Spins for the follower true or false

[jdavidb]

These are related to connected turns. One hand is "polishing the halo" not disconnected free spins.

True or False:

When the follower is sent into connected spins, she should go into it with the idea of spinning multiple times until the arm is brought down (correctly) by the leader. (T) (F)

The leader attempting to steer the follower during connected spins (chaînés which are walking turns) is not a good idea. In other words, the only directional encouragement should be immediately leading into the spin not during the spin. (T) (F)

It is ok for the follower to abort multiple spins by bringing the arm down herself (after at least one spin) in order to communicate to the leader that she has had enough spinning. (T) (F)

[pygmalion]

Hmm. True/False questions always trip me up, because I think too much into them, and end up saying dumb stuff. Hmm.

So I'm pondering question one and two. Question three? Abort multiple spins? I'm going to go out on a limb and say no, she shouldn't do that. Um. False. Of course, I have done it, when I was dancing with a close frined who thought it was funny to give me a dozen turns at a time. When I hit around thirteen or fourteen, I'd give a giggle, and stop spinning. Lots of fun all around, since it was more a game between friends than anything else.

[Sagitta]

T

F -- I've moved the follow in a circle in the direction we started spinning, i.e. cw or anti-cw. Is this what this is being reference to?

True for me, but, usually a follow has no need to do this with me.

[jdavidb]

True/False questions always trip me up, because I think too much into them, and end up saying dumb stuff.

Oh yeah I forgot to put in the original message that these questions are of course open to as much elaboration or dumb stuff :lol: we have to say about spinning.

I've moved the follow in a circle in the direction we started spinning, i.e. cw or anti-cw. Is this what this is being reference to?

Sounds like you started her in the direction before the spins (as the lead-in to the spins).

I'm mainly wondering if followers dislike being steered off the original course during spins. I guess it might happen if a leader tried to use a spin to get a different place on the floor, reposition their spot/slot, avoid a collision or things like that.

[youngsta]

T

? - (what's meant by the word 'steer', do you mean exerting force to make her travel?)

On the last one I want to say false because it's essentially backleading, BUT if there's a safety issue involved she has the right to do whatever to keep from getting hurt.

[jdavidb]

(what's meant by the word 'steer', do you mean exerting force to make her travel?)

I'd describe steering as being anything that could mess up her balance during a spin. It's one thing to have the hand up there with resistance so she can do a little push off of it if she wants, but to use the connection to apply pressure to her would be different... most likely for the purpose of steering.

My answers were: True for the first one. Even though a single turn is most commonly what it is, she shouldn't be assuming that.

True for the 2nd one. I'd rather stop the spin and find some other way to get her to change directions.

False for the last one except I'd be aok with it if she did that with me. I don't really spin girls too much, but lindy hop can make 'em dizzy even without an abundance of actual spin moves.

[Sagitta]

I've moved the follow in a circle in the direction we started spinning, i.e. cw or anti-cw. Is this what this is being reference to?

Sounds like you started her in the direction before the spins (as the lead-in to the spins).

I'm mainly wondering if followers dislike being steered off the original course during spins. I guess it might happen if a leader tried to use a spin to get a different place on the floor, reposition their spot/slot, avoid a collision or things like that.

No. Start spining follower clockwise, then after a couple spins start moving her so that she makes a larger clockwise circle while spinning clockwise. Won't turn a follower off balance in my experience.

[pygmalion]

T

? - (what's meant by the word 'steer', do you mean exerting force to make her travel?)

On the last one I want to say false because it's essentially backleading, BUT if there's a safety issue involved she has the right to do whatever to keep from getting hurt.

Exactly. That's why I picked false, too, youngsta. The guy gets to lead when, where, how, how fast, and how many turns... within reason, of course. When he gets unreasonable, I'm going to giggle and stop spinning ... or else fall down! :shock: :lol:

[Flat Shoes]

F - The follower shouldn't go into a spin expecting anything at all, neither a single or multiple spins. The folloer shall follow the lead.

? - Huh?

T - For social dance, it's okay to abort a spin if there's a reason to do so. If not, follow lead.

[twnkltoz]

1. The girl should follow the lead and be ready for anything!

2. Yes, he can 'steer' her, gently and slowly. I have been set into a continuous spin that started as a straight line, then made a circle around the guy, with no problem. As he's 'stirring' her, he can gently move her around. It's hard to know where you're headed after a couple of spins, even spotting!

3. Yes, she can abort the spin. I don't care what anyone says about how we're supposed to be following...I tell all my female students that if they're uncomfortable for any reason with doing any more spins, they can stop. This is a safety and comfort issue. The man can't always tell if she's losing it, feeling sick, not enjoying it, etc when she's spinning, so may not know she needs to stop. Same thing goes for dips (or oversways, for that matter). Some guys don't know how to dip properly, or try to dip girls that don't know how or aren't ready for it. If she's off balance, not ready, what ever, she should pull herself out rather than fall.

[tsb]

1) true, but while it varies from dance to dance, i think my follows have a clear idea of when i'm communicating an intent to do multiple turns in place by how (& how much) i prep them for the turn. in some cases for chaine turns i often add a touch on the shoulder to let them know my intent is for them to continue.

2) i'm not exactly sure what this means, so i will just say that leaders should always set direction during the prep before actually starting a series of chaine turns (the prep also usually indicates chaine turns vs. a spin in place). if as a leader you find the path suddenly blocked fo chaine turns you can either influence the size of the follower's steps to become smaller or abort multiple turns as needed. while i do see multiple turns that move in a circle around the leader in salsa, etc. my take is that the follower is usually drifting instead of staying in place - but it's the leader's job to make it look like that was what was intended!

3) there are better (& safer) ways for the follower to signal non-verbally a desire to stop, assuming that they are dancing with a competent leader.

[pygmalion]

3. Yes, she can abort the spin. I don't care what anyone says about how we're supposed to be following...I tell all my female students that if they're uncomfortable for any reason with doing any more spins, they can stop. This is a safety and comfort issue. The man can't always tell if she's losing it, feeling sick, not enjoying it, etc when she's spinning, so may not know she needs to stop. Same thing goes for dips (or oversways, for that matter). Some guys don't know how to dip properly, or try to dip girls that don't know how or aren't ready for it. If she's off balance, not ready, what ever, she should pull herself out rather than fall.

I think I love you! :lol: :D Yes. When a guy goes overboard with spins, I stop. Fortunately, it takes a lot of spins before I get to that point, but I do stop when the only other option is to lose my equilibrium.

[jdavidb]

This thread turned out interesting. I guess these 3 details have not been standardized. They don't cover this kind of stuff for people in those bronze/silver/gold types of schools?

[youngsta]

I wouldn't know I'm not involved in those kind of dance training programs.

[twnkltoz]

3) there are better (& safer) ways for the follower to signal non-verbally a desire to stop, assuming that they are dancing with a competent leader.

And how is she supposed to do this when all of her energy and concentration are used to keep her on her feet? If you're spinning fast enough, it can be pretty hard to hold up a hand, or talk, or anything.

Is it me, or is it only leaders who are saying that it's not ok to abort a spin? I'm sure it's not AS true here as in the "real world," but men rarely know just what the follower is going through, in any step. I was teaching a class last week...I always teach the men their part first so they can practice, then teach the girls. I've told this class several times in the past that they should watch what the girls are doing so they know what to lead. After showing the girls their part, I asked the men what the girls were doing at a certain point in the man's footwork. They all looked guilty and said they didn't know! The girls had just done it right in front of them like five times. Some men never really get a clue...they're jerking their poor partner all over the place, spinning her 'til she gets sick, cutting her off and wondering why she doesn't move enough, etc etc. I wish more ballroom leaders would take a lesson from Argentine Tanguerros and spend the first year learning how to follow so they'll have some empathy!!

[jdavidb]

Is it me, or is it only leaders who are saying that it's not ok to abort a spin?

Well you know one of the rules is that we don't crucify followers for doing stuff like that to begin with heheheh. Afterall, even for a follower to go as far as completely hijacking is considered fun to some leaders. So, it's cool. I doubt it would be considered technically acceptible in something like a curriculum though.

The jobs of leaders & followers are different, but I have experienced enough follower info to know that the two possible skill sets are (in size) equal. Even though what the leader does is required learning, there is an equal abundance of required plus optional stuff for the follower to learn. So, it can balance out, or the followers can be slack and never bother with that optional stuff. Being able to turn/spin a lot without it getting to you too bad is one of those bonus follower things.

You know about the Hustle, right? When they can turn, spin, go in circles, take trips around each other to that extent, that's when they're maxing out.

[ShyDancer]

True or False:

When the follower is sent into connected spins, she should go into it with the idea of spinning multiple times until the arm is brought down (correctly) by the leader. (T) (F)

The leader attempting to steer the follower during connected spins (chaînés which are walking turns) is not a good idea. In other words, the only directional encouragement should be immediately leading into the spin not during the spin. (T) (F)

It is ok for the follower to abort multiple spins by bringing the arm down herself (after at least one spin) in order to communicate to the leader that she has had enough spinning. (T) (F)


T- Like any other lead you get, you never know what to excpect. Anticipation is bad :lol:

F- A steer can be fun, can also get you out of trouble if you are about to collide with someone , provided the spins are going well of course.

T- SO true! I will spin as long as my lead spins me, but there are occasions when I just need to stop, then I will and do, put my arm down.
No sense in hurting yourself or anyone else because you dont want to stop.

The other night I was spun multiple times..the most I have ever been spun, it was the best! I was fine while I continued the dance afterwards but after being led back to me seat I felt a little giddy....strange!

[tsb]

3) there are better (& safer) ways for the follower to signal non-verbally a desire to stop, assuming that they are dancing with a competent leader.

And how is she supposed to do this when all of her energy and concentration are used to keep her on her feet? If you're spinning fast enough, it can be pretty hard to hold up a hand, or talk, or anything.


fair question.

to me it all goes back to a leader not leading a move that their partner can not perform smoothly. if i've commenced multiple turns, it's because i've already perceived an appropriate connection during the prep phase. during the turns i am continually monitoring that connection along with other things like my partner's balance & location of axis (& facial expression!). as soon as i sense that any condition changes from optimal to less than optimal the spin ends ASAP. the actual percentage of leaders who hold to this is a separate issue.

since i'm frequently told by followers that i've led them through more multiple turns smoothly than they've ever done before (especially in salsa), i offer the following tips:
- prep your partner by overrotating her slightly (like a swing style tuck/turn) . also if you tense appropriately in your arm your partner will respond naturally so that when the turn starts you have the connection to apply sufficient torque - if it doesn't feel right abort & do a single turn;
- use body language during your prep to let your partner know what to expect - i frequently plant my feet shoulder width apart (which gives me a firm base) with a stomp (and now that i think about, the other arm tends to go up also);
- the application of torque is not constant throughout the turn - if directly in front of your partner is 6 o'clock & you are leading your partner into a right turn, speed & torque should not begin until after her hand goes past about 9:30-10 o'clock, any sooner and you tend to push her off balance to your left. it should feel like cracking a whip;
- because the torque is discontinuous, you have a split second to evaluate at the end of each spin as to whether the next spin should be the last spin;
- the size of the "halo" will vary from partner to partner; for example, i actually take into consideration things like ratio of upper arm length to lower arm length as followers with a disproportionally longer forearm benefit from a wider diameter "halo" so that her hand is farther away from her body than her elbow - followers of that body type tend to keep their hands really close to their heads which makes it more difficult;
- be planted for your own balance but be ready to follow your partner if her axis starts to drift;
- should you sense your partner starting to lose control go into save mode.
get that arm down in front of her ASAP and tense your own arm to give her an anchor & if necessary, pause to allow her to steady herself & regain her equilibrium (it actually looks kinda dramatic to people watching). grab her arm with two hands if needed;

[twnkltoz]

tsb, you must be an engineer or something!! :) Good points, but when it really comes down to it, not all guys pay attention or, if they do, can't necessarily tell what's going on in her head. Therefore, she has the right to stop the spin if she needs to...that's my only point.

