days auditing books. Would you then want to go out the evening in your spare time...to audit more books?

The analogy seems a little off to me. Auditing is auditing. Teaching dance is not the same as dancing for enjoyment. In a lesson, there is plenty of talking and explaining, dancing a single figure or short combination. Often you don't even dance to the music because you have to share the music with everyone in the studio. But, maybe if I were a teacher I'd think differently. I don't know. That said I program all day long. And, the first thing I do when I get home is turn on the computer. And, sometimes I do program at home on my own time. And, I often read books and articles about programming to learn new things.

Edit: What I could understand is being to tired to go social dancing.

[kayak]

I HAVE DISCOVERED THE SECRET! With all my years of wit and wisdom in the dance business, here is how to "just get along" and enjoy the dance. CHANGE YOUR SHOES...LOL Trust me, this works........

I will give you a full 10 cents for this advice :)

[kayak]

It depends. Regarding professionals (who dance all day): suppose you were a professional CPA, who spent your days auditing books. Would you then want to go out the evening in your spare time...to audit more books?

Yea, there is a huge challenge not loosing the love of an activity as one builds a business around it. So I totally understand that most of the instructors at a social dance are there on business and might choose a night at the movies over a social dance.

I just notice that a lot of the really good ballroom dancers don't go to the ballroom dances in my area. So the average level of dancer at our USA Ballroom events is much lower than the matching WCS or Country events. At a WCS dance, the top dancers are right in the mix with the average dancer. It is just a different dynamic.

[Joe]

Well, aside from the pros, the really good ballroom dancers are probably competitors, many of whom practice several hours each week (if not each day), dancing with their own partners. After that much dancing time, they may not be interested in social dancing.

[Joe]

The analogy seems a little off to me. Auditing is auditing. Teaching dance is not the same as dancing for enjoyment. In a lesson, there is plenty of talking and explaining, dancing a single figure or short combination. Often you don't even dance to the music because you have to share the music with everyone in the studio. But, maybe if I were a teacher I'd think differently. I don't know. That said I program all day long. And, the first thing I do when I get home is turn on the computer. And, sometimes I do program at home on my own time. And, I often read books and articles about programming to learn new things.
OK then, how about this:

You're an accounting professor. Would you want to spend all day teaching accounting, then go out in the evening and audit books? :p

[kayak]

Well, aside from the pros, the really good ballroom dancers are probably competitors, many of whom practice several hours each week (if not each day), dancing with their own partners. After that much dancing time, they may not be interested in social dancing.

The advanced swing dancers and pros no doubt put in a ton of time as well - I know how many hours of practice and dancing it has taken me in the intermediate realm. Yet, most still love to get out dancing. The culture is just different. While it can be a little intimidating, I think dancing intermingled with the very best dancers is a lot of fun.

[Chris Stratton]

The advanced swing dancers and pros no doubt put in a ton of time as well - I know how many hours of practice and dancing it has taken me in the intermediate realm. Yet, most still love to get out dancing. The culture is just different. While it can be a little intimidating, I think dancing intermingled with the very best dancers is a lot of fun.

It's not just the culture that's different, also the overall organization and the specific rules of the competitive aspect.

And then the dances and supporting skills are functionally different, too. Ballroom is functionally in a kind of odd place between street dances and academy-instead-of-ordinary-school type dances - in a way almost a split between a group of people trying to do the former and increasingly a group imitating the later in at least some respects.

[Dancelf]

academy-instead-of-ordinary-school type dances

I don't understand what this means, which prevents me from understanding the rest of your hypothesis.

[Chris Stratton]

Kids transferring from ordinary school to some royal/national school of ballet or whatever, making dancing their life's profession while still very much children, etc

[kayak]

Chris, you should encourage some of the youthful talent to try some social dances or at least dance some weddings. There is a lot of joy in the journey of getting better. To me, it is amazing that any dancer at something like a wedding is better than probably 95% of the people there. Striving for that last 5% can be so consuming we forget to enjoy the benefits of actually being a decent dancer.

[Chris Stratton]

Chris, you should encourage some of the youthful talent to try some social dances or at least dance some weddings.

The youthful talent is basically too young and too overspecialized at the point in their dancing where it would be simply fun. When they hit early adulthood they sometimes do start doing things like that - as paid dance escorts.

To me, it is amazing that any dancer at something like a wedding is better than probably 95% of the people there. Striving for that last 5% can be so consuming we forget to enjoy the benefits of actually being a decent dancer.

Or the playlist being geared to the 95% might mean that your best option would be something you could sort of do a hustle to.

It isn't just one side that's moved away from a point of potential meeting, it's both. Many of the people really really leaning are on an overfocused path where socials don't fit the first time around that loops back to include them only as part of a job; many of those who naturally gravitate to socials aren't quite finding entry onto a path towards mastering the core skills that would make them more comfortable, and especially not in the numbers needed to build community.

WCS on the other hand seems to still be "owned" by dancers who grew up out of social setting. On the plus side that means more connection and relevance throughout the community; on the minus there isn't quite the deference to the idea of a separate teaching corps to provide defense against some of the complaints at the start of this thread.

[jennyisdancing]

WCS on the other hand seems to still be "owned" by dancers who grew up out of social setting. On the plus side that means more connection and relevance throughout the community; on the minus there isn't quite the deference to the idea of a separate teaching corps to provide defense against some of the complaints at the start of this thread.

