Dancing in Contact with New Students

[DanceMentor]

I was wondering what general rules you think would apply when showing students to dance in contact for the smooth dances. Having done it so much I don't really think much of it, but I know some people might feel uncomfortable. Also, from a learning standpoint, there progress may be slowed if you try to dance in contact before they move well. Any advice?

[dancin_feet]

I have never had a problem with this, though I can see where some students would be very uncomfortable. My personal space goes down to pretty much zero when I'm dancing! :shock: Interested to hear from a teaching veiwpoint how the discomfort is overcome.

[Chris Stratton]

As my dancing progressed, I went from beinging 'wierded out' by body contact, to considering it a technical necessity, to now actually finding myself trying to hold partners further away.

Body contact is very much 'in' here in Boston, but the thing is that nobody can quite pull it off. Not the top amatuers, who achieve it at the cost of lower back arch. Not the pros - recently watched someone stress it to students, then turn around and demonstrate material with a pro partner while exhibiting an inch or two of variable buffer. And certainly not the pro-am students who take the charge to park their belly on the man literally - when they have neither the upper back poise nor foot usage to enable moving in such a position.

I didn't really get the full sense of how limiting this can be until I saw Boston from the outside after training elsewhere and changing my own habits. I was watching comparable level couples practice right before a comp, and it was suddenly very obvious that a major limitation on the smoothness of their dancing was that the partners were constantly in each other's way.

I'd rather see people work on dancing over their own feet, find a good posture and frame consistent with their current physical capabilities, and learn to maintain a hold throughout inside partner, outside partner, and promenade positions. Get that and the bodies will converge with time - not to 'glue' but to a slight breathing buffer small enough that 'daylight' is unlikley.

[ShyDancer]

was wondering what general rules you think would apply when showing students to dance in contact for the smooth dances. Having done it so much I don't really think much of it, but I know some people might feel uncomfortable.

I think you have to take it on a student by student basis. Most times you can sense if they are uncomfortable, they get all stiff and rigid and will probably lean away from you.
Also depends on what level they are at, I know beginners wont be in much body contact but there is some there and going back on my own experience I would get very nervous being so close to my teacher That wore off with time, and the same sort of thing would apply to a student you never had before, I think there is a big jump from trying to teach body contact as opposed to social dancing body contact.
When dancing socially its more your footwork that you are concerned with, but standing there and having the student concentrate on making the contact would probably be a little unnerving for some (me included!)

Also, from a learning standpoint, there progress may be slowed if you try to dance in contact before they move well. Any advice?


Id probably say work on the basics until they get comfortable being around you, as the time goes by they will loosen up and the body contact will be so much less an issue than if you tried teaching it straight away.
Thats how I was taught, my teacher waited a good 2 months before making any body contact with anyone in my class, by that stage we were comfortable aroud him and it was only mild suprise when he started showing us the correct frame/posture required.

[cl5814]

The first body contact lesson for me was a bit nerve racking. It sort of caught me by surprise. As i have said in another thread, so far i loose control over my feet when in close contact. As long as i have a little squeeze of light in between us, i am fine.
Actually i find it easier to dance closer with a stranger (ok, this is relative) on the dance floor than my teacher. I have too much pressure on me to get it right with the teacher, but with a stranger so what if i don't quite do it right yet.

[Larinda McRaven]

I say I agree with much of what Chris said. If you put all of the parts together correctly, body contact will just happen.

I introduce it to students right away, from the first day. I tell them that we will be working towards it all the time, just like one might demontrate any other peice of information, that you don't expect them to get right away. But I never make contact happen, I let contact happen.

[Chris Stratton]

Yes, what bothers me is when someone goes inside their frame in an attempt to enforce contact. If the frame is right I don't really pay much attention to if the bodies are 0,1,2 inches away. But if people are trained to depend on _feeling_ body contact (as many here unfortunately are) they can be very hard to dance with when until they outgrow the tendancy to create it at the cost of everything else.

Frankly, having someone project herself inside a weak frame in order to stick to me _does_ feel like a uncomfortable loss of personal space.

[msc]

For me, the hardest aspect of maintaining body contact is staying forward poised through the hips while backing up. The urge to pull the hips back to power the move is tough to overcome. That, and really twisty moves like the wing.

[Purr]

Body contact, or closed dance position, was forbidden at a previous studio that I took lessons from. I don't know the reason why, as one of the owners at one time was a former competitive professional in smooth dancing.

[Kitty]

As my dancing progressed, I went from beinging 'wierded out' by body contact, to considering it a technical necessity, to now actually finding myself trying to hold partners further away.
I'd rather see people work on dancing over their own feet, find a good posture and frame consistent with their current physical capabilities, and learn to maintain a hold throughout inside partner, outside partner, and promenade positions. Get that and the bodies will converge with time - not to 'glue' but to a slight breathing buffer small enough that 'daylight' is unlikley.

This spring I was dancing further away from my partners (I had 2) and a little closer (like 1 or two inches apart) with the more advanced guys on the team. I was stressing posture and frame most.

When I recently started practicing (I only was dancing socially with him before) with my boyfriend, he pulled me closer to him. In general I felt too much of pressure on my back from his right arm, as if he was pulling me inside all the time. He was in turn complaining that I was not giving him enough "resistance" with my back. Also he insisted on body contact and made me stand not parallel to him as I used to, but at an angle.

I felt this position was not comfortable for me, however now (4 weeks later) I can't imaging dancing in the position in which I used to dance before. I felt secure about correctness of my smooth/standard dancing before, but now I'm afraid I'd learn something the way that would damage my technique.

As I understand moving me even more to the side and having me stand at an angle moves me out of the leader's way and allows him to move more freely in the position with body contact. On the other hand, is this entirely correct, or is it a compromise between using right technique and not being able to move well in that position yet? And can the attempts to dance with me in that position without teacher's supervision damage my technique or frame or posture (given that he claims that he does know what he is doing, and he is just trying to dance with me in the way our coach taught him when he took private lessons in standard)?

Or another question: how early do you think in her/his dancing can (should) the closed position be introduced to a student to allow for the development of all those other things (frame, movement, posture, balance) that Chris and Larinda were talking about? So when is it not too early?

[Chris Stratton]

Having the lady angled on the man's side rather than simple slid over and parallel tends to be a stylistic choice. Personally, I think it works better for larger men and that thin to average people look better parallel - but that's just my preference at this point in my training.

But while I prefer holding a partner parallel to me or at a slightly more open angle, one thing that will drive me absolutely crazy is if the angle becomes less than parallel - I simply cannot stand having her more closed on my left/her right than on the other side. I know sometimes I've brought my right hand in further hoping that would rotate her right shoulder out - the man has very little way to directly push the lady away. But that can become counterproductive if the lady decides to put her right shoulder in further in order to push her left shoulder - and my hand - back to a comfortable distance.

As for when to move to (or nearly to) body contact - I could say that one college program coach with a lot of strong couples isn't pushing it even as her students make silver finals and start to progress in gold. But I rather suspect that it will just come on its own when the dance skills are ready to support it.

[Larinda McRaven]

I have always heard and therefore taught that parallel vs angle was dependant on the size relationship of a couple. A larger taller man with a smaller girl, requires the girl to be further out on the angle so she can actually be seen. A more even height couple, the lady can be more parallel and in front and not be overshadowed by the man. So yeah this seems to be a stylist choice.

[spatten]

Kitty,

This is what I feel about the dance hold for standard, but it is only my interpretation after about 3-4 years of lessons.

We were just discussing how far the lady should be to the side of the man in a thread called "Rereading Alex Moore's Ballrom Dancing". You can read my opinion there. Suffice it to say the lady is definately on the man's right side. I don't think she has to be further right then the amount required to develop four independant tracks for the feet. You will probably have to have a good coach to tell you wether it looks right or not. I should point out that Tango usually has the lady even further right than the other dances.


Does the lady stand at an angle to the man? Well, yes and no. I think the ladies lower body needs to be mostly parallel to the man. If the man and womans feet are not on the same angle I think that would cause a problem. However, I don't believe the upper body should be parallel. The lady should rotate her right side back, again the amount will have to be seen to be analyzed. This will allow you to contact better through the curvature of your bodies than if your top was strictly parallel to the man. Some of this is probably dependant on the shapes of the couple.

It is my perception that even if you continue your dancing for 10 more years you will still be adjusting and improving your topline. So, while yes you probably could damage your technique - it probably isn't gonna hurt you in the long run. Understanding more about how the hold works will be to your benefit. I would recommend having a coach work on your frame when you get around to it. Everything starts from there - and if you are concerned then maybe you have a reason to check it out.

