new milonguero embrace

[jantango]

It's the latest trend. A new embrace for tango from Italy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-fVwnMqYB0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTTP8Tv8u9A&NR=1

Isn't it bad enough that women dance with their eyes closed?
This woman has no option and can't see anything.

I think she should find a shorter partner.

[Subliminal]

But then where would HIS nose be? ;)

[Captain Jep]

Lets hope he doesnt have sweaty armpits... :)

[Mladenac]

I haven't tried it yet. I saw it somewhere. I must admit that it is quite difficult to dance with big hight difference. This kind of embrace could help. Leading is done with body, embrace is just cosmetics.

[Ampster]

Someone taught me that a couple of years ago, and actually tried it. It was weird, and didn't work very well. I gave it up halfway through the song.

[Light Sleeper]

I hope he's got a good dry cleaner that can remove the make up from his shirt. :-)

[Mladenac]

I noticed many women dancing tango closed in close embrace. It's great feeling for leading because it means absolute confidence in the leader. She opens them when leader combines open and close embrace.

[Peaches]

I don't see what the big deal is. There's a very significant height difference between the two of them, so I can definitely see where this would just be more comfortable. (There's one guy in particular that I know where I can only wish he'd dance this way, because otherwise it's just so difficult to be remotely comfortable with him.) So long as the guy isn't clamping her left arm to her side, I don't see why it's a big deal. It's a practical solution to a real problem.

As a "new milonguero embrace"...meh. Whatever.

And who cares if women dance with their eyes closed? If the situation permits (floor not so crowded that the extra pair of eyes is a necessity, confidence in the leader's floorcraft, "feeling it" in the embrace and the dance) it's one of the most wonderful things in the world. It focuses everything you have on the music, your leader, and yourself...amazing. (And then there are those times when, even with my eyes open, I can't see anything because of the height difference. If all I have to stare at is his shirt/chest/neck, might as well close my eyes.)

Who cares about any of this? There's no right or wrong.

[Peaches]

Someone taught me that a couple of years ago, and actually tried it. It was weird, and didn't work very well. I gave it up halfway through the song.
Pity. Playing with different embraces can be wonderful. (And challenging, which can also make it fun with the right leader.)

There's one guy I like to dance with, and we quite frequently switch things up. Both arms around his shoulders, right arm around his waist, my left arm under his, my right hand on his chest. It can be very enjoyable.

[Me]

The guy towers over her. What is he supposed to do - hunch, just like everybody else does? Is she supposed to stand on her toes and poke her butt out and turn her face to the left, just like everybody else does?

Maybe we should just tell them to stop trying to dance "real" tango (closed-embrace) and tell them to move on to "fake" tango (nuevo) so that we can post a clip of their nuevo here and roast them for that, too. (sarcasm, yes yes, much.)

[Peaches]

Bravo, Me!!! Beautifully put. Thank you!

Really. I didn't realize that, in addition to things like dancing "correctly" and dressing "correctly" and dancing to the "correct" music and following the "correct" codes of behavior, that we're also supposed to base our dancing on who is the right height for us. Bloody hell.

[Ampster]

Pity. Playing with different embraces can be wonderful. (And challenging, which can also make it fun with the right leader.)

There's one guy I like to dance with, and we quite frequently switch things up. Both arms around his shoulders, right arm around his waist, my left arm under his, my right hand on his chest. It can be very enjoyable.

Oh, I experiment with all of what you just said (given the right partner). What I was saying was that the OP's embrace, that particular one didn't work for me.

[bastet]

The guy towers over her. What is he supposed to do - hunch, just like everybody else does? Is she supposed to stand on her toes and poke her butt out and turn her face to the left, just like everybody else does?

Maybe we should just tell them to stop trying to dance "real" tango (closed-embrace) and tell them to move on to "fake" tango (nuevo) so that we can post a clip of their nuevo here and roast them for that, too. (sarcasm, yes yes, much.)

ha ha... love the BIG letters and I am in full agreement.

Height difference is a fact of life in this country and in some others. People have to find some way to deal with it and still be able to interact with each other.

I've used this embrace a couple of times in the past and didn't find any problem with it. As someone said, he isn't leading me with his arms anyway, those are just there for "comfort".

