bribing judges in comps

[cl5814]

I know this (supposedly) professional dancer, let's call him X, that bribes people on a daily basis to get things done. He is extremely wealthy so money is no problem and i mean, no problem. He seems to be doing well in the professional ranks, but i am wondering how much bribing does he do in order to get the results he wants. He is also a control freak making me more believe that he is capable of it. From the websites of comps that i have checked, the list of judges seem to be published for everyone to see. Do you think this is a problem in the competition world - maybe not as much in the amateur world as in the professional world ? Would we ever know if this is a problem - obviously he can just pay people to keep quiet, for the right amount of money, who wouldn't do it ? Is this fair towards the other competitors ? Would there be any solution to this ?

My intention is not to try and spread negative word, but couldn't help wondering about it. I am a social dancer with no intention of competing, so this is not a jealousy issue.

[etchuck]

That's fascinating. Certainly I think that the judges' lists should always be made public anyway, especially if you're having world-class competitors act as your judges.

Short of the usual requests for more solid evidence for bribery, it may be that this person really has that much money that he takes a ton of lessons with the "right people". Of course, it's purely speculation... he may actually be that good (though I guess you have your doubts). I agree with you though that you could expect him to behave that way, but it's still no guarantee that it happens.

Of course, the scrutineering of ballroom dance competitions is such that six to ten judges mark for their favorite couples to advance and then rank them. I would be interested in a system that "drops" top and bottom scores (if that were at all possible), like they have it in gymnastics, as opposed to the slightly more corruptible system that can occur with ballroom dancing (which is in essence the same as figure skating before the SLC Olympics scandal).

Is it fair to have this sort of underhanded politics govern advancement or enjoyment of a competitive sport? No. But, short of a massive scandal or major overhaul, I don't see that it will change.

I was in the midst of discussing whether various sports like gymnastics or figure skating were actually sports. One of the criteria that it is NOT a sport (as opposed to football or basketball) is the following question: does smiling make a difference in your activity? If it does, it's not (as they consider) a sport. So similarly, if your relationship with a judge makes a difference in the outcome of the competition, it's not a sport.

Okay... maybe I should have moved that to a different topic...

[cl5814]

Of course, the scrutineering of ballroom dance competitions is such that six to ten judges mark for their favorite couples to advance and then rank them. I would be interested in a system that "drops" top and bottom scores (if that were at all possible), like they have it in gymnastics, as opposed to the slightly more corruptible system that can occur with ballroom dancing (which is in essence the same as figure skating before the SLC Olympics scandal).


I guess i should have mentioned in my original post that i was also interested in possible solutions to the potential problem. In light of this, the gymnastics system sounds like a better idea. At least we agree that the ballroom competition system is corruptible as it stands. Why do you think it is a good idea to have the list of judges published so far in advance ? Wouldn't it prevent problems like this if judges are only announced at the beginning of the event at a competition ?

[DanceAm]

There is so much inherintly wrong with Dancesport Judging that I don't believe this to be a problem. This person would have to sway many judge's marks unless he is really good. And continuing to favor a certain couple would send up a red flag after some time that it would start to get noticed.

What I see wrong with the judging is that the coaches and judges are the same person. It would seem that yes, going directly to the judge to see why they mark you the way they do is good feedback to do better next time. But if a couple gets regular coachings from that judge, how could he not favor that couple. If the couple didn't do better after repeated coachings, why would they stay with that coach. And if they left a coach for another, wouldn't the coach/judge be a little miffed at the couple switching? What some people call political actually seems personal.

By and large I think judges accurately assess marks and call them as they see them. It is hard to be totally objective, but that is why the panel consists of more than a couple judges at that level.

The system isn't perfect, but no judged sport is. Even officials at football and baseball games make mistakes, we are all only human.

Bribing is a serious accusation and though it could happen, I don't think it needs to be discussed without actual proof. I recommend that this thread be monitored to make sure no one is mentioned or even referred to, like so and so danced at this comp. I am even wondering if bribery should be discussed at all. The chance to discredit someone is too great.

[Vince A]

Okay... maybe I should have moved that to a different topic...
I think it's quite relevant.

Bribing is a serious accusation and though it could happen, I don't think it needs to be discussed without actual proof. I recommend that this thread be monitored to make sure no one is mentioned or even referred to, like so and so danced at this comp. I am even wondering if bribery should be discussed at all. The chance to discredit someone is too great.
I agree with this too!

It has been edited, and is being monitored!

[etchuck]

I bring up figure skating because if it weren't for the flap about the Olympics Pairs competition, no one probably would have cared about "bribery" and "influence" in judging that event. I'm sure people have swapped votes and made secret pacts among themselves in the past years.

I would have to state first off that apparent teacher-student conflicts of interest must be dealt with, and that in my opinion it is entirely inappropriate for teachers to evaluate their current students, or past students (if they have taken lessons within the last year). In my opinion, competitors must and should declare who has taught them in the last year (minimum requirement of say one hour a week, or 30 total hours in a year). This is required for many other artistic competitions of which I have observed (namely, piano competitions). The system for the Cleveland Piano competition is the most complex I've encountered, but their jury consists of something like 11 people, with each judge recusing themselves as needed... but statistics are performed on all their marks, and the top people advance according to the bell-curved/recentered scores.

Personally, I would like a cumulative ranking system. Accumulate points towards a final tally. So, let's say we have 30 competitors in an event. We split the field to two preliminary rounds of 15, from which you want to pair down to 12 overall. So, have the judges eventually recall 12. The semifinal: have judges award points from 12 to 1 (12 = best) to the couples they want to see advance to the next round, and those couples with the top 6 scores advance. With the final ranking round, have the judges rate 6 to 1 (6 = best). Tabulate the scores as follows: semifinals + 2x(finals). Tiebreaker goes to the final round score, scrutineered as usual. [Basically, I'm asking a full 1-12 ranking at semifinal level, with results publicly disclosed, then have that ranking make a difference in the final... you don't have to do a reverse ballot-tally like I'm asking here...]

Unfortunately, experimental scoring systems like this won't ever happen because there isn't really a lot of interest in playing around with such a system.

PS... oh... you can probably publish the names of the entire jury, but use only a subset of judges for each event. On the other hand, I would rather the entire jury evaluate all events but have them tell me whether they should be recused for those purposes.

As a competition organizer, it would be my responsibility to find judges that would render my event as objective and high-quality as possible. I wouldn't want any apparent hint of conflict of interest to corrupt my results. (I say this having organized state championship and national championship competitions, but not for dance.)

I would also publicly announce all apparent conflicts of interest, including listing all instructors that a competitor has learned from in the last year... (and NOT publicly, any judges that the competitor feels may rank his/her performance unfairly).

[cl5814]

Okay... maybe I should have moved that to a different topic...
I think it's quite relevant.

Bribing is a serious accusation and though it could happen, I don't think it needs to be discussed without actual proof. I recommend that this thread be monitored to make sure no one is mentioned or even referred to, like so and so danced at this comp. I am even wondering if bribery should be discussed at all. The chance to discredit someone is too great.
I agree with this too!

It has been edited, and is being monitored!

I agree that bribery is serious therefore my question to you open-minded adults. The intention of the thread was never to discredit anyone or any comp, i would not get anything out of it, in any case. I think we all agree that it could happen, money is the root of all evil things.

[KevinL]

Do you think this is a problem in the competition world - maybe not as much in the amateur world as in the professional world ?

I know very little about any form of competitive dance, either professional or amatuer.

Would we ever know if this is a problem - obviously he can just pay people to keep quiet, for the right amount of money, who wouldn't do it ?

For the right amount of money? Sure, for the right amount of money someone might risk their professional careers, they might risk embarassing the sport that they have spent years supporting and building, they might risk never being able to judge again once the scandal breaks.

As for who wouldn't accept bribes, I would think that professionals who have a vested interest in their sport being positive and scandal-free would not accept bribes. I personally only know one judge, and I have the utmost faith in her neutrality and ability to see past such blatent attempts at illegal activity.

On the other hand, what competitor in their right mind would offer a bribe to an official? All that official would need to do is report the behaviour and that competitior would never win again. Who would risk such a thing?

Is this fair towards the other competitors ?

The world is not fair. Some people have the money to take hours and hours of lessons. Some people are physically more fit for competitive dance. Would brinbing judges be fair? No, obviuosly not, but I doubt that it happens.

Would there be any solution to this ?

Sure there would be a solution, if this was a real problem. Allow the judges to keep any bribe offered as long as they turn in the bribing competitor. That way the judge gets financial reward while decimating the career of the person so desparate as to offer a bribe. Of course I doubt that any judges would actually keep the tainted money, but that is a different story, isn't it?

=====

Hmm, this topic seems to have annoyed me. I think it goes back to that "What makes a Pro?" thread. Professional behaviour makes a professional and bribing, or accepting bribes, is not professional behaviour.

Kevin

[Vince A]

Bribery is very serious, and yes you are right - anything could happen.

You know with email handles (posting names) and cities shown . . . anyone can be traced, right?

So the next time you're getting ready to go out on the floor to compete, look around and make sure Tonya Harding is standing near you!!! J/K!

[Adwiz]

I have always found judges to work very hard at being fair. In fact, at one comp I overheard a judge hoping that the other judges agreed with her assessment. It occurred to me that the judges are also worried about how they are perceived by their peers. If their marks are wildly different from others, it could potentially impact them negatively.

However, there are issues that no doubt influence how they "see" the floor. If a judge is familiar with a couple, he or she will probably notice that couple earlier or give them extra viewing time or perhaps consider them favorably without really being aware of it. This is human nature. It's also the reason there are five or seven judges and not just three.

I've seen a couple of cases where judges recalled a couple that should never have made the finals. Perhaps their choreography or upper body form or personality made enough of an impact in those few seconds that they got the required number of callback marks. In the end, those couples got last place in the finals and I'm sure the judges were wondering "what was I thinking?" when they looked closer at the technique. But those kind of cases are extremely rare.

[cl5814]

ok, guys and girls, my thought did not come across the way i wanted, although the responses was very informative to me, at least.

Can a moderator lock or delete the thread, please ?

[pygmalion]

Hm. cl5814. I think this is a very interesting and informative thread, and, as long as nobody's being singled out, I would love to hear what others have to say.

I think we've all posted things that came out differently than we intended. Don't feel bad. It's happened to all of us, at least once or twice. You're still cool. 8) :D

[Vince A]

ok, guys and girls, my thought did not come across the way i wanted, although the responses was very informative to me, at least.

Can a moderator lock or delete the thread, please ?
No personal attack cl5814 . . . it was a poke at "singling out" someone!

Sorry . . .

[Larinda McRaven]

I think some interesting points were brought up. But for now, at the request of cl5814 I am going to lock the thread.