Lastly, from what I remember you having said about your boyfriend - he probably still has a lot to learn about the frame (most of us do) so don't feel like you have to do it his way if it doesn't feel right.

Scott

[Kitty]

Having the lady angled on the man's side rather than simple slid over and parallel tends to be a stylistic choice.

He says it helps him move though - because it moves me out of his way. We are probably doing something wrong:-).
Isn't it funny how ladies are always so twisted:-)? Feet face one way, hips another, chest another, and head looks some totally different direction. Crazy:-):-):-).

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Or another question: how early do you think in her/his dancing can (should) the closed position be introduced to a student to allow for the development of all those other things (frame, movement, posture, balance) that Chris and Larinda were talking about? So when is it not too early?
Would anyone care to say when they were introduced to contact? And is dancing without contact an unforgivable sin in bronze level standard events?

[etp777]

pro has been slowly bringing us clsoer together and more contact, but still definitely not used to it (10 months in, one p rivate a week). As you might guess, more comfortable with any contact with pro than with other dancers I might dance with.

I know a lot of amateurs, at least the women who are students of one pro in particular, who've been dancing a shorter time but dance more in contact. Not sure if ti's easier as a follow, or if I'm just slow. :)

[tangotime]

Would anyone care to say when they were introduced to contact? And is dancing without contact an unforgivable sin in bronze level standard events?


reference my post on this site .

[tangotime]

pro has been slowly bringing us clsoer together and more contact, but still definitely not used to it (10 months in, one p rivate a week). As you might guess, more comfortable with any contact with pro than with other dancers I might dance with.

I know a lot of amateurs, at least the women who are students of one pro in particular, who've been dancing a shorter time but dance more in contact. Not sure if ti's easier as a follow, or if I'm just slow. :)


The " comfort " zone, will be different for each and all.

Again , I refer you to my other post .

[fascination]

TC...for what it is worth...standard was my 2nd style (smooth was first) about six months in to private lessons at 2 2hour lessons a week we began standard routines... we danced them for about 3-4 months before doing them in contact...which never bothered me...sometimes was very difficult but never unpleasant

[Sagitta]

I find it odd when I dance with a person who is used to it and does so...but I'm not uncomfortable with it. It does make dancinga little different from what I am used to in terms of connection and lead/follow technique...

[danceronice]

I remember a moment of awkwardness when my first pro introduced closed hold, which he had to do rather quickly as my first comp was coming up (there was definitely a "Wait, you want my hips WHERE?" moment), but honestly, now when I'm dancing Smooth, I generally like closed hold better than a distanced practice hold. It makes following much easier.

Note that's with the pros. Social dancing, I'm never quite comfortable, whichever the lead choses to do (again, with obvious exceptions like cantskiforlife, where I know and trust the leader.)

[atk]

Would anyone care to say when they were introduced to contact? And is dancing without contact an unforgivable sin in bronze level standard events?


I started dancing about 3-1/2 years ago (actually, I started ballroom dancing 3-1/2 years ago; I had never danced, previously, and do not know how to dance outside ballroom). While I was in bronze 2, some of the followers at social dances would force themselves into body contact. I didn't know how to dance in body contact, and I was completely weirded out by being that close - I'm shy, and have learned that there are certain parts of a girl that I'm not supposed to be touching without specific permission and relationship.

As Chris posted earlier in this thread, its very hard to push a woman away. If she wants to be close, she'll be close, so I just lived with it. I figured that, if she was advanced enough to dance in body contact, she'd be advanced enough to realize that I wasn't advanced enough to dance in contact, and would move away (though nobody ever did). I also figure(d) that, if she's gonna dance a particular way, be it intentional or unintentional, then that's up to her. If she wants to dance in body contact with someone who is obviously not capable of doing so, I'm not gonna stop her.

When I got into bronze 3, the teachers wanted us to dance closer - we didn't have to dance in body contact, but we needed to be closer in order to properly perform the technique necessary for various patterns. Two people at my studio tried to dance very close with me. One is in her 60's - dancing in body contact with her felt like hugging my grandmother, so I was okay with it. The other follower was 17; I was 27 at the time. And she had... large tracts of land. Very large tracts. With her, I was completely uncomfortable. I tried desperately to not touch her chest with mine - I figured that I had absolutely no business touching her chest, particularly as she's 10 years younger than I. When I would accidentally bump into her, I would curl away from her, hollowing myself out, and probably making myself very uncomfortable with her.

