Is dance a reflection of character?

[Joy In Motion]

This question keeps coming back to me. When I discuss this with instructors I interview, I feel like I'm talking to kindred spirits and they tend to follow a similar line of thinking. But recently I had a discussion with a local dancer who just did not seem to get the correlation between the way a person dances and their character.

I hesitate to share too much of my own personal views and experiences for right now, just so I don't narrow down the discussion too much. I'd like to hear what your own philosophy is when it comes to dancing and character. What can you tell about someone by the way they dance, and what are the limitations? And to what extent do you feel your own evaluations of others' dancing is as much a reflection on you as it is the dancers in question?

[Joyful Dancer]

I do think one’s character eventually comes through in their dancing, and actually in all aspects of their lives. I’m of the opinion that one’s character permeates their entire being. If they have a sunny disposition it will show. If they possess honesty and integrity it shows in how they treat/interact with others. On the flip side, if they are of questionable character that too will ultimately “shine” (or should I say “cloud”) through.

As a somewhat “beginner” dancer, I made a vow that I’d not turn down any gentleman who asked me to dance, and to date, I have not. However; the key word is “gentleman”. The majority of the men I dance with are kind, considerate, and fun dancers. Unfortunately, a few have proved otherwise over time and I’ve made a decision not to dance with them again.

I tend to be quite intuitive; thus if my “little voice” tells me I can trust the guy I’m dancing with, I tend to dance better and with abandon. If I don’t trust the guy, my dancing is not as joyous.

As to my character coming through via my dancing, I perceive myself to be kind, generous, positive, and honest. I think this translates to the dance floor as well. I certainly try to treat others at dances, my instructor, and my fellow dance students this way. I’ve made a lot of wonderful friends via dancing so something must be working. :)

When it’s all said and done, our character (good or bad) will be remembered long after our actions/dances.:!:

[samina]

if by "character" you mean "the totality of who one is", i don't see how dancing can ever be separated from that, in the sense that everything we think, feel, eat, believe, even the memories of our experiences are reflected, energetically stored, or embodied in some way in the very physical instrument we are moving when we dance. and even if we don't realize it, as we move our bodies, we're strumming those dimensions of ourselves, not unlike human chords.

discomfort, resistance, insecurity, freedom, over-intellectualization, tight-fistedness, open-heartedness, generosity, sensuality, pleasure, refinement, stillness, chaos, femininity, masculinity... whatever qualities exist in the inner character all get "plucked" as the body is moved (or resists movement) during dancing.

IOW... dance = life

[Joy In Motion]

if by "character" you mean "the totality of who one is", i don't see how dancing can ever be separated from that, in the sense that everything we think, feel, eat, believe, even the memories of our experiences are reflected, energetically stored, or embodied in some way in the very physical instrument we are moving when we dance. and even if we don't realize it, as we move our bodies, we're strumming those dimensions of ourselves, not unlike human chords.

discomfort, resistance, insecurity, freedom, over-intellectualization, tight-fistedness, open-heartedness, generosity, sensuality, pleasure, refinement, stillness, chaos, femininity, masculinity... whatever qualities exist in the inner character all get "plucked" as the body is moved (or resists movement) during dancing.

IOW... dance = life

Very well-put, Samina. I agree.

A little off-shoot of this topic or perhaps a further development that I have been discussing with someone... What do you think of people who act overtly sexual when they dance? The gentleman I was discussing this with didn't seem to notice this quality in certain women (we were discussing women, but of course this is seen in men as well), but to me it is blatantly obvious. I suppose it could be possible that some people don't have a developed sensitivity to this kind of behavior/energy or perhaps they themselves possess this quality as well and don't see anything out-of-the-ordinary about it. When I see this type of attitude in a dancer, I feel that their dancing is very artificial and fake and/or reveals a deep vanity/superficiality/self-absorption that I greatly dislike. Again, perhaps reveals just as much about me as it does about the dancer in question. Thoughts?

[samina]

What do you think of people who act overtly sexual when they dance? ...When I see this type of attitude in a dancer, I feel that their dancing is very artificial and fake and/or reveals a deep vanity/superficiality/self-absorption that I greatly dislike. Again, perhaps reveals just as much about me as it does about the dancer in question. Thoughts?

yes, my first thought was that it revealed something about your own discomfort about whatever you're seeing and judging. it could be pinging a "chord" in your own being that wishes for a little peace-making with you. :)

acting "overtly sexual" isn't necessarily a one-size-fits-all thing... there could be all kinds of different motives and energies behind it. might be the kind of "sexual leaking" energy of somebody who doesn't know how to contain their energy and be responsible for it, and usually those are the types who get confused and are either seductive or easy to seduce, and often try to carry it over into something off the dance floor. NMT.

or could be someone who's just play-acting, which might seem offensively egoistic to someone who's uncomfortable with that. or the vitality in them might be a kind of rawness that's too in-your-face for your own sensibilities. or they could be experiencing the pleasure of sensation in their bodies, and that could be glaringly uncomfortable for someone to watch who has trouble finding a similar sensation of their life force.. lotsa different nuances possible.

[Joy In Motion]

yes, my first thought was that it revealed something about your own discomfort about whatever you're seeing and judging. it could ping a "chord" in your own being that wishes for a little peace-making with you. :)

acting "overtly sexual" isn't necessarily a one-size-fits-all thing... there could be all kinds of different motives and energies behind it. might be the kind of "sexual leaking" energy of somebody who doesn't know how to contain their energy and be responsible for it, and usually those are the types who get confused and are either seductive or easy to seduce, and often try to carry it over into something off the dance floor. NMT.

or could be someone who's just play-acting, which might seem offensively egoistic to someone who's uncomfortable with that. or the vitality in them might be a kind of rawness that's too in-your-face for your own sensibilities. or they could be experiencing the pleasure of sensation in their bodies, and that could be glaringly uncomfortable for someone to watch. lotsa different nuances possible.

Hmm, some good thoughts in there, Samina. I have been thinking about this more and more and trying to recognize my own biases.

I guess I feel that there is a big difference between being sexy in the sensual sense and being sexual in the trashy sense. I feel that when I dance there are certain times when my personal mood, the music, and my connection with my partner make me feel sensual and so this sexy energy starts to come out, but it is natural and it is not a constant thing that I am trying to create. What I see sometimes is people who are acting that way all the time and so it appears (my bias perhaps) that they are truly "acting" and that it is not just naturally coming out of them because of how dancing is making them feel. To me, it seems that some people are forcing sexuality into the dance because they want people to watch them or think people are watching them and are trying to come across a certain way. Maybe it's just me, but when I see that type of dancing I feel turned off even if they technically dance well. It's just the energy they are giving off that I don't care for. I have encountered many people who see and feel the same thing and then others who don't notice or place any negative value on it.

I recently read an excellent book about African music (drumming) and dance called African Rhythm and African Sensibility by John Chernoff. In African culture, people who dance overtly sexual (in the sense that it is out of context for the situation) are viewed as having a sexual dysfunction or psychological disturbance. Honestly, his observations and reflections on this really resonated with me because I completely agree. But I do think it's important to recognize that morals and values are very individual and yet there are some overarching principles that seem common to all. The more I reflect on this, the more I feel various shades of the issue opening up for me. I am learning a whole lot about myself.

[Joyful Dancer]

Regarding overtly sexual actions on the dance floor, I think there are several types of “sexual”


Playful/flirtatious
Dancing with Passion (respect for/love of the dance)
Sensual
Sexual
Going too far/abuse

IMO, I tend to see the first three frequently and on rare occasions, the last two. It was just such a case of going too far and feeling somewhat “violated” that caused me to refuse to dance with one individual.

I think we are all created as sensual/sexual beings and thus, we simply can’t turn off the switch just because we are dancing. However; I do think we can act responsibly and with respect (key word here) to our dance partner and appropriately for the venue we are in at the time.

In my estimation, overtly sexual dancing is best left between lovers in the privacy of their home.

I guess it all depends on the comfort level of the partners. (What I consider to be overtly sexual may not be viewed the same by others) There are some guys that I’m comfortable only dancing playfully with and there’s other guys that I’m totally OK with being sensual and completely vulnerable with on the dance floor. BTW, I tend to think that sensual is not always sexual; sometimes sensual is far more passionate ;)

[samina]

I have been thinking about this more and more and trying to recognize my own biases.

great perspective...

I guess I feel that there is a big difference between being sexy in the sensual sense and being sexual in the trashy sense. ...To me, it seems that some people are forcing sexuality into the dance because they want people to watch them or think people are watching them and are trying to come across a certain way. Maybe it's just me, but when I see that type of dancing I feel turned off even if they technically dance well.

reminds me of how i feel about the butt-to-groin grinding i've seen in clubs, often occurring en masse, with groups of men & women joining in for an orgy of this lurid business. it's so popular across several cultures in the states right now. not my thing.. just mind-bogglingly unattractive to me. but i figure... meh... others are into it. no harm in that. i guess they think it's sexy, and mebbe to each other it *is*, what do i know? i just don't see it that way. but... whatever... to each his own.

I recently read an excellent book about African music (drumming) and dance called African Rhythm and African Sensibility by John Chernoff. In African culture, people who dance overtly sexual (in the sense that it is out of context for the situation) are viewed as having a sexual dysfunction or psychological disturbance. Honestly, his observations and reflections on this really resonated with me because I completely agree. But I do think it's important to recognize that morals and values are very individual and yet there are some overarching principles that seem common to all. The more I reflect on this, the more I feel various shades of the issue opening up for me. I am learning a whole lot about myself.

i actually very much appreciate primal, sexual energy danced ritualistically. i've seen it in tahitian dancing (some amazing dance rituals in the marquesas islands...), various african dances, even the powerfully alluring dancing in the middle east/greek belly dancing of my own culture of origin.

doesn't bother me in the least to see bold displays of masculinity, femininity, or desire whilst dancing. but as part of the dance... not as a voyeur of something that should be occurring in private.:cool:

[samina]

In my estimation, overtly sexual dancing is best left between lovers in the privacy of their home.
does "dirty dancing" style of dancing fall into the category of "overtly sexual" for you? am curious... does that style of dancing make you feel uncomfortable and would you rather not to see it on the dance floor?

i'm sure there are dancers who do feel that way.

[Joyful Dancer]

does "dirty dancing" style of dancing fall into the category of "overtly sexual" for you? am curious... does that style of dancing make you feel uncomfortable and would you rather not to see it on the dance floor?

i'm sure there are dancers who do feel that way.


I suppose it could, it doesn't personally bother me but that's as far as I'd be comfortable going in public and then again not with all guys that I dance with. I think it is a personal thing and the key is to respect your dance partner and the cultural moors of the venue you find yourself in at the time.

[samina]

I suppose it could, it doesn't personally bother me but that's as far as I'd be comfortable going in public and then again not with all guys that I dance with. I think it is a personal thing and the key is to respect your dance partner and the cultural moors of the venue you find yourself in at the time.

lol... yes... can you imagine someone pulling that out at the average ballroom social? LOL...

[Joy In Motion]

Regarding overtly sexual actions on the dance floor, I think there are several types of “sexual”


Playful/flirtatious
Dancing with Passion (respect for/love of the dance)
Sensual
Sexual
Going too far/abuse

IMO, I tend to see the first three frequently and on rare occasions, the last two. It was just such a case of going too far and feeling somewhat “violated” that caused me to refuse to dance with one individual.

I think we are all created as sensual/sexual beings and thus, we simply can’t turn off the switch just because we are dancing. However; I do think we can act responsibly and with respect (key word here) to our dance partner and appropriately for the venue we are in at the time.

In my estimation, overtly sexual dancing is best left between lovers in the privacy of their home.

I guess it all depends on the comfort level of the partners. (What I consider to be overtly sexual may not be viewed the same by others) There are some guys that I’m comfortable only dancing playfully with and there’s other guys that I’m totally OK with being sensual and completely vulnerable with on the dance floor. BTW, I tend to think that sensual is not always sexual; sometimes sensual is far more passionate ;)

Very thoughtful post, Joyful. There are definitely different types of sexuality you described, and oftentimes we fit into a blend or combination of the above.

I definitely believe that how close you dance with someone and the way you dance with someone very much depends on your relationship with them, the energy and response you are receiving from them, the feel and composition of the music, etc. I was discussing this with one male dancer, and he disagreed with me. He said that he had been to an international bachata festival and some other events where everyone danced pressed up against each other and that it was considered the norm. So for him, although he acknowledges that he may not do so with someone he just met and was dancing with for the first time, he feels that considering the energy and comfort level of the other person is not necessary because to him it is part of the dance. I disagree because I don't think any type of dance by nature requires a specific or set degree of physical closeness/contact in order to do it authentically and enjoyably (at least in the social realm because I know competitive ballroom can be an exception), but I tend to find his line of thinking pretty common among some male dancers based on watching them dance.

[Joy In Motion]

i actually very much appreciate primal, sexual energy danced ritualistically. i've seen it in tahitian dancing (some amazing dance rituals in the marquesas islands...), various african dances, even the powerfully alluring dancing in the middle east/greek belly dancing of my own culture of origin.

doesn't bother me in the least to see bold displays of masculinity, femininity, or desire whilst dancing.

I appreciate this type of dancing as well, but I believe it is attached to a particular cultural expression. The "primal, sexual energy" of African dancing (as one example) comes from their culture and comes from the way they view and experience the world. Outside of that cultural context, the same movement would not have the same meaning. So for people dancing in the United States who do not have that cultural reference or some other deep internal purpose/energy/motivation driving that type of movement, their manner of dancing does not have that same primal sexual energy to it. When I think primal, I think of it as being pure, reverent, and rooted in something very elemental. What I am seeing does not have any of those qualities. But when I see someone who does possess these qualities in their dancing (regardless of their cultural background), the sexuality that comes out is beautiful and amazing instead of cheap.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy sexuality/sensuality in dancing, but I want the real thing - something genuinely masculine and genuinely feminine - and not a fake imitation.

[samina]

So for people dancing in the United States who do not have that cultural reference or some other deep internal purpose/energy/motivation driving that type of movement, their manner of dancing does not have that same primal sexual energy to it. ...
Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy sexuality/sensuality in dancing, but I want the real thing - something genuinely masculine and genuinely feminine - and not a fake imitation.

mebbe the inner craving is there for the same type of expression or experience, but lacking a socially acceptable or culturally familiar outlet, they take a stab at it in their own way... and that's what some of the vulgarity we see at times may be? just an idea...

[CANI]

But when I see someone who does possess these qualities in their dancing (regardless of their cultural background), the sexuality that comes out is beautiful and amazing instead of cheap.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy sexuality/sensuality in dancing, but I want the real thing - something genuinely masculine and genuinely feminine - and not a fake imitation.

