Kids Under The Age Of Teens Competing?

[DancePoet]

When I saw a juniors competition for the first time, it opened my eyes to a world I hadn't contemplated previously. It seemed ok for teenagers to be competing against each other, similarly to the way they do with anything else at that age, sports, ballet, music, pagents, etc. I would say it's likely important for the costumes to be restricted in style a bit, and of course with the teens come the parents who are truelly supportive and those parents who are obviously pushy.

However, those under the age of teens, what's the point? And is it really appropriate to wear the overly revealing costumes? What's your opinion on children below the age of teens competing in dance?

[Laura]

I think it's fine that pre-teens are competing, as long as they are having fun with it.

As far as the costumes go, there are rules about what pre-teens can wear. Unfortunately, the way the rules in the offical USABDA handbook are written right now, they're hard to enforce and so a lot of people just throw their hands and the air and give up.

The current USABDA rules say that boys are supposed to be in black pants and white shirts. Girls are supposed to be in leotards and wrap-around skirts or party dresses. No one is supposed to wear any rhinestones.

To the average person it sounds like they want the kids to be in the kind of thing they'd wear to their elementary school graduation, grandma's for a special dinner, or to church. Nothing wrong with that. But we all know that dancesport competitors aren't average! I've seen 9-year-old girls in dresses with low-cut backs and FAKE BREAST PADS, but because the costume had no rhinestones someone told them it was acceptable! I've seen kids wearing dresses that looked like ice skating costumes, but not like something a kid would wear to a party or a church. When questioned, they showed us a label sewn into the dress that says "party dress" on it.

The IDSF, which is the World governing body for "Amateur" dancesport, and which USABDA (the US governing body), has very restrictive rules. Their rulebook supposedly includes helpful diagrams and photos to specify exactly what is appropriate or not. At some point these rules will become part of the official USABA handbook, and hopefully with things clearer for everyone it will be easier for people to follow the rules and easier for people to enforce the rules. The rules cover clothes, shoes (the little kids are NOT supposed to be in heels), makeup (NONE).

The reason for the rules are simple: the governing bodies are very aware of the image dancesport presents, and they do not want to be seen to be encouraging the sexualization of small children. The rules I mentioned will apply up through the Junior I age group, which means for kids that are 12 and under. If a kid is turning 13 in the current year, they can wear Adult-style costumes.

The kids want to dress up, and they want to be like their older dance heros, but they don't realize that when they are allowed to dress in a certain way it makes them look much much older than they really are and that this is a particular issue when it comes to pre-teen girls. The parents tend to complain when we tell them there are costume rules -- but the moment we say "look, the rules are here to keep from inadvertently turning little kids into sex objects" the parents suddenly realize that we're not evil and out to stop their kids from having fun. It's funny, but no one usually ever comes right out and says "when a 9-year-old is dressed that way she looks like a child prostitute"...but when it is said plainly, people really get it.

[Chris Stratton]

The rules I mentioned will apply up through the Junior I age group, which means for kids that are 12 and under. If a kid is turning 13 in the current year, they can wear Adult-style costumes.


But kids are allowed to dance up one age category, right? So is this restriction by competitor age, or by event age category?

I think one thing that might promote compliance would be for domestic costume makers to start turning out premade legal outfits in girl's sizes that still preserve an element of fun. Perhaps USABDA could offer a pre-certification program for costume designs or something - it might be possible to get some of the general (non-ballroom) dance suppliers who have suitable things in their catalogs involved too.

[Sagitta]

I have no objection to kids competing if that's what they desire and is not the result of undue parental pressure. However, I also am all for age appropriate clothing. I agree that seeing very young children all dolled up in adult looking clothes w/ makeup, fake breast pads etc is taking things a little too far!!

[Laura]

But kids are allowed to dance up one age category, right? So is this restriction by competitor age, or by event age category?