[youngsta]

Is it me, or is it only leaders who are saying that it's not ok to abort a spin?
It's you, I'm a lead and said it was fine. :P

[tsb]

tsb, you must be an engineer or something!! :)


according to the following test, scoring (approximiately) 26.82446% makes me a Total Geek :P

http://www.innergeek.us/geek.html


Good points, but when it really comes down to it, not all guys pay attention or, if they do, can't necessarily tell what's going on in her head. Therefore, she has the right to stop the spin if she needs to...that's my only point.

i agree. but bringing the arm down risks injury - especially if the leader keeps going. something a little more subtle like moving the hand closer the center axis (or higher over one's head) usually gives the follower sufficient control over her rate of spin regardless of how much torque the leader may try to apply.

[pygmalion]

What's wrong with a good old-fashioned giggle as a signal? :wink: It always works for me. :roll: :lol:

[d nice]

They are all True with possible exceptions.

False for the last one except I'd be aok with it if she did that with me. I don't really spin girls too much, but lindy hop can make 'em dizzy even without an abundance of actual spin moves.

HEre is an issue of symantics... I purposefully use the word spin to mean an inplace rotation, and turn for a rotation that travels.

Lindy Hop rarely uses spins (as I have just defined it), but uses turns all the time. Lindy Hop BTW should not make someoen dizzy. It happens to people who are still having problems with the basics of relative body position and momentum. With continued practice these problems iron themselves out.

[jdavidb]

Lindy Hop rarely uses spins (as I have just defined it), but uses turns all the time. Lindy Hop BTW should not make someoen dizzy. It happens to people who are still having problems with the basics of relative body position and momentum. With continued practice these problems iron themselves out.

Alright cool... none of the partners have complained about dizziness with me. I haven't come anywhere near dizziness either. That's good news. It's in other stories on the web that had me thinking dizziness was always a factor in lindy hop.

They do seem to wear out fast though. Halfway through songs they're huffin', and they aren't smokers. They're so young they haven't had time to do much damage to their stamina yet.

[d nice]

Chances are they are just working to hard. The follower should let the leader initiate the first movement, and then keep going. The elader will absorb, redirect and retard her momentum. IF she tries slwoing herself down to make the turn in the swing out and then start her body moving again she is doing way more work than is necessary... and making the leader do the same.

Leading is about initiation, following is about reaction. Hopefully that will help some.

[d nice]

Another thing that may be causing premature exhaustion is dancing oon the surface of the floor or "across" the floor rather into the floor. They shouldn't be shuffling there feet, but taking deliberate steps as dictated by the leader... with a defined bounce/pulse.

[jdavidb]

Tsb can be the engineer. D nice can be the construction technician. I will be the hostage negotiator, and Pygmalion can giggle at us.

[pygmalion]

Giggle! You're too silly. :wink: :lol: :lol:

[Vince A]

Great discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MacMoto]

As a founding member of the DF spin-haters club :lol:, I'd say:

When the follower is sent into connected spins, she should go into it with the idea of spinning multiple times until the arm is brought down (correctly) by the leader. (T) (F)
True -- or at least that's what I've been taught to do. It's just that in reality I often fail to do this, i.e., I start turning expecting a single (wishful thinking, I suppose :oops:), realise the leader wants multiple and hurriedly squeeze a second revolution in a bit too late, which screws up the leader's intention. :(

The leader attempting to steer the follower during connected spins (chaînés which are walking turns) is not a good idea. In other words, the only directional encouragement should be immediately leading into the spin not during the spin. (T) (F)
True. Anything that can throw my balance off during spins is a bad idea -- I can easily lose balance without the leader's help!

It is ok for the follower to abort multiple spins by bringing the arm down herself (after at least one spin) in order to communicate to the leader that she has had enough spinning. (T) (F)
True. And it's not always a matter of choice for me -- I lose balance, I try to stay on my feet, my arm goes down. Sorry, but be forgiving... I'm not a bad follower, I just can't spin! :oops:

[Kitty]

On the last one I want to say false because it's essentially backleading, BUT if there's a safety issue involved she has the right to do whatever to keep from getting hurt.

I disagree with you on this. Not everyone likes multiple spins (or does them well). Girls should have the right to "speak up" in this one. Backleading is bad when the girl doesn't let you lead at all, or anticipates what steps you are doing making it hard for you to lead. However in this case, what is so bad about finishing spins when she wants? You rather have her backlead or feel uncomfortable (I feel stupid doing lots of spins because I don't do them well)? If she doesn't want to do itfor any reason, you'd rather she tells you, or doesn't?

My view on this "who decides" issue is that guys lead and girls follow just because for a couple to dance only one person should be leading at a time, and it is easier if that person is the one who is taller and bigger (so it happens to be the guy). Girls agree to follow for everyone's convinience, however if it is inconvinient for them to follow, I don't see why they can't backlead.

[Kitty]

Exactly. That's why I picked false, too, youngsta. The guy gets to lead when, where, how, how fast, and how many turns... within reason, of course. When he gets unreasonable, I'm going to giggle and stop spinning ... or else fall down! :shock: :lol:

Noooo:-) the guy gets to lead for as long as I want him to. If for any reason (not neccessarily falling over reason) I don't want him to, he won't get to lead 8).

[tj]

Girls agree to follow for everyone's convinience, however if it is inconvinient for them to follow, I don't see why they can't backlead.

Lol! I can see it now...

Middle of a dance... she stops. "Sorry, it's inconvenient for me to follow you any more..." ...walks off the dancefloor. :roll:

[Kitty]

Girls agree to follow for everyone's convinience, however if it is inconvinient for them to follow, I don't see why they can't backlead.

Lol! I can see it now...

Middle of a dance... she stops. "Sorry, it's inconvenient for me to follow you any more..." ...walks off the dancefloor. :roll:

No, starts leading:-)

[tj]

Girls agree to follow for everyone's convinience, however if it is inconvinient for them to follow, I don't see why they can't backlead.

Lol! I can see it now...

Middle of a dance... she stops. "Sorry, it's inconvenient for me to follow you any more..." ...walks off the dancefloor. :roll:

No, starts leading:-)

Lol - so then *he* walks off the dancefloor. :wink:

[pygmalion]

Exactly. That's why I picked false, too, youngsta. The guy gets to lead when, where, how, how fast, and how many turns... within reason, of course. When he gets unreasonable, I'm going to giggle and stop spinning ... or else fall down! :shock: :lol:

Noooo:-) the guy gets to lead for as long as I want him to. If for any reason (not neccessarily falling over reason) I don't want him to, he won't get to lead 8).

:lol: :lol: You are bad! :twisted: Funny too. :wink: :lol:

[Sagitta]

Girls agree to follow for everyone's convinience, however if it is inconvinient for them to follow, I don't see why they can't backlead.

Lol! I can see it now...

Middle of a dance... she stops. "Sorry, it's inconvenient for me to follow you any more..." ...walks off the dancefloor. :roll:

No, starts leading:-)

Lol - so then *he* walks off the dancefloor. :wink:

You do that to me I'll switch positions completely and be a follower, even doing follower steps. :wink: :)

[pygmalion]

Evil! LOL. :lol: :lol:

[salsachinita]

As a founding member of the DF spin-haters club :lol:

Needless to say I'm in this club with you, MacMoto...a co-founder maybe :wink: ?

[Sabor]

hey.. if the lady can lead, i'd be happy to be led any time :wink: .. but unfortunately.. i haven't met any who can lead properly, for a significant amount of time and doing nothing more than basic.. but maybe thats just me :lol:

as far as backleading.. then i wouldn't encourage that because u'b be simply breaking the dance flow unecessarily (so long as its not dangerous or its too complicated for u).. and if u have problems w/ it then very simply tell him, after the move is done, in words.. verbal communique is still aloud as far as i know :wink:

[pygmalion]

Few women other than teachers get the opportunity to practice leading the way guys do. There just aren't those many opportunities. :?

[twnkltoz]

as far as backleading.. then i wouldn't encourage that because u'b be simply breaking the dance flow unecessarily (so long as its not dangerous or its too complicated for u).. and if u have problems w/ it then very simply tell him, after the move is done, in words.. verbal communique is still aloud as far as i know :wink:

Telling him afterward doesn't do you any good when you're in the spin and you're about to lose it.

[pygmalion]

Good point, twinkletoz. Wouldn't it be interesting to see how things changed if leads had to do the follow part for a while, so they could feel the effects of all those spins they lead? :shock: :wink: