Good teacher/Good choreographer?

[pygmalion]

How do you pick a choreographer for your competitive routines? Do them yourself? Work with your coach? Hire someone whose specialty is choreography?

What makes a good choreographer? The same qualities as a good teacher? Or something else?

Thoughts?

[mamboqueen]

I don't know that good choreographers and good coaches are necessarily the same being. I only say that because a coach/instructor who teaches steps and techniques all day doesn't necessarily have the time required to make up umteen choreographed routines for all students. One thing that bugs me is the same studio giving all of its students the same routines.

[DanceAm]

We get all of our routines from a current competing professional. He is not from our area so we have to wait until he comes into town. Since using his routines and getting his coaching, we have been placing better and better.

I know this is another topic, but choregraphed routines still have to be danced well and it is no substitute for technique. When the routines are new, we spend more time on getting the routine down. Then we spend a lot of time just making it look better, checking body positions, lines, footwork.

The hardest part is keeping it fresh. It is almost like you have to be a good actor to perform your routine. Sometimes the music helps and the right song seems to step up our performance, but it is important to practice the routines to many different songs especially uninspiring ones, and pretend they are great songs. You just never know what music you will get in competition. Sometimes the cha cha music is so bad and you want to make a good impression right away. Trying to pretend that a certain cha cha is fun is hard and sometimes I feel the judges can look right through me and see I am not sincere in my expression. But I do my best and hope it is good enough.

[pygmalion]

That's interesting, DanceAm. Just curious, but, if you don't mind sharing, how did you pick the pro you work with? Watch him performing? Get a recommendation from someone? Something else?

[Elizabeth]

As a side note, I really wish people wouldn't use routines in Standard. I'm sick and tired of couples running into me (not to mention all the avoidance my partner has to do) because they can't or won't deviate from their competition routine.

I'd prefer it if coaches didn't give standard couples complete routines, because it sure seems like there are loads of couples out there who take that as licences to not worry about floorcraft and just run people over. Groups are fine and necessary, but longer routines in standard seem to be asking for trouble.

Sadly, I doubt that anything is going to change, and there will alway be couples who leave the floorcraft to others. I'll be adding more hardware to my hairdo for the next competition, since that seems to be my main means of self defense. I need to find something sharp enough to penetrate a tail coat, since its the guys who are the ones who seem to end up slamming straight into my head.

[pygmalion]

Hardware for your hairdo? :shock: :lol: :lol: That's hilarious.

[Chris Stratton]

As a side note, I really wish people wouldn't use routines in Standard. I'm sick and tired of couples running into me (not to mention all the avoidance my partner has to do) because they can't or won't deviate from their competition routine.

I agree! Routines really don't have much use in standard in my opinion. Even in open, most of the couples that sink time into getting elaborate routines would probably do better to concentrate their attention on a quarter as much material, filling in with some of the syllabus figures that move well and maintaining flexibility to adapt.

Another common contributing factor is event staff who try to pack as many couples on the floor in gold/open as they did in newcomer/bronze.

Also, I think teachers have an obligation when presenting the Natural Turn with Hesitation in quickstep to suggest it be used only in the corner or with extreme caution. I lost count of the number of times someone threw one of these in 2/3 of the way down a a crowded wall in syllabus MAC, and only by an intimidating degree of inertia was discouraged from immediatley cutting across the path of 2 or 3 other couples.

[Warren J. Dew]

I agree! Routines really don't have much use in standard in my opinion.

I agree, for competition.

Shows, on the other hand, can be better if one choreographs one's show routine to match a particular piece of music. Unlike in a competition, one can expect most of the audience's attention in a show, so it can be worthwhile to use some storytelling techniques, like rising tension, climax, and denouement.

To answer pygmalion, I got competition choreography from a coach once, in Smooth, and after using it on a crowded floor once spent the next lesson learning how to escape from the routine. Aside from that, I've done all my own show choreography.

Also, I think teachers have an obligation when presenting the Natural Turn with Hesitation in quickstep to suggest it be used only in the corner or with extreme caution.

Or they could teach the chasse to the right and back lock to follow it.

[Chris Stratton]

Also, I think teachers have an obligation when presenting the Natural Turn with Hesitation in quickstep to suggest it be used only in the corner or with extreme caution.

Or they could teach the chasse to the right and back lock to follow it.

Yes, if they teach a very flat version of it. It's not uncommon to see a bunch of couples moving down a wall in a group doing quarter turn/progressive chasse or similar figures, and if the outermost one suddenly cuts inwards, disaster - so it's usefull to have several very flat groupings up your sleeve if on the oustide, and a number of hesitating and into the center groupings for the inside.

[Laura]

One thing that bugs me is the same studio giving all of its students the same routines.

Sometimes there are good reasons for this. If you're dancing syllabus-level Pro/Am and your teacher has several other students, do you really expect him to create and remember different routines for each student in each dance, plus the routines he would have with his pro partner? One student I know always complained that she had to dance the same bronze-level routines that her teacher taught his group bronze-level class. I told her "look at it this way, you're not burning expensive lesson time learning your choreography, and since he uses the same thing for everyone there's less chance of him confusing people's routines" She just didn't get it, and insisted that he make up routines for her. He did, and then she'd get all mad when he'd forget parts of the routine. And this was all just bronze-level! I think she should have been focussing on her own technique and especially following skills.