On this thread topic -

I was talking to a guy I know from my dance studio. He's been learning WCS for a few months, so he's a beginner leader, and a very nice guy. He told me that he started social dancing recently, but at two popular local venues, most of the women criticized him for not knowing certain steps, or they tried to correct him and teach him in a negative, non-constructive way (i.e. saying "you're doing that wrong, do it this way").

I was really upset to hear this, but not 100% surprised because I'm familiar with some of the crowd at those venues.
This guy is really nice and sweet, and is trying his best to improve his skills. I'm angry to see this kind of disrespect. :mad:

Fortunately, this guy hasn't been daunted - he found a practice partner and they're practicing in her home - and I've also suggested certain other venues that are friendlier.

[kayak]

WCS on the other hand seems to still be "owned" by dancers who grew up out of social setting. On the plus side that means more connection and relevance throughout the community; on the minus there isn't quite the deference to the idea of a separate teaching corps to provide defense against some of the complaints at the start of this thread.

You are probably right on. There are good and bad aspects to each. They just take some getting used to.

[richardv2]

This seems to be a thread for the ladies, but I thought I might add a male perspecrtive.
I am post-beginner, working in intermediate classes and private lessons with my wife.
Fortunately, we have had excellent teachers who are very respectful and we have not yet seen any of the situations above.

As a teacher for the last twenty years, I find it difficult to stay silent. We recently attended a beginners class learning what I feel I had a good handle on. Since some of the new ladies seemed to be struggling and even asking for help, I made what I thought were a few helpful comments during the evening.

Later me wife asked what I would do when teaching an electronics class where a student began coaching the struggling students in the middle of my lesson. I got the point.

I believe a social dancer who makes negative comments about their partner is rude and offensive. I would either avoid that person or tell them why I don't wish to dance with them. Our club is "ladies choice" all the time, so I have been dancing with some excellent dancers. On several occasions I have asked a specific question and gotten an informative answer, so I appreciated the help. I can see that someone commenting on my technique (or lack of it) would get annoying very fast.
In a class: It is the instructor's job to do this.
Social dancing: It's not my job to "help" or make comments about others.

[Dancelf]

Later me wife asked what I would do when teaching an electronics class where a student began coaching the struggling students in the middle of my lesson. I got the point.

Without intending that you lose the point - it's not clear to me how well the analogy holds. Which is to say, I'm not sure that you'd react unfavorably to coaching during a collaborative exercise as you would to coaching during your lecture. Nor am I convinced that pointing out a sign error when you see someone out doing electronics socially is such a faux pas.

[Silveralsa]

Okay, hopefully this thread will be exploratory and not inflammatory.

I will speak from personal experience, and hopefully it won't upset too many people. My honest experience... Of all partner dances I have participated in, WC swing is by far the least enjoyable social dance experience for me.

For whatever reason, there are leads who think it is their duty to immediately launch into criticism of my swing.

While I'm a girl/follower, I still want to apologize that it's been like that for you in WCS. While I've encountered a couple individuals who will do that, on general that has NOT been my experience here in S. California scene. Sometimes they're trying to be helpful, other times they're control freaks, and other time they're just exerting their expertise to try and impress. Either way, unless you ask someone for advice, it's not cool. Funny thing too, my few experiences have been usually with novice-int dancers who actually don't know what they're doing. I think I've only had ONE advance dancer (out of the plethora here) who did that. I've never had a single one of the pros that I've had the privelege to dance with do that to me. I wonder if it might just be the community of guys in your area. Maybe there's a teacher whose set the example and the guys have followed? Personally, I'd let it slide once. Second time, I'd say "thank you for the free advice, but I just want to dance, not have a lesson. Otherwise I'll just dance with someone else, because I'm just having fun right now." Of course ,say it in a nice tone/manner. If he gets offended, he needs to just get over it. If not, walk away... For after that, it's just plain controlling and rude, IMO.

[jennyisdancing]

I had a doozy of an experience with this last night. Went to a California mix dance (a variety of music, but the lesson and several songs were WCS). This was a place where most folks were beginners. Having studied WCS for about two years now, I would say that I was pretty experienced compared to most of the crowd. I'm no expert, just saying that the majority of the crowd there had little or no WCS background.

Anyway, I asked a guy to dance. He gave me a skeptical look and said "do you really know West Coast? How many lessons have you had?"
That's usually a bad sign, and at that point I should have just changed my mind but I figured, okay, I asked him, so I should go through with it.

So we start dancing. I did some syncopations to express the music, and he patronizingly said "that's not bad", kind of like he hadn't expected me to know or do anything at all. It was somewhat hard to follow him because he didn't anchor or give connection. He was just sort of doing his own moves. So I did the best I could. (I don't have trouble following other leaders at various levels).

Then he starts trying to teach me and correct me. At that point I lost it. I told him I couldn't dance with him if he was going to try to teach me on the floor. Of course he got offended and said "well, you should learn how to dance". Then he walked off in a huff. Boy, that sure was the capper to my stressful week. Glad the other dancers there were nice.

[Silveralsa]

...So we start dancing. I did some syncopations to express the music, and he patronizingly said "that's not bad", kind of like he hadn't expected me to know or do anything at all. It was somewhat hard to follow him because he didn't anchor or give connection. He was just sort of doing his own moves. So I did the best I could. (I don't have trouble following other leaders at various levels).

Then he starts trying to teach me and correct me. At that point I lost it. I told him I couldn't dance with him if he was going to try to teach me on the floor. Of course he got offended and said "well, you should learn how to dance". Then he walked off in a huff. Boy, that sure was the capper to my stressful week. Glad the other dancers there were nice.

That guy was a moron... :bkick:his pride will go before his downfall.. cheer up girlie and hang in there. There are plenty of good leaders out there, but unfortunately us girls have to put up with a couple bad apples...

[kayak]

I guess my humor didn't really come across on my post..........geeeesh. It was never really about the shoes,.... I teach a classed named " Whip me, Swing me, Shag me" LOL.....Anything to get the new men in a class

I just liked your light hearted shoes are the answer in this way to serious thread. Of course, what guy wouldn't sign up for for a class like "Whip me, Swing me, Shag me"?

[Artemia]

So I have decided that it takes all types to make up this world. Not a new thing, but I haven't experienced such an insulting barrage of West Coast Swing dancers until I tried out a new place last night.

The pro of the studio was that the level of dancers and the quantity were both higher than at the other place where I dance. The con was that half of the people I danced with skipped straight past the "trying to be helpful" with comments stage and moved straight into the "let's insult my partner to see if I can get her to stop dancing with me in the middle of the song."

I can't even figure out what might have caused such things people said to me last night. I had the cowboy-like WCS dancer who continually knocked his own knees together in a bandy-legged version of the dance tell me that there was "far too much movement" going on in my lower body. *coughs* Yes, and you?

I had the man who asked me "What sort of dance do you do?" (completely disregarding that hey, we're dancing WCS!) and when I replied Rhythm/Smooth and made a joke about "You can probably tell because I keep trying to rock step" (neglecting to mention that it was because of his rough lead shoving me backwards before each 1 count) he said "No, I can tell because you're not waiting for my lead and are right on top of me all the time." Okay, 1: Having a woman on top of you does not = a bad thing and 2: I pride myself on being the sort of person who tests out a person's lead -- I don't know 3/4 of the steps I'm led through so I am most certainly waiting. Here I am dancing with a man who feels the need to insult me when I am following nearly every move he leads me into... welcome to the reality of swing dance?

I danced with the instructor a few dances after that and told him that I had felt insulted by the man's comment but would rather hear the same from him if it were actually the case. We danced, he claimed I didn't pounce before the lead, so why did the other man feel the need to be so rude? I didn't feel when we were dancing that I wasn't waiting for the lead, and while his lead was a bit more heavy (aka forceful) than some others, it was certainly not bad. I didn't insult him by mentioning that his lead was causing me to struggle for balance on the 1, but he decided to inform me that I was not only a poor follower but CLEARLY not a WCS dancer.

Thank goodness there are still decent people out there to dance with, but why do I have to get all the loonies? I know I'm not the only one but here I am, whining like the best of them. :P

[jennyisdancing]

The pro of the studio was that the level of dancers and the quantity were both higher than at the other place where I dance. The con was that half of the people I danced with skipped straight past the "trying to be helpful" with comments stage and moved straight into the "let's insult my partner to see if I can get her to stop dancing with me in the middle of the song."


I'll say this: if the dancers were rude, critical, blamed you, tried to teach you, etc. then their level of dance was not high at all. IMO higher-level dancers a) learn to adapt to their partner and b) practice good etiquette.

Where is the instructor amongst all this? Is he the person that these guys are learning from on a regular basis? Is he encouraging this poor attitude in any way? Or is it something that these guys do on their own, and maybe the instructor could be alerted to the issue?

[basicarita]

Where is the instructor amongst all this? Is he the person that these guys are learning from on a regular basis? Is he encouraging this poor attitude in any way? Or is it something that these guys do on their own, and maybe the instructor could be alerted to the issue?

This is what I'm wondering.

All four of these things, actually.

[Artemia]

Where is the instructor amongst all this? Is he the person that these guys are learning from on a regular basis? Is he encouraging this poor attitude in any way? Or is it something that these guys do on their own, and maybe the instructor could be alerted to the issue?


If you wonder.. I shall answer! (Well, I shall try to since who can say what's really going on but the people themselves.)

The place I went to has an Intermediate WCS class followed by a party from 9:15 to midnight. Quite a few people from the class did not stay for the party, and many people who were at the party did not come to the class. I cannot recall seeing either of the two people I whined about in my post previous at the class, though they were at the party. (We did not make it fully through the rotation but I do not think that either one was part of the 7 or so people I didn't get to dance with at the class.)

So, I don't know if the instructor teaches these people on a regular basis. I take classes from this instructor at a different studio and he has never once talked about anything -- either good or bad -- about critiquing your partners while dancing. He does an amazing job talking about both WCS theory (how to figure out a move even if you don't know the pattern, just by feeling the lead) and while I have no idea how he could encourage this idea in his students, if I took a moment to think about it I don't believe he has any habits that would allow his students to feel superior enough to their partners to act in such a rude way.

As I said, I did mention to him that I had been told I was jumping before the lead, but I wasn't about to turn around and point a finger out in the ballroom at the guy. It was a rude way for the concept to be broached to me, but what if he had been right and I was doing something wrong? (Granted, I'd never want to be told anything like that in such a derogatory manner, but at the same time if he was RIGHT I can't go around parading the bloody wound he gave me for people to say 'well, you ARE doing that.')

The place was about an hour away from my house anyway so I won't be going there on a normal basis. The reason I say that is not because of the negative experience I had there (more the fact that gas is EXPENSIVE) but it's somewhat sad to say that I won't miss it because of the icky kind of people that asked me to dance. Good news is I had more positive dances than bad ones... bad news is that with all bad news it usually sticks a bit longer than good.. er.. news.


I am curious though: If someone shoots an insult like that at you while you're dancing (his wasn't even a recommendation to improve, just a criticism, but I mean this in the case of any sort of statement about one's dancing) ... what do you do? Do you just ignore it and finish the dance, do you say "Oh, alright" and keep dancing or do you do what I desperately wanted to and just leave them? (I find it super rude to leave someone in the middle of the floor, and I feel it would tarnish my reputation, but graargh sometimes I want to.)

[Dancelf]

I find it super rude to leave someone in the middle of the floor, and I feel it would tarnish my reputation, but graargh sometimes I want to.

Many years ago, I happened to arrive early to San Francisco for a dance event (presumably Boogie), and went to Kelly Casanova's (http://www.wcs-dancer.com/KellyCasanova.html) weekly class. For her students that would be attending their first event, she took 5 or 10 minutes to enumerate a number of situations in which the appropriate response was

Excuse me, I have to sit out now

[Artemia]

How long do I have to sit out after that statement? It's such an awkward moment, especially since I am the bubbly and super upbeat blond girl that does her best to do no harm -- really would tarnish my reputation to start making the people who think they're all that hate me.

However I appreciate the insight -- any tips on how to use it in practice?

[Larinda McRaven]

Perhaps a statement such as "I see that I am not up to your standards for this dance. Perhaps it is best if I let you find someone better to dance with..? Excuse me." And then make way to your seat. If someone else invites you to dance you are free to accept since it would be supposed that you ARE good enough to dance with the new person.

However I wouldn't bother to say anything except "thanks for tips" and smile until the dance was over. And rememebr to be busy next time he wanders your way.

[jennyisdancing]

If you wonder.. I shall answer! (Well, I shall try to since who can say what's really going on but the people themselves.)

The place I went to has an Intermediate WCS class followed by a party from 9:15 to midnight. Quite a few people from the class did not stay for the party, and many people who were at the party did not come to the class. I cannot recall seeing either of the two people I whined about in my post previous at the class, though they were at the party. (We did not make it fully through the rotation but I do not think that either one was part of the 7 or so people I didn't get to dance with at the class.)

So, I don't know if the instructor teaches these people on a regular basis. I take classes from this instructor at a different studio and he has never once talked about anything -- either good or bad -- about critiquing your partners while dancing. He does an amazing job talking about both WCS theory (how to figure out a move even if you don't know the pattern, just by feeling the lead) and while I have no idea how he could encourage this idea in his students, if I took a moment to think about it I don't believe he has any habits that would allow his students to feel superior enough to their partners to act in such a rude way.

As I said, I did mention to him that I had been told I was jumping before the lead, but I wasn't about to turn around and point a finger out in the ballroom at the guy. It was a rude way for the concept to be broached to me, but what if he had been right and I was doing something wrong? (Granted, I'd never want to be told anything like that in such a derogatory manner, but at the same time if he was RIGHT I can't go around parading the bloody wound he gave me for people to say 'well, you ARE doing that.')

The place was about an hour away from my house anyway so I won't be going there on a normal basis. The reason I say that is not because of the negative experience I had there (more the fact that gas is EXPENSIVE) but it's somewhat sad to say that I won't miss it because of the icky kind of people that asked me to dance. Good news is I had more positive dances than bad ones... bad news is that with all bad news it usually sticks a bit longer than good.. er.. news.


I am curious though: If someone shoots an insult like that at you while you're dancing (his wasn't even a recommendation to improve, just a criticism, but I mean this in the case of any sort of statement about one's dancing) ... what do you do? Do you just ignore it and finish the dance, do you say "Oh, alright" and keep dancing or do you do what I desperately wanted to and just leave them? (I find it super rude to leave someone in the middle of the floor, and I feel it would tarnish my reputation, but graargh sometimes I want to.)

Usually if someone tries to teach me or makes other comments I just grit my teeth, politely finish the dance and vow to avoid that person again. But last time, the guy was just over the top with his criticisms and I saw no reason to keep dancing with him. (See this post. (http://danceforums.com/showpost.php?p=738097&postcount=156) )

After that I walked off the floor to go and calm down. Then I told the teacher about this rude guy. The teacher asked me to point the guy out. I don't know if the teacher did anything after that. Meanwhile, after another song or two, I headed back to the floor and danced with others who were very nice, but it was hard to forget the aggravation.

I understand what kind of event you attended - where basically they hire a teacher to do a lesson before the dance, and the dancers are not necessarily regular students of that teacher. I asked because it would be a little different if the dance was at a studio where the teacher was affiliated. Which makes me wonder, are there dances at the studio where you take lessons? Also, seeing as you discussed your bad experience with this teacher, can he recommend perhaps other, more friendly places to dance?

Bottom line is, find places with nice people and a good vibe. In my case, unfortunately, a couple of the closest and most convenient dance venues in my area have the biggest number of unfriendly or annoying people. So I've found other places to go.

[Ithink]

Many years ago, I happened to arrive early to San Francisco for a dance event (presumably Boogie), and went to Kelly Casanova's (http://www.wcs-dancer.com/KellyCasanova.html) weekly class. For her students that would be attending their first event, she took 5 or 10 minutes to enumerate a number of situations in which the appropriate response was

I wonder what the appropriate response to would have been to Kelly Casanova herself when she said a number of condescending and rude things to me at this year's Boogie by the Bay when she deemed it necessary to demote me in level against the competition's own rules... But that's beside the point...