Hi Joy in Motion –

This, for me, gets to the ‘art’ part of dancing versus the ‘athletic’ part of dancing. As humans, most of us have probably cried at some point in our lives. You can see an actor crying in a scene and think that’s not the ‘real thing’, it’s a ‘fake imitation’ and you can see another actor crying in a scene and it is ‘beautiful and amazing’, it draws you in, and touches your heart. For me, it is the same with dancing. I really applaud dancers who are working on both the ‘artist’ and the ‘athlete’ in dancing. Sometimes, just as movement will seem awkward and out of place, so, too, will the sexuality/sensuality. Also, just as there are differences in what people appreciate in a piece of art, there will be differences in what people appreciate in viewing dancing. I know when I’ve seen professional latin dancers, I’m always drawn to the understated sexuality/sensuality as I think that is more difficult to pull off, whereas others would be bored with those couples and prefer the dancers who, to them, are more overt in their display of sexuality and sensuality.

[Joy In Motion]

mebbe the inner craving is there for the same type of expression or experience, but lacking a socially acceptable or culturally familiar outlet, they take a stab at it in their own way... and that's what some of the vulgarity we see at times may be? just an idea...

That's an interesting question. I recently read Reggaeton, a collection of essays on the music and dance by a handful of scholars and musicians. Several of the essays talked about the style of dancing to reggaeton music that is called perreo (doggie-style). Several of the essays attempt to explain/explore this recent cultural phenomenon of overtly sexual dancing, which I believe is what you were referring to in an earlier post. The book is worth checking out if you're interested in reading more...

[Joy In Motion]

Hi Joy in Motion –

This, for me, gets to the ‘art’ part of dancing versus the ‘athletic’ part of dancing. As humans, most of us have probably cried at some point in our lives. You can see an actor crying in a scene and think that’s not the ‘real thing’, it’s a ‘fake imitation’ and you can see another actor crying in a scene and it is ‘beautiful and amazing’, it draws you in, and touches your heart. For me, it is the same with dancing. I really applaud dancers who are working on both the ‘artist’ and the ‘athlete’ in dancing. Sometimes, just as movement will seem awkward and out of place, so, too, will the sexuality/sensuality. Also, just as there are differences in what people appreciate in a piece of art, there will be differences in what people appreciate in viewing dancing. I know when I’ve seen professional latin dancers, I’m always drawn to the understated sexuality/sensuality as I think that is more difficult to pull off, whereas others would be bored with those couples and prefer the dancers who, to them, are more overt in their display of sexuality and sensuality.

Very well-written, CANI! That's a very good analogy and an interesting way of looking at it. I think seeing it from the point of view of artistry might be a helpful way of reshaping the issue. I definitely feel that artistry is a very large part of how I evaluate dancers (vs. just technique or ability). It also takes into account individual preferences. Perhaps seeing it this way will also help alleviate some of the frustrations I am feeling and judgments I am forming against particular dancers and styles of dance, as Samina and I were discussing.

[samina]

Several of the essays talked about the style of dancing to reggaeton music that is called perreo (doggie-style). Several of the essays attempt to explain/explore this recent cultural phenomenon of overtly sexual dancing, which I believe is what you were referring to in an earlier post...

spot-on... and while that may have started within the reggaeton community, it seems to have quickly cross-pollinated into the afro-american clubs and the non-afro community as well. not that i'm an expert on those clubs... just have seen it in any such club i've gone to in recent years: afro, latin, and culturally "white".

could be satisfying a craving for some kind of "raw dancing" within the general character or psyche.

[Joy In Motion]

spot-on... and while that may have started within the reggaeton community, it seems to have quickly cross-pollinated into the afro-american clubs and the non-afro community as well. not that i'm an expert on those clubs... just have seen it in any such club i've gone to in recent years: afro, latin, and culturally "white".

could be satisfying a craving for some kind of "raw dancing" within the general character or psyche.

Well reggaeton definitely does not have the monopoly on that type of dancing. I'm sure there has been mutual influence between them, since no dance or culture (in today's world anyway) is insular.

I can see the craving for raw sexuality/dancing. I experience that myself. There's always a balance (or least there should be). Our ability/willingness to use healthy and appropriate channels for healthy emotions/desires/instincts is very important. Contrary to what people may think, freedom and the absence of limitations are not the same thing. In fact, they don't even agree with each other. The structure of music and dance are a perfect example.

[samina]

Well reggaeton definitely does not have the monopoly on that type of dancing. I'm sure there has been mutual influence between them, since no dance or culture (in today's world anyway) is insular.


yes, good point.

[fascination]

I think my strengths in dance are my strengths across the board...and my weaknesses in dance are my weaknesses across the board...and I think that wherever and whenever I make a concerted effort to work on those issues, I improve across the board

[Leonid Turetsky]

I definitely agree with most of you that how we dance is correlated to who we are.

One of the things that I noticed from teaching, is how many female students who came from a conservative or reserved background/family values/culture and did pro/am with me did not show any emotion when they danced and could not be as "free" in their movement. And I tried to get them to understand that dancing is as much about "acting" the part as it is dancing the part, but it did little to change their unemotional/reserved dance performance.

And then for example I had a girl who was from the Caribbean, (most would agree they are usually not as reserved as other cultures). And the girl really could play the part and bring lots of emotion and sensuality to her dancing.

[CANI]

And I tried to get them to understand that dancing is as much about "acting" the part as it is dancing the part, but it did little to change their unemotional/reserved dance performance.


Hi Leonid - When you say "pro/am" do you mean competitions or general dancing? I can see your point if you mean competitions, outside of competitions I have a different view.

[Leonid Turetsky]

I mean girls who did Pro/Am competitions...
But I would apply the bulk of my post to general dancing too...

Hi Leonid - When you say "pro/am" do you mean competitions or general dancing? I can see your point if you mean competitions, outside of competitions I have a different view.

[CANI]

I mean girls who did Pro/Am competitions...
But I would apply the bulk of my post to general dancing too...

Thanks

[Joy In Motion]

One of the things that I noticed from teaching, is how many female students who came from a conservative or reserved background/family values/culture and did pro/am with me did not show any emotion when they danced and could not be as "free" in their movement. And I tried to get them to understand that dancing is as much about "acting" the part as it is dancing the part, but it did little to change their unemotional/reserved dance performance.

Maybe avoiding the reference to acting would actually be helpful in this case. Some people associate acting with artificiality, or at least when they try to bring out something that they are not feeling it doesn't come out right and looks awkward. Maybe it would be good to have some stock examples you use of when you might feel a particular emotion that you want them to express through their dancing. If they can relate to that and try to feel that emotion genuinely instead of trying to act it while they are dancing, maybe that will help. And that might open up for them greater self-expression in other areas of their life. Of course this requires some vulnerability on their part (and great sensitivity and care from the instructor), but to me personal growth is one of the joys of dancing.

[samina]

maybe in this context: acting = self-expression ?

[Joy In Motion]

I mean girls who did Pro/Am competitions...
But I would apply the bulk of my post to general dancing too...

Hmm, I think I see where CANI was going with that question... Can you explain why you would apply acting a part to the realm of social dancing as well?

[CANI]

Maybe avoiding the reference to acting would actually be helpful in this case. Some people associate acting with artificiality, or at least when they try to bring out something that they are not feeling it doesn't come out right and looks awkward. Maybe it would be good to have some stock examples you use of when you might feel a particular emotion that you want them to express through their dancing. If they can relate to that and try to feel that emotion genuinely instead of trying to act it while they are dancing, maybe that will help. And that might open up for them greater self-expression in other areas of their life. Of course this requires some vulnerability on their part (and great sensitivity and care from the instructor), but to me personal growth is one of the joys of dancing.