[hbboogie1]

The guy towers over her. What is he supposed to do - hunch, just like everybody else does? Is she supposed to stand on her toes and poke her butt out and turn her face to the left, just like everybody else does?

Maybe we should just tell them to stop trying to dance "real" tango (closed-embrace) and tell them to move on to "fake" tango (nuevo) so that we can post a clip of their nuevo here and roast them for that, too. (sarcasm, yes yes, much.)

I think I recognize the lady in the clip. I once asked her to lend me cab fare but she said she was a little short! jajajajajajajaja

[dchester]

I think I recognize the lady in the clip. I once asked her to lend me cab fare but she said she was a little short! jajajajajajajaja
OK, that made me laugh.

:eek:

[dchester]

It's the latest trend. A new embrace for tango from Italy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-fVwnMqYB0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTTP8Tv8u9A&NR=1

Isn't it bad enough that women dance with their eyes closed?
This woman has no option and can't see anything.

I think she should find a shorter partner.
Finding a shorter partner is an option, but I don't see anything wrong with creating your own style, rather than copying copiers (or however you phrased it in another thread). Also, some people don't like to greatly limit who they dance with.

FWIW, a follower once asked me to use this embrace with her (although the height difference between her and me was much greater than the height difference in the first video). This position is a good option for milonguero style dancing, IMO.

[mkjohnson]

Jantango wrote: Isn't it bad enough that women dance with their eyes closed?
This woman has no option and can't see anything.

Am I missing some terrible faux pax? I dance with my eyes closed frequently - I actually got the recommendation from three different tango instructors - two of whom are Argentine. *scratching head*

[bastet]

Jantango wrote: Isn't it bad enough that women dance with their eyes closed?
This woman has no option and can't see anything.

Am I missing some terrible faux pax? I dance with my eyes closed frequently - I actually got the recommendation from three different tango instructors - two of whom are Argentine. *scratching head*

i think most people are going to have opinions.

I'm not that tall, so it makes almost no sense for me to keep my eyes open with some people I dance with who are fairly tall...nothing to see but chest/shirt/neck...

I don't close my eyes as much in really tight milongas, unless I am dancing with someone who i think is really, really competent and has good floorcraft skills. If I am dancing with someone whose floor skills are in question no matter how much room we have...more often I am also keeping an eye on things.

For me, it's a trust thing. It's not required (like some people used to tell me) but it is nice to be in a place where I can "tune in" completely and do that.

[jantango]

Jantango wrote: Isn't it bad enough that women dance with their eyes closed?
This woman has no option and can't see anything.

Am I missing some terrible faux pax? I dance with my eyes closed frequently - I actually got the recommendation from three different tango instructors - two of whom are Argentine. *scratching head*


Believe it or not, there are many Argentine instructors who never set foot in a milonga in BsAs. The floors often are crowded where it is necessary for the woman to keep her eyes open to alert her partner to traffic around them. This is done by giving him a signal with her left hand on his shoulder blade. That way, he knows not to step backward into another couple on the floor.

Comparable height is an important consideration before inviting a woman to dance. Partners are usually about the same height. That's how "dancing cheek to cheek" applies. You can only do that with a partner of the same height.

I say leave the tall guys for the tall women at a milonga. There are plenty of short ones to go around. Seasoned dancers in the BsAs milongas don't need to dance with someone of a different height. On rare occasions, I have seen a very tall foreigner dancing with short local women. It looks awkward. The embrace looks as bad as those in the videos.

The new younger generation of female dancers hide their faces and close their eyes, as if they are dreaming while dancing. This trend isn't going to help social dancing. It's no wonder that collisions on the dance floor continue for this reason alone.

If women want an equal role in tango, keeping their eyes open and participating in good floor craft is the first step.

[mkjohnson]

As bastet alluded to (in this post or another), floor condition and comfort/familiarity with one's partner greatly contribute to whether or not (and for how long) I'm comfortable closing my eyes. And I also didn't want to imply that my eyes are closed the duration of the tanda. When I feel tension/tightness through my partner's embrace, I'm automatically alert.

But unless it actually hurts my back to dance with them, I don't tend to chose my partners based on their height. For instance two of the leaders that are almost exactly my height hurt my back far more than many of the taller (or shorter for that matter) ones do.

