Bronze to Silver: New Steps vs. Better Form?

[tangoking]

With the goal of moving from bronze to silver, and limited floor time, where should I invest myself? Is it better to focus on learning new steps, patterns, and routines, or work on fundamentals with the basic steps, or some other focus?

[latingal]

I guess it depends what your short and long term goals are for dancing. Are you a competitive and/or social dancer? What style(s) are you focusing on?

[Flyingkamakiri]

I want to compete in higher levels, but only when my coach admits that my technique matches the level. Especially, since i represent my teachers way of teaching and the studio, I want to make sure that I'm at my technical best.

I would go for technique rather then patterns.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

One doesn't have to dance silver material in a silver competitive event. I can think of at least one local couple that has been winning or placing in silver and gold events with only bronze material. They keep it simple and maintain a nice frame, while many of their competitors are breaking frame to get into wing. On the other hand, silver opens up some good options. For example, silver quickstep figures like V6 and Quick Open Reverse allow you to use the center of the floor, unlike the bronze figures which pretty much keep you hugging the sides of the floor. Silver waltz allows you to use the Progressive Chasse to Right/Outside Change combination and Weave from Promenade, both of which flow better than the bronze Basic Weave, and especially Natural/Reverse turns and Closed Changes.

I think you should almost always be working on fundamentals. But sometimes, it can be worth it to divert attention to new figures. I think it would depend on:
-How much you already have of the fundamentals needed to support the new figure
-How much time/effort you would need to invest in the new figure
-How much the new figure could show you to better advantage

[fascination]

one the other hand...if your fundamentals are truly good and you understand them quite well then incorporation of those principles into new steps should be no big deal...nothing compared to learning your bronze steps when you very likely had very little technical understanding...

[biggestbox]

myself 5 years ago would answer technique, but nowadays i say steps first. your body needs practice with the steps, so you need to learn them quickly. Or course you will place better in competition dancing bronze steps with higher level technique. But winning comps shouldn't be your goal. you will improve faster pushing yourself with harder and harder steps WHILE working on the basics.

[samina]

more steps can be more fun and more ways to work on technique, and can reveal more about the flow of dancing and what it feels like, but it all boils down to how well you can do the basics, regardless of the steps you're doing.

so my 2 cents...mix it up a bit to keep it fresh & interesting, but never forget that the dance always rests on certain principles, and it's those principles that should always be the cornerstone of your focus.

[danceronice]

Like TC said, it's not always about the figures. My pros have said (and with some students demonstrated) that you can win a Silver event dancing closed Bronze figures if the technique is good enough. Conversely Chris can and sometimes has lead me in Silver or higher steps (on purpose or otherwise) and I've followed just fine, but if we competed Silver I'd get my butt kicked because my technique is not quite there. Like fasc says, it's good to add new steps, if you've got the fundamentals, but if you don't have the fundamentals the steps aren't going to be very good.

[etp777]

Now, does the question change if you're talking american smooth? I know in rhythm I'll often see silver dancers stick to bronze steps, just performing them with much better technique than I have. But I would think that wouldn't be an option in waltz/FT. Do you HAVE to change to continuity?

[Chris Stratton]

Now, does the question change if you're talking american smooth? I know in rhythm I'll often see silver dancers stick to bronze steps, just performing them with much better technique than I have. But I would think that wouldn't be an option in waltz/FT. Do you HAVE to change to continuity?

Depends on the judges, if those dancing continuity have found a sense of pacing, and if your bronze is exemplary or just okay.

[Larinda McRaven]

I see lots of people in smooth w/f competing with closed foot positions. It is not necessary at all to do continuity style.

However I will add this. As a teacher I sometimes come across a student who, after, 6 or 7 years, still cannot get some basic fundamentals of balance, and closed foot position, dance position, leading, or even timing.... To doom them to a life of eternal bronze seems cruel... not to mention that learning to dance is not linear it is groovy (thanks laura). Meaning that moving on and learning some silver patterns might actually help them back fill some of the gaps they have in their knowledge and coordination. Tyring different patterns can challenge muscles (and brain) in a way that the old patterns were missing.

Beating a dead horse of 10 patterns for 7 years doesn't seem to be very logical.

[fascination]

agree...if after a fair amout of dedication for 7 years, one hasn't made those corrections, it isn't going to be about what level of steps they are doing...it is an ongoing process...

[Chris Stratton]

It would seem that something needs to change - could be going forward and crashing around the floor ahead of the music in continuity (BTDT) until realization of the nature of the underlying problem dawns, or it could be backing up to just quarter turn basics in american foxtrot and drilling that to gradually bring out a sense of balance and paced progress of body weight with "up" poise rather than "down". Or maybe both.

If the "but it doesn't go anywhere" objection is coming up quickstep might be a good alternative - in some ways it makes the keys skills most accessible, because it has real swings but at a tempo that doesn't require as much foot strength and precision of pacing.

[Piggles]

Interesting stuff posted here; I'm getting into the same discussion with my teacher.

I switched to standard nearly a year ago after 4 years of smooth and feel confident with the bronze patterns and techniques. Not perfect, but competent. My teacher candidly told me earlier this week that he's not certified to teach silver and isn't sure that he can effectively teach me the silver syllabus.

I was hoping to compete pro-am intermediate silver at a competition in February. I've done a few competitions and tend to win my contested heats and place very well in the 3-dances.

I like my teacher and he pushes me hard with all the right things. Do I stay bronze and continue to perfect my existing routines, or do I beg him introduce silver patterns into my routines?

[Chris Stratton]

It sounds like perhaps its time for a new teacher as source of guidance. Not because this guy can't teach you the silver syllabus, but because he doesn't have the perspective of that knowledge (and much more) enriching understanding of what is ultimately important in the basic elements.

Perhaps you can continue dancing with him and getting instruction together from someone else as it does sound like he is a good partner for you. That's actually not uncommon, but can be awkward to sort out financially - this is kind of where the issue of money starts to interfere with dancing, rather than enabling it.

[Spartacus]

I think Larinda made an excellent point.

For me, often it was moving on to a new figure that held me find a pattern in what I was doing and what I was supposed to do that helped me fill in technique on my more basic steps.

To me, it is a matter of sticking with it while you are in that frustrated/confused stage, but if you feel you have become unsure of what exactly you are trying to improve upon it may be time to move on to something new and stay challenged.

[vcolfari]

One doesn't have to dance silver material in a silver competitive event. I can think of at least one local couple that has been winning or placing in silver and gold events with only bronze material. They keep it simple and maintain a nice frame, while many of their competitors are breaking frame to get into wing. On the other hand, silver opens up some good options. For example, silver quickstep figures like V6 and Quick Open Reverse allow you to use the center of the floor, unlike the bronze figures which pretty much keep you hugging the sides of the floor. Silver waltz allows you to use the Progressive Chasse to Right/Outside Change combination and Weave from Promenade, both of which flow better than the bronze Basic Weave, and especially Natural/Reverse turns and Closed Changes.

I think you should almost always be working on fundamentals. But sometimes, it can be worth it to divert attention to new figures. I think it would depend on:
-How much you already have of the fundamentals needed to support the new figure
-How much time/effort you would need to invest in the new figure
-How much the new figure could show you to better advantage

This is such a great post.

[Flyingkamakiri]

This is such a great post.
Agreed! TC always has some really good insight.

[Larinda McRaven]

Piggles, another option would be to simply stay with him... but with srtings. I, often in my past, bothered to tackle challenges in my life learning and professional learning experiences only when I was confronted head on with needing to master them. And an eager student who has faith in their teacher is a wonderful confidence booster and maybe the only thing needed to push them over the edge to get moving in that direction.

So maybe talking with him and explaining your desire to move ahead, acknowledging his position and tell him you are willing to navigate the process together as long as he promises to forge ahead with his side of it full steam. Learning from a teacher who is in an active learning phase can be incredibly rewarding and interesting. When they get passionate about it for themselves they can get very passionate about sharing it with others.

[millitiz]

I have the similar problem. My partner and I decided to also compete in silver, but the competition is like about a month away. So we asked our instructors about whether we should start to learn some silver moves, and they said that judges judge how well you dance, not what steps you dance. Therefore we decided to stick to bronze step. However, it might be another story if one has more time.

[Piggles]

Thanks Chris and Larinda!

The owner of the studio is very active in her business as well as in the competitive world. She's a brilliant teacher and I've taken a couple of focus lessons from her with the full support of my teacher. Though her time-table is busy, I can take silver lessons from her, and hopefully she can train my teacher on what she's teaching me.

My teacher emphasises posture, frame, and topline, and we work together when I feel certain patterns don't feel as comfortable as they should. He's not the most proficient teacher I've had, but he's the best one to take me where I want to go. My previous two teachers, though excellent, were from a franchise that severely restricted competitive participation (especially in the int'l style). My city has a very small dance community, and choices in competitive-calibre teachers are limited. So I'm inclined to stay with my current teacher and grow with him. :)

[Rikiiy]

Is it all fine if I jumped straight into the silver classes (both latin n standard) without doing the bronze?

(I've been picking up and learning the basic bronze stuff during the socials)

And also what is the actual point of completing a medal classes coz I'd rather spend that $30ish on three more classes than get graded;)

[Chris Stratton]

Is it all fine if I jumped straight into the silver classes (both latin n standard) without doing the bronze?

(I've been picking up and learning the basic bronze stuff during the socials)

Everyone who eventually gets anywhere returns to review the basic concepts many times throughout their career, however each time they do so with a bit greater understanding of the problems and the whole point of it all. You wouldn't be the first or the last person to get a bit of a disorganized start, but just be sure not to wall yourself off from opportunity, either for learning or for meeting potential partners.

[dancelvr]

And an eager student who has faith in their teacher is a wonderful confidence booster and maybe the only thing needed to push them over the edge to get moving in that direction.

Learning from a teacher who is in an active learning phase can be incredibly rewarding and interesting.

I'm sort of in that situation right now, and it's wonderful. I have complete faith in my pro, and I try to make sure he always knows that. To hear him say that he enjoyed our lesson in Slow Fox was a revelation from this smooth/rhythm guy. What a day that was. :-)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Thanks, vcolfari and Flyingkamakiri!

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Hi tangoking. I don't know if you've changed your routines since those videos you posted six months ago. In the videos, you were sticking to natural/reverse turns, closed changes, spin turns, and whisks/chassés.

The natural/reverse turns and closed changes sequence is a fantastic exercise on the practice floor. But I think it provides a low return on investment on the comp floor. I've spent a _lot_ of time working on lowering with my feet closed (partly a personal obsession :cool:). However I still wouldn't feel comfortable dancing that sequence in a bronze event. I'd be lowering with feet closed, trying to find just the right time to begin moving forward and feeling as if I'm balancing on a razor's edge. Whereas a beginner can dance the progressive chassé to right/outside change combination (many people dance it in bronze even though it isn't legal) and with less effort than I, look smoother and travel farther.

I also think whisks can be risky. I find them really uncomfortable, and promenade position alone is tricky enough! Side note: for some reason back whisks and outside changes feel like more comfortable entries to promenade...hmmm...

So if you have maintained the same routines, I think you might benefit from switching to something like:
-natural spin turn, 4-6 reverse, 1-3 reverse, basic weave, repeat... (bronze)
-natural spin turn, 4-6 reverse, progressive chassé to right, outside change, repeat... (silver)
Both sequences minimize the lowering with feet closed.

Given the skill level displayed in those videos, I don't think it would take much additional time/effort. :)

[Rikiiy]

Everyone who eventually gets anywhere returns to review the basic concepts many times throughout their career, however each time they do so with a bit greater understanding of the problems and the whole point of it all. You wouldn't be the first or the last person to get a bit of a disorganized start, but just be sure not to wall yourself off from opportunity, either for learning or for meeting potential partners.


alright cheers mate, thanks for the heads up. I'll be trying the bronze barre tomorrow:) -

[fascination]

Piggles, another option would be to simply stay with him... but with srtings. I, often in my past, bothered to tackle challenges in my life learning and professional learning experiences only when I was confronted head on with needing to master them. And an eager student who has faith in their teacher is a wonderful confidence booster and maybe the only thing needed to push them over the edge to get moving in that direction.

So maybe talking with him and explaining your desire to move ahead, acknowledging his position and tell him you are willing to navigate the process together as long as he promises to forge ahead with his side of it full steam. Learning from a teacher who is in an active learning phase can be incredibly rewarding and interesting. When they get passionate about it for themselves they can get very passionate about sharing it with others.
I chose this route for a long time...and I believe that it worked very well for a good long time...I think it fair to say that my goals and motivation were the impetus for a great deal of progress in my former pro...and to me it was worth it to dance with someone with whom I had a good rapport

[Piggles]

Yeah, my first teacher was excellent but seemed to find having a competitive student a bit of a hassle relative to his social ones. Especially when it came to remembering HIS choreography. Not such a problem with lead-follow routines, but you can't start in open/shadow position on the wrong foot. Well....you can....but....

In any case, it taught me the value of having a teacher who truly enjoys teaching me.

[waltzguy]

One doesn't have to dance silver material in a silver competitive event. I can think of at least one local couple that has been winning or placing in silver and gold events with only bronze material. They keep it simple and maintain a nice frame, while many of their competitors are breaking frame ...

I personally agree with this wholeheartedly!