Learning steps - group or private?

[dancin_feet]

I have an issue I would like to get other's opinions on. Where do you prefer to learn the actual steps to a figure? In a group lesson or in a private lesson.

I am currently at Senior Bronze level at my studio, but there are no groups for this level due to the lack of the number of students at that level. :( Recently we had exams and a few of us moved up to this level, but the groups so far have not caught up. I'm finding myself taking groups in steps that I already know and have been examined on. While it is a good thing to keep in touch with older steps, I can only afford one group a week at the moment and want to make the most of it.

I am looking at the moment as to whether it is worth travelling to the second studio (about 30 minutes drive) if they have the group available while they sort out a new group programme at my studio. I have no problem learning the steps in my private lesson, but to cement it in my mind, groups have always been helpful to me.

What does everyone else think about this?

[Sagitta]

Whatever works best for you, the group lesson at the other studio, or the privates. If you feel that you are not making the progress you want to because of the class levels at your present studio, not much else you can do.

[Chris Stratton]

"senior bronze" sets off my warning bells

In general, any system which subdivides "bronze" into more than two levels is more about selling you an enjoyable way to spend lesiure time than it is about providing monetarily efficient training. There just aren't that many unique bronze-level concepts to learn - so systems which define a large number of figures include relatively large amounts of uninformative overlap.

If you want the most efficient value for your money, find someplace that will teach you to do the worthwhile core bronze figures for each dance really well, then will move you on to the silver figures. By studying a more reasonable number of figures just sufficient to embody all the basic ideas of a level, you can learn far more about actually dancing for your money. If you then want variety, you can create it yourself from your understanding of the basic ideas - or at least be in a position to efficiently adopt ideas explained in terms of familiar building blocks.

[Laura]

I'm with Chris...what the heck is "Senior Bronze"?

Personally, I prefer to learn new steps in group classes because privates are so expensive. Why waste time learning a pattern for $65/hour when I can take a group class and learn the exact same steps for far far far less. I use my private lessons to focus on technique questions that specifically pretain to how I understand and do things.

[pygmalion]

My warning bells are going off, as well. The studio where I started had bronize I,II, III, and IV. Yes, for them, it was a sales game. Just a game. Of course, that was a US-based franchise studio. All I've read here in DF leads me to believe that things are quite a bit different overseas.

[dancin_feet]

I don't have a problem with the way the studio structures their exam programme. The programme starts from absolute beginners so there are 4 levels in bronze, 2 in silver, 2 in gold and 2 in supreme gold (which is considered high level exhibition dancing). I am at the 3rd level in bronze which is Senior.

Each level introduces at least 4 new steps in each of the six dances. The first level in bronze starts with 9 steps has pretty much no technique and is step and partnership based only. Technique is only introduced as an examinable element in the second level and even then does not have to be perfect as it is considered a "work in progress" until Final. The examiner does however want to see a reasonable amount of improvement from the last level of exam completed. As I say I'm happy with this setup as I have moved quite quickly to the third level, compared to others that have gone before me.

[tasche]

I think people are voicing concern as here in the us certain studios sell packages for each sub level and will hold back your progress to get the most money out of you. As an ex kiwi I know that in NZ and Oz that sort of thing doesn't fly as we tend to be very frugal with our money.

When I was learning as a youngster we used to take medal tests that were similar structure to that of the skating exams though I forget the break of the levels.

As long as its the lack of classes holding you back rather than a devious plot to part you with your money then I wouldn't worry too much

[Chris Stratton]

Okay, this is turning out not to be quite as bad as it could have been since each sub-level sounds relatively small. Still, it does sound like a fair number of steps before much is taught about their technique. That's fine if most students won't go very far, but not for those who intend to try to really progress their overall dance skills.

The next question I'd considering interesting is if the studio has students in its silver 1,2 and gold 1,2 classes...

[dancin_feet]

I think people are voicing concern as here in the us certain studios sell packages for each sub level and will hold back your progress to get the most money out of you.

No there is no holding back so that you reach a certain number of lessons before you can go to the next level. As an example, when I initially signed up, I was told that the average is between 35 and 40 lessons per level. I am at level 3 after just 34 lessons!

Okay, this is turning out not to be quite as bad as it could have been since each sub-level sounds relatively small. Still, it does sound like a fair number of steps before much is taught about their technique. That's fine if most students won't go very far, but not for those who intend to try to really progress their overall dance skills.

You hit the nail on the head. The first 9 steps actually forms the "social" syllabus, but when you sign up for a trophy programme, the whole social syllabus becomes your first level. Because the basis of the studio is social and not competitive, yes a lot of people do drop out after a while. Only the diehards continue. :D

There are a couple of students in silver and another couple in gold, but most drop out of trophies after bronze. It is advertised that after bronze the steps move more into an exhibition style, which not everybody is interested in. At this stage, I plan on going as long as I can afford it, hopefully all the way to Supreme Gold! 8)

[Genesius Redux]

For steps--I definitely prefer a group class. In my private lessons, I like to focus on technical matters. Usually my teacher throws at least one new step or pattern in a private, but although she doesn't say so, I know that she prefers to focus on technique. I'm pretty quick with steps, so she tends to throw a new set of steps at me, works for maybe ten minutes on learning the steps and then starts focusing on the technique. The more steps I can learn in a group class, the happier she is. And it's all about keeping your teacher happy, right? :wink:

[cl5814]

ok, i'll throw in a different twist to this thread.....

In general, i think group classes are great to pick up some steps.

I bought the IS bronze manual and the corresponding bronze waltz video to pickup some steps. I found that so far it is great. I generally learn by repetition and so can go through the foot placement, foot work, timing sequence of steps at least 2 or 3 times. The manual provides the step alignment information, giving me another round of practice in the step. Some basic technique like size of steps - some steps have to be a little bigger or smaller depending if you are on the inside or outside of the turn for example - are also introduced. I only resorted to this because there is no group class for bronze IS waltz available at the moment and during summer there are less group classes in any case. I don't see this as a substitute for real group classes because you have no partner to practice with but it should be a good start to learn more steps.
Don't know yet if this is going to work as well as i anticipate but will see what my private lesson instructor thinks...

[pygmalion]

I like learning the steps in class and using videos to practice and reinforce what I've learned.

[spatten]

In my opinion if you have good fundementals you can learn new steps and figures from the books and videos or group classes. I ended up teaching myself several of the gold and open steps in Standard from the ISTD book and from various videos.

There is one important caveat, you will need to check the step with a qualified instructor - probably in a private lesson. Once you learn the timing, fotwork, and alignments - I see no reason to waste private lesson time on this - you can focus on any different technique required for that step with your teacher.

Also, if you studio brings in top coaches, you could have that coach do a new choreoghraphy for you. For example, I had been dancing bronze Waltz for about 2 years when a wonderful coach came by and we asked her to do an open choreograhpy for us. I spent 2 hours with her learning about 10 new steps, and putting them together with the rest of what I already knew. Of course it took many future privates to polish the steps, and in reality that is a ongoing process - but it worked well for me.

[cl5814]

In my opinion if you have good fundementals you can learn new steps and figures from the books and videos or group classes. I ended up teaching myself several of the gold and open steps in Standard from the ISTD book and from various videos.

There is one important caveat, you will need to check the step with a qualified instructor - probably in a private lesson. Once you learn the timing, fotwork, and alignments - I see no reason to waste private lesson time on this - you can focus on any different technique required for that step with your teacher.

Also, if you studio brings in top coaches, you could have that coach do a new choreoghraphy for you. For example, I had been dancing bronze Waltz for about 2 years when a wonderful coach came by and we asked her to do an open choreograhpy for us. I spent 2 hours with her learning about 10 new steps, and putting them together with the rest of what I already knew. Of course it took many future privates to polish the steps, and in reality that is a ongoing process - but it worked well for me.

As far as videos for gold level, i assumed that bronze level video teaching is ok since it is basic stuff. I figured for higher level - silver and above - i would rather have an instructor show me that. I was really surprised by the quality of the videos, they are all pro's teaching this stuff on video. The biggest benefit to me is the play-rewind-play again part.
As far as checking with an instructor on the steps, yes, that is exactly what i am going to do. I know the basic step now and can work from there with my instructor. Will find out this saturday if my approach is correct or a waste of time.
I always wondered what the real value of a visiting coach was. They don't know you or your level of dancing so how can they contribute towards your dancing in just 1 hour. Working on some choreography/new routine with a coach sounds like an excellent idea, provided that you tape the lesson or have your instructor with you during the coach lesson so that you can continue working on the routine.

[spatten]

As far as videos for gold level, i assumed that bronze level video teaching is ok since it is basic stuff. I figured for higher level - silver and above - i would rather have an instructor show me that

I think exactly the opposite. Basically if you try to pick up bronze steps without an instructor, you may miss the critical technique. I think there would be a much higher chance of doing something wrong, that you will have to unlearn latter.

By the time you have danced long enough to develop good technique- the chance of doing something really wrong is much less. You understand the terminology better, and know a lot of the common pitfalls. Then it just becomes learning differnt ways to use the technique you have.

I will say that orignally I did try to expand my bronze Standard learning by using the Victor Veyrasset/ Heather Smith tapes early on. I got so many wrong ideas from them you wouldn't believe.

Let me also say that I cherish every opportunity I get to work with the visiting coaches. Unless you have an absolutely stellar coach, the first few lessons with a visiting coach will improve your dancing like you wouldn't believe.



Scott

[cl5814]

ok, i have the same tapes. wrong ideas ? that sound scary. you don't think it is just another style issue ? Although i would think that you can get wrong ideas from live instructors too, guess you could directly ask with a live instructor. thanks for warning me though. My new instructor is istd certified and will hopefully pick up on any bad ideas/impressions i might have gotten from the tape.
i'd appreciate it, if you have a few minutes, and you want to PM me with any pertinent info, i don't want to take over this thread as this was not part of the original question.

[Purr]

For steps--I definitely prefer a group class. In my private lessons, I like to focus on technical matters. Usually my teacher throws at least one new step or pattern in a private, but although she doesn't say so, I know that she prefers to focus on technique. I'm pretty quick with steps, so she tends to throw a new set of steps at me, works for maybe ten minutes on learning the steps and then starts focusing on the technique. The more steps I can learn in a group class, the happier she is. And it's all about keeping your teacher happy, right? :wink:

I tend to agree with this line of thinking. Although, I'm not so sure about the keeping the teacher happy part. :wink:

[Genesius Redux]

As far as videos for gold level, i assumed that bronze level video teaching is ok since it is basic stuff. I figured for higher level - silver and above - i would rather have an instructor show me that

I think exactly the opposite. Basically if you try to pick up bronze steps without an instructor, you may miss the critical technique. I think there would be a much higher chance of doing something wrong, that you will have to unlearn latter.

Basic technique is the same--presumably the Silver and Gold steps are more challenging and intricate. I find them easier in some ways--for the same reason that I find some black belt forms easier than the very basic forms I practice. Technical grounding is the most important thing.

[Chris Stratton]

I always wondered what the real value of a visiting coach was. They don't know you or your level of dancing so how can they contribute towards your dancing in just 1 hour.

Many visiting coaches are also judges.

The definition of a judge is someone who can evaluate you dancing in <15 seconds.

It is true that there may be communication issues, though the more of the standard technique you know, the more common ground you will have to understand the visitor.

Choreograpy is one way to use such a lesson. Another is to look at technique of a small family of related actions. I've ended up using an entire hour pretty much on one step of the forward half natural...

[spatten]

I've ended up using an entire hour pretty much on one step of the forward half natural...

That pretty much defines my first Waltz coaching. I remember thinking to myself - the next time this coach comes were are going to get to the Closed Change - and maybe even the (yikes!) Reverse Turn. Well, that took a couple more coachings.

Honestly, just taking one step from dance hold took like 1/2 hour.

Cheers,
Scott

[Sakura]

I much prefer private lessons. My reasoning sits on the level that it's a personal relationship with your teacher -- so they know where your talent level lies: how fast you can learn a step, how fast you can polish that step, how quickly you pick up technique, etc. It's also comfortable, at least to me, because you have a very sure lead who knows what he/she is doing.

Also, in a group class, if you pick up a certain step much faster than anyone else and you're ready to go on, but other's aren't, you don't have to worry about being "held back," so to speak.

Of course, that's just MHO... :wink:

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[SDsalsaguy]

To follow up on what Chris says, I look at it this way... I've been teaching in undergrad writing programs for six years now. Do I have to spend time getting to know each students' individual writing before I can help them? No, of course not. The longer I know them and the more familiar I am with their individual styles, strengths, and weaknesses the easier and more quickly I can prioritize my feedback -- but I can look at a 5 page paper and make substantive suggestions in 20 minutes.

Why wouldn't it be the same with dancing and coaching?

[dancin_feet]

Also, in a group class, if you pick up a certain step much faster than anyone else and you're ready to go on, but other's aren't, you don't have to worry about being "held back," so to speak.

I agree with you on this one Sakura, I find this in groups sometimes. But to get the basic footwork, I find it easier in a group because you are doing it with someone in front of you for demonstration. I can pick up a step in a private where my instructor just leads me through it, but it doesn't get cemented in my mind as much as in a group situation.

Thanks for your comments guys. I am not in a position to get videos or visiting coaches as our studio is social, not competitive, so I guess at least one run through of the groups with the new steps would be my only option. I'm going to pick up a group schedule from the second studio tonight and hope that the timing of the group doesn't clash with my other classes! :oops: :D

[Sakura]

Well, so long as *you're* still having fun with it, I'm sure that's what we all really want, behind our "Yay! Time to give advice!" fronts! :wink: :D Go get those new steps, d_f!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[KevinL]

I will say that orignally I did try to expand my bronze Standard learning by using the Victor Veyrasset/ Heather Smith tapes early on. I got so many wrong ideas from them you wouldn't believe.

Were the "wrong ideas" that you got from the tapes taught wrong, or did you misinterpret what they were doing? It's not clear from your post.

Kevin

[spatten]

Were the "wrong ideas" that you got from the tapes taught wrong, or did you misinterpret what they were doing?

It probably is a combination of both. I think I made reasonable interpretations of their comments and ended up doing some things wrong. I think they clearly do create beautiful dancing - but that they may not explain how to do it well. Either way I think it could have been explained better, and it was easy to misunderstand.

I do have to say that the footwork, alignments and steps are right on.

Scott

[pygmalion]

I always wondered what the real value of a visiting coach was. They don't know you or your level of dancing so how can they contribute towards your dancing in just 1 hour.

Many visiting coaches are also judges.

The definition of a judge is someone who can evaluate you dancing in <15 seconds.

It is true that there may be communication issues, though the more of the standard technique you know, the more common ground you will have to understand the visitor.

Choreograpy is one way to use such a lesson. Another is to look at technique of a small family of related actions. I've ended up using an entire hour pretty much on one step of the forward half natural...

The lessons I've taken from visitng coaches always involved them watching me dance (solo :shock: ) for maybe half a song. Then, the good, usable feedback flows pretty freely. These guys (and gals) are very good at assesssing your strengths or needs in a very short time.

[Sakura]

:shock: Solo, Pygmalion!? I'd be scared out of my wits to dance alone!

Mostly because I think my poise would be wrong or something without a partner there... :? Hmm... It's very weird... But I feel a thousand times better in my dancing when I dance with a partner than by myself... Anybody else feel this way?

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[Joe]

Group lessons are fine if you want to pick up steps.

Private lessons are what you want if you want to learn how to lead the steps. And dance them correctly.