Question about this particular situation in WCS

[Spitfire]

In WCS it is part of and commonplace for the follower to move and play on her own rather than to always follow along with a lead and generally I don't have a problem with this, but I've danced with some followers who seem to do so throughout the entire dance and I find it hard to lead much of anything. It can all look very nice so I'm not saying that WCS followers shouldn't be doing any of this, but rather what can I do to best adapt to this situation? Perhaps this is something covered in various workshops and classes, but unfortunately I live in a community where these are not available since there is no dancing here.

[Dancelf]

I've danced with some followers who seem to do so throughout the entire dance and I find it hard to lead much of anything. It can all look very nice so I'm not saying that WCS followers shouldn't be doing any of this, but rather what can I do to best adapt to this situation?

What outcome do you want?

[Flat Shoes]

That is a very good question from Dancelf. So good that I'll wait a while before continuing with my intended response. :)

[jennyisdancing]

What outcome do you want?

Excellent question and I look forward to Spitfire's response but - I got the impression that these followers are overdoing the "play"?

I find it hard to lead much of anything.

So, does that mean, if you lead a pass, a whip, a turn, a sugar push, etc. etc., the followers actually don't do the move you led? Are they literally hijacking or ignoring every lead that you provide? Or are they doing the move, but with variations in footwork, timing and styling?

[Spitfire]

So, does that mean, if you lead a pass, a whip, a turn, a sugar push, etc. etc., the followers actually don't do the move you led? Are they literally hijacking or ignoring every lead that you provide?

Yes, this is what I mean, they will want to do something quite different and do so from start to finish. I'll initially lead something like say a whip and they will want to completely change it up on me. I'm not talking about something like in a side pass where they will do a different type of footwork, but still complete the move, but something much different from whatever I want to lead. Now, I should say that this doesn't happen frequently, but every so often there's been those who will do just this. Now, is this what is actually meant by hijacking?

[MultiFaceted Dancer]

As far as I understand it,The Lady can choose to put in her own styling or design to her footwork to the step as long as she finishes in the timing and position intended by the Gentleman.

[jennyisdancing]

As far as I understand it,The Lady can choose to put in her own styling or design to her footwork to the step as long as she finishes in the timing and position intended by the Gentleman.

That's how I was taught, as well. That said, occasional hijacks can be okay, if the leader seems amenable. But only occasional, not all the time. If the follower is going to just plain ignore the leader, why is she even dancing with a partner at all? :confused:

[MultiFaceted Dancer]

I wasn't taught that ladies stylizing her dancing making WC sexier would be considered hyjacking. To me hyjacking would mean completely ignoring the lead meaning timing and or direction since thats the leaders job-following doesn't mean making her step basic and or boring it means individualizing her step making it her own without jeapordizing timing and direction-She would still be folowing it would just show the diference between a basic new beginner dancer and an advanced dancer. I have been explained that once we learn the rules we could bend them later on.

[jennyisdancing]

I wasn't taught that ladies stylizing her dancing making WC sexier would be considered hyjacking. To me hyjacking would mean completely ignoring the lead meaning timing and or direction since thats the leaders job-following doesn't mean making her step basic and or boring it means individualizing her step making it her own without jeapordizing timing and direction-She would still be folowing it would just show the diference between a basic new beginner dancer and an advanced dancer. I have been explained that once we learn the rules we could bend them later on.

Hopefully no misunderstanding here - that's exactly what I am saying, too. Styling is not hijacking. Taking a move and turning it into a different move is hijacking - and that, too, is okay on a few occasions, just not all the time, and should only be done by followers who know what they're doing, and only with leaders who are comfortable with it.

[Zhena]

Agreeing with MultiFaceted Dancer and jennyisdancing, I have been taught that a follower can hijack only when she is confident the leader is comfortable with it ... and only when he is not actively leading something. This goes along with the concept of "active" vs. "passive" movements. For example, the start of a sugar push is "active" because the leader is directing the direction and speed of the follower's movement. Therefore the follower may NOT hijack at that point.

