Something I have always wondered about dancesport.........

[Angelo]

If men can dance both Latin and Standard (or Rythm and Smooth) in closed toe shoes, why do the ladies typically wear open toed shoes for latin or rythm? Is it just a style issue or is there some practical reason for it?

[cl5814]

I have a male group class instructor that changes shoes based on whether it is latin or standard we do......... he uses practice shoes for both but the latin shoe has a latin look and the standard shoes a standard look. Maybe it is just habit or he is very particular (don't know him that well ). Maybe just one of those things.... :P

[pygmalion]

Technically speaking, I guess women could wear closed toed shoes for both -- there probably is a style issue involved.

But the reason women and men have different types of shoes for standard and Latin is that the shoes are actually built differently. The standard shoes have a full steel shank inside, which is needed for support of the foot in proper footwork for smooth/standard. Latin/rhythm shoes often have a half shank which allows the foot more flexiblity, for pointing the toes and such. It's not impossible to do Latin in standard shoes. It just wouldn't allow nearly as much flexibility of the foot.

I'm not sure why the fashion is for women to wear open toed shoes for Latin. Maybe it's just a style thing? Does anybody know?

btw. Welcome to the forums, Angelo. :D

[Angelo]

Technically speaking, I guess women could wear closed toed shoes for both -- there probably is a style issue involved.

But the reason women and men have different types of shoes for standard and Latin is that the shoes are actually built differently. The standard shoes have a full steel shank inside, which is needed for support of the foot in proper footwork for smooth/standard. Latin/rhythm shoes often have a half shank which allows the foot more flexiblity, for pointing the toes and such. It's not impossible to do Latin in standard shoes. It just wouldn't allow nearly as much flexibility of the foot.

I'm not sure why the fashion is for women to wear open toed shoes for Latin. Maybe it's just a style thing? Does anybody know?

btw. Welcome to the forums, Angelo. :D


Those are interesting facts about the construction of latin and standard shoes. Does this apply to both men's and women's shoes?

P.S. Thanks for the welcome

[tasche]

In latin some ladies such as myself like the contact with the floor that open toed shoes provide such as tracking my big toe through on rhumba walks. Generally open toes sandals hae less fabric covering the forepart of the foot and therefore enabling the foot to flex more as there is less resistance from the shoe

[Warren J. Dew]

Men's Latin shoes, like ladies' Latin shoes, have the heel placed a little more forward, tending to throw the weight onto the ball of the foot where it usually should be in Latin.

Ladies' Standard shoes have closed toes because, with proper technique, the point or even top of the toe slides against the floor at high speed. An unprotected toenail could easily catch splinters and such.

[Porfirio Landeros]

Because of the full foot-rolling action in standard/smooth, I have heard ladies that prefer closed shoes (closed not on just the toe, but sides, too) so that they get the additional support around the heel. Otherwise, the heel may rock side-to-side as a sandal gets broken in.

[Chris Stratton]

The main issues seem to be:

Latin wants a heel which induces a forward weight position along with flexibility for pointing

Standard requires design for variable weight placement - if more than a trivial heel is present it will be set neutrally and supported by a stiff shank that prevents it from folding into the arch when weight is on the back edge of the heel. A covered toe is required for protection in backwards extension.

So we have four basic types:

Men's standard: closed toe, low heel so often flexible

Women's standard: closed toe, high heel requires a stiff shank for heel leads

Men's latin: closed, moderate heel for poise, usually flexible as few heel leads (also available fairly stiff for guys who wouldn't utilize flexibility)

Women's latin: open, very high heel for poise, very flexible for pointing, no heel leads

and an extra one which I would guess is:

Womens "smooth" - stiff shank for heel leads, open sides so the toe can still point some

Also note that a women's practice/coaching shoe has arch stiffness like a standard or smooth shoe, making it different from most similar-looking flexible-arch men's latin shoes.

Now for the quiz question: a split-sole patent leather man's standard shoe has a flexible arch and rigid toe, wheras an open sided women's smooth shoe has a rigid arch and flexible toe. If paired up, can they support equivelent actions?

[Angelo]

Now for the quiz question: a split-sole patent leather man's standard shoe has a flexible arch and rigid toe, wheras an open sided women's smooth shoe has a rigid arch and flexible toe. If paired up, can they support equivelent actions?


I don't know what the answer is but I have a pair of split sole patent leather shoes that I dance both Latin and Standard in just because I never knew any better.

[Angelo]

In latin some ladies such as myself like the contact with the floor that open toed shoes provide such as tracking my big toe through on rhumba walks. Generally open toes sandals hae less fabric covering the forepart of the foot and therefore enabling the foot to flex more as there is less resistance from the shoe

I wonder why men do not like the same sort of toe-to-floor contact? Perhaps they would if they were allowed to use open toed shoes?

[dancin_feet]

I only have open toed shoes (some more open than others). I didn't realise there was such a difference in the way the shoe was constructed. I always thought that latin shoes showed more of the foot for the same reason latin costumes showed more skin! :shock:

Oh well, you live and you learn. :D Since most of my dancing is social based, I really couldn't be bothered putting on appropriate shoes for the dance I am doing. It would be a case of missing out on half the song because you had to change your shoes - and that's just silly. One pair does it all for me!

I can understand it though if you are competing. :wink:

[Chris Stratton]

The problem though is that wearing the wrong high-heel shoes really inhibits ever learning the proper technique. Using the heels on standard shoes is hard enough that some people never learn it - doing so in latin shoes would be nearly impossible for someone who hadn't at least practiced it in proper shoes. Likewise, stiff standard shoes would inhibit the fully devleoped latin actions, but at least that is likley to be more of a personal and visual issue than something that can be felt by your partner as a physical limitation on what he can do.

[Angelo]

The problem though is that wearing the wrong high-heel shoes really inhibits ever learning the proper technique.

I'm not completely sold on this argument. I doubt if the difference between a men's standard heel and a men's latin heel is more than half of an inch. Many styles of ladies standard shoes come in either a 2.5 or 2 inch heel. Many styles of ladies latin shoes can have a 2.5 or 3 inch heel. If having a half inch difference on the heel made such a big effect on learning the proper technique, I would think that the dance shoes would have evolved to have standard shoe heights that are specific for each style for both men and women.

[tasche]

I think Chris may be referring to wearing 2" heels for everything or the practice shoes that are similar to mens latin. I started wearing those for awhile with 2" heels and started noticing a different loss of muscle tone and technique in my latin in such a short time

[pygmalion]

Yes. A lot of women wear men's Latin shoes, in smaller sizes, of course, instead of women's practice shoes, which are built more like standard shoes.

And doing Latin in standard court shoes is quite difficult. Possible, but difficult. Creating the proper foot action for Latin is much more difficult in a stiff shoe, such as I might buy for standard.

[Chris Stratton]

The problem though is that wearing the wrong high-heel shoes really inhibits ever learning the proper technique.

I'm not completely sold on this argument. I doubt if the difference between a men's standard heel and a men's latin heel is more than half of an inch. Many styles of ladies standard shoes come in either a 2.5 or 2 inch heel. Many styles of ladies latin shoes can have a 2.5 or 3 inch heel. If having a half inch difference on the heel made such a big effect on learning the proper technique, I would think that the dance shoes would have evolved to have standard shoe heights that are specific for each style for both men and women.

It's not the height of the heel that is the primary problem, but rather its placement and the sturdiness of the shoe where the heel attaches. Latin heels tend to be placed at a more acute angle, which combined with a more flexible arch gives them the tendancy to fold in and/or wobble when the dancer tries to balance his or her weight on the rear edge of the heel. This is not just a problem for ladies - men wearing latin shoes of the common soft shank design have problems doing standard footwork too.
(Though increased heel height also reduces the degree of foot articulation that someone can manage)

[Angelo]

It's not the height of the heel that is the primary problem, but rather its placement and the sturdiness of the shoe where the heel attaches. Latin heels tend to be placed at a more acute angle, which combined with a more flexible arch gives them the tendancy to fold in and/or wobble when the dancer tries to balance his or her weight on the rear edge of the heel. This is not just a problem for ladies - men wearing latin shoes of the common soft shank design have problems doing standard footwork too.
(Though increased heel height also reduces the degree of foot articulation that someone can manage)


Well why didn't you say that in the first place :? I 've never actually tried to dance in Latin shoes, but I've never noticed a problem dancing Latin in Standard shoes and none of my coaches ever pointed out that it might be a problem. Then again, maybe I'm not yet at the level where that might be a considered a problem of high priority

[spatten]

I can think of at least one American Champion Latin dancer who danced in flats for most of his career. Apparently, he had difficulty with his back and the high-heeled Latin shoes exacerbated the problem.

Funy part was that some of his collegeues apparently complained that he didn't have to work as hard dancing in flats.

[Victoria]

I've danced part of a latin competition in Ballroom shoes!.
The heel broke off of one of the latin shoes during the 1st dance - i didn't have a spare pair - so on went the ballroom shoes.

A very strange experience, but better than dancing ballroom in latin shoes - that kills my toes.

[pygmalion]

I know a ton of social dancing ladies who only wear Latin shoes -- they're prettier. :shock: :lol:

Just goes to show that you can get used to anything. You probably don't notice, really, until you get both Latin and standard shoes, and use them with the proper footwork for each dance style. Once you got used to using the "right" shoes, if you tried to use the "wrong" ones, I'm sure you'd feel the difference.

Interesting comment about the guy dancing in flats, rather than Latin shoes. Gotta ponder that one a while. Isn't it possible to make men's Latin shoes, only with a low or flat heel? Harder or easier strikes me as one of those "grass is always greener" things.

That reminds me a story one of my former teachers used to tell. He and several female teachers were in the studio, learning some technique or the other in standard. The female teachers complained that men have it much easier because their shoes are flat, while the follow part is more difficult, because of high heels. So my former teacher went to the studio's consignment rack, picked up a pair of largish women's shoes that happened to be on sale, and did the follow's part, in 3 inch heels. :shock: I guess that was the end of that conversation. :lol: