blackpool 2004

[cl5814]

The blackpool competition is only a few days away ...

Do we have anyone that is going to blackpool, either to compete or spectate ? Any aspiring blackpool competitors ? Any stories about blackpool that you wish to relate ?

[dave_aw]

My partner and I are going to compete in Amateur Latin, and probably not make it through a round, but we're giving it a go! We're also going to watch the rest of the amateur latin and pro. latin.

[SDsalsaguy]

I'm not going this year... :(

[Sakura]

I've *heard* of Blackpool; but all I know is that it's a HUGE dance competition in England (I believe).

I would *love* to compete there someday, but I'm sure you have to be *really* good to get in to it, and I have no partner! :wink:

Alas, maybe someday!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[dave_aw]

To be honest everyone can enter, but unless you're at Amatuer level you really won't get anywhere. All the top couples in the world in dancesport enter it. It is reckoned to be *the* definitive competition in the year. If you're at all serious about ballroom and latin you should follow the results from Blackpool! For all you americans look out for Eugene and Maria in the amatuer latin, for Slavik and Karina in the pro latin, and Jonathan and Katusha in the pro standard as your best couples. Slavik and Karina even have a (very small) chance of winning pro latin this year.

Personally i'm only entering in the vague hope i might make even one round!

[ShyDancer]

The headl of my studio calls Blackpool "The Wimbledon of the Ballroom world" Quite fitting actually.

The tower ballroom is stunning. Wish I could make it there as a spectator one day.
My Latin teacher is over there now with his partner to compete in the Amatuer, as well as a pro couple from my studio who of course are competeing in the Pros :lol:


I have emailed every TV station asking if anyone is covering it, but nope not one of the is even having a snippet of it. Very disappinting really.

[dave_aw]

Who is your teacher? I'd be interested to see how they do?

[pygmalion]

I have emailed every TV station asking if anyone is covering it, but nope not one of the is even having a snippet of it. Very disappinting really.

Yes. That is very disappointing. :(

[etchuck]

We have a small contingent from North Carolina going, but I'm obviously not. The pros we're following are Robertas Maleckis and Inga Sirkaite.

[Laura]

I have emailed every TV station asking if anyone is covering it, but nope not one of the is even having a snippet of it. Very disappinting really.

Yes. That is very disappointing. :(

I read a book a few years ago where the author said that the Blackpool organizers don't actually encourage the presence of TV coverage. They feel it's disruptive to the event having the TV cameras and crews around, and the attitude was that the competition gets on just fine without that kind of fuss. If I can find the reference I'll post it here...it was a "coffee table" book written by a Canadian guy about the world of dancesport competitons. And of course, if anyone one has any first-hand knowledge please discuss it here. I only bring this up because people on the boards continually lament the lack of dancesport coverage on TV...yet it seems that in some cases dancesport organizers don't actually want to be on TV because of the logistical problems that involves. Then there's the whole issue of poor ratings in major TV markets (i.e. the USA), but that's another story....

[pygmalion]

Hmm. Interesting, Laura. There's gotta be a happy medium somewhere, right?

[Laura]

For sure! I really liked the productions that Good TV did a few years ago...they taped the professional and top-level amateur events at the USDSC in Miami. Phil Stone and Linda Wakefield commentated, with additional reporting from the likes of Gary MacDonald and others. These were very well done, and it's a shame that they didn't get the kinds of ratings needed to draw sponsorship to continue production and also widen the audience. The USDSC experience shows that it is possible to combine an existing "classic" competition with TV taping, even if it wasn't the easiest thing for the organizers to accomodate.

Well, maybe a good sex scandal will bring in viewers. Someone did say that dancesport needed a "Nancy & Tonya" event to break into the mainstream....

[pygmalion]

Any DF reps?

[Warren J. Dew]

I'm going to Blackpool. I don't know if Blackpool has internet cafes yet, but if they do, maybe I'll post from there.

[cl5814]

For those interested in monitoring the results, be that individual dancers or country medals, the website w w w.blackpooldancefestival.net will have the results. Go South Africa.

[Warren J. Dew]

I read a book a few years ago where the author said that the Blackpool organizers don't actually encourage the presence of TV coverage. They feel it's disruptive to the event having the TV cameras and crews around, and the attitude was that the competition gets on just fine without that kind of fuss.

I don't have first hand knowledge, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised. Blackpool is one of the few ballroom competitions that gets its money primarily from spectators; it makes sense for them to avoid inconveniencing those spectators for unknown and possibly negative benefits from television coverage.

I have to say I kind of agree with this viewpoint. I'm not a big fan of the network television model of choosing from a limited number of shows at any given time. I'd rather have a wider variety of options available so people can pick something closer to their own interests. Cable television has helped with this, and I think web video has the potential to take it much further.

For those who want to see some of the semifinals and finals, tapes of Blackpool are available each year.

I really liked the productions that Good TV did a few years ago...they taped the professional and top-level amateur events at the USDSC in Miami.

I agree - those were really nice. They also did seem to make an effort to avoid being too disruptive. I have to admit, though, that having attended several of the events that they taped, there were still some inconveniences. Their boom camera arrangement at USDSC required closing a section of seats from which the view would have been obstructed, and still somewhat obstructed the view from some of the standing room. I felt this was worthwhile in order to make the event available to a wider audience, but it's possible some of the other paying customers did not feel the same way.

I also went to the Ohio Star Ball one year when the PBS show was still being filmed. There, the entire competition was largely built around the show. They did things like ask people to applaud at three different levels at the beginning of the session, so they would have clean applause tape with the appropriate volume to insert at whatever points they wanted. They made the entire audience avoid talking for several 15 or 20 minute breaks to avoid background noise while the commentary was being taped. I found things like this to be very intrusive and they were much of the reason why I haven't been back to that competition.

Things like the Blackpool tapes, which are targeted to people who are actually interested in ballroom competition without being jazzed up for general entertainment purposes, can be filmed with very little disruption to the competition.

[SDsalsaguy]

I don't know if Blackpool has internet cafes yet, but if they do, maybe I'll post from there.
Heya Warren, you can get a visitors pass to the Blackpool Library that will then enable you to use one of their computers for an hour/day, all for free. Sometimes you may have to wait a little bit for a station to free up, but you can also make reservations in advance for specific times. Looking forward to any impressions you can share...

[Sakura]

Where does one purchase these Blackpool tapes? Is it from a website they run, or are they only available in England? (I hope not!)

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[dr daffy]

umm... not to sound incredibly stupid or anything but what is blackpool? heh... just wondering since i don't do ballroom dancing or any of that

[cl5814]

umm... not to sound incredibly stupid or anything but what is blackpool? heh... just wondering since i don't do ballroom dancing or any of that

It is THE ballroom competition in the world to go to. Sort of like wimbledon is for tennis.

[cl5814]

Where does one purchase these Blackpool tapes? Is it from a website they run, or are they only available in England? (I hope not!)

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

I thought dancevision.com might have them, but they don't. Like pygmalion would do, google and find out.

[dr daffy]

oohh thanks for telling me, cl5814... i was feeling pretty lost, lol. is it fun?

[spatten]

Blackpool is a city in England. It is also the home of the Blackpool Dance Festival - which is essentially, but not technically, the World Championship of Ballroom Dancing. The Festival is nearly 80 years old, and always draws the best dancers in the world. The comptiition is held every year in May, and is going on this week.

It is the goal of many competitive dancers to do well at Blackpool. If you ever get the chance to see a tape you might enjoy watching it. The music is pretty old school - but it definately grows on you.

The movie "Shall we Dance" has a few references to Blackpool that give one a hint of the magic of Blackpool.

You can get the tapes online at quasarvideo.com.uk or a few other sites.
Be warned they are about 120$ each for Professional, then another 120$ for amatuer and so on. Also, some people don't enjoy the commentary . But for studying video of good dancers- there is no equal IMHO.

Scott

[Sakura]

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: $120?!?!?!?! .... :cry: :cry: There goes *MY* chance of getting one... *feighned sigh* Alas, it seems that poor teenages with little funding are not meant to lay eyes on the splendor of Blackpool! :wink:

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[SDsalsaguy]

Blackpool results for Friday, May 28, 2004...

Rising Star Professional Latin
FINAL
1st: Frank Luan Jiang - Sandy Zhang Ru (China)
2nd: Maxim Kozhevnikov - Yulia Zagoruychenko (USA)
3rd: Simone Di Pasquale - Natalia Titova (Italy)
4th: Koji Nishijima - Asumi Asumi (Japan)
5th: Khutso Khunou - Seipati Nthwesane (South Africa)
6th: Roman Chechel - Olesya Kalyzhnaya (Russia)
7th: Sonny Jing Zhang - Cher Wen Qin Luo (China)

Semi-Final
Eddie Stutts - Viktoria Belova (USA)
Andrei Boushik - Valeria Bushueva (Russia)
Koen Brouwers - Roemjana De Haan (Netherlands)
Andrea Placidi - Valentina Vincenzi (Italy)
Pierre-Henri Dignac - Angelique Dignac-Pires (France)
Maurizio Ghigiarelli - Manuela Andracchio (Italy)


Senior Ballroom
FINAL
1st: Volker Schmidt - Ellen Jonas (Germany)
2nd: Vladimir Shcherbakov - Natalya Ovcharenko (Russia)
3rd: Giorgio Braccialarghe - Elisabetta Principi (Italy)
4th: Stefano Bernardini - Stefania Martellini (Italy)
5th: Maurizio Meoni - Gianna Boccardi (Italy)
6th: Heinz-Josef Bickers - Aurelia Bickers (Germany)
7th: Luigi Bodini - Antonella Benedetti (Italy)

Semi Final
Walter Valenta - Irmtraud Maurer (Austria)
Dirk Kitzerow - Anni[Ka Kitzerow (Germany)
Giorgio Morniroli - Viviana Beia (Italy)
Mark Sheldon - Didi Von Deck (USA)
Guido Pellegrini - Angela Petrini (Italy)
Eric Voorn - Charlotte Voorn

[pygmalion]

Thanks, SD. :D 8)

[Sakura]

WOW! SD! Thanks! For those of us who really can't/don't have the time to find that stuff, that's really awesome that you've posted it for us! :D

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[JohnK]

I think it's short sighted to not televise Blackpool. In addition to providing more income for the event's organizers, it would provide crucial exposure for the sport itself, which will benefit said organizers again down the line. Doesn't have to be the big networks, there are plenty of arts related cable channels to fight over. If I can watch gymnastics or ice skating (or snooker for chrissakes) semifinals on Saturday afternoon, why not Blackpool?

No need to disrupt spectators or competitors, multi-camera shoots have been done quite discreetly from behind spectators with scaffolds and zoom lenses. The show can be narrated without disrupting competition. If the competitors are stressed "being on live TV", then tape the thing for later broadcast. I'd think they'd be psyched.

There could have been great PR synergy between Blackpool and "Shall We Dance" remake, each could create buzz for the other and get DanceSport a lot more exposure. Too bad we'll probably not see this.

[Sakura]

I think it's short sighted to not televise Blackpool...

If the competitors are stressed "being on live TV", then tape the thing for later broadcast. I'd think they'd be psyched...

There could have been great PR synergy between Blackpool and "Shall We Dance" remake, each could create buzz for the other and get DanceSport a lot more exposure. Too bad we'll probably not see this.

*nods* You bring up some very good points, JohnK. As a beginning dancer, I'm sure that I could learn many things from watching the Blackpool events, as well as who key figures are in the dancing world today.

Taping for later broadcast is probably a good idea too, because then they can edit out shots they don't like or they can work on camera angles. I'm sure that later the flimed dancers would be very excited about it all!

:( It is sad that they didn't play up all of this to their advantage and potentially increase their chances to have a huge opening weekend.

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[SDsalsaguy]

Blackpool results for Saturday, May 29, 2004...

Under 21 Amateur Latin
FINAL
1st: Mark Ballas - Daria Zviagina (England)
2nd: Valentin Chmerkovskiy - Sandra Udis (USA)
3rd: Ryan Terry - Kateryna Gontarenko (England)
4th: Artem Okhrimenko - Alexandra Nelyubina (Russia)
5th: Igor Drobyazko - Anna Tovbin (USA)
6th: Valentin Voronov - Ioulia Moussikhina (Russia)

Semi Final
Anton Marchuk - Oksana Sidorenko (Russia)
Vladimir Filipov - Polina Kazachenko (Russia)
Gary Wright - ??? (England)
Andrey Kisilev - Elena Arsentieva (Russia)
Nikita Bazev - Natalia Borodaenko (Russia)
Alexei Plakhotnikov - Anna Savelieva (Russia)


Professional Team Match
RESULTS
1st: Great Britain (297.2 Points)
2nd: USA (295.9 Points)
3rd: Italy (294.3 Points)
4th: Russia (293.7 Points)

TEAMS:

Russia
CAPTAIN: Mr Victor Nikovski
MODERN: Alexey Galchun & Tatiana Demina
Luca Tonello & Ekaterina Baroulina
LATIN: Dmitri Timokhin & Anna Bezikova
Sergey Ryupin & Elena Khvorova

Italy
CAPTAIN: Mr Davide Cacciari
MODERN: William Pino & Alessandra Bucciarelli
Mirco Gozzoli & Alessia Betti
LATIN: Fabrizio Buonifacio & Elisabetta Pusceddo
Alessandro Garofolo & Anamaria Bassano

USA
CAPTAIN: Mr GARY MCDONALD
MODERN: Jonathan Wilkins & Katusha Demidova
Giampiero Giannico & Ieva Pauksena
LATIN: Slavik Kryklyvyy & Karina Smirnoff
Michael Wentink & Beata

Great Britain
CAPTAIN: Mrs Lynn Harman
MODERN: Chistopher Hawkins & Hazel Newberry
Timothy Howson & Joanne Bolton
LATIN: Paul Killick & Hanna Karttunen
Darren Bennet & Lilia Kopylova

Adjuticators:

Mr. Peter Dan Ringgaard, Denmark
Mr. Isao Nakagawa, Japan
Mr. Sirpa Suutari, Finland

[robin]

The website of the scrutineering software has all the marks from the first round to the final published pretty close to the event. So if you know someone competing that won't make it into the final, this is a good place to check on their progress!
http://www.scrutelle.com/results.htm

(follow the top link to "Blackpool Dance Festival)

As to filming it, obviously there must be some cameras there or they wouldn't be able to sell videos after the event. I think the point is more that there is insufficient interest from the TV networks and/or insufficient lobbying from the organisers. Alternatively they might be trying to protect their lucrative trade in videos...

Robin

[SDsalsaguy]

Blackpool results for Sunday, May 30, 2004...

Amateur Rising Star Ballroom
FINALS
1st: Emanuel Valeri - Tania Kehlet (Denmark)
2nd: Rudiger Homm - Julia Belch (Germany)
3rd: Nikolay Darin - Julia Tutushina (Russia)
4th: Valerio Colantoni - Sara Di Vaira (Italy)
5th: Linas Koreiva - Dorota Makar (Poland)
6th: Eldar Dzhafarov - Anna Sazhina (Russia)

Semi Final
Aleksander Makarov - Katrin End (Estonia)
Christopher Short - Yana Balabaeva (England)
Rosario Guerra - Grazia Benincasa (Italy)
Andrej Mosejcuk - Susanne Niscenko (Germany)
Evgeniy Kazmirchuk - Julia Spesivceva (Russia)
Blaz Pocajt - Inna Berlizyeva (Slovenia)


Amateur Rising Star Ballroom
FINALS
1st: Arsen Kishishian - Alarna Donovan (Australia)
2nd: Neil Jones - Nataliya Kravets (England)
3rd: Gregor Rebula - Lisa Darby (England)
4th: Michael Miziner - Valeria Kozharinova (USA)
5th: Igor Volkov - Ella Ivanova (Russia)
6th: Ryan Terry - Kateryna Gontarenko (England)

Semi Final
Maxim Petrov - Elisabet Haraldsdottir (Iceland)
Martino Zanibellato - Michelle Abildtrup (Denmark)
Artem Okhrimenko - Alexandra Nelyubina (Russia)
Gary Wright - And Partner (England)
Dmitry Matveev - Alena Ershova (Russia)
Nikita Bazev - Natalia Borodaenko (Russia)

[SDsalsaguy]

Blackpool results for Monday, May 31, 2004...

Professional Rising Star Ballroom
FINAL
1st: Victor Fung - Anna Mikhed (USA)
2nd: Brian Eriksen - Marianne Eihilt (Denmark)
3rd: Jeffrey Qi - Olivia Zhang (Hong Kong)
4th: Stefano Fanasca - Michela Battisti (Italy)
5th: Richard Perry - Natalie Perry (New Zealand)
6th: Shozo Ishihara - Toko Shibuya (Japan)

Semi Final
Anton Du Beke - Erin Boag (England)
Fabrizio Cravero - Lorena Cravero (Italy)
Tomo Shiraishi - Kaori Shiraishi (Japan)
Sergey Mikheev - Anastasia Sidoran (Russia)
Nicola Bini - Laura Lunetta
Hide Miyajima - Sumie Shimizu (Japan)


Senior Latin
FINAL
1st: Miquel Alonso Granero - Eva Angues Jolans (Spain)
2nd: John Co - Edna Asana (Philippines)
3rd: Daniele Ferraris - Antonella Ciccarelli (Italy)
4th: Petr Bartunek - Eva Bartunkova (Czech Republic)
5th: Claus Wolfer - Beatrix Leibfried (Germany)
th: Sean Madden - Carole Madden (England)

Semi Final
Ullrich Sommer - Carmen Sommer (Germany)
Marcel Ste-Marie - Monique Thivierge (Canada)
Andres Hernandez Salmeron - Mari Puertas Ocana (Spain)
Jorg Heberer - Alexandra Heberer (Germany)
Davide Galluzzi - Monica Bonechi (Italy)
Martyn Long - Elaine Long (England)
Hans-Juergen Gross - Martina Gross (Germany)

[dr daffy]

wow, this is interesting. i've never heard of this stuff before :shock: so cool! haha... i love the names of all these dancers... so unique and exotic :P

[pygmalion]

As to filming it, obviously there must be some cameras there or they wouldn't be able to sell videos after the event. I think the point is more that there is insufficient interest from the TV networks and/or insufficient lobbying from the organisers. Alternatively they might be trying to protect their lucrative trade in videos...

Robin

I suspect that might have something to do with it. :roll: After all, if the videos make it to television, there's nothing to prevent anyone from making their own copies on VHS or even DVD.

[SDsalsaguy]

Also keep in mind a couple of other items...

(1) Blackpool doesn't really need any additional publicity. They have no trouble selling out all their seats and many, many standing room only tickets as well every single year. Indeed, to get a seat close to the floor typically takes years of uprgrading.

(2) Ballroom is a lot more popular in Europe than it is in the U.S. and probably doesn't really need the media exposure many of us feel would be a boon.

None of this is to say that it wouldn't be nice but, rather, that their really wouldn't be benefits to/for this event.

[pygmalion]

True, SD. The publicity probably isn't needed in the way Americans might think.

[SDsalsaguy]

Blackpool results for Tuesday, June 1, 2004...

Amateur Latin
FINAL
1st: Franco Formica - Oksana Nikiforova (Germany)
2nd: Riccardo Cocchi - Joanne Wilkinson (Italy)
3rd: Klaus Kongsdal - Viktoria Franova (Denmark)
4th: Eugene Katsevman - Maria Manusova (USA)
5th: Peter Stokkebroe - Kristina Juel (Denmark)
6th: Evgenii Smagin - Rachael Heron (England)

Semi Final
Matej Krajcer - Iwona Golczak (Slovenia)
Mauro Rossi - Karina Rubio (Spain)
Stefano Di Filippo - Annalisa Di Filippo (Italy)
Maurizio Vescovo - Melinda Torokgyorgy (Hungary)
Derek Hough - Annetta Piotrowska (Poland)
Andrius Kandelis - Egle Visockaite (Lithuania)


Under 21 Ballroom
FINAL
1st: Mark Elsbury - Olga Alissievitch (England)
2nd: Sergey Konovaltsev - Olga Konovaltseva (Russia)
3rd: Aleksander Makarov - Katrin End (Estonia)
4th: Andrey Chubarev - Yulia Saikina (Russia)
5th: Salvatore Todaro - Violeta Yankova Yaneva (Bulgaria)
6th: Dmitri Krupnov - Agata Kozhevnikova (Russia)

Semi Final
Tom-Erik Nilsen - Pia Engelberg Lundanes (Norway)
Ilia Maleko - Kimberly Taylor (England)
Sergiu Rusu - Mirona Gliga (Romania)
Cosimo Caramia - Antonella Decarolis (Italy)
Luca Rossignoli - Veronika Haller (Italy)
Rustam Shayakhmetov - Olga Blinova (Russia)

[CC]

I believe what SD is saying - I'm just surprised that networks over there (BBC, etc) don't televise at least some of Blackpool seeing as it is such popular sporting event. The fact that tickets are so scarce would be all the more reason to let other fans at least watch it on the tele.

[SDsalsaguy]

Blackpool results for Wednesday, June 2, 2004...

OVERALL Professional Latin
FINAL
1st: Bryan Watson - Carmen Vinceli /Germany
2nd: Slavik Kryklyvyy - Karina Smirnoff /USA
3rd: Dmitry Timokhin - Anna Bezikova /Russia
4th: Andrej Skufca - Katarina Venturini /Slovenia
5th: Michael Malitowski - Joanna Leunis
6th: Michael Wentink - Beata Onefather /USA
7th: Matthew Cutler - Charlotte Egstrand /England

Professional Latin :arrow: Cha Cha
FINAL
1st: Bryan Watson - Carmen Vinceli /Germany
2nd: Slavik Kryklyvyy - Karina Smirnoff /USA
3rd: Dmitry Timokhin - Anna Bezikova /Russia
4th: Andrej Skufca - Katarina Venturini /Slovenia
5th: Michael Malitowski - Joanna Leunis
6th: Michael Wentink - Beata Onefather /U S A

Semi Final
Matthew Cutler - Charlotte Egstrand /England
Maksim Chmerkovskiy - Elena Grinenko /USA
Jay Park - Nicole /England
Paul Green - Aleksandra Aleksandra /USA
Paul Richardson - Olga Rodionova /USA
Sergey Ryupin - Elena Khvorova /Russia

Professional Latin :arrow: Samba
FINAL
1st: Bryan Watson - Carmen Vinceli /Germany
2nd: Slavik Kryklyvyy - Karina Smirnoff /USA
3rd: Dmitry Timokhin - Anna Bezikova /Russia
4th: Andrej Skufca - Katarina Venturini /Slovenia
5th: Michael Malitowski - Joanna Leunis
6th: Michael Wentink - Beata Onefather /USA

Semi Final
Matthew Cutler - Charlotte Egstrand /England
Egor Vyshegorodtsev - Natalia Petrova /Russia
Jay Park - Nicole /England
Paul Green - Aleksandra Aleksandra /USA
Paul Richardson - Olga Rodionova /USA
Sergey Ryupin - Elena Khvorova /Russia

Professional Latin :arrow: Rumba
FINAL
1st: Bryan Watson - Carmen Vinceli /Germany
2nd: Slavik Kryklyvyy - Karina Smirnoff /USA
3rd: Dmitry Timokhin - Anna Bezikova /Russia
4th: Andrej Skufca - Katarina Venturini /Slovenia
5th: Michael Malitowski - Joanna Leunis
6th: Michael Wentink - Beata Onefather /USA
7th: Matthew Cutler - Charlotte Egstrand /England

Semi Final
Sergey Ryupin - Elena Khvorova /Russia
Paul Richardson - Olga Rodionova /USA
Paul Green - Aleksandra Aleksandra /USA
Jay Park - Nicole Nicole /England
Vlad Pavlov - Svetlana Polianina /Russia

Professional Latin :arrow: Paso
FINAL
1st: Bryan Watson - Carmen Vinceli /Germany
2nd: Slavik Kryklyvyy - Karina Smirnoff /USA
3rd: Dmitry Timokhin - Anna Bezikova /Russia
4th: Andrej Skufca - Katarina Venturini /Slovenia
5th: Matthew Cutler - Charlotte Egstrand /England
6th: Michael Malitowski - Joanna Leunis

Semi Final
Sergey Ryupin - Elena Khvorova /Russia
Paul Richardson - Olga Rodionova /USA
Paul Green - Aleksandra Aleksandra /USA
Jay Park - Nicole Nicole /England
Michael Wentink - Beata Onefather /USA
Maksim Chmerkovskiy - Elena Grinenko /USA

Professional Latin :arrow: Jive
FINAL
1st: Bryan Watson - Carmen Vinceli /Germany
2nd: Slavik Kryklyvyy - Karina Smirnoff /USA
3rd: Dmitry Timokhin - Anna Bezikova /Russia
4th: Andrej Skufca - Katarina Venturini /Slovenia
5th: Matthew Cutler - Charlotte Egstrand /England
6th: Michael Wentink - Beata Onefather /USA
7th: Michael Malitowski - Joanna Leunis

Semi Final
Maksim Chmerkovskiy - Elena Grinenko /USA
Jay Park - Nicole Nicole /England
Paul Green - Aleksandra Aleksandra /USA
Paul Richardson - Olga Rodionova /USA
Sergey Ryupin - Elena Khvorova /Russia


Modern Formation
1st: Brigham Young University Ballroom Formation Team
2nd: Team Diablo Formatzione

[robin]

(2) Ballroom is a lot more popular in Europe than it is in the U.S. and probably doesn't really need the media exposure many of us feel would be a boon.

I wish! Ballroom is not nearly as popular in Britain as you might imagine. The "Strictly come dancing" show is very much a novelty thing to see how funny the celebreties cope with such an exotic artform ;). While there are a lot of great coaches and some very good dancers here, there are very few people taking it up these days, which is why most successful competitors now seem to come from eastern europe...

Dancing is a lot more popular on the continent (for example in Germany) than in England and it would be great if Blackpool got some TV (or at least newspaper) coverage. Most people in the UK have no idea the Blackpool dance festival is going on and "Strictly Come dancing" is probably the first time they've seen "competitive" ballroom. Even social ballroom seems to be the preserve of the over-70s with the exception of university clubs.

Anyway, Blackpool Pro Latin results sound very interesting! Wish I could have been there, some of my friends went and said it was fantastic, but I'm stuck in a dark lab all day... Incidentally, tickets can just be bought on the door, it's only seating tickets that are hard to come by!

Robin

[marykomatsu]

Did anyone see or hear about the Victor Fung awards incident? I heard the Fungs were very upset and also that the Blackpool organizers were upset too.

[SDsalsaguy]

Did anyone see or hear about the Victor Fung awards incident? I heard the Fungs were very upset and also that the Blackpool organizers were upset too.
Please do tell...

[kwa445]

Blackpool results for Wednesday, June 2, 2004...

Modern Formation
1st: Brigham Young University Ballroom Formation Team
2nd: Team Diablo Formatzione

:shock: WAHOO! GO BYU! :D hehe I'm a big BYU fan, so I'm very excited that they won! (again, haha) I'm excited to see what happens on Friday w/the latin formation championships. Anyway, back to the Blackpool discussion...

[marykomatsu]

I was not there, but 2 different people who were told me the basic thing: apparently when Victor won RS he took a very long time bowing. Then his whole family filed down onto the dance floor to congratulate and take photos. This took up quite some time and disrupted the announcement of the 2nd place winners Brian & Marianne. (Blackpool goes for 1-6, rather than 6-1.)

Next night the announcer Peter Maxwell (I think) gave quite a lecture about the "rude" disruption caused by the Fungs and asked Marianne and Brian to stand up and take an applause they deserved from the night before.

From one account I heard, the Fungs looked really rude and selfish, from another account, the British were very harsh and not understanding. So I wonder if anyone else saw this thing and had an opinion.

[SDsalsaguy]

Blackpool results for Thursday, June 3, 2004...

Professional Exhibition
The Professional Exhibition Competition is on Invitation only. The couples are free to compose their routine according their own flavour and expression skills, lifts and special costumes are allowed.

This year the following couples were invited and the result were as follows:

1st: Ernest and Samantha Iouvilov (Italy)
2nd: Brian Jolly and Kristina (USA)
3rd: Bing Cheng and Karen La Jia Qu (China)
4th: Remco Bastiaansen & Charissa van Dipte (The Netherlands)
5th: Juan Borrali & Alla Profitlova (Canada)
6th: Martin Pisna and Renata Gregorova (Czech Republic)

The Judges
Mr. Rufus Dustin (USA)
Mr. Jason Gilkison (Australia)
Mr. Paul Harris (England)
Miss Takako Suzuki (Japan)
Mr. Lee wakefield (USA)


Amateur Ballroom
FINAL
1st: Domenico Soale - Gioia Cerasoli (Italy)
2nd: Arunas Bizokas - Edita Daniute (Lithuania)
3rd: Sascha Karabey - Natascha Karabey (Germany)
4th: Warren Boyce - Kristi Boyce (England)
5th: Federico Ditoro - Genny Favero (Italy)
6th: Paolo Bosco - Silvia Pitton (Italy)

Semi Final
Marat Gimaev - Alina Basyuk (Russia)
Maxim Kotlov - Elena Uspenskaia (Russia)
Stefano Soldati - Annalisa Longo (Italy)
Domen Krapez - Monica Nigro (Slovenia)
Benedetto Feruggia - Claudia Koehler (Germany)
Andrea Ghigiarelli - Sara Andracchio (Italy)

[SDsalsaguy]

Blackpool results for Friday, June 4, 2004...

Latin Formation
1st: Brigham Young University Latin Formation Team (Trained by Lee & Linda Wakefield)
2nd: Botafogo Dance Ensemble (Trained by Tibor Dalotti)
3rd: South of England Latin Team (Trained by Melanie Walker and Britta Schneidereit)
4th: XS Latin Formation Team (Trained by Bruce Lait)

OVERALL Professional Ballroom
1st: Christopher Hawkins - Hazel Newberry (England)
2nd: Timothy Howson - Joanne Bolton (England)
3rd: Jonathan Wilkins - Katusha Demidova (USA)
4th: Mirco Gozzoli - Alessia Betti (Italy)
5th: Alan Shingler - Donna Shingler
6th: Jonathan Crossley - Lyn Marriner (England)
7th: Giammpiero Giannico - Ieva Pauksena (USA)

Professional Ballroom :arrow: Waltz
FINAL
1st: Christopher Hawkins - Hazel Newberry (England)
2nd: Timothy Howson - Joanne Bolton (England)
3rd: Jonathan Wilkins - Katusha Demidova (USA)
4th: Mirco Gozzoli - Alessia Betti (Italy)
5th: Alan Shingler - Donna Shingler (England)
6th: Jonathan Crossley - Lyn Marriner (England)

Semi Final
Roberto Villa - Morena Colagreco (Italy)
Tony Dokman - Amanda Dokman (Netherlands)
Roberto Giuliato - Serena Picco (Italy)
Giampiero Giannico - Ieva Pauksena (USA)
Michele Bonslgnori - Monica Baldasseroni (Italy)
Victor Fung - Anna Mikhed (USA)
Koji Hiyama - Kumiko Hiyama

Professional Ballroom :arrow: Foxtrot
1st: Timothy Howson - Joanne Bolton (England)
2nd: Christopher Hawkins - Hazel Newberry (England)
3rd: Jonathan Wilkins - Katusha Demidova (USA)
4th: Alan Shingler - Donna Shingler (England)
5th: Mirco Gozzoli - Alessia Betti (Italy)
6th: Jonathan Crossley - Lyn Marriner (England)

Semi Final
Roberto Villa - Morena Colagreco (Italy)
Brian Eriksen - Marianne Eihilt (Denmark)
Alexey Galchun - Tatiana Demina (Russia)
Tony Dokman - Amanda Dokman (Netherlands)
Giampiero Giannico - Ieva Pauksena (USA)
Michele Bonslgnori - Monica Baldasseroni (Italy)
Victor Fung - Anna Mikhed (USA)

Professional Ballroom :arrow: Tango
FINAL
1st: Christopher Hawkins - Hazel Newberry (England)
2nd: Timothy Howson - Joanne Bolton (England)
3rd: Jonathan Wilkins - Katusha Demidova (USA)
4th: Mirco Gozzoli - Alessia Betti (Italy)
5th: Jonathan Crossley - Lyn Marriner (England)
6th: Alan Shingler - Donna Shingler (England)

Semi Final
Roberto Villa - Morena Colagreco (Italy)
Tony Dokman - Amanda Dokman (Netherlands)
Roberto Giuliato - Serena Picco (Italy)
Giampiero Giannico - Ieva Pauksena (USA)
Michele Bonslgnori - Monica Baldasseroni (Italy)
Victor Fung - Anna Mikhed (USA)

Professional Ballroom :arrow: Quickstep
FINAL
1st: Christopher Hawkins - Hazel Newberry (England)
2nd: Timothy Howson - Joanne Bolton (England)
3rd: Jonathan Wilkins - Katusha Demidova (USA)
4th: Mirco Gozzoli - Alessia Betti (Italy)
5th: Giampiero Giannico - Ieva Pauksena (USA)
6th: Jonathan Crossley - Lyn Marriner (England)
7th: Alan Shingler - Donna Shingler (England)

Semi Final
Roberto Villa - Morena Colagreco (Italy)
Brian Eriksen - Marianne Eihilt (Denmark)
Michele Bonslgnori - Monica Baldasseroni (Italy)
Victor Fung - Anna Mikhed (USA)
Koji Hiyama - Kumiko Hiyama (Japan)

[robin]

Wow, looking at the Pro ballroom marks, it was very close in all the dances except Quickstep (where really almost everyone agrees that Chris and Hazel are best).

But in both the Waltz and the Tango, Tim and Jo were within 1 mark of winning... so the results could easily have been reversed!

Robin

[Warren J. Dew]

I only managed to make it to the Blackpool Library on Wednesday, when it was closed, so I wasn't able to report earlier - sorry about the delay!

First impressions: Friday, 28 May

This is the first time I've watched the Senior at Blackpool. I know roughly the quality of the final, having seen various finalists at other competitions, but I'm unfamiliar with what the earlier of the six rounds are like. I'm expecting that the first round will be rather weaker, as is true in the other events at Blackpool that I've watched.

It turns out I am wrong. With few exceptions, the hundreds of dancers cut in the early rounds are not very much weaker than those that make most of the cuts. I count 14 U.S. couples in the program, of which only 3 make the first cut - and the U.S. is considered relatively strong in the Senior category.

Not wanting to stay until 5 am U.S. time, we leave early. We later find that at least one U.S. couple made the semifinal.

Saturday, 29 May

The morning "practice session" is as crowded as always, though there hasn't previously been such a session on Saturday. It is split into three heats of perhaps a hundred couples each. The few who actually try to practice are constantly bashing into others. The remaining 95% get a good warm up.

The first round of a new event - the "Amateur Rising Star". All but the top 12 of the "Amateur" category are allowed in this event, along with all of the Youth (under 21). It appears to me very slightly weaker than the first round of the Amateur last year. My partner thinks it is just as strong.

I was worried about the floorcraft danger in this event, as the youth competitors have a reputation for crashing through with high speed and little control. I'm pleasantly surprised to find the opposite - nearly all the couples seem willing to do their part in avoiding collisions. Perhaps the coaching emphasis has changed. Richard Gleave, the daytime chairman and MC, also seems surprised and relieved - he doesn't have to issue any floorcraft warnings at all, and in fact compliments the competitors on this after they have danced.

[pygmalion]

Thanks for the report, Warren. It sounds like an invaluable experience. 8)

[Warren J. Dew]

Monday 31 May:

We watch the Professional Rising Star competition from the first round, as we know Victor Fung and Anna Mikhad will be in it. They don't disappoint - they fly around the floor at high speed whenever no one is in the way, and are the only couple for whom this size of floor seems a limitation. What's more, they make it all look so easy and relaxed, in contrast with most high speed couples, who seem to labor at it. We're very happy to see them win.

Wednesday 2 June:

The qualifying round for the "Amateur" Ballroom. Entries are down to 255 this year from 280+ last year, and they've decided to remove one round. That will make it much more difficult to make the first cut, of course - especially since most of the people who dropped out for this year are probably those who did so from discouragement at not making the cut last year. No doubt many of those who made it last year and miss it this year will drop out next year as well, absent some other change.

By the time the event begins, I've already given up on making the cut. Instead, I decide to dance only for myself, the way I'd like to dance. Good thing, as the early heats look much stronger last year - it looks more like last year's second qualifying round than like the first qualifying round.

Unlike Saturday, the competitors in this event generally aren't interested in doing their part in collision avoidance, dancing with looks that clearly indicate that they are going to charge on through. As a result, I do a lot of collision avoidance myself - though since I'm dancing only for me, I don't mind so much. Our coaches seem impressed that we manage to make it through all four dances without a single collision.

Thursday 3 June:

We watch the rest of the "Amateur". While the first round was stronger than last year, the final seems weaker. It seems like most of the finalists have been in it for years, and really don't seem to have improved much. It seems like the difference in quality between the first round and the final is compressing over the years, and we wonder if that is also the reason for the relatively uniform standard we've observed in the Senior. Interestingly, this is not the case for the professional events.

[SDsalsaguy]

Great to get your "from the scene" perspectives Warren, thanks for sharing!

Question: were you there for the Awards when Victor and Anna won? I'm curious what your perspective was on the situation marykomatsu mentioned...

[Sakura]

What can you all tell me about this couple from Germany, Bryan Watson and Carmen Vinceli, and the couple from the USA, Slavik Kryklyvyy and Karina Smirnoff? These two couples took first and second (respectively) overall in Latin, and in every event under that category!

They must be *VERY* good to have achieved this, and I don't want to sound like I'm crawling out from under a rock asking who they are, but I'm curious to know! I'd very much like to be expanding my knowledge of competing couples within my first year being in this exciting world of Dance!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

(PS- It's amazing to me how much I've learned since I first came onto this site, and how much I'm sure I still will learn between now and September (my one year mark), so, thanks to everyone who posts and answers my questions, and just makes this Forum an awesome place all around! :D :D You guys really are awesome!

Also, SD and WJD, thanks a *TON* for keeping those of us who can't be either at Blackpool or keeping up with it informed as to everything that's going on there! :wink: Great work.

...This story with the Fungs is getting very interesting! More perspectives, come forward!)

[Warren J. Dew]

Regarding the Fungs, yes, I was there for the announcement of the awards, though not for the announcement the next day that I can remember.

First, a bit of background. In the professional championships, each dance is announced individually. Because there are a lot of announcements, people don't generally take a very large amount of time accepting applause - even the competitors want to know the result in the next dance. Perhaps because of this example, competitors in the other events, such as the Rising Star that we are talking about, don't generally take that long to accept applause either, even though they only come out once.

So, what I remember is that Victor and Anna did spend a bit more time accepting applause than is typical at Blackpool - though not more time than is typical in the U.S., where I believe they've done most of their competing. I think this was Anna's first Blackpool final. Perhaps a bigger factor was that they were clearly the crowd favorites, so the applause was going on strong for a long time - it might even be considered impolite to turn your back on a crowd that's cheering for you!

I think Brian and Marianne may have been announced before the applause had died down for Victor and Anna, and Brian and Marianne might have felt that robbed their fans of a chance to show their support. They certainly looked unhappy in the lineup, though I attributed that to the fact that they were expecting to win, and hadn't accounted for Victor and Anna appearing virtually out of nowhere as far as they could tell.

To the extent there was a problem, I'd say it was due to an inexperienced MC who failed to properly judge the audience and time his announcements accordingly. That may also be the night when he was running half an hour late because of an earlier mistake that had required the rerunning of a heat in an earlier round, in which case he might already have been performing less than optimally (Blackpool usually runs within 30 seconds of schedule).

[SDsalsaguy]

Hmmm, interesting. I just got of the phone with a friend of mine who was there who had a different take on it. My friend's account was that when Victor and Anna were announced there ended up being over 20 photographers on the floor snapping away and that Peter Maxwell had to ask all but the official photographers* to leave the floor. Normally it is only after all the couples are on the floor, in a line up, that people come out to take photos and, because the 1st place couple was announced first and drew this response, this is what caused the disruption that held up the remaining result announcements.


* For those who do not know, there are only four official photographers who are allowed on the floor/edges (and, just FYI, the German Open is the same way).

[DancePoet]

SD and WJD: Thanks for the coverage you have provided!

I'm not familiar yet with most of the names of these couples, but between these results and the photos posted elswhere, perhaps I can begin becoming acquainted and more aware of who is at some of the bigger comps over here in the U.S. Thank you!

[Elizabeth]

In response to the question about the Rising Star awards announcement... My memory is better that Warren's, so I'll give my account of what happened.

There was a great deal of cheering for Victor and Anna, and rightly so. They danced beautifully, and were clearly the favorites of the majority of the crowd, not just the Americans. They did take a few bows, but it certainly didn't seem like very long to me, and the crowd was certainly very loud in their applause. Once they received the cup and the flowers, the official photographers came out to take their picture, and a number of other people rushed up to where the photographers were so that they could also take pictures. This was the proximate cause of Peter Maxwell's initial remarks. He asked that everyone who was not an official photographer leave the floor, stating that it was not fair to the other couples.

Warren and I were not in the ballroom on Tuesday, so we can't comment on anything that might have been said then. There were lectures at the Imperial Hotel for North American competitors that ended up running until 7pm, and we decided to get in a little practice afterwards. That combined with an early morning for me the next day meant that we skipped the Tuesday session entirely.

I can't help but think that there must have been a better way of handling the situation. Combined with they way in which the result was read, I was left with the impression that Mr. Maxwell was not happy that Victor and Anna had won the Rising Star and would have preferred the second place couple. I know its probably unfair to contrast him with Bill Irvine since I only heard Bill announce after many year experience, but I always got the impression from Bill Irvine that he was simply delighted with the every result he read.

[Elizabeth]

Ack, I took too long to write my post and SD got to the bit about the photographers before me. Sorry for redundant information. But yes, there were about twenty in addition to the four official photographers, so the account of SD's friend matches my memory of the event.

[SDsalsaguy]

Thanks for the confirmation Elizabeth. Since your recollection matches the account I was given earlier today I'd say that, at the least, this describes the framework for what happened.

Always good to have as much confirmation as possible too! :D

[Warren J. Dew]

I just realized that I hadn't posted anything about the Latin at all. Hm, I'll start with the team match.

There were a lot more people in the audience for the team match than there had been last year - probably because, perhaps for the first time ever, Great Britain was facing a serious challenge. While they did have probably the strongest single ballroom and latin couples in the team match, the U.S. had the same number of finalists - three out of the four couples making up the team - who finished nearly as high last year, and the fourth U.S. couple was a very strong semifinalist, while the fourth British couple was not.

In the event, though, I felt that the U.S. Latin couples did not dance their best, and in fact the Russian Latin couples got a larger cumulative score than the U.S. Latin couples in at least one dance. Meanwhile, all the British couples were definitely dancing their best. So Britain still won, after all.

Okay, on to the pro Latin.

In answer to the question, Brian Watson and Carmen are pretty much the undisputed best Latin couple in the world. They were #2 at the last Worlds that Donnie & Gaynor won a few years back, and went back and forth with a couple of other couples for a few years until those couples retired. To my mind, Brian and Carmen won pretty easily this year, though I thought they were not quite at the peak they were at at the USBC last fall - perhaps the lack of a challenge from Paul Killick had something to do with that.

Slavik and Karina have been coming up the ranks for a few years, I believe. I like Karina's dancing very much, but I have to admit I think Slavik sometimes seems overly aggressive, particularly in his floor placement.

[Warren J. Dew]

I'd forgotten about the photographers until now.

I would note that even after the unofficial photographers left the floor, the four official photographers continued taking pictures for ten or twenty seconds, so there wasn't actually any overall delay ... and I don't see how Victor and Anna could be blamed for that, anyway.

I'd be interested in hearing more about any announcement that was made on Tuesday.

[Sakura]

:D Thanks for the background on the couples, Warren!

So, from everything I've gotten about the comentary concerning Victor and Anna, am I also to understand that these two were *blamed* for the events surrounding them that they had no control over??? :shock: :? If so, that doesn't sound quite right.

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[SDsalsaguy]

Hiya SK, Dance Notes did an interview with Bryan and Carmen that you can view here (http://www.dancenotes.com/article07.html) if you’re interested. I actually did the photos that went with that article, this photo (http://www.dance-forums.com/album/showphoto.php?photo=15&password=&sort=1&cat=2&page=5) being one of them. Aside from what Warren has already mentioned Brian & Carmen traded Blackpool titles with Jukka and Sirpa before they retired from competition (here’s a shot from their retirement show (http://www.dance-forums.com/album/showphoto.php?photo=47&password=&sort=1&cat=2&page=2)).

Karina competed with and won the US Pro Latin title with Louis van Amstel a few years ago as Slavik was competing and winning the Amateur World Latin title with Joanna Luennis. Just after they won both couples switched partners and Slavik & Karina have been pushing their way up the ranks *very* quickly. Here are just a couple of the many shots of Slavik & Karina (my favorite Latin couple) that I have up in the DF Photo Album: S&K1 (http://www.dance-forums.com/album/showphoto.php?photo=296&password=&sort=1&cat=2&page=2) and S&K2 (http://www.dance-forums.com/album/showphoto.php?photo=295&password=&sort=1&cat=2&page=2).

DancePoet…my pleasure. I was really bummed not to be able to go to Blackpool this year myself, but am happy if my coverage has been helpful and/or interesting.

Just as an aside, and since they’re a topic of discussion, here’s a shot of Victor and Anna (http://www.dance-forums.com/album/showphoto.php?photo=433) (although unfortunately you can’t see her face).

Speaking of which...
I'd forgotten about the photographers until now.

I would note that even after the unofficial photographers left the floor, the four official photographers continued taking pictures for ten or twenty seconds, so there wasn't actually any overall delay ... and I don't see how Victor and Anna could be blamed for that, anyway.

I'd be interested in hearing more about any announcement that was made on Tuesday.
Doing some ballroom photography myself I do see how the other photographers may have been in the way. While you say that the official photographers still took an additional 10-20 seconds it strikes me that it might have only taken them 10-20 seconds in the first place if *not* for all the others. I do agree, however, that that is in no way Victor's and Anna's fault/responsability if that is all there was to this.

I have yet to get a report on any announcement from someone who was there so I want to hold off on any comments to that. All I'll say is that if the only thing done was to try giving recognition to those who were "lost in the shuffle" as it were, than that strikes me as both fair and reasonable. So... was anyone there who can comment?

[Sakura]

Great pictures, SD! ...Except for that the dress Karina is wearing in those two pictures really strikes me as wearing nearly *nothing*!!!!! :shock: :shock: Must one really wear so little to garner attention and points during competition? It really seems like more of a strip show to me... Unless I'm just being overly concerned about it, and there are *far* worse outfits... *strokes her chin* But, thank you very much for them anyway! No offence meant to anyone who likes Karina's dress in that picture! :oops: :oops:

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[Warren J. Dew]

Doing some ballroom photography myself I do see how the other photographers may have been in the way.
A tangent, but now I'm curious ... what constitutes "in the way" for photography? The other photographers were behind and to the sides of the official ones, but there were certainly plenty of flashes going off; would that interfere?

[SDsalsaguy]

Doing some ballroom photography myself I do see how the other photographers may have been in the way.
A tangent, but now I'm curious ... what constitutes "in the way" for photography? The other photographers were behind and to the sides of the official ones, but there were certainly plenty of flashes going off; would that interfere?
I wasn't there so didn't see what actually what happened but, if the other photographers really were off to the sides and behind than no, that shouldn't interfere too much. All the extra flashes can wash out a shot but most modern cameras can compensate automatically... but this also depends what settings are in use, etc.

Just to recount a related experience from the 2002 German Open: while I was not one of the four photographers allowed on the floor during compettion I did have a Press Pass and was registered as a photographer so, during line-ups, I would move onto the floor. I always made a point to let the four "official" photographers pick their places first before I'd set myself and start framing up. I can't tell you how many audience members (with point and shoot and even disposable cameras) would rush up, jostle us from the side, get in my shot, and even step in front of the four main photographers. Assuming that even some of this happened during the incident we'd been discussing I could see how that would disrupt and hence delay the shooting of the official photographers... and hence my original comment to that effect.

P.S. SK, would this dress (http://www.dance-forums.com/album/showphoto.php?photo=30&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=3) of Karina's be more to your liking?

[Sakura]

*nod nod* Uh-huh! I suppose the other one was okay, I know I'd seen on other topics here on DF discussion on types of dresses, it's just very shocking, at least to me, to see that. Maybe you other "competition-hardened" dancers aren't bothered by it so much.

Of course, my reaction to the dress *might* be from the fact that if my mother saw me in that, she might send me to a Convent! :lol: :lol:

Thanks for finding me another picture! :D

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[pygmalion]

You crack me up, SK! Yes. Some of the Latin costumes do get a little ... small, don't they? :lol:

[Sakura]

*grins and bows* Happy to amuse the Crown-ed Ones! (And anyone else who happens to appreciate my humour!)

Small? Try, microscopic! Hmm, I wonder if my old Honors Bio. teacher would want one of those rare specimens, do you think? 8) :wink: Or, we could try and search for the thought-extinct, "Completely Cover-us!"

*looks up at the typing* :shock: Too much science on the brain today... Must get back to practicing Salsa... :wink:

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[Adwiz]

Great pictures, SD! ...Except for that the dress Karina is wearing in those two pictures really strikes me as wearing nearly *nothing*!!!!! :shock: :shock:

At least she's wearing a dress. Compared to this performer (http://www.picture-this.ca/SB_04_web/Showcase/pages/D6X_2399.htm) she's wearing quite a bit.

[Elizabeth]

I've seen much less than even that. For a while there was a local girl who wore a latin costume that I swear looked like there was nothing to it except some orange fringe.

SD, based on your description of in the way, I don't think the extra photographers were in the way. Obviously no one can know for sure except the official photographers themselves. I cerainly have no problem with the extra photographers being asked to leave, its just the other stuff I find questionable.

[Warren J. Dew]

Hiya SK, Dance Notes did an interview with Bryan and Carmen that you can view here (http://www.dancenotes.com/article07.html) if you’re interested.
Thanks for the link - great article! Interesting that Carmen didn't start until age 17 ... more evidence that you don't have to start at age 2 to succeed.

[SDsalsaguy]

Thanks for the link - great article! Interesting that Carmen didn't start until age 17 ... more evidence that you don't have to start at age 2 to succeed.
My pleasure Warren. I've actually been thinking baout this a bit... I think that Carmen's story makes it evident that if one wants it bad enough and is willing to work hard enough they can excell even without starting as early as others do/have. At the same time, however, I'm not sure that the same thing could happen again as the elite ranks seem to be getting deeper over time. Who knows though?

[Antti]

Really inspiring story indeed, i thought myself too old when i started at the age of 10. ;)

[SDsalsaguy]

OK, I've made a few more phone calls about the Victor/Anna thing and, from all accounts, the additional photographers were the only visible presence on the floor. The next night, however, Peter Maxwell commented about family and friends having disrupted the remainder of the placement announcements and that this could not be repeated. Everyone I’ve spoken with felt that Peter’s comments – in length if not also in tone – were not proportional to the incident in question. While I have heard this same account from several people who were there and none of who even know each other, I do want to say, again, that I wasn’t there myself.

While I never attended Blackpool while Bill Irvine MBE was running things, I have been there the past two years and had felt like Peter Maxwell had a handle on things… for those who’ve been to Blackpool in the past couple of years and this year, was there a difference?

[Warren J. Dew]

Difference between last year and this year, or difference between Bill Irvine and Peter Maxwell?

[SDsalsaguy]

Difference between last year and this year, or difference between Bill Irvine and Peter Maxwell?
I'd meant between Peter Maxwell over the past two years vs. this year, although any commnets regarding Bill/Peter would be interesting as well.

[Elizabeth]

I'd meant between Peter Maxwell over the past two years vs. this year, although any commnets regarding Bill/Peter would be interesting as well.

He made more mistakes this year, at least that I caught.

The Fungs thing was a bit similar to the Killick/Wentik thing last year, though probably a bit more over the top if he went on for 10 minutes. (As I said, I wasn't in the ballroom on Tuesday.)

Its probably not fair to compare Peter Maxwell to Bill Irvine without acknowledging that Bill Irvine had two huge advantages. The first is that at the time I heard him MC he had way more experience than Mr. Maxwell. The second and probably more important advantage that Bill had was Bobbie. In his retirement speach he gave us all a pretty good idea of what Bobbie did for him while he was MCing, including a rundown of every time she though he was rude, or too loud, or too long winded, etc. I imagine that one of the reasons that Bill did such an incredible job as MC was that he knew who he had to answer to if he did not.

Bill Irvine obviously took the job very, very seriously, but he never took himself too seriously. He often chastised the competitors for their floorcraft, though almost always in an entertaining way. I don't recall him ever chastising the audience. I don't recall Bill Irvine ever misreading a number. Most of his comments were quite short, and often witty. He always sounded enthusiatic about every result he read, as though no one could be more happy for the couple in question than he was. He always controlled the event, but it never felt as though he were trying to control it. It was clear that Bill had a huge ego, but he was willing to laugh at himself, which made it OK, and his sense of humor came across really well.

[Warren J. Dew]

Like Elizabeth, I also noticed more errors this year than last.

There were quite a few cases where recall heats were missing a couple. In the one case that seems to be getting the most scrutiny, it turns out that the couple's number was called incorrectly, denying the couple a chance to dance. I have to wonder whether this may have happened in other cases as well, and just not been caught.

Also, Peter was regularly one to two minutes late getting back to the stage after a break. Normally that wouldn't be a big deal, but the musicians are so used to running on time that they tend to end a song exactly when the break is scheduled to end, leaving an uncomfortable silence if the MC isn't there yet.

I wonder if Bill Irvine, in the last couple of years, wasn't playing the same role for Peter Maxwell that Bobbie had previously played for Bill, making his absence this year more of an issue.

I do remember Bill Irvine misreading a number once or twice. He always corrected it immediately, though.

Elizabeth's point about the audience may be an important one. Bill Irvine never, ever said anything bad about the audience, except when clearly joking; it was always clear that he was on the audience's side. In Peter Maxwell's interview on the 2002 Blackpool Professional tape, Peter makes a point about how he competed in almost all the categories at Blackpool and thus understands all the issues the competitors face, but he says nothing about the audience.

[Sakura]

Sounds like Bill was a great MC! How come he's not doing it anymore?

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[Elizabeth]

Sounds like Bill was a great MC! How come he's not doing it anymore?

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

He retired because his wife had cancer. She passed away the a week and a half ago.

[SDsalsaguy]

Sounds like Bill was a great MC! How come he's not doing it anymore?

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

He retired because his wife had cancer. She passed away the a week and a half ago.
Here's the notice I posted about it SK --> Sad News (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3857)

[SDsalsaguy]

Thanks for the comments Elizabeth and Warren. As I'd said, I'd seen Peter "in action" the past two years and it hadn't seemed as problematic as all the reports I keep hearing this year so was curious what first hand comparisons would be. While I wouldn't presume to claim that I know Bill very well at all, I have interviewed him, and everything you both say matches my impression of him as well.

The only point I'm not sure I agree with is the Paul/Michael item from last year. I thought he was "within bounds" (for lack of a better term) in telling them to cool their antics. Now given where I happened to be sitting at that time I didn't have the best vantage point...

[Warren J. Dew]

I didn't really have a problem with his telling Paul & Michael to cool it a bit, though I wasn't actually watching them at the time and didn't see whether the rivalry was friendly (by the accounts I later heard, it was). What I did somewhat object to was his then telling the audience they shouldn't have been applauding for the two couples while it was happening. Telling the audience to cool it when they are paying the bills is not cool.

But I think it's time to work on another post about the dancing.

[SDsalsaguy]

Thanks Elizabeth and Warren for indulging me... so, now back to this posts of robin's:
Wow, looking at the Pro ballroom marks, it was very close in all the dances except Quickstep (where really almost everyone agrees that Chris and Hazel are best).

But in both the Waltz and the Tango, Tim and Jo were within 1 mark of winning... so the results could easily have been reversed!
Wow, the marks really were tight, weren't they? :shock:

As robin says, QS clearly went to Chris & Hazel (8/11 1sts), but the other dances were tighter. Foxtrot went to Tim & Jo with 5/11 1sts, with Chris & Hazel and Jonathan & Katusha both receiving 3/11 1sts, and Tim & Jo getting 10 2+ vs. Chris & Hazel's 7 2+. The tight dances, however, were Waltz and Tango. Tim & Jo actually took 5 1sts to Chris & Hazel's 4, but on the 2+ marks Chris and Hazel took it 10 to 9 so, as robin said, one mark would've flipped the results. Similarly, Tango was won by Chris & Hazel by a margin of 9 vs 8 2+ results. Beyond these tight results Jonathan & Katusha pulled 1st place marks in each dance as well!

Aside from various conversations about which judges judged which way and who's dancing is "really" better (yuck!), I think this all indicates some really exciting years to come in ballroom dancing. All of these couple clearly have what it takes to produce top notch dancing and to get the judges marks, so I think they all know that, every time out, they're "in it"... that, to me, promises some exciting dancing! :D

[Sakura]

Sounds like Bill was a great MC! How come he's not doing it anymore?

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

He retired because his wife had cancer. She passed away the a week and a half ago.
Here's the notice I posted about it SK --> Sad News (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3857)

:oops: :cry: :oops: :cry: :oops: :cry: Oh my! I was hoping it *wasn't* for a reason like that -- I hate souding oblivious and unfeeling... *winces*

Thank you for the news, Elizabeth, and the link, SD. My condolences to the family.

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[Warren J. Dew]

Friday 4 June:

We start watching the pro ballroom early, as Victor and Anna are dancing from the first round. They don't seem quite as energetic as on monday, but are still great; perhaps they aren't as worried about these early rounds now, and are just concentrating on not running over slower moving couples. Out of the other 11 heats of about 20 couple each, I spot one other couple that stands out despite not having an exemption. It turns out they are Gozzoli and Betti, who won the amateur the last two years; rather a different style from Victor and Anna. Gozzoli and Betti don't have as much body flight, but have very clean technique, and better foot action than I remember them having as the winners of the amateur last year.

At 6pm, we move to seats in the balcony that we bought from people who left on Wednesday. Things look very different from the balcony: one sees movement more, and technique becomes less visible, particularly the feet.

The strongest couples have two rounds of exemption and join the competition in the third round. Pino & Bucciarelli are not called; they must have withdrawn.

Watching Victor and Anna in the semifinal is interesting. They are still having to concentrate on not running over the other couples! Body flight and distance are certainly not things they have to work on at this point. From the balcony, I think they may make the final in some dances, perhaps ahead of Crossley and Marriner, but they do not. Perhaps Crossley and Marriner have cleaner foot action, or something else that is not so visible from the balcony.

In the final, I watch mostly the two British couples, Christopher Hawkins & Hazel Newberry and Timothy Howson & Joanne Bolton. Things have not changed that much since last year; Howson & Bolton are still cleaner, Hawkins & Newberry still more energetic. Howson & Bolton's natural turn is not quite as perfect as last year, but the rest of their waltz is better; their basic actions in tango are superb, but unfortunately they only do a bar or two of them per dance. Hawkins & Newberry seem to have a cleaner top than last year.

Jonathan and Katusha still look good, though I think they could go even further in terms of relaxing their shoulders and top.

The other finalists are good, but not as strong as the first three. Giampiero & Pauksena make the final in the quickstep only, and, being fresh, dance it very well.

[SDsalsaguy]

The other finalists are good, but not as strong as the first three. Giampiero & Pauksena make the final in the quickstep only, and, being fresh, dance it very well.
Great point Warren... the other couples in that final had not had the same break. Thanks for the rest of the review as well. The difference in perspectives from floor level to balcony is an interesting one. Have you ever gone up tot the second balcony on either of the short sides? Wow! What an intersting vantage point -- especially for the ballroom events.

[Elizabeth]

An additional note to Warren's comments on Friday--

The vast majority of the pros were not setting a good example when it came to floorcraft. There was a whole lot of crossing the center line, charging around the floor, failing to avoid other couples, and some going against LOD. Honestly, the floorcraft in the Rising Star Amatuer was better. I was watching Wilkins and Demidova for most of their first foxtrot, and I swear they must have spent the entire dance just avoiding other couples who were not doing their part of the floorcraft. Luckily Wilkins' floorcraft is very good so they avoided any collisions, and its not like they were in danger of not making the cut, but I can't help but think how unfair it was. Having spent the first qualifying round of the amateur in full collision avoidance mode knowing that we wouldn't make it back, he certainly had my sympathy.

[robin]

Aside from various conversations about which judges judged which way and who's dancing is "really" better (yuck!)

I think these discussions are fair game. If there's no public discussion there will always be conspiracy theories etc. What I don't like is when every single mark that deviates from the consensus is seen as "dishonest" when in most cases it's probably just a question of what a particular judge preferred / when he looked / what he thinks is a good interpretation of the dance.

As an example take Chris and Hazel's quickstep. I personally think it's absolutely fantastic and a league above all the others, but 3 judges thought otherwise. They probably think that Chris and Hazel's quickstep has gone too far into jumps and skips and bounces and speed.

Particularly in Blackpool most judges appear to be quite "impartial". Most of them are former champions themselves and are held in high regard by the dancing community. I think they see their loyalty to the dancing world as a whole rather than to a particular country or a particular couple.

For this reason i think it's very important that judges for the major events are chosen for their personal history, rather than going down the figure-skating route and letting national federations put forward a judge each. I think "Marcus Hilton" and "Luca Barricchi" are much less likely to be biased than "the english judge" and "the italian judge"...

Robin

[DanceAm]

Since many judges are "former" champions, don't you think that keeps a certain tradition about the dance? All the dancers want to stand out and get noticed, but they can't hide all the other aspects of being judged through showmanship and originality. These judges keep things grounded so it doesn't become a free-for-all on the floor and maintain an identity of the dance.

My question is, are the Champions the innovators? Do they make an original style that everyone copies? Should each couple develop their own style and let the judges shoot it down or reward it with high marks? Does technique prevail even at the highest levels?

[robin]

> Since many judges are "former" champions, don't you think that keeps a certain tradition about the dance?

I'm not sure that's true. I think if the championship judges had never been competitors or champions, they would be a lot more conservative. If you imagine a system whereby judges had learnt their skills from a technique book only, dancing would never change.

I think people like the Hiltons, Barricchis and all the other ex-champions that still play a very active part are prepared to look at new styles and make up their mind rather than rejecting everything unorthodox that a judge who goes "by the book" might do.

So yes, I think at a certain level the top pros have to strive to create their own style, to try new things and see how it's received. Tango has changed dramatically mainly due to italian dancers, and if you see a latin video from 15 years ago it's sometimes hard not to laugh because it looks so different. (and I'm not just talking about the costumes).

I think this is a good thing and the world of dancing would be much poorer if styles and interpretations were constant for all eternety...

William and Allessandra's website says:
"Art only begins when imitation ends"

http://www.william-alessandra.it

Robin

[Sakura]

Elizabeth, if you don't mind my asking, in your last post, you mentioned something about many couples going against LOD. What does "LOD" stand for?

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[SDsalsaguy]

Hopefully Elizabeth won't mind my jumping in here, but LOD = Line Of Dance (counter-clockwise around the floor).

[Sakura]

Hopefully Elizabeth won't mind my jumping in here, but LOD = Line Of Dance (counter-clockwise around the floor).

=^_^= Hopefully she won't. Thanks SD! 8) More terms to be filed away! *evil laughter*

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[Elizabeth]

I don't mind you jumping in SD.

Sorry Sakura, I shouldn't assume that everyone knows all the acronyms.

[Warren J. Dew]

I think these discussions are fair game. If there's no public discussion there will always be conspiracy theories etc. What I don't like is when every single mark that deviates from the consensus is seen as "dishonest" when in most cases it's probably just a question of what a particular judge preferred / when he looked / what he thinks is a good interpretation of the dance.
In this spirit, I'll say that I think the experiment of having non-British judges was very interesting.

If you look at the professional ballroom marks in the finals, the two non-British judges had very different opinions from the British judges as to who should win. I think they were voting honestly - I'm even pretty sure I know what they value more that caused them to vote differently - but the difference is interesting.

These marks didn't affect the overall placement of the couple they favored, where the other judges had a pretty strong consensus on how good that couple was. However, because of the closeness of the top two couples, their marks did have the effect of reversing the placement between those two couples, who were both British!

I'm not sure what to think of that....

Regarding "what he thinks is a good interpretation of the dance", the nonBritish daytime judge gave a lecture at one point during the week. In the lecture, he talked about a number of things he wanted that were different from traditional English ballroom. It was very interesting to find out how all the things I didn't like about his dancing were things he was doing on purpose. At least I now understand where he was coming from!

[Sakura]

I don't mind you jumping in SD.

Sorry Sakura, I shouldn't assume that everyone knows all the acronyms.

Hey, no problem! Actually, when people use the acronyms I don't know, and then I ask, I remember them. It was ages ago when I saw SD use CBL for Cross-Body-Lead, and even though I knew the move, I hadn't known the acronym (I think we need one for that word... =-_-=). So, I asked, and I still remember!

=^__^= Knowledge is power. (Power corrupts. Study hard. :twisted: )

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[elegance]

Warren's post was interesting, about the differences between British and non-British judges at Blackpool. Would you have any examples of the kinds of things that are valued by dancers/judges from different backgrounds? Maybe this is a separate topic altogether- I'm just really curious about this.

[robin]

Warren's post was interesting, about the differences between British and non-British judges at Blackpool.

I think this is actually not true in general. I've been playing around with a spread sheet to look at the correlation between the judges. The two non-british judges marks in general are no more or less correlated than any of the other judges (based on the pro ballroom final). If the non-british judges were generally looking for different things, you'd expect their marks to show greater agreement with each other than with the other judges, which i don't think is the case...

The only notable agreement between the non-british judges was that they placed Jonathan Wilkins and Katusha Demidova first overall, whereas just about everyone else had them 3rd. Similar cases where two judges agree on a particular couple coming higher/lower than the others thought are very common, even in this set of marks. The only reason this case attracts attention is that it's for 1st place.

Another interesting observation was that judge "I" was in almost 100% agreement with the final result in all 4 dances for all 6 couples. The only difference was that she had Mirco & Alessia 3rd in the Tango rather than 4th. Whether this indicates superior judgingin ability (agreeing with the consensus of the other experts) or just conservatism is of course another question ;). But seeing there was significan variation in the results between different dances, it's quite remarkable that she always managed to agree with the majority on all placings!

Anyway, I'll stop overinterpreting the marks and will try to get my dancing up to scratch. I fully intend to make it up to Blackpool next year, certainly to watch, but ideally also to dance!

Robin

[pygmalion]

You did an actual statisical analysis of the results, loking for correlations with the judges' marks? Cool! I don't think that's overanalysis. If anything weird was going on, it would pop right out the data.

[Warren J. Dew]

My question is, are the Champions the innovators? Do they make an original style that everyone copies? Should each couple develop their own style and let the judges shoot it down or reward it with high marks? Does technique prevail even at the highest levels?
Champions are often innovators, though they are not the only ones who innovate. In particular, champions who are well ahead of the field, as the Hiltons and Burns/Fairweather were, are more free to choose their own direction without having to pay so much attention to results. On the other hand, Sinkinson also developed his own style which was widely admired and respected, even though it never quite got him to the top.

Champions are much more widely copied than other innovators - after all, if you're going to copy, why copy #2 when you can copy #1? Thus, they tend to influence much larger numbers of competitors than other innovators.

Technique is certainly important at the highest levels. Howson & Bolton have their own style that truly emphasizes technique - innovative in this day and age when technique is often neglected - and they are regularly winning the foxtrot and are getting plenty of first place marks in other dances.

[dave_aw]

Well it seems that Bryan and Carmen are so far ahead of the field now that they could almost do whatever they wanted, but I haven't seen anyone really copying their style.

Interestingly I heard a rumour that Slavik might dance with Hannah and dump Karina. Anyone think it'll help him beat Bryan? I don't - I personally rate Karina higher than Hannah.

[SDsalsaguy]

Personally I find more "warmth" in Karina's presentation... and me likes! :D

[Chris Stratton]

If the non-british judges were generally looking for different things, you'd expect their marks to show greater agreement with each other than with the other judges, which i don't think is the case...


I don't know that two people who each have slightly different priorites than a traditional group should necessarily have common priorities with each other. Once you strike out on your own, there's a world of possibilties. "Other" is a category only in the sense of what it isn't, not in the sense of what it is.

[robin]

I don't know that two people who each have slightly different priorites than a traditional group should necessarily have common priorities with each other. Once you strike out on your own, there's a world of possibilties. "Other" is a category only in the sense of what it isn't, not in the sense of what it is.

Warren suggested that rather than "other" they both had similar ideas about the way they like to see dancing which led both of them to favour Jonathan and Katusha. If this was true I would expect them to differ more with the other 9 judges than with each other.

Even if you just assume that the 9 British judges form a "traditional group" with the two non-british judges judging somewhat differently, you'd expect the british judges marks to correlate more with each other than with the "outsiders", this is not the case.

While I haven't done any sort of analysis that would stand up to critical review, my impression is that statistically there is no suggestion of bias anywhere. The only reason that the preference of Jonathan and Katusha was more notable was in that it was for 1st place...

Robin

PS Warren, what do you suggest the non-british judges were looking for that they preferred ?

[Elizabeth]

Interestingly I heard a rumour that Slavik might dance with Hannah and dump Karina. Anyone think it'll help him beat Bryan? I don't ...

I don't either. My knowledge of latin is very limited, but from seeing the two of them dance, I'd say that the main advantage that Bryan has is very clean technique. Swapping ladies would probably only set Slavik back, as he'd have to spend time adjusting to a new partner instead of working on perfecting his dancing.

[dave_aw]

Interesting. I'd say the opposite really, I think that Slavik's technique is significantly superior to Bryan's but he doesn't have the 'X' factor of projection and charisma that Bryan does. If you watch Bryan on some of the Superstars videos from Japan, then you can see him do endless wierd things that aren't normal technique. Then again, as my teacher said when I complained that I was only trying to do what Bryan did: "But its wrong. Bryan makes it look good because talent makes s*** shine!"

I also think that Karina has better technique than Hannah, though she does seem to tip her pelvis back and hence have it out of line with her spine which makes it look like she's sticking her bum out - a problem I'm very familiar with as I do it myself :)

[Chris Stratton]

Question for those who saw Blackpool.

Is the kind of stiffly angular frame where the guys look like they have both arms skewered on a common stick as "in" over there as it seems to be in the US? I'd personally prefer a very slightly rounded, more natural look, though of course still very toned and present.

I notice the 'stiff' arms also often seem to go with a more open left elbow than I'd think proper... but I don't really have non-US video to compare to in determining what the 'standard' of Standard really is. (I know I did see some of this same look at the IDSF 10-dance event that was shown on A&E last year, but then that's not quite as traditional a field as Blackpool).

[Warren J. Dew]

If you watch Bryan on some of the Superstars videos from Japan, then you can see him do endless wierd things that aren't normal technique.
Well, if you limit the definition of "technique" to what's in the syllabus book, you're not going to find much at the open level - not a lot of syllabus latin figures at Blackpool.

Here's an example of what I mean by technique: you know those things that people do in jive where they jump around on one foot while they do all sorts of stuff with their upper bodies and even their free leg? When Brian does them, his supporting foot comes down in the same place every hop - if there were a coin on the floor, the toe of his foot would cover it every time. For most people, when they do those hops, their supporting foot wanders around each time - the coin would be exposed on 95% of the hops.

Brian looks just as exact in the rest of his dancing.

[pygmalion]

Wow! :D

[dave_aw]

Don't get me wrong, I think Bryan is absolutely wonderful. He is a great dancer - superb balance and control. Yes Warren, he probably does do what you describe, but interestingly if you look at some basic figures that he does do (even a simple cha lockstep) then he's not as 'perfect' as Slavik. The difference is that with him you don't care as he has enough charisma and performance level that you only notice after watching the video about 50 times :lol:

[Warren J. Dew]

Particularly in Blackpool most judges appear to be quite "impartial". Most of them are former champions themselves and are held in high regard by the dancing community. I think they see their loyalty to the dancing world as a whole rather than to a particular country or a particular couple.
I agree. And even more important than their being former champions is that many of them have also coached other couples to the top. Getting to the top means you know how to do it for one person; coaching others to the top means you know how to do it for multiple people, and what it looks like from the outside.

[Kitty]

Interesting. I'd say the opposite really, I think that Slavik's technique is significantly superior to Bryan's but he doesn't have the 'X' factor of projection and charisma that Bryan does.

Brian also has a great butt!
All the girls from my team are in love with his butt!
No one from our team ( not even the boys) liked Carmen though. She doesn't have same charisma, and her butt wouldn't stand the comparison either...

[Warren J. Dew]

Would you have any examples of the kinds of things that are valued by dancers/judges from different backgrounds?

I'm not sure this is an example of "different backgrounds", but Luca Baricchi explicitly stated, for example, that a big top was better supported on a big base. A couple days later we had a lesson with an English coach who explicitly said "we teach small base big top". Baricchi also said he thought arching one's back to maintain contact was fine, something I think many coaches would disagree with, though certainly most of the Italian dancers did seem to arch their backs quite a bit, especially in the amateur.

Question for those who saw Blackpool.

Is the kind of stiffly angular frame where the guys look like they have both arms skewered on a common stick as "in" over there as it seems to be in the US? I'd personally prefer a very slightly rounded, more natural look, though of course still very toned and present.

What was most common at Blackpool was a slight gentle slope from neck to elbows. In general I think the British judges don't care as much about exactly where the arms are as that the arms be toned but relaxed. Note that, with sufficient flexibility, "toned but relaxed" does not preclude both upper arms from having a common axis - in fact, I think that a straight arm line from elbow to elbow can work well if the lady is as tall as the man, as with Stephen and Lindsey Hillier when they were competing.

I think the non-British judges this year don't worry as much about a small amount of tension, or at least more tone, in the arms.

I notice the 'stiff' arms also often seem to go with a more open left elbow than I'd think proper...

The wild left hands on the men were unfortunately near universal this year. I don't think that's as much a comment on what the judges want as on what the judges have to choose from.

[pygmalion]

I love and hate this thread, to be honest. I'm learning so much, but doggone it, I have to get to Blackpool. Maybe next year? I don't require good seats, necessarily. I have binoculars and a good zoom lense. I just need to see the action for myself. (Note that competing isn't, and probably never will be, on my radar scope? Just watching will be plenty. :oops: :lol: :wink: )

[Genesius Redux]

:lol: You're such an Anglophile anyway, Jenn! You definitely have to go. Maybe we should take up a collection for you! :lol:

[pygmalion]

No. I propose another "plan," this one -- destination Blackpool. :wink: :lol:

[dave_aw]

To anyone who's not been to blackpool all i can say is

GO!

It was one of the most inspiring things I have ever been to in my life. Apart from the dancing you are continually rubbing shoulders with the best in the world. Its just breathtaking!

[Sakura]

No. I propose another "plan," this one -- destination Blackpool. :wink: :lol:

*starts the Mission: Impossible music*

Could it be a stop on the DF World Cruise? :D

... I'm with you on loving/hating this topic; although the hate, besides coming from not being at Blackpool, comes from not knowing who any of these people are, so I feel so ignorant!!! (And well, for a little "know-it-all" like me, that's a very irritating feeling! :roll: )

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[Chris Stratton]

I notice the 'stiff' arms also often seem to go with a more open left elbow than I'd think proper...

The wild left hands on the men were unfortunately near universal this year. I don't think that's as much a comment on what the judges want as on what the judges have to choose from.

Watching Christopher Hawkins during the show at Yankee, I wasn't convinced that his left elbow was all that much more closed, or forearm all that much more more vertical than what I've been seeing on US-based competitors. Though his arms did seem a bit more natural rather than stiff (speaking not in terms of elbow altitude, but rather how it seems to be accomplished).

Perhaps I should I find other things to worry about at least in the short term.

[robin]

Watching Christopher Hawkins during the show at Yankee, I wasn't convinced that his left elbow was all that much more closed, or forearm all that much more more vertical than what I've been seeing on US-based competitors. Though his arms did seem a bit more natural rather than stiff (speaking not in terms of elbow altitude, but rather how it seems to be accomplished).


I think the angle and position of the man's left arm are very strongly dependent on the body-proportions of both partners.

Hazel is pretty much the same height as Chris, so her arms are probably comparatively long. So when she is in her position on his right side and has her right arm extended in a nice line his arm is still somewhat extended. It also means that his upper arms are almost horizontal whereas with a shorter partner they would slope downwards more. If you look at photos of Pino & Bucciarelli or Howson & Bolton (both with a bigger height difference) the man's left arm tends to be more angled, otherwise they'd drag their partner in front of them...

I think the important part is the body position and the arms follow almost as a natural consequence. I think that if it looks "strained" then something is wrong and it's not as pleasing to watch as someone who can create the same big line while looking "relaxed".