[Flat Shoes]

Hopefully no misunderstanding here - that's exactly what I am saying, too. Styling is not hijacking. Taking a move and turning it into a different move is hijacking - and that, too, is okay on a few occasions, just not all the time, and should only be done by followers who know what they're doing, and only with leaders who are comfortable with it.

I completely agree. One of the great things with swing dances (and most other partner dances) is the connection that comes from good leading and following. It can give such a wonderful feel.

Whenever a follower hijacks, she breaks that connection. That's ok and can be fun, but only when it happens now and then. If it happens all the time, the follower is no longer dancing with her partner but only using him to show off her self.

If your lead is good (i.e relaxed, clear and not forceful) there should be plenty of opportunity for a follower to improvise and add styling without hijacking.

One way to adapt is to lead simple and basic patterns and give the follower room to play. Or you may play along, using her improvisations for inspiration. If you don't feel she is hijacking too much, but like the way she's dancing and playing, show it. Smile, go "wow", cheer or whatever fits your way of communicating "you look great".

If you feel she is not dancing with you, but hijacking and taking the fun out of the dance, don't encourage. I would personally handle this by suffering through the rest of the song, say bye and never ask her for another dance. There are too many partners out there that are fun to dance with to waste time on those who are not interested in dancing with me.

[utahswestcoastswing]

If you feel she is not dancing with you, but hijacking and taking the fun out of the dance, don't encourage. I would personally handle this by suffering through the rest of the song, say bye and never ask her for another dance. There are too many partners out there that are fun to dance with to waste time on those who are not interested in dancing with me.

I agree with this. I had an instance at a WCS convention where I had a follow who was doing her own thing. I tried leading the simplest of patterns and was not able to get any partnership whatsoever. I just bared with the dance, thanked her for the time, and moved on.

I think building a partnership in WCS is crucial to having a good dance. There are opportunities to accentuate the dance, both for leaders and followers, but abuse of this makes the dance very one-sided and not very fun.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I completely agree. One of the great things with swing dances (and most other partner dances) is the connection that comes from good leading and following. It can give such a wonderful feel.

Whenever a follower hijacks, she breaks that connection. That's ok and can be fun, but only when it happens now and then. If it happens all the time, the follower is no longer dancing with her partner but only using him to show off her self.
Maybe I have a different definition of hijack, but I think the connection remains even during hijacking. It's just been reversed. :)

[MultiFaceted Dancer]

Hopefully no misunderstanding here - that's exactly what I am saying, too. Styling is not hijacking. Taking a move and turning it into a different move is hijacking - and that, too, is okay on a few occasions, just not all the time, and should only be done by followers who know what they're doing, and only with leaders who are comfortable with it.
I was pretty sure we were on the same page just wanted to clarify
my answer Didn't mean it to sound harsh

[MultiFaceted Dancer]

Maybe I have a different definition of hijack, but I think the connection remains even during hijacking. It's just been reversed. :)
I also agree with this way of thinking. The connection exists but the outcome of the way the particular steps looks or feels is whats different not timing but outcome. My example besides footwork is that instead of one turn than an anchor step and then moving forward on a walk, I can do a triple turn keeping the timimg and then walk forward. That could in essense be considered hyjacking but after the guy knows i can do it then he will usually lead it that way knowing that I like to turn and or spin multiple times and capable of doing so on balance and on time. Same timimg, same connection, different outcome or look.

[Flat Shoes]

Maybe I have a different definition of hijack, but I think the connection remains even during hijacking. It's just been reversed. :)

Hijacking can be used intentionally as a variation and playing with your partner. Or it can be done unintentionally by someone not following and just doing her own stuff.

If the follower for example is taking over the leaders role for a short time, connection of course needs to be maintained. If the follower is just not following, but for example move in a different direction, or stopping when not supposed to, it will in general break the connection as a result.