This is yet another in a series of unclear rules. In order to mollify whining kids and yelling adults (and yes I've been faced with both of them) as to why Molly can't wear her costume with sparkles and why Russ can't wear the shirt that is cut open practically to his navel, we've been letting the kids who dance up into the combined Junior I / Junior II events put their costumes on. Which seems silly...some days I think we should just say what the hell and let people wear what they want while we wait around for 20/20 to show up.

I think one thing that might promote compliance would be for domestic costume makers to start turning out premade legal outfits in girl's sizes that still preserve an element of fun. Perhaps USABDA could offer a pre-certification program for costume designs or something - it might be possible to get some of the general (non-ballroom) dance suppliers who have suitable things in their catalogs involved too.

Again, an excellent idea. Lyn Wallander was doing this sort of thing for a while, or trying to, but it doesn't seem to have taken off.

Another dress I would have never allowed was one with a low cut back that was cut so wide open across the back that part of the sides of the body were also exposed. It was totally covered in fringe. But, since it didn't have any rhinestones, the chairman of judges allowed it on an 11-year old! If you had slapped a couple of gross of Swarovski's on it, it would have looked good on a Pro Latin dancer.

[Chris Stratton]

I really share some of the concern about the indecency component with children's costumes, but at the same time I do to some degree regret that the rules also discourage fancy tastefull costumes even at levels where expense is perhaps not as much of a factor.

For example, I'd much rather see a little girl covered in rhinestones than insufficiently covered with fabric. If kids old enough not to eat the sparkles can be pursuaded to accept them as a bribe for covering up, maybe they aren't so bad. Rhinestones perhaps go to far, but fabrics with a bit of sequins or glitter can still make things look special, and aren't very expensive.

Also, while the expense would make it impractical in most situations, I do think it's a little sad that kids who work towards their equivelent of champ are never allowed miniature tailsuits and (decent) ballgowns - I mean afterall, that kind of photo creates a good impression!

[Laura]

Your rhinestone/coverage trade-off makes tons and tons of sense. It would be a good way of almost letting the kids wear whatever the heck they want, but would keep kids still in the range of modesty appropriate for their ages. All that would be needed would be a couple of diagrams as to how low or wide things can be opened, and everyone would be all set. It would be so much easier to enforce, too. None of this "is this a costume" debate -- rather, "is this dress cut too low in back...let me get a ruler and the rule book."

And I'd kind of like to see a no-makeup rule for kids in Pre-teen, simply because trying to make rules to keep the kids from looking trampy as opposed to visible on the floor are too hard to write. But they'd get to wear their rhinestones, so hopefully it would balance out.

[Warren J. Dew]

DancePoet:

I wouldn't be against kids competing if they actually wanted to do it themselves. I think that's rare, though - from what I've seen, in the vast majority of the cases, the parents are pushing them or living through them. That's just sad.

As for the look - hey, Latin dancing is about being flirtatious and sexy. It's not possible to do it well and still look like a prepubescent child. I don't think it's reasonable to say that kids can compete, but to prevent them from doing it as well as they can - which means striving to look like the adults that are the best dancers. If we don't want the child competitors to look like child prostitutes, maybe we should discourage the adult competitors from looking like adult prostitutes.

I'd suggest that a good alternative might be to introduce the kids to social dancing first - where the downsides of excessively provocative clothing are obvious - and maybe limit it to the less overtly sexual dances. If they want to take up competition later on, let it be their own choice.

[Laura]

The Pre-Teens are supposed to be limited to syllabus moves. To me, a bunch of little kids dancing syllabus looks more like square dancing than anything provacative, so I don't really see a problem there.

That's an interesting point about kids that young wanting or not wanting to dance. It's hard to tell...it will be interesting for me to look back through saved results 10 years from now and see what names from the Pre-Teen A now are in the Youth and Adult then.

And as far as adult costumes go...I figure that adults are free to be as tacky and tarty as they like. It's certainly not my goal to tell everyone what to do.

[pygmalion]

Wow. This is turning into a very interesting thread.

Um. Child prostitutes? I don't know. I must say that prepubescent girls running around in skimpy clothes and theatrical makeup gives me the creeps. Maybe social dance is a good place to start. But then, wouldn't they lose the competitive advantage of getting started early? I don't know if there is a good way to balance, other than parents just having plain good sense. Meaning "let" the children dance or compete within reason, but also let them have normal lives as kids. And dress kids as kids. Okay, so maybe they won't win, but they'll still be out there on the floor, getting solid competitive dance experience that they can benefit from as they grow older.

I think you've hit on on the head, Warren. The responsibility for almost all the nonsense lies with parents who are out of balance.

[Warren J. Dew]

The Pre-Teens are supposed to be limited to syllabus moves. To me, a bunch of little kids dancing syllabus looks more like square dancing than anything provacative, so I don't really see a problem there.
Well, as far as I'm concerned, the sexiest move in rumba is a basic with a slow, sensuous hip action, so the restriction to syllabus doesn't mean much. Maybe it's women that are more attracted to the open material?

Now, not many kids have good hip action, but a few do. I remember in particular going to the Classique a decade or so ago, and my then partner and I concluded that the top youth couple must be virgins, given the obvious lack of sensuality in their hip action. Then a few events later, winning one of the younger age categories, there was a prepubescent girl displaying a very adult level of sensuality in her hip action, forcing us to modify our theory. To use pygmalion's word, it was kind of creepy.

[tasche]

Ok I feel obligated to jump in on this conversation as I have experiences that others on this board may not of had. As a former pre teen competitor not on the path to world satrdom ( many years ago ) I can't remember it being anything other than fun and wholesome. I dont remember wearing anything considered to be "slutty". We did wear way to much make-up ( applied ourselves of course) I remember vividly wanting to learn the lambada not bc it was sexual but it was forbidden.

Anyhow I turned out ok with no hardful sideeffects.

So far as technique and hip movement we just mimiced what we were shown just like any dance move.

[ShyDancer]

Here the rules for pre-teen competition dress are very strict.
All the girls must wear the same dress style, in both Standard and Latin,it only differs in color. There are no sparkles or stine allowed.
Its a full dress with long sleeves and it reaches to just above the knee.
Very cute! You can see some examples at www.ballroomrhythms.com just click on the photo gallery link, they are pictures from Aussie comps.

[DancePoet]

Without a doubt if they aren't having fun then the kids should not be participating.

The rules as explained above seem to be, but if they aren't being enforced, not good. And preteens wearing breast pads??? Gosh, and to think I felt low cut fronts and backs, and other overly revealing costumes that no one in a social situation would be wearing, especially not kids, was bad! What are we teaching our children when we show them it's ok to be wearing breast pads??? Creepy is certainly only part of the discription.

And parents are complaining about enforcement of the rules??? There is nothing that gets me riled up more then parents saying it's ok to break the rules! Ugh!

Kids can be introduced to ballroom and have lots of fun without being pushed nor lived through by parents nor dressed in clothing clearly designed for adults. I saw parents clearly being more then just supportive of their kids. The preteens were getting excessive instructions, critiques, and costume checks. There were definitely kids not having fun, going through the moves, and dancing even seemed robotic rather then natural.

Introducing preteens to social dancing first makes a lot of sense, and letying the child choose competition rather then the parent or even the instructor would be best.

[pygmalion]

Breast pads? That is creepy.

The thing is, no matter what sport you talk about, be it the neighborhood soccer league or competitive ballroom, there are some well-balanced parents and some people who are totally overboard, and everything in between. It would be nice if the rules were enforced in such a way that they protect the kids.

btw, are there limits on the hours a young child is allowed to compete, or the number of heats, and such? Just curious; I have no idea.

[Warren J. Dew]

Maybe social dance is a good place to start. But then, wouldn't they lose the competitive advantage of getting started early?
The kids can learn the things that will benefit their dancing later - figures and basic technique - as easily from social dance as from competition. Advanced technique is somewhat body shape specific, and I would guess the kids end up having to continuously relearn it as their bodies grow, anyway. Arguably the skills that kids can learn that are most easily transferable to adults are nondance presentation skills, like makeup, that some people feel uncomfortable with.