"I say leave the tall guys for the tall women at a milonga. "

There are two of my favorite leaders who are so much taller than everyone else at most milongas, if they followed that same rule - they wouldn't dance all night.

"On rare occasions, I have seen a very tall foreigner dancing with short local women. It looks awkward. The embrace looks as bad as those in the videos."

But from the outside, from the tables, how can we judge how the two "feel" together. They may not feel awkward to one another at all. Their dance is not for our eyes, but for their bodies/comfort/enjoyment and expression of the music. (Provided they're not interfering with the line of dance or other couples on the floor, obviously.)

obviously just my (more than) two cents as a non-Argentine n00b dancer.


Believe it or not, there are many Argentine instructors who never set foot in a milonga in BsAs. The floors often are crowded where it is necessary for the woman to keep her eyes open to alert her partner to traffic around them. This is done by giving him a signal with her left hand on his shoulder blade. That way, he knows not to step backward into another couple on the floor.

Comparable height is an important consideration before inviting a woman to dance. Partners are usually about the same height. That's how "dancing cheek to cheek" applies. You can only do that with a partner of the same height.

I say leave the tall guys for the tall women at a milonga. There are plenty of short ones to go around. Seasoned dancers in the BsAs milongas don't need to dance with someone of a different height. On rare occasions, I have seen a very tall foreigner dancing with short local women. It looks awkward. The embrace looks as bad as those in the videos.

The new younger generation of female dancers hide their faces and close their eyes, as if they are dreaming while dancing. This trend isn't going to help social dancing. It's no wonder that collisions on the dance floor continue for this reason alone.

If women want an equal role in tango, keeping their eyes open and participating in good floor craft is the first step.

[kieronneedscake]

If women want an equal role in tango, keeping their eyes open and participating in good floor craft is the first step.

This is a very good point, particularly for the more flamboyant dancers. Many women do not make any efforts to prevent collisions and boleo injuries whilst they whirl around. Sadly spatial awareness outside the couple is not easy to acquire when what is going on inside the embrace is so complex. Also, some people apparently are not concerned about injuring others.

Part of me wonders if "equality" in the dance is often a synonym for "doing whatever I want".

On the topic of height, I have to say on average I found the native Argentine dancers to be quite short and I'm only 5'10". Yes there a few tall ones, but many were on the bottom range of my easy embrace. A tall visitor does not have much option but to hold out for the lanky few unless he has learned some height-compensating skills.

Statistics are on my side, Argentines are typically an inch shorter than Brits.
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/height-chart.shtml

If an 8-foot man can be comfortable dancing with a 4-woot woman, more power to them both! After all, the dance is about internal beauty as much as external appearances.

[Zoopsia59]

This is a very good point, particularly for the more flamboyant dancers. Many women do not make any efforts to prevent collisions and boleo injuries whilst they whirl around. Sadly spatial awareness outside the couple is not easy to acquire when what is going on inside the embrace is so complex.

Off topic for the thread, but I felt compelled to comment on this.

Like so many things involved with Tango and with following in general, there is a fine line that must be found. Beginner followers sometimes have a fair amount of trouble learning to "surrender" to the leader and trust the leader to keep her safe. Its not that she has no spatial awareness of what's happening "outside the couple".. its that she has TOO MUCH early on, and needs to learn to quiet it down, which often means turning it completely off just to get through the beginning stages of learning to follow a leader!

Sometimes this happens because of bad experiences with leaders, but sometimes its just because of complete lack of experience at social dancing. Someone who hasn't done ballroom or other "line of dance" styles that requirte her to primarily move backwards sometimes has trouble learning to relax and not worry about what is behind her, but to focus on the leader and let HIM worry about what she can't see behind her.

I myself had trouble with this when I started learning ballroom (and then very shortly thereafter, Tango) because I had done ice skating where you don't have the luxury of ignoring what's going on around you or what other people are likely to do. And when you skate backwards, you look where you are going! (which is impossible as a follower going backwards) The penalty for crashing into someone (or tripping over whatever) is potentially far more dangerous than even the worst Milonga issues (but then, I haven't been to Negracha)

It took my first Tango teacher quite awhile to get me to trust him and let him worry about what was behind me. (Luckily he was also strictly BA "milonguero" style, and he also instructed me not to let my foot come off the floor back there!)

I'm sure I'm not the only woman who has had trouble learning to relax, trust the leader, not get distracted, and stop worrying about what she might crash into if she isn't tensely vigilant.

Then, lo and behold, after putting a huge effort into learning that, we get to the point of learning certain other new moves, and now we are told "Be aware of what's all around you when you do these moves" (uh, you mean this move I just got LED by someone who CAN see behind me that I'm supposed to trust? That move?) and are expected to just switch our awareness back on without losing the trust, relaxation, and focus on HIM we worked so hard to develop, blah, blah, blah!

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that somewhere, this is all going to backfire.

Learning this fine line is one of the things that makes following very difficult and just as much of a skill as leading. (Its like the fine line of being responsive without anticipating.) Leaders don't have to walk this fine line, because they were never supposed to focus primarily on their partner and ignore distractions in the first place

IMO, if there isn't room for me to raise my leg in a boleo, then the leader better not lead a boleo so vigorously that I have to fight the torque to keep my foot down. I'm supposed to be relaxed, not holding my legs and hips stiffly in anticipation of what might get in their way. I shouldn't have to tense up to prevent myself from going where the lead takes me (unless it truly is a case of what I can see that the leader can't) HE'S supposed to be paying attention to the room.. that's why he gets to choose what we're going to do next... I'm got my hands full paying attention to HIM so I can respond in the fraction of a second I have to respond in.

I know how to do a boleo without my foot coming up, but to be honest, I haven't seen that get taught often (Thank you Rebecca Shulman for imparting the importance of this to some of us!) So many followers will take ANY boleo lead and do a full swinging boleo. If you tell them they don't have to raise their foot, they look at you with "huh?" written all over their face. The leaders need to realize that this is a possible result of any led boleo and lead accordingly when there isn't room. And frankly, I've rarely had a leader lead a boleo gently enough for me to easily and naturally kepp my leg low. To me, the DEFAULT should be that the leg doesn't come up unless there is enough torque that it comes up because it is relaxed and free. But the leaders typically provide that level of torque. I've had to fight against people leading high in-line back boleos in crowds and doing so can be painful.

Of course, some followers just blindly (pun intended) throw in anything they please, but there's still the problem of having learned to shut out distractions and then having to relearn awareness (without being tense, vigilant, worried, blah,blah)

And some of these wild moves are just the current culture of tango in some places. If people don't get taught to do things small.. if all they see is things done flamboyantly, that's how they are going to dance. These tv shows that showcase a tango (like SYTYCD having Miriam and Leonardo) are fun, but its not helping the problem for show dancing to be what most students think of as tango and want to learn.

[kieronneedscake]

Well Zoopsia, at least you care about not hitting people. It's not always possible to avoid it because we don't all have 360 degree awareness. Nevertheless, I have heard people say "I don't like dancing with .... we are always crashing into other couples". Why do they even dance with the useless twit?! Why do they settle into blind trust with someone who is patently not worthy of it? Trust should be earned.

Otherwise, it's nice for us leaders to have a helping hand on crazy floors. We already know it's our fault when we hit people. However, I've had a few accidents in my time where my partner has been so intent on doing crazy things that I've not been able to stop them. Consider the potential ambiguity between a lead for a rapid stop because of another couple appearing from nowhere, and the lead for a nice big boleo. I've learned my way around that one now, but it used to be a problem for me.

We've just got to rein in the crazies and the rest can be forgiven in exchange for sincere apology.

[bastet]

Well Zoopsia, at least you care about not hitting people. It's not always possible to avoid it because we don't all have 360 degree awareness. Nevertheless, I have heard people say "I don't like dancing with .... we are always crashing into other couples". Why do they even dance with the useless twit?! Why do they settle into blind trust with someone who is patently not worthy of it? Trust should be earned.

Otherwise, it's nice for us leaders to have a helping hand on crazy floors. We already know it's our fault when we hit people. However, I've had a few accidents in my time where my partner has been so intent on doing crazy things that I've not been able to stop them. Consider the potential ambiguity between a lead for a rapid stop because of another couple appearing from nowhere, and the lead for a nice big boleo. I've learned my way around that one now, but it used to be a problem for me.