[Silveralsa]

I think a follower should have the freedom to play in stylizing the moves led by the leader. While playing around with a surprise or two is ok (depending relationship between dance couple), it should not be done more than that. I'll confess I've been guilty of that before and didn't realize what I was doing until AFTER the dance was over. I rarely find a guy that really lets me play and give me the time/room to do so in my styling. One of my favorite leads lets me play to my hearts content and plays right back off of me. I feel like we're actually having a "flirting conversation" through the dance itself, and I love it. Unfortunately, just this last week I realized I'd gotten carried away in my excitement and hijacked more than really played.

So, first, it might be possibly a compliment that the follower feels so comfortable being able to creatively express herself while dancing with you. So, if it's an occassional thing that happens (not regularly), don't come down on her. However, if it's a pattern and you have friendship enough, I'd say something in a kind non-judgment/critical way :)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Hijacking can be used intentionally as a variation and playing with your partner. Or it can be done unintentionally by someone not following and just doing her own stuff.

If the follower for example is taking over the leaders role for a short time, connection of course needs to be maintained. If the follower is just not following, but for example move in a different direction, or stopping when not supposed to, it will in general break the connection as a result.
Gotcha. I think we're in agreement. :)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I think a follower should have the freedom to play in stylizing the moves led by the leader. While playing around with a surprise or two is ok (depending relationship between dance couple), it should not be done more than that. I'll confess I've been guilty of that before and didn't realize what I was doing until AFTER the dance was over. I rarely find a guy that really lets me play and give me the time/room to do so in my styling. One of my favorite leads lets me play to my hearts content and plays right back off of me. I feel like we're actually having a "flirting conversation" through the dance itself, and I love it. Unfortunately, just this last week I realized I'd gotten carried away in my excitement and hijacked more than really played.
Wanna dance? ;) I'd love to share the control 50/50 (maybe even more) with a "follower".

[Silveralsa]

Wanna dance? ;) I'd love to share the control 50/50 (maybe even more) with a "follower".

LOL... thanks, I think... I wouldn't call it control, for I still want the guy to lead, I just want to be able to actual respond like a conversation with my styling. Often the guy can lead so many moves in such a way that you can't even style what you're doing, but just follow the move. I want to express my heart, not be some broom being used to execute a series of moves... ok, so this is a big point for me... LOL

[Terpsichorean Clod]

LOL... thanks, I think... I wouldn't call it control, for I still want the guy to lead, I just want to be able to actual respond like a conversation with my styling. Often the guy can lead so many moves in such a way that you can't even style what you're doing, but just follow the move. I want to express my heart, not be some broom being used to execute a series of moves... ok, so this is a big point for me... LOL
I guess we're talking about slightly different things. Then I don't wanna dance with you. :razz:

I agree about the conversation, but I meant more like someone who actually periodically assumes the lead (she may still be doing a follower's movements). :)

[Silveralsa]

I guess we're talking about slightly different things. Then I don't wanna dance with you. :razz:

I agree about the conversation, but I meant more like someone who actually periodically assumes the lead (she may still be doing a follower's movements). :)

Lol, gotcha.. I do that in a great once in a while, like a move that's like a backwards whip with the guy going clockwise around the follow...

[jennyisdancing]

LOL... thanks, I think... I wouldn't call it control, for I still want the guy to lead, I just want to be able to actual respond like a conversation with my styling. Often the guy can lead so many moves in such a way that you can't even style what you're doing, but just follow the move. I want to express my heart, not be some broom being used to execute a series of moves... ok, so this is a big point for me... LOL

I agree with you on this one...if the guy doesn't like me hijacking, fine, but yeah, with some leaders I just feel like a robot where I get no space to express myself at all, not even with styling and interpretation. A constant series of fast, highly technical moves doesn't leave much room. Maybe a really, really advanced follower (i.e. a pro) could style those moves but I'm not a pro.

[Silveralsa]

...with some leaders I just feel like a robot where I get no space to express myself at all, not even with styling and interpretation. A constant series of fast, highly technical moves doesn't leave much room. Maybe a really, really advanced follower (i.e. a pro) could style those moves but I'm not a pro.

Well said, and ditto! I've been saying that a lot...

