Tails or "Dokman's"

[DanceMentor]

I noticed tails were required for adult novice, pre-champ and champ. If a Tuxedo jacket (made for dance) is worn in Novice or Pre-Champ, what do you think would be the consequences?
(this is for the Southeaster Regionals)

[Chris Stratton]

If you read the fine print, a tailsuit is not required, because you are always allowed to wear the costume of a more restricted division.

The question will be if you should wear the tuxedo jacket, or go with something like a black cardigan that might better preserve body lines. That will depend a lot on how well the tuxedo jacket fits, and on what you want to show in your dancing. What your partner will be wearing could also be a factor.

I've also heard rumors that the southeast regional tends to be a bit more formal than average even into the audience , so that might also point towards the tuxedo jacket.

[DanceMentor]

Ok, well that's a relief to know the Tuxedo (no tails) is okay.
Thanks for your reply.

[JANATHOME]

We dance Sr 1 novice and of all the times we have done this event I dont remember many if any of the men wearing tails.

[White Chacha]

All that said, I've heard some judges don't care for the jacket look.

How commonly are they worn (in lieu of tails) in amateur, professional, and proam competitions? The most recent comp video I've seen was from the Comcast broadcast of the Cherry Hill comp this year. Don't recall seeing any of the mail professional leaders wearing jackets.

[Laura]

Don't recall seeing any of the mail professional leaders wearing jackets.
It's becoming very common in Smooth (Amateur and also Pro), and in Pro/Am (Standard and Smooth).

[tangotime]

Gradually ( not before time ) returning to a past era .

[DanceMentor]

I actually plan to get tails again for my next outfit, but right now my Tuxedo jacket is MUCH better than my tails, so I just wanted to make sure it was okay.

[Larinda McRaven]

I have not seen tails in Pro Smooth for years. The lst time my ex wore his tails we were scolded for looking out of style, and that was about 5 years ago. The pro Smooth division is experimenting with various artistic cuts of the jacket. Very very long (ala Luca Baricchi), Nehru style, diagonal breast, morning coat, tightfitting almost shirtish, bell sleeves, frog closures, black jacket with grey pants, smoking jacket with a sash....

I only know of one pro who wear tails for his pro-am smooth. And the arms are missing so it is more of a vest/tails combo.

The only place I see pros wearing tails anymore is in high level pro-am Standard, not syllabus (Unless it is also a teacher who will be dancing later on at the high level pro-am. But all of the syllabus teachers are wearing jackets). Or in the Pro Standard, and still there only 50 percent.

Funny enough the am boys of pro-am are wearing tails. And I encourage my guys to do so. Don't know why, maybe because I like them to show their dedication and respect to the old tradition, and then get funky and fun with the cut of their smooth jackets.

[Chris Stratton]

Or in the Pro Standard, and still there only 50 percent.

?

[Laura]

Funny enough the am boys of pro-am are wearing tails. And I encourage my guys to do so. Don't know why, maybe because I like them to show their dedication and respect to the old tradition, and then get funky and fun with the cut of their smooth jackets.
This makes sense, especially if any of them end up with an amateur partner for Standard -- then they'll be all set with their tailcoats right away. I very rarely see amateur men doing Standard in anything other than a tail suit. (Well, obvious exceptions are Syllabus, where tail suits are not allowed, and men in Novice who don't have their tail suits yet. But in Pre-Championship and Championship, it's tail suits all the way.)

[White Chacha]

...I only know of one pro who wear tails for his pro-am smooth. And the arms are missing so it is more of a vest/tails combo.
...

Yuck. I've seen the jacket style without sleeves and don't like the look at all. I do like the look of a well tailored jacket, though not the long jacket/coat thing Mr Baricchi has worn. Of course the way he dances, he can wear anything he likes; who am I to say? ;-)

[etp777]

I agree, NOT a fan of the sleeveless jacket look.

[Chris Stratton]

As a look, no. But I have seen a tailored vest and a shirt with black sleeves used as a remarkably effective mock tailsuit... You almost have to be behind the guy to realize there's something missing.

[etp777]

Well yeah, the key is well-fitted. which seems rarely to ever be the case. Even my own vest doesn't fit right now and would look horrible if I wore it (though still better than some I saw at the july FA nationals :) ).