My teacher often went out of routine on the competition floor, and I actually considered to be a treat and a compliment -- when I was dancing well and following properly he could do whatever and it all worked out. I'm happiest and proudest of those moments.

I think the best choreographers are the ones who put together something that compels you to develop your skills and not feel stale while not overwhelming you to the point where you just never can get the routines down, even in practice. I was in that situation...I had some Amateur routines that my partner and I worked on for over a year and a half that we could never really do decently. I kept wanting to simplify them so we could spend our time improving our basic technique but my partner didn't want to change a thing. It was a source of stress and even for injury for me.

I think the best routines are launching points, and that the music and the floor traffic also have to factor into what's going on -- especially in Standard and Smooth.

[cl5814]

Sometimes the music helps and the right song seems to step up our performance, but it is important to practice the routines to many different songs especially uninspiring ones, and pretend they are great songs. You just never know what music you will get in competition. Sometimes the cha cha music is so bad and you want to make a good impression right away. Trying to pretend that a certain cha cha is fun is hard and sometimes I feel the judges can look right through me and see I am not sincere in my expression.

I should try to practice that on the social dancefloor. I guess the music just plays such a huge part in my dancing that if the music is good the dance is good too but boy oh boy, if it is one of those dreaded dead songs.....

[DanceAm]

That's interesting, DanceAm. Just curious, but, if you don't mind sharing, how did you pick the pro you work with? Watch him performing? Get a recommendation from someone? Something else?

Some advice that was given to me before. Try to get coachings with the judges you see at comps, especially the ones that marked you low so you can find out what they are looking for. We have tried to work with many different coaches, current competitors and judges alike. Trying to find one you like and to feel like you are learning something is one of the most important criteria.

Kathryn Schaffer was one such judge and even though the opportunity to take more coachings with her is not easy due to location, I think the few hours I spent with her were very productive. She also broke it down into very simplistic pieces. I really liked working with her and will again when the opportunity is there. I would say that is the most I ever got for my money because I still analyze my dancing by her instruction and advice. I would recommend her without hesitation.

To name one other, John King does our choregraphy. He comes to our studio once a month and it is not enough to really get what we need. But our regular teacher is a former Rising Star Rhythm champion who seems compatible and respects John. There is nothing worse than incompatible instructions from coaches, it is frustrating and wastes too much time and money.

But I think I was introduced to John at a studio where someone there who knew of him found his classifed in Dancebeat.

[pygmalion]

That's cool, DanceAm. Thanks for the tips. 8) :D

[dancin_feet]

What makes a good choreographer? The same qualities as a good teacher? Or something else?

To be a teacher and a choreographer are two very different things. To be a choreographer you have to be imaginitive and be able to break up figures, move them around, add, take away, embellish and then put them back together so that they not only flow but fit with the music. A good teacher does not need to do this. They are just teaching set steps. Sure they need to know how to break figures down to teach them, but changing them around and blending them together is something completely different.

That's not to say that someone can't be good at both, though. I believe it just takes two different skillsets.

[Kitty]

As a side note, I really wish people wouldn't use routines in Standard. I'm sick and tired of couples running into me (not to mention all the avoidance my partner has to do) because they can't or won't deviate from their competition routine.

I agree! Routines really don't have much use in standard in my opinion. Even in open, most of the couples that sink time into getting elaborate routines would probably do better to concentrate their attention on a quarter as much material, filling in with some of the syllabus figures that move well and maintaining flexibility to adapt.

What about smooth? Do you think routines should be used in smooth but not standard, or do you treat standard and smooth the same on this issue?

[Kitty]

I agree! Routines really don't have much use in standard in my opinion.

I agree, for competition.

Shows, on the other hand, can be better if one choreographs one's show routine to match a particular piece of music. Unlike in a competition, one can expect most of the audience's attention in a show, so it can be worthwhile to use some storytelling techniques, like rising tension, climax, and denouement.

one couple from my team used for silver am. foxtrot at MIT comp. the very pretty routine that our coach choregraphed for us for a performance. It looked great for a performance and had some pretty things in it like a lady's leg kick, ladys double spins and steps where lady is turned with her back to leader, but the routine didn't move: it had a box in it somewhere, and some steps that didn't move much. + they didn't wear costumes. They didn't do well at all.

Anyway, how is a good performance routine much different from a good competition routine?

[Chris Stratton]

I don't know too much about the answer to that, having only really made up one small performance routine.

One difference I did think of was that the performance was optomized to be viewed from a single direction, wheras the walls may be more equal in competition. That meant a lot of reshuffling the order of things to try to get the more showy figures facing the audience. We kept a lot of travel and a degree of line-of-dance concepts, but those wouldn't be as necessary - certainly you could use the whole floor any way you like, and might want to if it were small. One reason for keeping a lot of travel in a show routine would be if you consider movement across the floor to be one of the primary elements of the dance that you want to show.

Another thing - for a show you know what music you get, and can plan to fit things to its phrasing. Also, oyu can doa mdely of music/dances if you want.