Artemia, it's only happened to me once, when I first started dancing WCS, that someone said something rude to me during a dance about my own dancing. I was so shocked by it, mostly because I hadn't seen anyone else in the local community do that, I didn't say anything and just finished the song. These days a) I know the guy who said it is more than a little off in general and b) he compliments my dancing incessantly now when he dances with me or even watches me dance... So, I think things like that pass, eventually...

[JustAnotherDancer]

I wonder what the appropriate response to would have been to Kelly Casanova herself when she said a number of condescending and rude things to me at this year's Boogie by the Bay when she deemed it necessary to demote me in level against the competition's own rules... But that's beside the point...



Holy cow! I'm sorry you had to experience that at BBB!

(I caught the last part of her workshop, the one where she supplied an etiquette handout...).

[Dancelf]

(I caught the last part of her workshop, the one where she supplied an etiquette handout...).

Oh my god, I would have had a field day!

(Of course, the freedom to not care to maintain a good relationship with the head judge also means I'm unlikely to find myself in that situation.)

[JustAnotherDancer]

(Of course, the freedom to not care to maintain a good relationship with the head judge also means I'm unlikely to find myself in that situation.)

Dancelf, assuming a competitor is not attacking the judge :), a competitor should not have to worry about maintaining a good relationship with the head judge or any other judge.

In fact, I would say that there really isn't a 'relationship' to be maintained... at least, I sure hope that there is not, otherwise, the objectivity that the judges should preserve is tarnished. I know, I know, judges are human, too.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I am curious though: If someone shoots an insult like that at you while you're dancing (his wasn't even a recommendation to improve, just a criticism, but I mean this in the case of any sort of statement about one's dancing) ... what do you do? Do you just ignore it and finish the dance, do you say "Oh, alright" and keep dancing or do you do what I desperately wanted to and just leave them? (I find it super rude to leave someone in the middle of the floor, and I feel it would tarnish my reputation, but graargh sometimes I want to.)
I'd note that Laura is a lovely dancer and person and is one of the best by far on the floor when she goes to a social.
<snip>
But once I danced with some guy who just would not shut up and I finally stopped him and said very sweetly "I'm so terribly sorry that my dancing disappoints you so much. Let's just end this right now because I'd hate to take away from your enjoyment of the evening." And then I walked away from the guy. Don't know what happened to him after that....
<snip>

[SadKumquat]

Yikes, reading this entire thread brings back some awesomely bad memories. Once upon a time, I was the advice giver - and my mentality was that I wanted to help as much as possible and I loved the dance so much that was the way to give back. Luckily, someone was nice enough to point out how very disrespectful it was to give unbidden advice. Nowadays, I don't give advice at all unless it's asked, and even when it's asked I generally demur unless I know I can devote some time to instruction (i.e. not in between social dances). The lone exception is if the follower is doing something that could potentially hurt me or her - then I would point that out and work with her to fix it; protect the collective, as it were :).

Apologies to everyone who've run into the self-made critics...

[Ray Sison]

Good response, Laura!

[kmaitland]

Okay, hopefully this thread will be exploratory and not inflammatory.

I will speak from personal experience, and hopefully it won't upset too many people. My honest experience... Of all partner dances I have participated in, WC swing is by far the least enjoyable social dance experience for me.

For whatever reason, there are leads who think it is their duty to immediately launch into criticism of my swing. Immediately as in the following scenario: walk walk, triple, triple<----- You need to coaster/You need to anchor/I don't like the way you are anchoring/You should anchor on your front foot/You should anchor on your back foot/You need to bend both knees there/I just went to a workshop where they.../ETC.


You know what happens in Toronto when a leader (or follower for that matter) does that sort of nonsense? They don't get to dance much... then they don't get to dance at all. I see that sort of foolishness in the salsa crowd -- but only with idiots who can't dance.

Toronto may have its own issues in its WCS scene but that sort of behavior is definitely NOT one of them. For one thing, it is too small (compared to Lindy, Salsa, Ballroom). Secondly, to be frank, everybody here has had the same teacher - Julie Epplett. If you learned something new at workshop you can bet that Julie was there. So at the very least, the leading is consistent.

So if you are in Toronto - or at SwingNiagara - hang with the Toronto crowd (and Kitchener too - Sean Browne teaches there and is a sweetie).

[jennyisdancing]

You know what happens in Toronto when a leader (or follower for that matter) does that sort of nonsense? They don't get to dance much... then they don't get to dance at all. I see that sort of foolishness in the salsa crowd -- but only with idiots who can't dance.

Toronto may have its own issues in its WCS scene but that sort of behavior is definitely NOT one of them. For one thing, it is too small (compared to Lindy, Salsa, Ballroom). Secondly, to be frank, everybody here has had the same teacher - Julie Epplett. If you learned something new at workshop you can bet that Julie was there. So at the very least, the leading is consistent.

So if you are in Toronto - or at SwingNiagara - hang with the Toronto crowd (and Kitchener too - Sean Browne teaches there and is a sweetie).

Nice to hear that the social scene is more pleasant up north. Welcome to DF too. :)

[kmaitland]

Nice to hear that the social scene is more pleasant up north. Welcome to DF too. :)

Many thanks, Jenny!