We've just got to rein in the crazies and the rest can be forgiven in exchange for sincere apology.


well- to be honest, the times I most remember being banged into someone or crashing in to another couple, I would not have been able to see it without turning my head either away from my partner entirely, or looking behind me (where he is supposed to be looking) or it was someone's stiletto in my leg from a boleo someone led on a crowded floor (or the follow interpreted as high boleo).

If I am in a very crowded milonga, or dancing with someone with not so good floorcraft skills, I tend to keep my eyes open to keep an eye on the backside, unless it is with my other half, who knows darn well not to take any back steps on a crowded floor and then I usually feel pretty safe doing that most of the time. Granted, in a smaller community like ours, he already has all the "troublemakers" pegged and generally tried not to get in LOD dance near them. :)

I'm guessing from the boleo commentary, most ladies don't understand the how to tell when "rebound" is present in a lead to indicate something other than a boleo that stays near the floor.

[hbboogie1]

well- to be honest, the times I most remember being banged into someone or crashing in to another couple, I would not have been able to see it without turning my head either away from my partner entirely, or looking behind me (where he is supposed to be looking) or it was someone's stiletto in my leg from a boleo someone led on a crowded floor (or the follow interpreted as high boleo).

If I am in a very crowded milonga, or dancing with someone with not so good floorcraft skills, I tend to keep my eyes open to keep an eye on the backside, unless it is with my other half, who knows darn well not to take any back steps on a crowded floor and then I usually feel pretty safe doing that most of the time. Granted, in a smaller community like ours, he already has all the "troublemakers" pegged and generally tried not to get in LOD dance near them. :)

I'm guessing from the boleo commentary, most ladies don't understand the how to tell when "rebound" is present in a lead to indicate something other than a boleo that stays near the floor.

My eyes were open her eyes were open. I’m a good leader who knows how to keep my partner away from danger but no matter how good you are there’s always a chance of getting kicked.

Last night my wife was kicked in the ankle with a 100-mph boleo. His new partner has only been dancing for three weeks so I don’t blame her. He on the other hand has created a total threat to the entire community in three short weeks.
The boleo struck with such force it literally knocked her shoe off. (The lethal weapon’s shoe)
What pissed me off the most was the idiot didn’t apologize. I’m afraid I lost it at this point and yelled in his face that he can’t lead boleo’s on a crowded social dance floor. This man is known for his disregard for others and the sad part is he’s a nice guy and a friend that I’ve known for years.

Is there a solution to this problem? No.

[Ampster]

My eyes were open her eyes were open. I’m a good leader who knows how to keep my partner away from danger but no matter how good you are there’s always a chance of getting kicked.

Last night my wife was kicked in the ankle with a 100-mph boleo. His new partner has only been dancing for three weeks so I don’t blame her. He on the other hand has created a total threat to the entire community in three short weeks.
The boleo struck with such force it literally knocked her shoe off. (The lethal weapon’s shoe)
What pissed me off the most was the idiot didn’t apologize. I’m afraid I lost it at this point and yelled in his face that he can’t lead boleo’s on a crowded social dance floor. This man is known for his disregard for others and the sad part is he’s a nice guy and a friend that I’ve known for years.

Is there a solution to this problem? No.

Yes, there is. When he's aside, tell him what he's doing wrong nicely without antagonizing anybody. It saves face, and the situation is made clear.

At least, that's what I do, and it helps. If they feel bad and don't want to be my friend anymore, then too bad. At least the floor is safe.

[dchester]

Yes, there is. When he's aside, tell him what he's doing wrong nicely without antagonizing anybody. It saves face, and the situation is made clear.

At least, that's what I do, and it helps. If they feel bad and don't want to be my friend anymore, then too bad. At least the floor is safe.
No doubt that the leader needs to be made aware of the facts of life, but the same goes for the follower. Regardless of how stupid the lead is, the follower should know that the high boleo is not appropriate for a crowded milonga, and to only do the low (or social) boleos in that situation.

[bastet]

My eyes were open her eyes were open. I’m a good leader who knows how to keep my partner away from danger but no matter how good you are there’s always a chance of getting kicked.

Last night my wife was kicked in the ankle with a 100-mph boleo. His new partner has only been dancing for three weeks so I don’t blame her. He on the other hand has created a total threat to the entire community in three short weeks.
The boleo struck with such force it literally knocked her shoe off. (The lethal weapon’s shoe)
What pissed me off the most was the idiot didn’t apologize. I’m afraid I lost it at this point and yelled in his face that he can’t lead boleo’s on a crowded social dance floor. This man is known for his disregard for others and the sad part is he’s a nice guy and a friend that I’ve known for years.

Is there a solution to this problem? No.

well- it seems to me we are making a similar point.In your scenario, eyes closed or open appear to have made no difference. Much the same in the occasions I have experienced this type of thing with my regular partner. My point was that in cases with him, my eyes open or closed would have made little to no difference.

Other people, now that's a different story.

[opendoor]

..eyes closed or open appear to have made no difference...

I shut my eyes on friday. I could not find a woman, I would like to dance with, when I was asked by a man. And I think, he could lead pretty good. It worked better with eyes closed. I could better concentrate on the dissociation at ochos, and to move my feet appealingly. Eyes set to infinite worked as well.

[bastet]

I shut my eyes on friday. I could not find a woman, I would like to dance with, when I was asked by a man. And I think, he could lead pretty good. It worked better with eyes closed. I could better concentrate on the dissociation at ochos, and to move my feet appealingly. Eyes set to infinite worked as well.

that's good for you then.

But you misinterpreted what I said in my comment.

I didn't imply that dancing with my eyes open or closed made no difference to my following. If you read through any earlier posts you'd see that one of the benefits I find in closing my eyes with someone I can trust is to better focus and connect with them and the music.

The comment about no difference was in reference to teh fact that there are times when florocraft issues can not be avoided, and also as in HBBoogie's comment about floorcraft accidents, there are times when whether or not a follow has their eyes open or closed would have made no difference to the outcome (a mishap or collision).

Like I said, the better the leader and the more I trust him and his floorcraft, the more likely I will be to probably close my eyes. Not too many leaders fit that category for me, and certainly not on a very crowded floor.

I just say do whatever makes you feel comfortable. If you aren't comfortable closing your eyes, there's no rule that says you have to for Pete's sake. And if closing them brings you closer to bliss, then go for it.

[jantango]

I trust my partners to protect me on the floor. However, I dance with my eyes open to watch others around us. We are familiar with who we can count on to bump into us on the floor and move away when it happens. That is why I keep my eyes open in case I need to warn my partners.

I often marvel at how they are able to manuever on a crowded floor without touching anyone. Moving away from hazards is their speciality.

I am amazed how many women have their eyes closed and are oblivious when they bump or kick others. This "new milonguero embrace" where a short woman dances blind with a tall man is promoting more collisions on dance floors.

[Angel HI]

I trust my partners to protect me on the floor. However, I dance with my eyes open to watch others around us.

This "new milonguero embrace" where a short woman dances blind with a tall man is promoting more collisions on dance floors.have just been following from the wings for a while, but stopping in just to say that there are 2 issues on this thread; the eyes closed, and the "new embrace". Firstly, the eyes closed or not is completely a moot point. I have known many argentines and non to dance w/ eyes opened, and experience crash. Relatively, I have known many who dance w/ eyes closed, and the lead amsters well the dance and the venue so that there are no crashes (at least from his pov).

Secondly, although a wee rusty at the moment, I speak italian, and if one reads the blurb on the YT vid posted by the OP, the guy says that he is tall, and finds that this embrace works for him. He does not suggest that this should be some sort of new generic, or worse yet, more correct, styling. It certainly wouldn't work for me or any of the teachers/dancers that I am acquainted with.

Lastly, ...
The boleo struck with such force it literally knocked her shoe off.
What pissed me off the most was the idiot didn’t apologize.
Is there a solution to this problem? No.
Yes there is!, and it is guaranteed to work. Have the gutless organizers to bar him from the venues w/ the understanding that when he knocks off his rude behavior, then he may return.
Back to the wings for a while.