This gets to what I was thinking. For me, dancing (as well as other sports and arts I've explored) is very personal. It is a time to be me -- nothing else -- pure me. Of course, 'me' continually changes and grows and evolves. However, if my teacher asked me to act xyz, I would feel a pit in my stomach of "No, no, no! No acting here! Only me, the real me! That's what I want to tap into!" But if he said, think of a time when you've felt xyz emotion and let that come out in your dancing, that I could buy into. Of course, thinking it and getting your body to have the control and movement to express it can be a challenge, but that's a whole other matter.

[fascination]

I think there is alot of merit to this topic... we all have a tendency to dance in a manner consistent with who we are...but we also have an opportunity to scuplt anew who we are....

things that come easily to me and can be seen in my dancing; power, intensity, emotion

things that I need to work on; control, patience, gentleness, precision

when these things are all present, my dancing is at its best...

I see similar issues in folks whose dancing I have watched for a while and who I know reasonably well...cautious folks tend to dance cautiously, analytical folks tend to dance precisely....cold folks may come across as flat...we bring who we are to the floor, whether or not we also deliberately bring what we would also like to be, is the challenge...and IMO, the practice of that is the process of becoming more than we once were...the lessons I have had to learn in the past year about relaxing, patience, self-control, long-suffering, etc. have not only served my dancing well, they have made me a better person...and I am grateful for that, because I needed and still do, to be on the path of smoothing out those rough edges, and pulling them out, not just when it feels right to do so, but when it is right to do so, and in a very deliberate way and in an appropriate measure...

[CANI]

And a critical piece to this is no one but the person -- and whomever they choose to share it with -- knows what the person wants to become. If a person abhors a value that is generally valued in dancing, it may not serve them well if they choose to compete, but it certainly will serve them well in their enjoyment of their dancing being a true expression of themselves and of who they strive to be -- absolute pure authenticity -- not bending to how others view them or their dancing. I can't look at another person, in a non-competive setting, and say she or he is being too reserved in dancing -- only they can judge that.

[Leonid Turetsky]

Oh okay I see where you are going.... yes "acting" would apply more to competitors...."self-expression" to general dancing. Thanks Samina!

Yes, CANI I can see how people want to express who they are when they dance, but then wouldn't every dance look the same then? Maybe we should try to express ourselves but within the character of the dance still?

[madmaximus]

Movement never lies.






m

[Leonid Turetsky]

Like for example, Salsa requires a lot of hip action .... if YOU are not comfortable with moving that region of your body.....wouldn't you work on getting comfortable.... at least to a certain degree, so that you can express that dance?

[CANI]

Yes, CANI I can see how people want to express who they are when they dance, but then wouldn't every dance look the same then? Maybe we should try to express ourselves but within the character of the dance still?

Every dance would look the same only for that very, very, very rare -- and perhaps non-existant, one-dimensional person. We have so much depth and variety within each of us. If we enjoy dancing a dance, there is something about that dance that appeals to us. And, if not, I'm ok with someone who wants their cha cha to look like their rumba to look like their samba -- dance and enjoy -- it is all good in my book. :D

[samina]

Oh okay I see where you are going.... yes "acting" would apply more to competitors...."self-expression" to general dancing. Thanks Samina!

hmm... good food for thought. :D when i've competed i've only sought to bring out what is authentic within me to express the spirit of the dance, so for me, "acting" isn't a concern of mine. self-expression, whether for social or competitive dancing, is definitely how i look at it.

i do find the idea of "acting as play" a helpful concept WRT dancing, either socially or competitively, but am wary of "acting" in general because i see a lot of dancers on the comp floor who are "acting", and they just look false.

bringing out the authentic inner being, and cultivating areas that one is drawn to express for personal or performance reasons seems the strongest approach IMO... because it's real and does indeed reflect the inner character, then.

[samina]

Movement never lies.






m

sums it up, IMO.

[Leonid Turetsky]

Yes, just to be clear when I use the word "acting" I mean "selling" the part.... really feeling it and telling a story that people believe.....as opposed to being "fake" and trying too hard...

[CANI]

Yes, just to be clear when I use the word "acting" I mean "selling" the part.... really feeling it and telling a story that people believe.....as opposed to being "fake" and trying too hard...

Yes -- nicely put.

[samina]

Yes, just to be clear when I use the word "acting" I mean "selling" the part.... really feeling it and telling a story that people believe.....as opposed to being "fake" and trying too hard...
that's what i suspected. :)

this is an issue i spend a lot of time working with because it hasn't flowed naturally for me. reminds me of one judge's helpful comment: "you have something to sell, but your sales department is on strike." ;)

[Leonid Turetsky]

here is a related question: Do you think "selling the part" is a skill that can be learned over time?

[CANI]

here is a related question: Do you think "the selling the part" is a skill that can be learned over time?
Depends on if you agree with what selling the part has to look like and if you want to get there. If you want it, yes, I'm a firm believer you can have it. You can learn anything you really want to learn.

[samina]

here is a related question: Do you think "selling the part" is a skill that can be learned over time?

IME, it's an unlearning process...taking the brakes off... rather than learning to do something in particular. remove all the resistance to revealing "what is", and what's underneath comes out naturally (or, er... more naturally).

if someone wants to un-do and let go enuf... sure. but it's an inner, soulful thing... takes a lot of courage to change from within. not everyone's up for that.

i think that "natural" dancers are, in part, without the reserve or "brakes" that that resistance provides. god bless'em...

[Joy In Motion]

Every dance would look the same only for that very, very, very rare -- and perhaps non-existant, one-dimensional person. We have so much depth and variety within each of us. If we enjoy dancing a dance, there is something about that dance that appeals to us. And, if not, I'm ok with someone who wants their cha cha to look like their rumba to look like their samba -- dance and enjoy -- it is all good in my book. :D

I agree that we have so many different facets to our personality. But also, each dance should not look the same because although all dances share some similarities, the real essence of each dance is to be found in the differences. If you really want to get to explore what that dance has to offer, you have to be willing to give up your preconceptions and previous experiences and give in to the pecularities of that particular dance. They should not look the same because the feel of the dance and especially the music require something else. You can dance them all the same, but what I think that would be revealing about you is that you don't really care to get the essence of the dance and the music. To give an example, the ballroom dances (smooth/standard) are grouped together (vs. the Latin dances) because they share certain characteristics, but if you were to minimize the differneces between the waltz, foxtrot, tango, etc., you would cease to have several different amazing dance forms and instead would just have one single hybrid of all of them - not very fun and interesting if you ask me.

I was having a discussion with an experienced male dancer and a very beginning male student of mine last week. We were discussing how many dancers do a ballroom version of bachata - very linear with long side to side steps instead of more in place and rotational - as well as adding a bunch of salsa turns. I made the point that you can dance bachata that way, but it is basically dancing ballroom to bachata music and not doing actual bachata itself. While each dance of course evolves, it does not typically just gradually dissolve into a watered-down form of something else (well it can, but that is certainly not the ideal!). Bachata has a very distinct look and feel because of what the music is doing. You can certainly dance a ballroom version of it and then add a bunch of salsa turns, but if you want to do ballroom or salsa then why not do those dances instead? I am certainly okay with experimenting and trying out elements of one dance in another, but I think a lot of times people show a lack of patience and commitment to learning the essence of that particular dance - and again we are coming back to character. I recognize that to some people it is of little consequence, but some serious dancers don't take the time and effort to explore the music and dance and instead just offer up a watered-down version because they pick up choreography quickly. For those who dance occasionally and just want to have fun and not get that into it, I really don't mind and good for them for enjoying themselves. But when you get to a certain level or depth in your dancing, you start to desire something more. In my case, I really don't enjoy dancing bachata as much with someone who dances it in a ballroom style (there are exceptions, like if they show great style and creativity with the fusion, but I find that to be rare) because it makes me feel disconnected from the music. We can't have that! :)

[Joy In Motion]

IME, it's an unlearning process...taking the brakes off... rather than learning to do something in particular. remove all the resistance to revealing "what is", and what's underneath comes out naturally (or, er... more naturally).

if someone wants to un-do and let go enuf... sure. but it's an inner, soulful thing... takes a lot of courage to change from within. not everyone's up for that.

i think that "natural" dancers are, in part, without the reserve or "brakes" that that resistance provides. god bless'em...

I agree. The whole learned vs. innate issue. It isn't an either/or thing; both are involved. Some are naturals, some aren't but learn quickly, and some aren't and learn slowly. If they don't learn at all, typically it is lack of interest or desire (or a fear of genuinely trying).

"but it's an inner, soulful thing... takes a lot of courage to change from within"... Definitely. An instructor who doesn't recognize this will never help their students achieve their best.

[CANI]

not very fun and interesting if you ask me.



And here is the key! Everyone has what is fun and interesting for them. And I am of the opinion that there is room for all the diversity in the world within ballroom dancing. :D

[samina]

Some are naturals, some aren't but learn quickly, and some aren't and learn slowly.

yes, and there are different things that one can be a "natural" in. there are some athletic, musical, and pattern/learning-oriented aspects involved in dancing that i'm a natural for. but the self-expressive aspect of "dancing", which ties everything together and makes someone naturally "dancer-y"... alas, nope.

[fascination]

And a critical piece to this is no one but the person -- and whomever they choose to share it with -- knows what the person wants to become. If a person abhors a value that is generally valued in dancing, it may not serve them well if they choose to compete, but it certainly will serve them well in their enjoyment of their dancing being a true expression of themselves and of who they strive to be -- absolute pure authenticity -- not bending to how others view them or their dancing. I can't look at another person, in a non-competive setting, and say she or he is being too reserved in dancing -- only they can judge that.
good point...particualarly in a social setting...but I would tend to maintain that if one is very reserved, while entitled to compete, and be authentically in whatever they choose, certain tendencies don't translate well on the competitive floor...IMV

[fascination]

Oh okay I see where you are going.... yes "acting" would apply more to competitors...."self-expression" to general dancing. Thanks Samina!

Yes, CANI I can see how people want to express who they are when they dance, but then wouldn't every dance look the same then? Maybe we should try to express ourselves but within the character of the dance still?
don't know...I think it should be self -expression in either venue, the absence of which is more detrimental on a comp floor,...but there are plenty of folks in both venues who simply don't want to express themselves ...and don't shrug...and that's fine...not everyone wants to be an open book...

[fascination]

Like for example, Salsa requires a lot of hip action .... if YOU are not comfortable with moving that region of your body.....wouldn't you work on getting comfortable.... at least to a certain degree, so that you can express that dance?
dunno...I knwo some women who are very confident in their body image and can move to beat the band, but not in emoting...so it can vary

[Joy In Motion]

And here is the key! Everyone has what is fun and interesting for them. And I am of the opinion that there is room for all the diversity in the world within ballroom dancing. :D

Yes, true. But as an instructor, I can say that opening up that world to people who wouldn't see it otherwise is an amazing thing. There is a deeper level of enjoyment to be found by exploring the music and the dance further. Sure, they can have fun without it, but when you are passionate about dancing you want to show people how they can have even more fun. As an instructor, I offer a window into this deeper world. Of course they don't have to take that offer, but I never stop giving it. Most love seeing and exploring it. Maybe they won't keep dancing after they take a workshop and maybe they will, but either way they feel like they've tapped into something deep. Some just don't seem to have the capacity or the desire to explore it, and in that case I give them what they're there for, but that is pretty rare. Usually those are cases where the person is just trying to make a spouse happy or just wants some quick exercise of whatever, which is still fine with me. But typically people who keep dancing for any length of time want to keep learning about it if it is presented to them in a way that is fun and enjoyable for them (vs. pressuring them to be better for example).

[fascination]

hmm... good food for thought. :D when i've competed i've only sought to bring out what is authentic within me to express the spirit of the dance, so for me, "acting" isn't a concern of mine. self-expression, whether for social or competitive dancing, is definitely how i look at it.

i do find the idea of "acting as play" a helpful concept WRT dancing, either socially or competitively, but am wary of "acting" in general because i see a lot of dancers on the comp floor who are "acting", and they just look false.

bringing out the authentic inner being, and cultivating areas that one is drawn to express for personal or performance reasons seems the strongest approach IMO... because it's real and does indeed reflect the inner character, then.agree...it has never accurred to me to act on the floor...now, I have had to practice projecting something I didn't feel in practices in odre to get to a place of confidence so that I could infuse the thing with the proper feeling later

[fascination]

here is a related question: Do you think "selling the part" is a skill that can be learned over time?
I KNOW it can

[Joy In Motion]

yes, and there are different things that one can be a "natural" in. there are some athletic, musical, and pattern/learning-oriented aspects involved in dancing that i'm a natural for. but the self-expressive aspect of "dancing", which ties everything together and makes someone naturally "dancer-y"... alas, nope.

Agreed, Samina. So then we are discussing two different things I think. One is just self-expression in general, and I think that can be improved and learned to a certain extent. But that "it" thing that, as you say, "ties everything together and makes someone naturally 'dancer-y'", I agree that the answer is no. That is truly a gift given only to a select few.

[CANI]

Yes, true. But as an instructor, I can say that opening up that world to people who wouldn't see it otherwise is an amazing thing. There is a deeper level of enjoyment to be found by exploring the music and the dance further. Sure, they can have fun without it, but when you are passionate about dancing you want to show people how they can have even more fun. As an instructor, I offer a window into this deeper world. Of course they don't have to take that offer, but I never stop giving it. Most love seeing and exploring it. Maybe they won't keep dancing after they take a workshop and maybe they will, but either way they feel like they've tapped into something deep. Some just don't seem to have the capacity or the desire to explore it, and in that case I give them what they're there for, but that is pretty rare. Usually those are cases where the person is just trying to make a spouse happy or just wants some quick exercise of whatever, which is still fine with me. But typically people who keep dancing for any length of time want to keep learning about it if it is presented to them in a way that is fun and enjoyable for them (vs. pressuring them to be better for example).

Yes, as an instructor I can imagine there are many beautiful parts of dancing you can explore with your students.

[Leonid Turetsky]

Yes that is true...and some people don't do both!


dunno...I knwo some women who are very confident in their body image and can move to beat the band, but not in emoting...so it can vary

[samina]

..now, I have had to practice projecting something I didn't feel in practices in odre to get to a place of confidence so that I could infuse the thing with the proper feeling later

definitely. as in life.. life equalling what we're able to reveal in dance... :)

[samina]

But that "it" thing that, as you say, "ties everything together and makes someone naturally 'dancer-y'", I agree that the answer is no. That is truly a gift given only to a select few.
i do agree to that as far as this quality being a natural gift akin to any other natural gift bestowed upon an individual...however one might explain or find meaning in such a bestowing or natural quaity.

however, i'm not persuaded that the ability is permanently evasive. only that there is a significant journey involved to reveal it... if someone has the dedication & perseverance to do so.

[danceronice]

here is a related question: Do you think "selling the part" is a skill that can be learned over time?

Yep. No question. I don't know that everyone can learn it, but it's just acting and that's a learned skill. Doesn't even have to be Method. Those people who think I must just LOVE Smooth by watching me compete have seen an excellent example of it. It's okay, but if there are judges it has to look like it's just great.

I think that's where I'm hung up on the question--it's acting, whether I'm social dancing or competing (more so the latter, obviously.) If you're a good enough actor, your real character's irrelevant as long as you're on stage. Dancing is just acting with your body instead of your voice. I have FUN doing it, but I only should be projecting fun if the designated character of the dance calls for it. If the dance is sensual, that's what I should be projecting, my feelings about my partner aren't relevant. Obviously it's easier if you like the person, but you can do a love scene with someone you're indifferent to if you work at it.

(Yes, I might as well have a t-shirt that says "Not a Method Actor." I never got the Method people.)

[Peaches]

Interesting food for thought. I don't really have an answer, except to speak of my own experience.

When I first started dancing I was learning social/American style. I had a hard time with anything involving emoting. Sure, I could work on the steps and (ha!) technique, but anything even remotely "outgoing" was a no-go for me. What stands out to me was (well, is, really) anything involving arm/hand motions. I just could not, and cannot, bring myself to be that expressive. It was hard enough not to keep a free hand wrapped around my waist. It's incredibly hard to both dance and try to hide in a corner at the same time.

Then I tried AT, and it clicked right from the outset. One of the things I really liked about it was the fact that it was, in a lot of ways, very reserves. I got that it was very sensual, or very playful, or very romantic, or very dramatic right away...but it was understated, and mostly between partners. Well, that's how I thought of it at the time at least...and still do, actually. The fact that there was plenty of emotion there, but in a quiet and small fashion really worked for me. Although, again, even with AT I still have a hard time with any movements that are somewhat bigger or more expressive.

Something that I didn't really notice, but that my teacher has pointed out several times, is that I'm a completely different person and different dancer now. Well, he sees it at least. According to him I've become more confident and outgoing, personally, and that comes through in my dancing.

So...I guess...yeah, dance does reflect character. IME.

[Angel HI]

Interesting food for thought. I don't really have an answer, except to speak of my own experience.

When I first started dancing I was learning social/American style. I had a hard time with anything involving emoting. Sure, I could work on the steps and (ha!) technique, but anything even remotely "outgoing" was a no-go for me. What stands out to me was (well, is, really) anything involving arm/hand motions. I just could not, and cannot, bring myself to be that expressive. It was hard enough not to keep a free hand wrapped around my waist. It's incredibly hard to both dance and try to hide in a corner at the same time.

Then I tried AT, and it clicked right from the outset. One of the things I really liked about it was the fact that it was, in a lot of ways, very reserves. I got that it was very sensual, or very playful, or very romantic, or very dramatic right away...but it was understated, and mostly between partners. Well, that's how I thought of it at the time at least...and still do, actually. The fact that there was plenty of emotion there, but in a quiet and small fashion really worked for me. Although, again, even with AT I still have a hard time with any movements that are somewhat bigger or more expressive.

Something that I didn't really notice, but that my teacher has pointed out several times, is that I'm a completely different person and different dancer now. Well, he sees it at least. According to him I've become more confident and outgoing, personally, and that comes through in my dancing.

So...I guess...yeah, dance does reflect character. IME.Peaches' post, like others, is interesting b/c it really clarfies, or perhaps, qualifies, this thread. There are many reasons why one comes to dance. Yet, these are not character traits, necessarily, these are needs/desires. As Peaches posted, after finding the right dance for her, she not only found her needs met, but also that she became a different person (that is, that her character/personality might have changed).

Summarizing, it seems fair to say that character and dance do have a relationship, but as to which influences the other first/more....... hmmm.

[Leonid Turetsky]

Well there we go... an example of someone who has made progress in "emotional expression" in dancing. I agree that it can be learned, may take a long time and may not be completely as natural as NATURAL CAN BE, but definitely improved upon over time...


Interesting food for thought. I don't really have an answer, except to speak of my own experience.

When I first started dancing I was learning social/American style. I had a hard time with anything involving emoting. Sure, I could work on the steps and (ha!) technique, but anything even remotely "outgoing" was a no-go for me. What stands out to me was (well, is, really) anything involving arm/hand motions. I just could not, and cannot, bring myself to be that expressive. It was hard enough not to keep a free hand wrapped around my waist. It's incredibly hard to both dance and try to hide in a corner at the same time.

Then I tried AT, and it clicked right from the outset. One of the things I really liked about it was the fact that it was, in a lot of ways, very reserves. I got that it was very sensual, or very playful, or very romantic, or very dramatic right away...but it was understated, and mostly between partners. Well, that's how I thought of it at the time at least...and still do, actually. The fact that there was plenty of emotion there, but in a quiet and small fashion really worked for me. Although, again, even with AT I still have a hard time with any movements that are somewhat bigger or more expressive.

Something that I didn't really notice, but that my teacher has pointed out several times, is that I'm a completely different person and different dancer now. Well, he sees it at least. According to him I've become more confident and outgoing, personally, and that comes through in my dancing.

So...I guess...yeah, dance does reflect character. IME.

[Br0nze]

Dance, imo, is the expression of emotion through movement as opposed to words. Technique, or what we call technique, is the tool that helps us coordinate the power of emotion and movement, or rather, into concentrated enough energy to produce the desired outcome with our body. Because dance utilizes the body, and the emotions that an individual feels, the separation of one's character from the movements one performs is nearly impossible.

The dances that exist are described to have their own character/istic/s and it is through the steps that we achieve these character/istic/s. For this to occur, a dancer (again imo) absolutely must possess these emotions him/her self. Yes, one can "act" out the emotion, however as madmaximus pointed out, 'Movement never lies.'

Movement is the first thing that a human learns to do, so to speak. We crawl, we stand upright and then we walk. In those very first few crawls, and steps, our character is formulated and influenced. Of course factors like upbringing and environment play a factor, but let us assume we are talking about the basic human emotions and characteristics here, and not sociological and psychological analytical or therapeutic (albeit often true) mambo jumbo. All human beings have the basic emotions of happiness, caring, anger (there are others, but I fail to recall them) and all humans allow their emotions flow through two outlets: words and motions. And when words fail us, we turn to motion, and vice versa.

Is dance, then, a reflection of our character? Without a doubt. Can we discover more about our character, more about ourselves and others through the act of dancing, and learning how to dance, how to control our bodies and channel the proper energy into the appropriate muscle/joint/motion? Of course.

Dance is a reflection of the character of humanity simply because we practice it, because it exists, and that in itself is enough reason to say that it provides a glimpse into the cultures and states of mind of humanity. For all the different forms of dance (Belly, Tap, Ballet, Modern) and their stylistic inceptions (International, American, etc) at their base they all remain a form of expression and a pathway to self-discovery. They remain imitations (maybe even homages?) of the world man sees around him, and relate the relationship man has with said world -- nothing moves until it is acted upon (resonating the laws of Newton and the foundation of Physics, if I am not mistaken (if I am, tell me, for I am a lowly English teacher, not a scientist :P)).

[AndaBien]

Hey, pages in this discussion are being added faster than I can read them.

It seems we all agree that dance reflects character. I too, am sure it does. Think about the dancers who you know personally and decide if they dance exactly according to their individual personality/character traits. (I use the two words to mean the same thing: more on that in a moment). As a generality, even whole societies have a character to their dance. Japanese, Germans, Italians, Americans; all dance AT with a quality that reflects their national character.

