Easiest Swing Dance to Learn?

[pygmalion]

Okay, so for a total and complete swing dance newbie who has had no lessons, what is the easiest dance to pick up from scratch? And could he/she have fun the first time out at a swing dance, without any previous training? Could he/she fake it somehow? And, on the other end of the spectrum, what is the most difficult dance to learn, in your experience?

[suek]

I learned with what the teacher called Street Style ECS (basically single time east coast: step step rock step). It was very easy to pick up.

Beware though: the transition to lindy hop was challenging.

Going from step step rock step to step step triple step step step triple step at double the tempo had me nuts for a couple of months.

[Vince A]

Beware though: the transition to lindy hop was challenging.

. . . to step step triple step step step triple step at double the tempo had me nuts for a couple of months.
Is there any wonder why I struggled with the stuff that you and Damon worked on with me . . . everything was the opposite of what I hae strived to learn for ten years!

However, I am still practicing that stuff, and am going to take a few group classes here in Modesto. I'd like to get back w/you and Damon down the road when Lindy feels more natural to me.

I agree . . . the transition IS challenging :shock:

[suek]

However, I am still practicing that stuff, and am going to take a few group classes here in Modesto. I'd like to get back w/you and Damon down the road when Lindy feels more natural to me.Any time, Vince. (Gentle push:) It was when I started taking privates w/D that I started to get a real foundation in this dance. Don't wait too long.

[Vince A]

However, I am still practicing that stuff, and am going to take a few group classes here in Modesto. I'd like to get back w/you and Damon down the road when Lindy feels more natural to me.Any time, Vince. (Gentle push:) It was when I started taking privates w/D that I started to get a real foundation in this dance. Don't wait too long.
I missed this, and responded to you in another post . . . I won't wait too long . . .

[Sagitta]

Single time ECS is easiest to learn, but better to learn triple time ECS / WCS/ lindy. The transition between these dances is easier then going from single time IMO.

[Spitfire]

By far and away the single time.

It's a good step for someone who is new to learn, but it's not one I care much for doing anymore.

[suek]

By far and away the single time. It's a good step for someone who is new to learn, but it's not one I care much for doing anymore.Yeah. Me too. Once LH got in my blood, and bal, and charleston. It's a musical thing, for me. Single time ECS doesn't swing. Y'know?

[Spitfire]

By far and away the single time. It's a good step for someone who is new to learn, but it's not one I care much for doing anymore.Yeah. Me too. Once LH got in my blood, and bal, and charleston. It's a musical thing, for me. Single time ECS doesn't swing. Y'know?

For me to do it at all the music has to be just right otherwise it has a rather ackward feel to it. Triple time ECS is much smoother, but even this has downgraded for me somewhat since I started doing WCS three months ago.

Now, if the lindy scene here ever makes a recovery I'll give that a shot as well; I can do some, but not enough to feel complete with it.

[suek]

Now, if the lindy scene here ever makes a recovery I'll give that a shot as well; I can do some, but not enough to feel complete with it.I'm having a serious deja vu here. If I've given you this info before, please forgive it. Here's www.azswingnetwork.com / Phoenix area. Great LH scene. Give yourself the gift and give Dabs and Binky my love.

[pygmalion]

Single time ECS is awful for me. Too slow. Always has been. I preferred double from day one, and lots of people think that's the most difficult tempo. Maybe I'm just weird. :oops: :lol:

[DWise1]

A good part of which swing dance was hardest or easiest could well depend on the order in which you learned them.

So in the order that I learned them:

First, single-step ECS. We caught on fairly quickly, so, even though this was the very first, I tend to think of it as one that especially a follower can pick up quickly.

Second, Lindy Charleston. We were first taught this in the afore-mentioned ECS class. It took me a week of practicing it at home to start to get the hang of it. This would be a bit difficult for a beginner; I'd say second hardest.

Third, WCS. This was our first introduction to triple-steps, but I don't recall that being any problem for me. Took a while to get the hang of whips, but then I tried it again after having been away from WCS for a year and a half and was immediately doing whips on the dance floor with no problem (except maybe with a bit of an East Coast accent). Also, I just returned to intermediate-level WCS class last night after a 2-year absence doing entirely new moves for the very first time and my partners were expressing their relief that they finally had a partner who knew how to do the moves. Plus, I've always found the WCS lead easy because I just apply my Aikido training.

So, WCS was a bit harder than ECS at first, but it has been the easiest to retain. At the same time, I find it to be more difficult to improvise in WCS.

Fourth, ECS w/ triple-steps. Thanks to my WCS training, this transition was very easy to make. Without WCS, it would have been a bit more challenging, but not by much.

Fifth, Lindy. The hardest. This is the dance that I continually go through manic-depressed cycles over; sometimes I feel I'm doing great, and then I get deeply frustrated over how terribly I'm doing. Although my WCS whips helped me with the swingouts at first, I have a terrible time on the dance floor timing the lead for them and transitioning into and out of them smoothly (I'm still very dependent on my partner's skill here).

And if I've been away from it for a while (used to take only a couple-few weeks), then I'd be lost for a while until I would get the feel back again. Years absence from WCS hardly put a dent in my ability to dance it (except for having forgotten some of the fancier moves I had learned), but I have to keep in almost constant practice with Lindy.

At the same time, I also find it more natural to improvise in ECS and Lindy on the dance floor.

Sixth, Balboa. A bit of a challenge at first. I haven't worked on it anywhere near as much as on Lindy, but it doesn't seem to be as hard.
BTW, one night we danced Balboa to the "Triples of Belleville" song and it was surprisingly challenging.

[Jmatthew]

Our general method for teaching follows to lindy is based off single time east coast swing, since it makes a nice smooth curve up into Lindy if taught right.

Start with single time ECS in the standard open position.
Then teach triple time ECS in the standard open position.
Then teach triple time ECS in closed, to a throw out.
Now all you have to add is the middle step-step and a good follow can do a pretty passable Lindy swing-out.

Doesn't always work, but for a quick 20 minute rush-a-follow-to-lindy sequence it works often enough. :)

[pygmalion]

That sounds great, jmatthew. So I'm not hopeless after all! :oops: :lol:

[Sagitta]

So Pygmalion how is the lindy going? Okay Jmatthew that is for the follows. What about the leaders and lindy. I actually now remember that when I started learning lindy way back I liked starting lindy with the throwout. I could get that pretty well, and it would start me in teh right place rather then starting from open position. Also I found it a good way as both my partner and are could get in synch with ecah other and the music. I have actually seen a lot of leaders start in closed position with a throw-out. These are old memories so am I correct with these thoughts/impressions? Anyone?

[jdavidb]

I have actually seen a lot of leaders start in closed position with a throw-out

I'm still wondering what a swingout from closed looks like. I'm guessing we do 3 through 8 as a regular swingout. Is the 1 & 2 just back rocks for both, or is there some other sort of directional encouragment?

[DWise1]

I have actually seen a lot of leaders start in closed position with a throw-out

I'm still wondering what a swingout from closed looks like. I'm guessing we do 3 through 8 as a regular swingout. Is the 1 & 2 just back rocks for both, or is there some other sort of directional encouragment?
Actually, it's quite common for us; we do it quite a bit in our intermediate classes.

Basically:
1 2 -- Rock step. The lead doesn't move back on the rock step, or at least keeps it small, while at the same time leading his partner to move back on the rock step by extending his right arm back.

3 & 4 -- the lead "cuts her off" by moving in front of his partner and squaring off to her, while keeping her from moving forward (keeps his right arm extended back and his left hand ready to offer stubborn resistent should she try to start moving forward [I've had to use this with beginning WCS follows when they try to rush the lead on 1]).

At this point, you're in the same position as in a swingout from open, so the rest of the move is also the same.

Part of our swingout, which has been criticized here, is that we start to draw our partner towards us during the 4, though that could also partly be the effect of relaxing the extension we got in the 3 & . So I will state here that whatever you normally do at 4 you should be doing at 4 here too.

Hope that made sense.

[jdavidb]

Yeah that makes plenty of sense. Now I have one more way to get out of closed position. Thanks Dwise

[Sagitta]

You know 3/4 people at the swing dance tonight said that I should learn WCS and lindy. I love smooth dancing, unlike jitterbug/ECS. So, WCS, lindy and AT are on my dance class list. For lindy I can do the throw-ouit from closed, I can do the let the follow go down the slot and underam turn and a couple variations thereof, getting into charleston via an inside turn...but the elusive swingout still eludes me. :(

[DWise1]

You know 3/4 people at the swing dance tonight said that I should learn WCS and lindy. I love smooth dancing, unlike jitterbug/ECS. So, WCS, lindy and AT are on my dance class list. For lindy I can do the throw-ouit from closed, I can do the let the follow go down the slot and underam turn and a couple variations thereof, getting into charleston via an inside turn...but the elusive swingout still eludes me. :(
When introduced to the beginning class, the instructor says that it's the hardest move in Lindy. He also alludes to what my old WCS instructor said about the whip (very similar move): after you've done it about 500 times you start to get the swing of it.

It's not that bad, but it is one of those things you just have to do over and over again until you develop the feel for it. As a lead, I've had the most trouble fitting a smooth leading of it into a dance. But I'm getting there.

[d nice]

I think that the question is really about how good you want to be.

If you teach ecs as single step, mirrored action it is the easiest. Once you get into actual lead follow technique, non-mirrored moves, frame, posture etc. you start having as much of a steep learning curve as the other dances... and while the oversimplified footwork in the basic step is quick to pick up... it doesn't work for traveling moves or turns very well... which means they end up having to learn alternate footwork which they use in specific moves... actually complicating the process....

[Jmatthew]

Okay Jmatthew that is for the follows. What about the leaders and lindy.

Unfortunately there's not really a "quick" way to learn Lindy for leads. We usually tell leads about a few classes they can pick up, or our group practice session where we can teach them over a couple of weeks.

The way we teach follows isn't really a "quick" way to learn Lindy either, but it works well enough for a night, then we can get them in a class or to our practices and build on that very weak foundation.

I actually now remember that when I started learning lindy way back I liked starting lindy with the throwout. I could get that pretty well, and it would start me in teh right place rather then starting from open position. Also I found it a good way as both my partner and are could get in synch with ecah other and the music. I have actually seen a lot of leaders start in closed position with a throw-out. These are old memories so am I correct with these thoughts/impressions? Anyone?

For a starter I usually use a westie throw out. I just feel like it gives me more time to get into music than an 8 count throw-out. It's pretty rare that I see anyone do anything else around here, but we're all pretty eclectic dancers, so we do very few "pure" dances.

[d nice]

Westie throw out? How is a slotted throw out better than the normal lindy hop six count throw out?

[Jmatthew]

I should have said west coast starter step. It's 12 counts, just gives a lot of time to get into the feel of the song. I'm sure there's a Lindy Hop version of the same move, it's nothing particular nifty, I've just never been introduced to it by way of Lindy. :)

[DWise1]

I should have said west coast starter step. It's 12 counts, just gives a lot of time to get into the feel of the song. I'm sure there's a Lindy Hop version of the same move, it's nothing particular nifty, I've just never been introduced to it by way of Lindy. :)
There are several different WCS starter steps. Our advanced class (and the intermediate class in olden days), does/did a:
rotating triple step (rotating to the man's left 90 degrees)
bump
rock'n'roll (rock step to walk-through becoming a spin during which we catch her on the back and she ends up in closed position again)
bump
tuck-turn
now she's out in front and ready to dance.

Our beginning and intermediate WCS classes now do a much shorter version:
The couple triple-steps to the man's left
With hand compression, he leads her to triple step to her left while he "puts her behind him"
He breaks forward to bring her out in front, changing her right hand from his right to his left.
now she's out in front and ready to dance.

One ECS teacher (I've only made it to one pre-dance lesson) started us off with two triple steps and then a rock-step, just the opposite of what I'd always been taught. However, all the rest of the moves seemed to start with the rock-step. My assumption from this is that the two triple-steps served as the starter step.

But in our Lindy class we learn and practice the way that I prefer. We start to slow-dance during the intro and I time our first rock-step with the beginning of the first phrase. I've heard some call this "ramping up" and I think a Frankie Manning tape had him calling it "jockeying". Whatever you want to call it, it just makes sense. I mean, how could we just stand there doing nothing when swing music has started to play?

[Flat Shoes]

3 & 4 -- the lead "cuts her off" by moving in front of his partner and squaring off to her, while keeping her from moving forward (keeps his right arm extended back and his left hand ready to offer stubborn resistent should she try to start moving forward [I've had to use this with beginning WCS follows when they try to rush the lead on 1]).


A tip for the girlies here, seek the mans right arm with your back. That means sit/push back a little while squaring to face the mans chest. This creates a nice connection at this point in the swingout. A lot of girls don't do this.


But in our Lindy class we learn and practice the way that I prefer. We start to slow-dance during the intro and I time our first rock-step with the beginning of the first phrase. I've heard some call this "ramping up" and I think a Frankie Manning tape had him calling it "jockeying". Whatever you want to call it, it just makes sense. I mean, how could we just stand there doing nothing when swing music has started to play?


I just do anything that fits the moment. If walking the girl on the dancefloor after the music has started, I often create som tension and start leading her into back twists, or I lead her past me into a spin or just anything I feel like at the moment. If already on the floor when the music starts, and standing in or near closed position, I might do the slow dancing thing. Or some tension 'excercises' to feel her out that way. The point is, I don't start in any set way, I just go with the moment.

[DWise1]

A tip for the girlies here, seek the mans right arm with your back. That means sit/push back a little while squaring to face the mans chest. This creates a nice connection at this point in the swingout. A lot of girls don't do this.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

I have also had several girls do that to me, mostly in the beginning class (I'll join in if we're short on guys and I always need to work on my basics). They'll just kind of float there just off of my hand. It feels terrible, especially during a swingout! I can't feel where she is and I have a terrible time trying to lead her. One time, a beginner did that to me and we had time to do it again, so I coached her on putting her back into my hand this time. Her face really lit up that time when she felt the magic too.

The only thing that feels worse is when she either grips my hand or my shoulder tightly. Try doing a swingout when she won't let go of your right shoulder.

Other than that, my pet peeve is when I turn her into closed position and I put my hand on her back as she's turning, but she doesn't bring her elbow up to go into closed and her left arm ends up pinned under my right arm instead of resting on top of it where it belongs. All my instructors have told me about that button on her back that brings her arm up into position, but it's like most girls never got that button installed.

[jdavidb]

Wait 'til you get a girl who twists to her left to try to kinda jog foward through a swingout. One of 'em was doing that to me recently, and it's like I had to chase her left shoulder blade just to keep my hands off of her chest. Later, I had the idea to push her right hand way behind her until she straightened up. I don't know if that would have worked, but I'm not really interested in having to do major adjustments to a girl during a dance anyway.

[DWise1]

Wait 'til you get a girl who twists to her left to try to kinda jog foward through a swingout. One of 'em was doing that to me recently, and it's like I had to chase her left shoulder blade just to keep my hands off of her chest. Later, I had the idea to push her right hand way behind her until she straightened up. I don't know if that would have worked, but I'm not really interested in having to do major adjustments to a girl during a dance anyway.
I've gotten that a lot and especially from beginners just learning the swingout. Coming forward with her left speed bump leading the way hurtling straight for my right hand. Scares me every time -- we guys get trained so well to worry about inappropriate contact, even when unintentional, that when we learn a chest-to-chest position such as in Balboa it's the guys who are really uncomfortable and shy and the girls who complain about the guys keeping too far away for them to feel the lead.

I'm still at the stage where I believe that I should be able to lead her so that she will have turned in time to avoid that scare (takes a year off my life each time and I don't have that many years left! [grin]), plus to be able to compensate for the other things she hasn't learned to do right yet. As it is, I'm still very sensitive to my partner's ability in the swingout -- overly sensitive, I believe.

[Sagitta]

Another close one is AT, close as close gets!! :wink: :)