[plugger]

I don't think it's regional. I don't buy that dancers in some parts of the country are ruder than elsewhere. Maybe it’s true of a particular club or venue but I doubt that too. Word would get around and the offender would be corrected, I hope.
I'm a leader, and I haven’t gotten the annoying feedback that some on this forum have experienced, so take this with a grain of salt. The only complaints I've heard from followers about that sort of thing were pretty exceptional, and after word got around, the offender learned to cool down. I think he probably meant to be helpful.
It’s true that West Coast could use practicas, but where I live most WCS classes are either followed by on-site dancing or by everybody heading to a particular local nightclub. In a way these serve as practicas because it's a chance to use the moves they just learned, but it’s also social dancing (in front of observers, at the night club) and that makes being corrected on the floor a bit more embarrassing.
Some teaching of beginners by their partners is hard to avoid, since West Coast is an asymmetric dance and it has elements that the follower cannot possibly deduce just from the lead. She simply has to know about them in advance.
For instance, in a left side pass the lead is a single step -- back and off the slot. All the rest is up to the follower. If she doesn't walk it out as expected, the leader may figure she's unclear on the concept and try to advise her.
Also, there’s a confusing number of ways to do basic things in WCS. The J lead for whips, for instance, is widely used in Texas but scorned in other places. For some leaders, a basic whip requires stepping forward on 2 toward the head of the slot and immediately catching the follower. In another city most leaders will step back on 2 and wait for her to walk into their right arm.
Then there's that coaster step in ballroom WCS instead of an anchor. In one post, the follower said a leader complained that she had come forward too soon. Done wrong, a coaster can cause her to step forward on 6 and lose the tension needed for a good lead on 1, so some leaders may want to correct the partner.
Finally, one post mentioned a leader objecting to the follower's play. I don't want to get into that except to say that there are different views on the subject. If it reaches a point that the leader feels he's not able to lead anything because the follower is always taking off on her own, he’s likely to complain. I saw one leader raise his right arm and look at his watch while the follower, on his left arm, kept playing.

[jennyisdancing]

Some teaching of beginners by their partners is hard to avoid, since West Coast is an asymmetric dance and it has elements that the follower cannot possibly deduce just from the lead. She simply has to know about them in advance.
For instance, in a left side pass the lead is a single step -- back and off the slot. All the rest is up to the follower. If she doesn't walk it out as expected, the leader may figure she's unclear on the concept and try to advise her.


Okay, well, in theory, the follower should say no to a WCS dance if she doesn't even know the most basic steps. But if she tells the leader "I don't really know WCS, can you help me out/talk me through it/let's just try it and have fun", that's fine, if he agrees. If there's no explicit discussion, and the leader simply recognizes that she doesn't know the basics, then he should offer, diplomatically, to explain a few things, not dictate or assume the role of teacher. If your follower doesn't want your help, my opinion is basically just to lead whatever is leadable with her. If that means you can't do a side pass, so be it. Stay in closed position more, lead turns if she can do them, etc.

However, some of the complaints are not about this. It's about being an experienced dancer (or at least knowing the basics decently) and still getting critiqued, talked to, bossed around, etc. on the dance floor. That's just not cool.

[Ray Sison]

However, some of the complaints are not about this. It's about being an experienced dancer (or at least knowing the basics decently) and still getting critiqued, talked to, bossed around, etc. on the dance floor. That's just not cool.

Yeah, it's not. Very true...

[Dancelf]

Grr...


Some teaching of beginners by their partners is hard to avoid, since West Coast is an asymmetric dance and it has elements that the follower cannot possibly deduce just from the lead. She simply has to know about them in advance.
For instance, in a left side pass the lead is a single step -- back and off the slot. All the rest is up to the follower.

I know it's gone out of vogue, but it turns out that beginning followers CAN deduce their movement if you lead all of the steps, instead of just one.

Dancing with beginners is a skill that can be learned.

</quixote>

[jennyisdancing]

Grr...



I know it's gone out of vogue, but it turns out that beginning followers CAN deduce their movement if you lead all of the steps, instead of just one.

Dancing with beginners is a skill that can be learned.

</quixote>

:cheers:

I really like the way you put that. I can't stand the harrumphy attitude of some folks, as in, "I spent X number of years and Y number of dollars on lessons to learn this dance properly, and I won't lower myself to dance with someone who doesn't take it seriously." Oh brother. :rolleyes:

I mean, sure I want to dance with good people, and I too have put much effort into developing my skill. But what's so bad about just putting a smile on someone's face? Maybe that person will never take lessons or get good at it. So what if that happens? (Assuming no one is getting hurt). Social dance is supposed to be about fun.

[basicarita]

Anyway, I asked a guy to dance. He gave me a skeptical look and said "do you really know West Coast? How many lessons have you had?"
That's usually a bad sign, and at that point I should have just changed my mind but I figured, okay, I asked him, so I should go through with it.

So we start dancing. I did some syncopations to express the music, and he patronizingly said "that's not bad", kind of like he hadn't expected me to know or do anything at all. It was somewhat hard to follow him because he didn't anchor or give connection. He was just sort of doing his own moves. So I did the best I could. (I don't have trouble following other leaders at various levels).

Then he starts trying to teach me and correct me. At that point I lost it. I told him I couldn't dance with him if he was going to try to teach me on the floor. Of course he got offended and said "well, you should learn how to dance". Then he walked off in a huff. Boy, that sure was the capper to my stressful week. Glad the other dancers there were nice.

Yes, I'm thinking the lesson there is definitely "do not ignore your intuition".
:D

[Angel HI]

Originally Posted by jennyisdancing http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=738097#post738097)
"Then he starts trying to teach me and correct me. At that point I lost it. I told him I couldn't dance with him if he was going to try to teach me on the floor. Of course he got offended and said "well, you should learn how to dance". Then he walked off in a huff. Boy, that sure was the capper to my stressful week. Glad the other dancers there were nice."


And, this is the kind of thing that prompted 'Me' to start this thread. It's horrid!

I've posted before that one of my partner's fav sayings is that you are not an advanced dancer until you can dance well with a newbie.

[rbazsz]

I had to laugh when I read the opening to this thread because I have had just the opposite experience. In WCS there seems to be an abundance of followers that are bossy, overly assertive, or just plain unpleasant.

There have been some good theories in this thread about why WCS leads are like that but I can assure you it's no difference for us leads.

Most of the time what the follower tells me is a valid suggestion so I try to do it as best I can (unless she is rude the way she tells me). In WCS I have had many partners that were far less pleasant and basically let me know that if I can't do what she wanted I suck.

So, the culture of WCS does seem to foster bossiness from both leads and followers. I don't know why.

[wiseman]

There have been some good theories in this thread about why WCS leads are like that but I can assure you it's no difference for us leads.

Agreed. And it's not just in WCS. I deal with it A LOT in Salsa. Very annoying, indeed. I mean, come on. This should be a fun activity. Why all the bossing?? Good grief!!

[jennyisdancing]

Agreed. And it's not just in WCS. I deal with it A LOT in Salsa. Very annoying, indeed. I mean, come on. This should be a fun activity. Why all the bossing?? Good grief!!

Agreed. If someone wants technical perfection and/or only wants to dance with people at their level, they should stick to competition or join a performance team. Social dancing is not the right avenue for that type of person IMO.

[wiseman]

Agreed. If someone wants technical perfection and/or only wants to dance with people at their level, they should stick to competition or join a performance team. Social dancing is not the right avenue for that type of person IMO.

Yup, exactly. It's the imperfections in social dancing that make it fun. :)

I have yet to see even instructors or professional dancers that are perfect when social dancing. There will always be mistakes because it's a spontaneous dance.

[Ray Sison]

Agreed. If someone wants technical perfection and/or only wants to dance with people at their level, they should stick to competition or join a performance team. Social dancing is not the right avenue for that type of person IMO.

jennyisdancing, I whole heartedly agree... :cheers:

[kmaitland]

:cheers:

I really like the way you put that. I can't stand the harrumphy attitude of some folks, as in, "I spent X number of years and Y number of dollars on lessons to learn this dance properly, and I won't lower myself to dance with someone who doesn't take it seriously." Oh brother. :rolleyes:

I mean, sure I want to dance with good people, and I too have put much effort into developing my skill. But what's so bad about just putting a smile on someone's face? Maybe that person will never take lessons or get good at it. So what if that happens? (Assuming no one is getting hurt). Social dance is supposed to be about fun.

I had to beat that out of one advanced level guy I knew in my WCS. As I told him, " If you don't dance with beginners they will STAY beginners and you will end up with fewer and fewer people to dance with. Besides, this is Toronto - the bulk of the beginners here are coming in with knowledge of another dance (Ballroom, Salsa...) so they may have something to teach you!"

Luckily, he got the message.

[kmaitland]

Anyway, I asked a guy to dance. He gave me a skeptical look and said "do you really know West Coast? How many lessons have you had?"
That's usually a bad sign, and at that point I should have just changed my mind but I figured, okay, I asked him, so I should go through with it.

So we start dancing. I did some syncopations to express the music, and he patronizingly said "that's not bad", kind of like he hadn't expected me to know or do anything at all. ...

Then he starts trying to teach me and correct me. At that point I lost it. I told him I couldn't dance with him if he was going to try to teach me on the floor. Of course he got offended and said "well, you should learn how to dance".
:D
:D Been there done that. But this is not just a WCS thing. I recall being at Toronto Salsa Practice and asking a guy to dance. He looks me up and down (I am not a small woman) and asks "What Level are you?"

I was aghast. And annoyed. So I said, "I am intermediate level American Style Ballroom, intermediate level ECS and WCS, beginner Lindy Hop. I do a basic lead in foxtrot, waltz, cha cha and merenque, intermediate level lead for ECS. And I learned all that AFTER I did Salsa. So you tell me"

So he danced with me and he could not lead for ....

Whether its swing or latin or ballroom, give me a leader or follower who can do a solid basic over a schmuck who thinks s/he is G-d's gift anyday.

[Dancelf]

If you don't dance with beginners they will STAY beginners and you will end up with fewer and fewer people to dance with.

"No matter how good you get, there will always be more people to dance with who are worse than you are than who are better than you are."

[tsb]

I had to laugh when I read the opening to this thread because I have had just the opposite experience. In WCS there seems to be an abundance of followers that are bossy, overly assertive, or just plain unpleasant.

There have been some good theories in this thread about why WCS leads are like that but I can assure you it's no difference for us leads.

Most of the time what the follower tells me is a valid suggestion so I try to do it as best I can (unless she is rude the way she tells me). In WCS I have had many partners that were far less pleasant and basically let me know that if I can't do what she wanted I suck.

So, the culture of WCS does seem to foster bossiness from both leads and followers. I don't know why.

someone i would fondly describe as my dance godmother once told me:

"i love west coast swing, but i don't like a lot of the people who dance it."

everyone dances for different reasons, and i've learned not to assume that the next person has the same motivations/expectations and, most significantly, understanding of and respect for dance etiquette, especially when it comes to club dances; many if not most "club" dance venues (at least here in LA, anyway) sell alcohol which is their greatest source of profit, and the consumption of alcohol generally decreases levels of courteous behavior.

[Steve Pastor]

I happened across a recently (2008 )published book about CW dancing in LA during the peak of country western dancing days. There's a great statement about West Coast Swing dancers, that is just a bit too naughty to relate. Basically, it has to do with how we rank each other as dancers, or, the pecking order. Can't say anymore here since I'd probably have to moderate myself.

The book is "Pablo Stories" by Paul McClure, and I'm really enjoying it.
(Of course WCS and Western Swing is a subject of research for me, so it fits right in there.)

[plugger]

I'm a little surprised to read complaints of West Coast Swing dancers being bossy and critical. My experience (as a leader, so I admit that I don't see it from both sides) is that most good WCS dancers will dance at least once or twice with whoever asks them, and try to adjust to partner's abilities. Along with country-western, WCS is one of the most democratic (with a small "d") dances I know of. Locally, it's a lot less formal than some others.

It should go without saying that you can't presume to dance all night with someone far more advanced who is there mainly to dance with his or her peers. But many will dance with you at least once in an evening, and if you're a beginner that's something to appreciate and enjoy.

The first time I danced two-step with an expert, she began this seemingly endless series of spins which had me in a panic until I figured out that I'd better lower my left hand. She knew exactly what had happened and just smiled at me for the mistake. Those are invaluable learning experiences, and she managed to teach me a lesson without speaking a word!

I suspect that the rude ones, the unasked-for teachers-on-the-floor, get socially quarantined pretty quickly until they change their ways. I hope so.

[jennyisdancing]

I'm a little surprised to read complaints of West Coast Swing dancers being bossy and critical. My experience (as a leader, so I admit that I don't see it from both sides) is that most good WCS dancers will dance at least once or twice with whoever asks them, and try to adjust to partner's abilities. Along with country-western, WCS is one of the most democratic (with a small "d") dances I know of. Locally, it's a lot less formal than some others.

It should go without saying that you can't presume to dance all night with someone far more advanced who is there mainly to dance with his or her peers. But many will dance with you at least once in an evening, and if you're a beginner that's something to appreciate and enjoy.

The first time I danced two-step with an expert, she began this seemingly endless series of spins which had me in a panic until I figured out that I'd better lower my left hand. She knew exactly what had happened and just smiled at me for the mistake. Those are invaluable learning experiences, and she managed to teach me a lesson without speaking a word!

I suspect that the rude ones, the unasked-for teachers-on-the-floor, get socially quarantined pretty quickly until they change their ways. I hope so.

I wish it were so, but it doesn't happen. People are too afraid to do anything, or some folks are so eager to keep dancing that they won't turn anyone down.

I have mixed feelings about the situation you described during a two-step. If the lady was a professional teacher, I guess her approach might be okay. If she wasn't, then I don't know...you didn't seem to mind, but depending on the situation it might come across like she was trying to embarrass you.

[Steve Pastor]

One of my favorite dance partners is, shall we say, irrepressible, especially during West Coast Swing. Often the guys end up looking at her with a sort of dazed look.
At the same time, she will rarely turn anyone down when they ask her to dance.

One of the instructors at "my" CW place will definately "hijack" things at times.

I will lead things that some of my new partners probably have never been asked to do before. The ones who see it as being "playful", who laugh and don't let it bother them, become repeat partners.

There is no malice in any of us. We are just doing what we do, while observing the response we get from our partner, and taking it from there.

Some women have told me that they like doing WCS with me because if they do something different, they know I will handle it somehow.

Bet this advanced female dancer noted that you were a good sport about the whole thing.

Is this non-verbal teaching?
Yeah, I guess it is.

As far as verbal teaching goes...
Have personally had many, many experiences both trying to share information, and women trying to share information.
I keep reminding myself that I am dancing socially, and try to work with what I get from my partners, and leave it at that.

I've been taking lessons again, and we'll see how well I;ve learned my lesson.

It should go without saying that you can't presume to dance all night with someone far more advanced who is there mainly to dance with his or her peers. But many will dance with you at least once in an evening, and if you're a beginner that's something to appreciate and enjoy.
Very wise words.

[Ray Sison]

I'm a little surprised to read complaints of West Coast Swing dancers being bossy and critical. My experience (as a leader, so I admit that I don't see it from both sides) is that most good WCS dancers will dance at least once or twice with whoever asks them, and try to adjust to partner's abilities. Along with country-western, WCS is one of the most democratic (with a small "d") dances I know of. Locally, it's a lot less formal than some others.

It should go without saying that you can't presume to dance all night with someone far more advanced who is there mainly to dance with his or her peers. But many will dance with you at least once in an evening, and if you're a beginner that's something to appreciate and enjoy.

The first time I danced two-step with an expert, she began this seemingly endless series of spins which had me in a panic until I figured out that I'd better lower my left hand. She knew exactly what had happened and just smiled at me for the mistake. Those are invaluable learning experiences, and she managed to teach me a lesson without speaking a word!

I suspect that the rude ones, the unasked-for teachers-on-the-floor, get socially quarantined pretty quickly until they change their ways. I hope so.

I'm not surprised because I do not think it is possible to generalize about most things, including a particular dance and the crowd that goes with that dance. It can vary from place to place. So good venues are to be treasured...

[SadKumquat]

Thanks for the recommendation, Steve. It looks like my kind of history...