According to http://www.danceuniverse.co.kr/news/hawkins.htm, the current woman world champion, "did not compete in Ballroom and Latin until she was an Amateur" - meaning she never competed as a juvenile or junior. That kind of suggests that the future competitive advantages of starting ballroom competition before 16 are minimal, if they exist at all.

[Chris Stratton]

I wonder if it would be worth trying to identify which adult dance skills it is worthwhile to get a head start on, and then create new children's dances around those. While there's something very cute about seeing the youngest kids dancing, so many of the important components of the dances they are doing are totally absent that it's unclear that adult-style dances are really beneficial.

For example, while it's rather amazing that young children can cooperate and move around the floor together, it's hard to avoid noticing that their version of closed hold doesn't really have any connection to speak of or any concept of the body positions they would need to maintain it throughout the various dance steps.

In my mind, building habits for partner-related motion is one of the most critical skills to really learning ballroom - but maybe there are others that could get early-start emphasis instead.

[Warren J. Dew]

The thing is, no matter what sport you talk about, be it the neighborhood soccer league or competitive ballroom, there are some well-balanced parents and some people who are totally overboard, and everything in between. It would be nice if the rules were enforced in such a way that they protect the kids.
I'm not so sure that we're any more justified in telling other adults as to how to raise their kids as in telling other adults what to do themselves.

I'd agree that competition organizers may reasonably have views about what they want their events to be like, and they are justified in making rules that encourage or enforce that - as long as competitors can choose to go to other competitions if they don't happen to like the rules. But I think that applies just as much to rules for adults as to rules for kids.

btw, are there limits on the hours a young child is allowed to compete, or the number of heats, and such?
No more than 24 hours a day.

[pygmalion]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Elizabeth]

I didn't do ballroom as a child, but I did do a different form or competative dancing. I was five years old when I first competed. I don't have a problem with really little kids entering competitions. I think some of the parents are creepy, but I think that they're actually in the minority, we just notice them more.

Clearer standards and better enforcement is probably the way to go with costumes. I know from personal experience that if parents actually believe that their child will be penalized for a costume that doesn't meet regulation they will conform. Regardless of the standards for any age group, my personal feeling is that if a little girl doesn't need a bra yet she looks silly in a costume designed to show off the contents thereof.

[dancin_feet]

There are very strict rules as regard to Juvenile dress standards here in Australia. Just checked out the dancesport website here and there are dos and don'ts all over the place even down to the type of fabric that can be used.

If they enjoy it, why not? At a recent competition I saw one little girl who won a couple of awards, she couldn't have been older than 7. She walked out to collect her medals, arm extended, big smile on her face, it was obvious that she had been trained to present herself like that, but you could also see that she loved it. So sweet!

[pygmalion]

Yes, it can be sweet, when the kids are allowed to work hard, but, more importantly, to enjoy the feeling of accomplishment that comes with it.

[Genesius Redux]

I dunno. I've seen the kids competing, and while the kids I've seen really do seem to like it for themselves (as an actor, I'm well aware of the bad karma from stage parents), especially when occasionally a kid competes with her teacher--it just kinda creeps me out.

Kids who dance maybe would be better off doing ballet and jazz and tap, and then moving into ballroom when they're in their teens.

My fuddy duddy opinion.

[tasche]

"Kids who dance maybe would be better off doing ballet and jazz and tap, and then moving into ballroom when they're in their teens"

Not necessarily as ballet and jazz can be harder on the fragile egos of girls that dont have the ideal body type ( not so much boys as even ones without the ideal body as praised )

I was watching a comp a couple of months ago and was watching an 11 yo competing with her teaching and thinking this was a better way for someone like herself who was over her ideal weight/height ratio yet she could perform confidently and experience some sucess as opposed of years of struggle and misery with ballet