I believe psychologists think our personality is pretty much formed by the time we are teenagers, and will not change much after that age. However, we also have many personas that we wear at various times. Through dance, a certain persona may be revealed, but I don't think it can be created, else it looks artificial. You can see in a dancer when they are showing a character that is theirs, versus "selling" a character that is not theirs.

Marcel Marceau said the only human quality he could not portray on stage was a lie.

As a teacher, I like to think in terms of revealing the dancer within, rather than creating a dancer. I think a dancer must dance according to their own character, or else their dance will lack character and will feel lifeless. Let me add; character is different from technique.

[Joy In Motion]

As a teacher, I like to think in terms of revealing the dancer within, rather than creating a dancer. I think a dancer must dance according to their own character, or else their dance will lack character and will feel lifeless. Let me add; character is different from technique.

I think this is a very good point that is worth emphasizing, and I try to keep this philosophy as an instructor as well. I read an excellent book on capoeira by Greg Downey. He wrote that in the community in which he studied (in Brazil), the greater the variety of styles among an instructor's students, the greater esteem given to the instructor. I think that's an excellent philosophy. You may notice a similar technique among students of the same instructor, but if you see a bunch of copy-cats it's a sign that the instructor is forcing a preconceived mold on his/her students instead of teaching them dancing from the inside out, which would naturally result in various authentic personal styles. Of course everyone will naturally dance differently regardless, but I think the best instructors really make an effort to nurture the unique creative spirit in each individual and emphasize choices within the dance while still maintaining the proper technique/character of that particular dance.

[AndaBien]

...it's a sign that the instructor is forcing a preconceived mold on his/her students instead of teaching them dancing from the inside out, which would naturally result in various authentic personal styles.

Yes. Another teacher once told me that someone had pointed out a beautiful dancer and said "That's one of your students. isn't it?". This other teacher felt proud that one of her students could be identified by style. I would have thought I had done a poor job by leaving my mark on a student.

[Joy In Motion]

Yes. Another teacher once told me that someone had pointed out a beautiful dancer and said "That's one of your students. isn't it?". This other teacher felt proud that one of her students could be identified by style. I would have thought I had done a poor job by leaving my mark on a student.

Well I do think an instructor can definitely leave their mark on a student without creating a copycat. If for example all the other instructors are creating these cookie-cutters who all do the same moves and styling (which sadly applies to the majority in my opinion), then others may know someone is your student because they display creativity and a unique personal style while still showing some influence from the instructor.

But we also need to recognize that the responsibility falls on both the instructor and the student. Good instructors focus on this, but students also need to seek out these types of instructors and be less focused on just learning some kind of syllabus (unless of course they decide that's all they care about). Ultimately the learner needs to set that expectation and decide what kind of learning they want to pursue. But sometimes they don't know that something deeper is available unless someone shows them, because again the majority just offer up the cookie-cooker. Someone who originally thought the cookie-cooker was pretty great may be lucky enough to happen upon an instructor or fellow dancer who shows them that there is more they may want.

[Angel HI]

Like this post by bronze...... http://dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=739085&postcount=63

Also, I gree w/ Joy that this is a very good point by Anda....

As a teacher, I like to think in terms of revealing the dancer within, rather than creating a dancer.

[Joy In Motion]

Summarizing, it seems fair to say that character and dance do have a relationship, but as to which influences the other first/more....... hmmm.

I finally found that quote I was looking for from Greg Downey's book on capoeira...

"One does not develop a desired 'virtue' because a technique successfully shapes a person's body, like a stylus inscribing symbols on soft clay. Rather, one can change one's body only by transforming one's character at the same time, behaving consistently in new ways."

He makes an interesting point, and in the book he gives more examples. But I do think it's one of those mysterious things where we move the way we are and yet moving in certain ways also in turn shapes our characters. Must be one of those mutually-influencing things that you can't really pin down.

[crazzycat]

Interesting thought you brought here, i think off cause every dance shows some trate of human's character cause if he seriously go for it, he must feel it

[fascination]

welcome to df crazzy

[bia]

I've been lurking for a while, and this thread inspired me to register. Hi, everyone!

I think there are a lot of valuable insights already posted here. I think there's no question that authentic dance has to come from a person's character and that the experience of dance can change that character -- or at least reveal aspects of it that the dancer was previously unaware of. The discussion of getting reserved dancers to reveal themselves through dance interests me, since that's me -- definitely an introvert. Part of the connection between character and dance is in the style that suits an individual, as Peaches pointed out. For me, it's standard. Part of the connection is also the process that an individual dancer goes through to get to authentic expression and performance. I had (briefly) an amateur partner who said to me that introverts couldn't compete effectively (and pretty much shouldn't try), since they're incapable of selling a performance. This was when we were planning to compete together a few months later. We did compete, and, no, it didn't go well, and I'm sure he felt that I held him back. I know for myself the process I need to go through to be able to project a performance, and it's all about being confident that I know what I'm doing, that it's fully in my body, and that I can trust my partner to be there with me. In that situation, I can relax into the dance and let it flow out of me and connect with an audience. But no way can I sell something I'm not secure in. I really appreciate the teachers in this thread who recognize the different routes that their students have to take to get to expression through dance.

[Nybz]

Welcome out of lurking Bia!

[fascination]

welcome bia...and fwiw, I know of one introvert who has won at least three open titles, so...while, it may be a struggle, it is part of the learning process like everything else

[TAK]

I believe psychologists think our personality is pretty much formed by the time we are teenagers, and will not change much after that age. However, we also have many personas that we wear at various times. Through dance, a certain persona may be revealed, but I don't think it can be created, else it looks artificial. You can see in a dancer when they are showing a character that is theirs, versus "selling" a character that is not theirs.

As a psychology graduate student, I would add to this that many psychologists think "personality" is actually much less important and influential than most people tend to assume. Yes, there are systematic differences, but people are surprisingly flexible and plastic. I personally believe this is true in dancing as well as in life more generally.

I think that's where I'm hung up on the question--it's acting, whether I'm social dancing or competing (more so the latter, obviously.) If you're a good enough actor, your real character's irrelevant as long as you're on stage. Dancing is just acting with your body instead of your voice. I have FUN doing it, but I only should be projecting fun if the designated character of the dance calls for it. If the dance is sensual, that's what I should be projecting, my feelings about my partner aren't relevant. Obviously it's easier if you like the person, but you can do a love scene with someone you're indifferent to if you work at it.

This is the post that resonated with me the most in this thread.

For a long time (this is still a bad habit) I tried to be "authentic" and project what I am truly feeling when I dance, which is generally enjoyment. I really tried to make it clear what I enjoyed about dancing. But -- aside from the fact danceronice pointed out, that not all dances call for projecting "fun" -- enjoyment is quite a passive thing, and IMO it does not read well to audiences. I never looked like a true performer until I understood why that approach wasn't working for me.

Now, I am working on conveying something more active when I compete or perform. I do not want to sound like a control freak, but this comes from experience -- I need to be in charge, and look like I'm in charge. That's not something that felt particularly natural or authentic to me at first -- especially since I was doing steps someone else told me to do, to music I didn't choose, and aside from that my job is to follow my partner, not to lead...none of which naturally goes together with power in my head. But I'm slowly understanding how to do it, and it has the effect of making me look like I'm actually dancing more authentically.

Also, I want to object to the "floodgate" model of introversion many in this thread seem to agree with. As someone who tends to be pretty introverted but has made a lot of progress on being "expressive," I can say that it isn't always as simple as just lifting the dampers and letting my "true self" flow out. It is kind of a two-step process, actually: first I have to go "hmm, what should the story be here?" and figure it out in advance, and then when I'm actually dancing it I can feel it. The contribution of my "self" and my unique artistic voice is deciding which stories I want to tell in the first place. But that's a deliberate process that involves some searching around and some trial and error in front of the mirror, not just shutting up my head and listening to what my heart is telling me or anything remotely like that.

And yes, for goodness' sake, of course expressiveness can be learned. Don't give up on the introverts in your life! We can turn out to be pretty darn good once we figure it out!

[Nybz]

Don't give up on the introverts in your life! We can turn out to be pretty darn good once we figure it out!

I like this line :cool:

[Joy In Motion]

I think introversion is also situational. I consider myself a conditional introvert. I am very shy when people first get to know me, but once I feel that there is trust in a relationship I can be pretty social and open. I am also extroverted, of course, as an instructor. I find that teaching is an outlet for me when it comes to being social, but as soon as I'm done I'm ready to be alone for a while or with someone I feel very comfortable around. It actually surprises many people who don't know me extremely well when they discover I'm an instructor. But when they see me in class, they see that switch I make from one mode to the other. It's almost like I have two different personalities in that sense. With dancing it's the same way. A lot of people form a first impression of me and then see something completely different and unexpected when I start dancing. Is it that I have different sides of me, or just that I feel comfortable with expression only in certain contexts? And perhaps we are all like this, never completely one thing or the other but a mix of everything based on various factors. For example, I wonder if you can really call someone generous as an overall statement, because I find that people are generous in different ways. Someone can be very generous with their time but very stingy with money. Sometimes those black and white categories can be helpful to provide us with common definitions for discussion, but most often the answers lie in the various shades of gray.

Very interesting. I have very much enjoyed this thread as well. I found TAK's perspective as a psychology student very interesting, especially when it comes to how flexible we really are. Choices choices... Dance definitely opens up so many doors, limited only by our imagination and determination.

[Joy In Motion]

I've been lurking for a while, and this thread inspired me to register. Hi, everyone!

I know for myself the process I need to go through to be able to project a performance, and it's all about being confident that I know what I'm doing, that it's fully in my body, and that I can trust my partner to be there with me. In that situation, I can relax into the dance and let it flow out of me and connect with an audience. But no way can I sell something I'm not secure in. I really appreciate the teachers in this thread who recognize the different routes that their students have to take to get to expression through dance.

Welcome, bia, and great first post! I'm glad you found a discussion that resonated with you; I know this one fascinates me as well and there have been so many great contributions from a variety of people.

I think you touched on some very great ideas... confidence, connection with your body, trust in your partner, relaxation, understanding, different journeys...

[latingal]

Welcome to DF bia!

[samina]

welcome to DF, bia!
The discussion of getting reserved dancers to reveal themselves through dance interests me, since that's me -- definitely an introvert. Part of the connection between character and dance is in the style that suits an individual, as Peaches pointed out. For me, it's standard.

i am by nature the same, bia. creatively reserved, belied by my sociability.

But no way can I sell something I'm not secure in.
i can name that tune in no notes, as they say.

fwiw, liberating my body from hindrances and focusing on sensation has made all the difference in the world for me. when you are physically free and focusing only on what you feel...the rest comes without thinking, and very pleasurably. :)

[Light Sleeper]

As a psychology graduate student, I would add to this that many psychologists think "personality" is actually much less important and influential than most people tend to assume. Yes, there are systematic differences, but people are surprisingly flexible and plastic. I personally believe this is true in dancing as well as in life more generally.



This is interesting, do you have any articles that you can reference? Thanks.

[TAK]

This is interesting, do you have any articles that you can reference? Thanks.

Walter Mischel wrote some influential articles on this, e.g. 1982 Psych Review with Philip Peake. More recently, Lee Ross and Richard Nisbett have written about it, e.g. in their wonderful 1991 book "The Person and the Situation."

It's been an issue in the literature for a long time, so if you put "person situation social psychology" into Google Scholar and look at citation counts you can find some interesting stuff.

[opendoor]

.. think "personality" is actually much less important

Think the life career may sometimes be more important than the personality. Most people I know started TA in a very special moment of their life (and so did I). That is no trivial coincidence, isn´t it?

[Steve Pastor]

Late to the discussion because I was away, but African dance is of interest to me. I'll be picking up African Rhythm and African Sensibility tomorrow.
Meanwhile consider the following...

Early commentors on dance from sub-Saharan Africa consistently commented on the absence of close couple dancing, and such dancing was thought to be immoral in many traditional African societies.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_dance#cite_note-Steppin_1996._page_16-11) In all the vast riches of sub Saharan African dance heritage there seems to be no evidence for sustained one on one male female partnering anywhere before the late colonial era, when it was apparently considered in distinctly poor taste.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_dance#cite_note-15)

Rather than emphasizing individual talent, Yoruba dancers and drummers express communal desires, values, and collective creativity. The drumming represents an underlying linguistic text that guides the dancing performance. However, the majority of meaning comes from the nonverbal cues and metalanguage of the performers. The spontaneity of these performances creates the impression of an extemporaneous speech. This characteristic should not, however, be confused with improvisation, which emphasizes the individual and bolsters her or his ego.

Townships created during the colonial period removed people, and their dance, from the traditional environment. Beer halls became community centers of sorts with drinking socializing, and dancing. Men still played the ngomas and the mukwas, but the dance took on sexual emphasis becoming something akin to bumping and grinding, almost violent in its urgency. Traditional dance clubs were created to protect the "purity" of the traditional dance and to regulate the dancers and musicians who performed on special occasions.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_dance#cite_note-19)

And, regarding the "sexualization" of dance, let's not forget Bob Fosse.

Has anyone else seen the film "Rize"? The dancers there state that there is nothing sexual about what they do.

[Joy In Motion]

Late to the discussion because I was away, but African dance is of interest to me. I'll be picking up African Rhythm and African Sensibility tomorrow.
Meanwhile consider the following...

Early commentors on dance from sub-Saharan Africa consistently commented on the absence of close couple dancing, and such dancing was thought to be immoral in many traditional African societies.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_dance#cite_note-Steppin_1996._page_16-11) In all the vast riches of sub Saharan African dance heritage there seems to be no evidence for sustained one on one male female partnering anywhere before the late colonial era, when it was apparently considered in distinctly poor taste.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_dance#cite_note-15)

Rather than emphasizing individual talent, Yoruba dancers and drummers express communal desires, values, and collective creativity. The drumming represents an underlying linguistic text that guides the dancing performance. However, the majority of meaning comes from the nonverbal cues and metalanguage of the performers. The spontaneity of these performances creates the impression of an extemporaneous speech. This characteristic should not, however, be confused with improvisation, which emphasizes the individual and bolsters her or his ego.

Townships created during the colonial period removed people, and their dance, from the traditional environment. Beer halls became community centers of sorts with drinking socializing, and dancing. Men still played the ngomas and the mukwas, but the dance took on sexual emphasis becoming something akin to bumping and grinding, almost violent in its urgency. Traditional dance clubs were created to protect the "purity" of the traditional dance and to regulate the dancers and musicians who performed on special occasions.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_dance#cite_note-19)

And, regarding the "sexualization" of dance, let's not forget Bob Fosse.

Has anyone else seen the film "Rize"? The dancers there state that there is nothing sexual about what they do.

Steve, I think you will really enjoy African Rhythm and African Sensibility, so I'm glad to hear you will be picking it up soon. If anyone is interested, we could start a thread based on a reading of the book and a discussion on its themes. Sort of a Dance Forums book club. If this is of interest to anyone, let me know. Like I wrote before, I found so much food for thought in there and would love to hear what others think about his experiences and interpretations.