As I progressed through bronze and into silver, my teacher pointed out how to dance in body contact, what was necessary for me to give my partner, was necessary for my partner to give me, and how it enabled my parter to do things that would otherwise not be possible. My teacher would sometimes dance in body contact with me, as would teachers at social events. I was finally getting comfortable with dancing in contact with some of those teachers.

Now, I've gotten comfortable with dancing in body contact - but only if both my follower and myself maintain decent posture, poise, connection, etc. If the follower doesn't have lots of stuff going right, or if I'm tired, I'd far rather dance with space between us than to dance in contact. If both myself and my partner are properly accommodating each other, it can be very nice to be in body contact. If we're not both able to accommodate each other, then I'd prefer not to dance in body contact.

[etp777]

hahaha, I have to laugh at that atk, becuase you have described exactly how I currently feel, at point where I don't feel right (or whatever) touching pro, or certian people at the studio. Had this discussion with a friend who's gone from student to pro, and really moved forward a lot on close contact. Was dancing with her after she started working as pro at her new studio, and her form and contact was completely differnent. Still not used to it. :)

[atk]

hahaha, I have to laugh at that atk, becuase you have described exactly how I currently feel, at point where I don't feel right (or whatever) touching pro, or certian people at the studio. Had this discussion with a friend who's gone from student to pro, and really moved forward a lot on close contact. Was dancing with her after she started working as pro at her new studio, and her form and contact was completely differnent. Still not used to it. :)


etp777,

I think that the inability to perform particular patterns without being close i what really makes it easier to move toward dancing in body contact. Like a natural spin turn: you can do it with some space between the partners, but, if you're too far apart, the follower will wind up on your left. Similarly, I don't know how one could do pivots with any significant space in between.

It seems to me that, if you just try to do patterns correctly, you'll wind up close ot your partner, through no intentional adjustment by either of you. And it feels so much better to do things correctly that it's not so important that you're so close.

[etp777]

Considering pivots are one of things I'm having big trouble with right now, sure you're probbably right.

My problems with close contact have nothing to do with the dancing itself, and everything to do with fact that pro is a very attractive woman, and already had crushes on a couple other pros (not mine, but other teachers at other studios who I'm friends with) since I entered the "ballroom world". :) After all the discussions we've had on people having crushes on their teacher, I am extremely paranoid about that.

In other words, I just need to get over myself. :D

ALways appreciate the correction/suggestion/push though. :) Thanks

[Peaches]

When I first started dancing I was learning purely social stuff--smooth--and my teacher did not use body contact. A good thing, b/c when I first started I had real issues with being touched at all--body contact would have been just one more thing for me to be uncomfortable with. Now he will use it, but it's still the exception rather than the rule. He doesn't really teach with it, but it sometimes just happens.

When I started learning Standard (from a different teacher), he started out with body contact from day 1. While the mechanics of everything were/are an absolute !@#$#, the actual fact of the contact didn't faze me at all. My mind is on so many other things beside what is touching where that I don't notice anything.

Of course, I started learning Standard from the same teacher I have for AT. I'm used to dancing AT, and in close embrace, with him so there was practically no part of me that he hadn't "touched" before. The fact that my--tracts of land--are in contact with my leader's chest doesn't really even register. When I started learning AT, I started in close embrace from Day 1, about 10 minutes into the first lesson. That was a bit harder to get used to, but after about 30 minutes my mind was occupied with other things.

Oddly, the one thing that I still have issues with isn't body contact, but a leader's hand on the back of my neck (for dips). That still makes me extremely uncomfortable.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

No more contact! (for now, that is) I've been trying to dance in contact for about 2 months now. 3, if you include my experiences as a follower. It felt pretty horrible when I posted about a month ago. It's improved a bit since then, but still unpleasant. It was as if there were a brick wall in front of me no matter how hard I pushed. Recently, I even strained a calf muscle trying to drive harder. Anyway, we finally got the teacher to look at it and he said that we're trying way too hard to glue ourselves to each other. He said that we should each be dancing our own bodies - that we should work on synchronizing our movement, and then contact would happen. So we've started dancing with a few inches of separation and wow - the movement feels so much better. It's like now we can fly. We're still dancing together - just not touching. I think I'll have to be careful about picking up bad habits like putting my body in places incompatible with contact. I've already got enough issues with promenade and outside partner. But for now - freeeeeeedom!!!! :banana: