What makes a good follow?

[Liz076]

I've always wondered what the leads thought:
What makes a good follow? What is it that leads are looking for when sitting on the sidelines, watching the follows on the dancefloor?

--Just curious!! :wink:

[SDsalsaguy]

Hi Liz,

Do you mean specifically as regards swing, or is this regarding following in general?

—Jonathan

[Liz076]

I'm sorry for not specifying. :wink: I meant following in general. :lol:

[SDsalsaguy]

In that case I'm going to move this thread over to the general discussion forum for the moment and, when I have some time later, will provide some of my opinions.

[Vince A]

A follower should:

-Look you in the eye . . .
-Don't anticipate what is coming . . .
-Don't coaster step (WCS, that's stepping off on count 1 before the leader initiates it) . . .
-Have compression, but not strong-arms, nor spaghetti-arms . . .
-Keep their frame . . .
-Have great come-backs (comedy) if they miss a pattern . . . like "Sorry, I didn't attend that class"
-Not correct the leader . . . (I don't mind this if I'm dancing with a teacher or Pro)
-Finally, lay back, wipe off the sweat, light a cigarette, and say "thank you."

JUST KIDDING!!! . . . MissAlyssa will surely get me for this one!

[SDsalsaguy]

Well, at the risk of being overly reductionistic, what a good follower should do is follow! As far as the original question of what do I look for from off the floor, well, a couple of things come to mind…

:arrow: If she’s not already dancing, the 1st thing I look at is footwear (yes, seriously!). Some type of dance shoe – be it ballroom to jazz sneaker – puts someone on my radar whereas 2” cork platforms knocks them right off it. [Note: this initial assessment can be over-ridden in two manners: 1. you already know the person in question and know their ability, or 2. you see how they actually dance later on.]

:arrow: If she’s already dancing, then my next set of “criteria” includes body motion and timing. Does her *body* actually move – i.e., is she dancing or just doing steps with arms, legs, torso, etc., still not connected and integrated? Mind you, there’s absolutely nothing “wrong” with this – hell, I was in that stage longer then I’d care to admit – but it is not what I am currently looking for with a prospective dance partner. Similarly, if the motion seems to be there that’s what counts for me, not how “advanced” the choreography is, etc.,...On the timing side, I look to see that the body motion, and at least the feet, are in sync with the music. If not then its pretty easy to discern if this mismatch is being generated by the leader – if so, she’s still on the radar, if not, well, not.

:arrow: Another crucial factor is “does she enjoy it?” – basically this one comes down to facial expression…if its all scrunched up trying to concentrate on G-d knows what, well, that’s all well and good, but its also not for me. I look to see that someone is smiling and enjoying themselves. If there’s a “mistake,” do they freeze/panic/look mortified, or respond more positively? Such positives can, of course, take different forms, ranging from laughing at one’s own misstep while coming back on time (as per above) to asking the leader how that should have worked.

:arrow: Finally, is she dancing *with* her partner? This involves any number of variables including, but not limited to” eye contact, responsiveness, degree and style of “styling”, etc. – Its one thing for her to be adding in her own flair, its another if she’s missing leads because she’s so busy doing her own thing. So, in essence, is she following 1st and *then* styling?

...have to run at the moment, but thought I'd start with what I look for from off the floor.

[MissAlyssa]

a follower should never assume that the leader is going to push/pull them into any certain movement and should never backlead.

[DanceMentor]

In smooth dancing, being able to follow with the body and less with the frame has become increasingly important. The frame becomes "ornamental" while the true following is done through the body. This includes:
-movement forward and backward
-CBM and twisting the torso
-up and down, falling and rising through the legs

[MissAlyssa]

true, because if your frame goes...your body should be there too lol :lol:

[pygmalion]

I'd like to share my experience with learning to follow.

When I had been dancing about three months, I started hearing compliments from my fellow students and many of the teachers I danced with. "Oh Jenn, you're so much fun to dance with. You can follow anything. You feel so light." It was a great ego boost for me, because I was trying very hard to carry my own body weight and move myself on the floor, rather than lean on the leader.

Then I switched coaches. About half way through my first lesson with him, he made me get into dance position, close my eyes, and attempt to follow him. I bumped into him, then he bumped into me. Then we did rumba walks at an arms length. I bumped into him, then he bumped into me. Then we did walkaround turns. I finished my turn and looked. He hadn't turned yet.

After a few weeks of these experiences, a light bulb went off for me. Following is waiting. Following is waiting. No matter how many cool moves I have, I have to wait until the lead opens a space for me with his body. Then I can fill that space anyway I want.

What a humbling experience that was for me. All this time I thought I was following, but I was, at best, doing patterns simultaneously with the lead. At worst, I was getting a visual signal, then leading the pattern myself.

The irony is that many of the guys who used to think I was a great follow, don't think so anymore. Instead of being right there with them every step of the way, I'm trying to be a microscopic step behind. I'm waiting.

And while I freely admit that I'm still a relatively poor follow, I'm a whole lot better than I was last year. And I'm growing.

[msc]

I guess it depends on the lead. I prefer the follow to be very aggressive when stepping forward, but not pull away when stepping backward (this is more for Latin/Standard dances, not the social ones.) If you can feel your partner's center through the connection, it helps a lot ... but to really do that, you both need a great deal of strong technique.

[Vince A]

pygmalion,
I'm not sure if it's more of 'waiting' versus not anticipating! In a sense, if you are not anticipating the lead's move, you are waiting - kinda sorta, maybe?

His center should be aimed at your center, which is aimed at his center , but higher toward his chin. This keeps you 'up' and ready! If the lead brings you down his R side for a right-side-pass, by ct 2, you should know what to do and you can do anything you want, as long as you are in place and anchoring by cts 5 & 6.

There are many exceptions to this - a hi-jack . . . the count goes to 8 or more . . . he gives you time to play (and until you anchor and when you do, you are signalling to him "OK, now I'm ready for a (ct) 1." He shouldn't pull you off until you let him know this . . .

Be light, don't break frame, and don't anticipate . . . and play, play, play!

[pygmalion]

Hey Vince A!

Thanks for the visual on where to point my center. I never thought of it that way, but I bet, if I try it, my posture will improve a lot. Will try.

There are many exceptions to this - a hi-jack . . . the count goes to 8 or more . . . he gives you time to play (and until you anchor and when you do, you are signalling to him "OK, now I'm ready for a (ct) 1

This part, I'm already working on. This is where I insert my soon-to-be-legendary "pause and hippy shake" move. Fun! Oh, and I forgot the killer "attitude look and throw him a kiss." :lol:

Jenn

[Liz076]

My post got so many replies, that was really cool!! :D I was talking to my teacher about the assets of a good follow and she did mention most of the characteristics listed in the above threads. The main thing I try to focus on is feeling like I'm dancing WITH the lead instead of either against him, or off in my own little world. In my beginning days, I had the bad habit of dancing on my own. I was corrected throughout time!! :lol:
I think another thing that helps me is learning to lead. I've been working on leading east coast swing, lindy, and collegiate shag. I feel like I can get a feel for what the leads need from me. AND, it's a lot of fun to finally have the control! ha ha haaa!! :wink:

Just kidding, guys!

[pygmalion]

Liz076,

This is a great topic. It's nice to hear from both leads and follows on this one. (Come to think of it, maybe I'll go to the learning to lead thread and put in my 2 cents worth! :D )

Yeah. Learning a bit about leading has helped me, too. When I was first learning triple swing, my teacher kept telling me to keep my weight forward on the rock step. I tried it, but didn't really get it. Then I took one group class and did the leaders part. Wow. As soon as I felt how heavy a certain follow felt when she went back over her heels, I understood immediately.

Nothing beats walking a mile in the other person's shoes!

[Vince A]

pygmalion,

I'd like to see those moves . . . "pause and a hippy shake," and a killer "attitiude look and throw a kiss." I bet you make those moves look great!

And on the subject of switching roles . . . my dancing did go up a notch or two after I learned to follow. I used to complain how much the lead had to do . . . have a move in mind, begin to execute it, lead it thoughout, put the follow where he hopes they will go, stay on the music, and have at least the next three moves ready to go . . . but I don't complain anymore after learning to follow. It's a partnership on the floor. Both have their part to do . . .

[pygmalion]

I'd like to see those moves . . . "pause and a hippy shake," and a killer "attitiude look and throw a kiss." I bet you make those moves look great!

Many thanks! :) And if you think those sound good, you should see the new one I'm working on. It's called the "slink and wink." :lol: I'm using your body rolls expertise.

[Vince A]

pygmalion,
A "slink and wink?" Sounds 'sexy.'

I have my favorites and ones that I've made up, and they all come out of the music that being played . . . you know . . . " the music made me do it."

I love to put the follower into a move, like a behind a neck whip with a pause, maybe on a 'break,' and, at the very last second . . . I step out of the move! You should see the looks I get. Like . . . "what the heck are YOU doing?"

You see . . . a lot of the followers around here like to "hi-jack" the leader, and this is my way of getting back with them . . . it's all done in a very playful manner. Nothing uncalled for! Absolute FUN!

My dancing has taken on a whole new perspective since May, and I'm not sure has caused it!

[d nice]

I'd like to share my experience with learning to follow.
Following is waiting. Following is waiting. No matter how many cool moves I have, I have to wait until the lead opens a space for me with his body. Then I can fill that space anyway I want.

Marry me!

[pygmalion]

A "slink and wink?" Sounds 'sexy.'

Oh yes. Sexy is definitely the goal. :) That's the coolest thing about WCS. You can get away with so much more than any other dance, if you have the nerve. I like to use lots of facial expressions, too. Adds to the flirtatious look I want. And an occasional hip or shoulder shake at the right time makes it all so much better. What fun! :D


My dancing has taken on a whole new perspective since May, and I'm not sure has caused it!

I LOVE it when that happens. You're going along, minding your own business, on a dance plateau, and all of a sudden bang! The lights go on, and everything feels different. It's great.

[Vince A]

Yeppers . . and when those "lights go on," your confidence goes sky high.
Dancing takes on a whole new demension!

[pygmalion]

Marry me! :oops: :shock: :D :D :D

I'd like to share my experience with learning to follow.
Following is waiting. Following is waiting. No matter how many cool moves I have, I have to wait until the lead opens a space for me with his body. Then I can fill that space anyway I want.

Seems so simple, doesn't it. But until you get it, it's not simple at all. I'm sure there are still some pieces of this concept I don't get. But what I do know, has changed my dance style completely. Pretty empowering. :D

[Vince A]

pygmalion,
You may not have all the pieces, but you certainly have acknowledged that they exist, which means, now you can go after them because you know what they look like!

Just remember to let your feet and your body "play" to the music. Sometimes your feet (a foot) goes first, sometimes your body goes first, sometimes they go at the the same time, and sometimes, they go in opposite directions at the same time!

Get all of that???

There is no right or wrong, no correct way to do it, no perfect way to dance!

Be there for your lead! Play, hi-jack and take the lead away, but be sure you give it back, and then anchor to tell him you're ready to go again.

Don't count . . . unless you are an absolute beginner. The reason I say don't count, is because how can you count to something that you don't know what is going to happen. Listen . . . "hear" the music . . . react to the music . . . it will tell you what to do! Learn the music . . .

[pygmalion]

Vince A.

I say it again. You're a wonderful human being. :D :D :D :D :D

[Vince A]

Vince A.

I say it again. You're a wonderful human being. :D :D :D :D :D
Thank you . . . I wish we could do a WCS together!!!

[pygmalion]

One day, we will. It would be so cool to arrange a dance-forums get-together somewhere, one of these days. :D

But either way, one day, I will arrange to get out to the wonderful west coast and dance with you.


...after I perfect the slink and wink! :D :D :D

[Vince A]

Once you learn to apply that "play" . . the slink and wink perfected too . . . you will venture out like you cannot believe.

You will dance like you have never danced before . . .

It's very tough for me to leave any dance floor . . . good thing I built one in my house to practice on!

Remember . . . "learn" the music . . . "hear" the music . . . "be" the dancer.

[youngsta]

I LOVE it when that happens. You're going along, minding your own business, on a dance plateau, and all of a sudden bang! The lights go on, and everything feels different. It's great.
Oh man I thought I was the only one who hit the dreaded 'dance plateau'! When that happens to me I stop doing workshops and working on new moves. It means I have to digest all the info in my head. When the lights do finally come on again it is such a high!!

[pygmalion]

Yeah. Me too. Like this week, for example, I've taken off completely. No work, no lessons, no coaching. (Although, as you can probably see, I've thought about dance a lot :D ) I just haven't danced. I bet, when I go to my lesson Monday, I'll be fresh and ready to go!

[Vince A]

I took the week off too! Since there was a competition in San Jose last weekend . . . this is the week to catch up. However, I've practiced all week . . . never a dull, non-dancing moment around this house!!!

[pygmalion]

Okay.

I gotta be honest. I didn't do any goal-oriented practice. I did my dancing randomly around the livingroom dance, my dancing in the supermarket aisles dance, and of course, my usual car dancing. Does that count? :D

[Vince A]

Ditto!

That shopping cart at the grocery store is such a great follower :wink:

[SDsalsaguy]

That shopping cart at the grocery store is such a great follower :wink: Yeah....but deffinately needs to work on keeping its part tighter when on the inside of pivots! :lol:

[Vince A]

That shopping cart at the grocery store is such a great follower :wink: Yeah....but deffinately needs to work on keeping its part tighter when on the inside of pivots! :lol:
"And really needs some practice on those check steps!"

[pygmalion]

Okay, so here are some questions for you. Can a good follow compensate for a bad lead? How much responsibility can she take before she's stealing the lead? Is backleading really such a bad thing?

[msc]

I think it's easier in the open position social dances. I've seen a lot of advanced WCS follows have fun with a very stiff lead, they'll just style their hearts out and the lead is just happy to be on the floor, so it sort of works. Probably a little harder to adjust to an off time bad lead in salsa though. Same thing is true in ballroom, a weak lead doesn't limit as much in Latin as it does in Standard, until you get to the closed position moves, like say a Samba roll. Actually a lead can be sort of so-so in Smooth, and still be OK, since so much is open position.

[Vince A]

Okay, so here are some questions for you. Can a good follow compensate for a bad lead? How much responsibility can she take before she's stealing the lead? Is backleading really such a bad thing?
This is THE ONLY time you women let take charge, so for goodness sakes, don't take that away from us :wink:
Now, you know I'm kidding of course . . . my belief is "do" what you want during the move, pattern, etc., but be there with an anchor to tell him that you are ready to go and that he can proceed with count . . . . by the way . . . make him beg for it too!

[Legato Bluesummers]

Blind obedience.....lol.

And someone that likes to play with the music...