[Ithink]

I agree; I really dislike dancing with guys like that because to me the dance is solely about them, not at all about me, their partner. I call them pattern-dancers where they don't really dance but just practice how many patterns they can fit into a song.

[jennyisdancing]

I agree; I really dislike dancing with guys like that because to me the dance is solely about them, not at all about me, their partner. I call them pattern-dancers where they don't really dance but just practice how many patterns they can fit into a song.

In some cases, not just patterns but also movements and timing - the really advanced leaders can lead the follower's footwork and rhythm, in places where the less advanced leader would not do so.

[Silveralsa]

In some cases, not just patterns but also movements and timing - the really advanced leaders can lead the follower's footwork and rhythm, in places where the less advanced leader would not do so.

I can understand if they're beginners and can only do patterns. However, when you hit Intermediate, you need to be able to definitely interact with your partner. If anyone wants to be all about them, go dance by yourself, NOT do a partner dance...

[Ithink]

In some cases, not just patterns but also movements and timing - the really advanced leaders can lead the follower's footwork and rhythm, in places where the less advanced leader would not do so.

Right. Mostly, I was actually talking more about advanced dancers anyway. I think beginners aren't likely to be able to control what *kind* of dance they dance but the advanced ones sure can and CHOOSE to make it all about them and their patterns/rhythm etc. That's what I dislike.

[jennyisdancing]

Right. Mostly, I was actually talking more about advanced dancers anyway. I think beginners aren't likely to be able to control what *kind* of dance they dance but the advanced ones sure can and CHOOSE to make it all about them and their patterns/rhythm etc. That's what I dislike.

Yeah...and with those kinds of leaders, that's when the advanced followers decide to hijack...it's the only way for them to "get a word in edgewise" in the dance conversation. :p

[Silveralsa]

Yeah...and with those kinds of leaders, that's when the advanced followers decide to hijack...it's the only way for them to "get a word in edgewise" in the dance conversation. :p

That could be a really hilarious comedy sketch at the US open ;)

[Albanaich]

Well Jenny, I have to say 'Hijacking' is something I so want from a follower - and locally, its quite rare, probablly because of the small pool of WCS dancers.

When someone starts hijacking it immediately 'lifts my game' to about two levels above what I normally do - its so much fun going into something not knowing what is going to come out.

Ever fancy a visit to Scotland Jenny?

[Silveralsa]

Well Jenny, I have to say 'Hijacking' is something I so want from a follower - and locally, its quite rare, probablly because of the small pool of WCS dancers.

When someone starts hijacking it immediately 'lifts my game' to about two levels above what I normally do - its so much fun going into something not knowing what is going to come out.

Ever fancy a visit to Scotland Jenny?

Feel free to visit to Southern California and the followers you want to be hijacked. I'm sure many would be happy to oblige :bouncy:

[jennyisdancing]

Well Jenny, I have to say 'Hijacking' is something I so want from a follower - and locally, its quite rare, probablly because of the small pool of WCS dancers.

When someone starts hijacking it immediately 'lifts my game' to about two levels above what I normally do - its so much fun going into something not knowing what is going to come out.

Ever fancy a visit to Scotland Jenny?

I would love to go on a worldwide social dance tour...you know, check out what the dance scene is like in different countries. What a blast that would be! Too bad my wallet is empty. :(

[Silveralsa]

I would love to go on a worldwide social dance tour...you know, check out what the dance scene is like in different countries. What a blast that would be! Too bad my wallet is empty. :(

I feel your pain... they say the US economy is turning around, but I got hit with two paycuts and looking for a 2nd job to make ends meet with no future raises. Family member had also lost their job. It's hard times for us all. I think swing dancing actually helps me to stay upbeat since it's a lot cheaper (w/out lessons) activity that's a lot of fun around great people. Plus, I don't need a gym membership this way ;)

[kmaitland]

That's how I was taught, as well. That said, occasional hijacks can be okay, if the leader seems amenable. But only occasional, not all the time. If the follower is going to just plain ignore the leader, why is she even dancing with a partner at all? :confused:

Frankly, I call this back leading not hijacking. But as someone has both back lead and hijacked - when I was both younger and more of a Diva - I would posit other theories. The only time I would pull a backlead/hijack that was:



when the lead was not defined enough ("did he want 2 spins or 3?")
when the lead could not count (the dilemma of following the leader or following the beat of the music)
when the lead missed all the musical cues and did no shines of his own ("nothing in front of me to watch" syndrome)
I was just being damned rude and ignoring the leader

But there are 2 more reasons to consider


the follower doesn't know that many steps and is covering for her lack of knowledge by blinding her leader with her shines
another issues. I'm asthmatic - if I need to get air I will do a chest pop. Given my bust-line, that usually shocks the leader into stopping for 4 -8 beats. I also have repeatitive strain in my wrists - if my leader can't lead a spin properly I will hijack for self preservation.

Just some things to consider.

~Kristine
Play the funky music and dance

[tsb]

In WCS it is part of and commonplace for the follower to move and play on her own rather than to always follow along with a lead and generally I don't have a problem with this, but I've danced with some followers who seem to do so throughout the entire dance and I find it hard to lead much of anything. It can all look very nice so I'm not saying that WCS followers shouldn't be doing any of this, but rather what can I do to best adapt to this situation? Perhaps this is something covered in various workshops and classes, but unfortunately I live in a community where these are not available since there is no dancing here.

hey tom: did you see felix & priscilla when you went down to phoenix?

IMO part of the challenge in leading WCS well is dancing as much *with* as *to* the music. it's not just a matter of locating the downbeat and matching the tempo, it also includes beginning and ending figures with the musical phrases, anticipating breaks, choosing styling influenced by the music being played at that moment, etc. and it's a lot easier when you are dancing with a partner whose ear/timing/sense of lyricism are comparable to your own, as she more is more likely to anticipate accurately where you will offer opportunities to show initiative in styling (play), and anticipating when you lengthen figures by adding extra beats to match the phrasing in the music, etc.

it's my take that appropriate hijacking occurs when a follow feels that she has a more aesthetically pleasing alternative interpretation/choice of figure/styling to what she thinks is being led in relation to the music being played.

to illustrate this, i invite you to check out a jack & jill competition on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J11uP9OmoI

you will see examples of side passes that were not 6 beats in length, but instead were extended to fit the phrasing on the music, such as the side pass at the 1:00 mark. note how tatiana's choice of styling reflected the actual music being played in each instance - the head snap in synchronization of the cymbal crash highlighting the break, etc. their sense of the music is pretty well synchronized.

but there is a IMO a perfect example of a great hijack at about 1:31. parker released tatiana in a free spin and looked to reconnect at a musical break within a phrase (not bad lyricism at all) - and tatiana hijacked by postponing the reconnect to the next (and final) break of the phrase - and it made musical sense! it's been five years, and i still laugh whenever i watch it.

to summarize, there will be some follows who will just hijack for the sake of hijacking. for those whose sense of musicality differs significantly from mine, i tend to avoid them. but in some cases it may well be that a perceived act of hijacking is a result of a follow hearing/interpreting/anticipating the music differently and *perhaps* more musically. in those cases, it may help you to note they do, especially if they're consistent in how/when they hijack from you and adapt to that - your being able to anticipate how a follow might typically "hear" the music will contribute significantly to your own sense of lyricism - in a way followers will appreciate.

i hope this helps.

[Spitfire]

I saw them in May. That was the last time I was in Phoenix for dancing.

[bclure]

Yes, one of the beauties of WCS is the ability of the dancers to shine as individuals, but NOT at the expense of the partnership. I am all for follows pushing the limits of our partnership and don't consider it hijacking. It feels wonderful to share that space.

However I do have to say that one of my pet peeves are followers the embellish and syncopate EVERY step. Please take some of that energy and redirect it towards our partnering. :)

[MrPlow]

This is from the best piece I've ever read on how back leading and hijacking coexist with lead and follow.

=====

Is there a word to describe partners effortlessly passing the lead back and forth? In music, I believe it's called jamming. Watching bluesmen jam, watching improvisational actors work and having spent 60 hours in improvisational acting training, I've found that jamming works when the players respect each other's solos, when the players are in tune to the cues that say 'I'm finishing up' or 'I'm starting a solo'.

In improv, there are several ways to interrupt the flow, all bad. All of them stop the scene cold. As most actor's egos need their own zip code, every improv class I've been in has featured the instructor explaining to some interrupter that this is a team effort, it's not about you. When you have the lead, take it in a direction that makes it work for everybody. When you don't have the lead, follow along, doing your best to make it work. Interrupting the flow is just selfish, egotistical, amateurish or an indication that you just don't get the basic nature of improv.

Yep, Improv acting is not partner dance, but there are lessons to be learned. There is nothing better in dance than jamming, IMHO, when each partner's creativity and passion is sparked by the other's solos. But this only works when the partners can communicate well enough to pass the lead back and forth.

What happens all to often is the follower decides to express herself and she launches into it with no apparent regard to what I'm doing. I have learned how to communicate passing the lead to her. I don't do it if i'm in the middle of a solo, if I'm setting something up for the bridge that starts in 4 bars, if I'm trying to prevent the bozo next to my partner from running into her, if I'm still assessing how well she can dance or follow, etc. Take the lead when it's passed to you and we'll have grand fun. Ask for the lead when I'm just noodling nothing in particular and you'll get it with my full attention, more grand fun. Take the lead, smoothly and gently, and I'll surrender if I'm not in the middle of something best not interrupted, more grand fun. However if she demands the lead, takes it jarringly or abruptly, interrupts me at a bad time, or refuse to follow, well, at best that's just bad dance.

In the first post in this thread I said: "The ones who dislike dancing with me are those who fail when attempting to impose their will on me." I wasn't talking about jamming, which is a way to work together. I was describing selfishly demanding the lead or refusing to lead, which is all about her and not about us.

[Larinda McRaven]

nice

[Ray Sison]

Thanks for this way of looking at it! :cheers:

This is from the best piece I've ever read on how back leading and hijacking coexist with lead and follow.

=====

Is there a word to describe partners effortlessly passing the lead back and forth? In music, I believe it's called jamming. Watching bluesmen jam, watching improvisational actors work and having spent 60 hours in improvisational acting training, I've found that jamming works when the players respect each other's solos, when the players are in tune to the cues that say 'I'm finishing up' or 'I'm starting a solo'.

In improv, there are several ways to interrupt the flow, all bad. All of them stop the scene cold. As most actor's egos need their own zip code, every improv class I've been in has featured the instructor explaining to some interrupter that this is a team effort, it's not about you. When you have the lead, take it in a direction that makes it work for everybody. When you don't have the lead, follow along, doing your best to make it work. Interrupting the flow is just selfish, egotistical, amateurish or an indication that you just don't get the basic nature of improv.

Yep, Improv acting is not partner dance, but there are lessons to be learned. There is nothing better in dance than jamming, IMHO, when each partner's creativity and passion is sparked by the other's solos. But this only works when the partners can communicate well enough to pass the lead back and forth.

What happens all to often is the follower decides to express herself and she launches into it with no apparent regard to what I'm doing. I have learned how to communicate passing the lead to her. I don't do it if i'm in the middle of a solo, if I'm setting something up for the bridge that starts in 4 bars, if I'm trying to prevent the bozo next to my partner from running into her, if I'm still assessing how well she can dance or follow, etc. Take the lead when it's passed to you and we'll have grand fun. Ask for the lead when I'm just noodling nothing in particular and you'll get it with my full attention, more grand fun. Take the lead, smoothly and gently, and I'll surrender if I'm not in the middle of something best not interrupted, more grand fun. However if she demands the lead, takes it jarringly or abruptly, interrupts me at a bad time, or refuse to follow, well, at best that's just bad dance.

In the first post in this thread I said: "The ones who dislike dancing with me are those who fail when attempting to impose their will on me." I wasn't talking about jamming, which is a way to work together. I was describing selfishly demanding the lead or refusing to lead, which is all about her and not about us.