[Joe]

?
+1

[Cal]

My pro competes Standard and recently started Smooth - both pro and pro-am. He wears his tailsuit for all of his Standard events, and wears a double-breasted tuxedo jacket for all of his Smooth events. With the tuxedo jacket he wears a black satin tie - nothing colored, nothing rhinestoned, and I don't think he'd even consider wearing a bowtie.

I've got to say, in his tailsuit, he's just another good-looking guy in tails; in his tuxedo jacket - the guy looks really, really SHARP!

If I were to take the trouble to add a memorable signature line to my posts, I'd plagiarize from Fascination and put in that there's nothing more attractive than a man with a number pinned to his tailsuit - or to his tuxedo jacket.

[Chris Stratton]

I've got to say, in his tailsuit, he's just another good-looking guy in tails; in his tuxedo jacket - the guy looks really, really SHARP!

Sure, standing around.

But even on someone like Markus Hilton or Chris Hawkins, the longer tuxedo jacket just doesn't work as well for the body postures common in standard today. You see them in a great line... with a nice big wrinkle across their lower back. A tailsuit works better, because the part of it that conforms to the body is actually much shorter.

[Larinda McRaven]

?

In the pro events it is almost an even split between the tails and jackets. Except at MAJOR events where it gets tail heavy again.

[Chris Stratton]

In the pro events it is almost an even split between the tails and jackets.

Maybe some low level guys who don't own them or don't take themselves seriously. Maybe someone higher level at a little comp where they want to announce that they don't take the event seriously. But not anybody real for any real competition.

Which real dancer have you seen without a tailsuit in the standard event at a real competition?

Even Dockman went back after his experiment, didn't he?

[Larinda McRaven]

No way.

At least, not real dancers in real comps.

I'm trying to think... Manhattan, perhaps someone who got cut in the first round and didn't own a tailsuit, but nobody serious. Maybe someone at a provincial little afair where they want to announce that they aren't taking it seriously. But not for anything serious.

Which real dancer have you seen without a tailsuit in the standard event at a real competition?

Even Dockman went back after his experiment, didn't he?

Well lets see, in the past few months alone I have been to Constitution, Cleveland, Capital, USDC, Nevada Star, Volunteer...
I'd hardly say these are not REAL competitions... and I am not blind.

[Larinda McRaven]

Speaking of Dockman, he is not exactly a US dancer... and since the OP is American and asked about the USABDA competitions in the US, then I assume the style trends last week at the International are not in question.

[Chris Stratton]

If the guys aren't wearing their suits, it says that they don't believe those to be real competition where they need to be at their absolute best, instead it says they are just another day at the office so to speak. But that is their opinion not mine - you wouldn't see me there in anything else.

[Larinda McRaven]

If the guys aren't wearing their suits, it says that they don't believe those to be real competition. But that is there opinion not mine - you wouldn't see me there in anything else.

No this is obviously your opinion since they have not said it out loud, you have. I am happy that you would only wear tails. It obviously speaks volumes about your dedication to your competitions. And when you step on the pro floor I will take your opinion as "what the pros do and think."

Yet You can hardly speak for ALL, or any, of the Professional dancers in the US.

[Chris Stratton]

If they feel they do not have to be at their best for an event, that speaks volumes about how they feel about it...

If they felt that something other than tails represented their best, then they'd wear the something else at major events too.

[Larinda McRaven]

So if I buck the trend and wear standard court shoes instead of my smooth shoes I am not taking the competition or myself seriously? If I decided to not tan. Yet at the height of my professional career I went for 6 months without tanning. I went back to it because I did not like the look of it, not because I thought it made me less serious. I bucked every judge and coach that chastised me for it, and I still won, with pride.

Come on looks and styles are changing. And tailsuits represent the tradition. Yet, thank goodness people are willing to experiment change and find themselves instead of looking like cookie cutter christmas tree onrnaments. And they are still pros and they can still win. And I doubt anyone walks on the floor as if they just rolled out of bed and onto the practice floor, just because they chose this jacket vs that one.

[Chris Stratton]

So if I buck the trend and wear standard court shoes instead of my smooth shoes I am not taking the competition or myself seriously?

No, you are announcing that you are more interested in creating outstanding quality of movement than in pointing your feet during lines...

If I decided to not tan.

that the dyeing oneself brown fad is getting a little silly

And tailsuits represent the tradition.

Tradition of generations, not just a decade or two. But more than that, they are by far the most practical thing yet invented for standard dancing.

Yet, thank goodness people are willing to experiment change and find themselves instead of looking like cookie cutter christmas tree onrnaments.

But not when it really counts... even Dockman replaced his business suit with tails for the evening rounds. (Arguably, he was the one being proper... we have to imagine it's evening when we wear our tails for a daytime event, though that imagination seems built in to the whole idea of ballroom)

[Chris Stratton]

Now returning for a minute to the actual topic of the thread... there was a choice to be made between a dance tuxedo and something else, for an event of a level where either would be considered proper.

The tuxedo is more formal. It has the weight of tradition and social elegance, and even though its requirement for syllabus events is now but a memory, remains a popular choice amongst the more seasoned amateur gentlemen.

On the other hand, sweaters and well tailored vests share the tailtsuits ability to fit a body in more dynamic dance action. For both reasons of economy as well as athleticism, these are popular choices with younger amateur gentlemen, who when ready to invest will then proceed directly to a tailsuit.

[Larinda McRaven]

No, you are announcing that you are more interested in creating outstanding quality of movement than in pointing your feet during lines...
or perhaps with a smooth shoe I have enough quality and strength in my ankle not to have to rely on a cement shoe to show me how to roll properly through my foot. And I think that the standard shoe actually is cleaner looking than the strappy smooth shoes that break the line.

that the dyeing oneself brown fad is getting a little silly
I agree.

Tradition of generations, not just a decade or two. But more than that, they are by far the most practical thing yet invented for standard dancing.
Yes and even my Dad says, "thank god each generation is smarter than the last, or you'd be pumping your water by hand from the well out back"

Practical... I don't know, wearing a huge wet smelly wool suit is far from practical.

And if you really need tails to disguise bad leg lines and a butt that breaks and sticks out, knock yourself out.

Court shoes and mens standard shoes with no flex are designed to MAKE someones foot roll properly. Tails are padded and hung just so to hide flaws in the back and arms. Even floats on the women are there to disguise bad arm lines. Long swishy dress that touch the floor hide the girls feet very well.

The freedom of a vest or jacket or even smooth shoes makes one accountable for their lines and actions. And perhaps that is why Smooth dancers are criticized for being less technical, because we are not hiding behind our costumes. We are there with it all hanging out for everyone to see and critique.

[Angelo]

or perhaps with a smooth shoe I have enough quality and strength in my ankle not to have to rely on a cement shoe to show me how to roll properly through my foot. And I think that the standard shoe actually is cleaner looking than the strappy smooth shoes that break the line.


Practical... I don't know, wearing a huge wet smelly wool suit is far from practical.

And if you really need tails to disguise bad leg lines and a butt that breaks and sticks out, knock yourself out.

Court shoes and mens standard shoes with no flex are designed to MAKE someones foot roll properly. Tails are padded and hung just so to hide flaws in the back and arms. Even floats on the women are there to disguise bad arm lines. Long swishy dress that touch the floor hide the girls feet very well.

The freedom of a vest or jacket or even smooth shoes makes one accountable for their lines and actions. And perhaps that is why Smooth dancers are criticized for being less technical, because we are not hiding behind our costumes. We are there with it all hanging out for everyone to see and critique.


:applause::applause::applause::applause:

[Chris Stratton]

Practical... I don't know, wearing a huge wet smelly wool suit is far from practical.

Except that a tailsuit is by far the smallest of any of the jackets commonly worn.

Don't let the tails fool you... it's really quite short.

Frock coats are obviously a lot more coverage, and while commonly believed to be otherwise, when you really look at it, tuxedo jackets cover and constrain more as well.

And if you really need tails to disguise bad leg lines and a butt that breaks and sticks out, knock yourself out.

Their true purpose is to show movement. The auxiliary purpose is to let the body of the suit be extremely short (originally for riding a horse, now for moving) without being what a previous generation would have considered indecent.

Court shoes and mens standard shoes with no flex are designed to MAKE someones foot roll properly.

The necessary stiffness is that which is required to stabilize the heel height. For men's standard shoes, that's low enough that the requirement is practically nill, and reflects a lot of the shoes now on the market. For women's, it's a different story. Both genders have been rather unispiring of late in terms of widespread disinterest in achieving and benefiting from full foot action, but it shows more on the ladies, because proportions and postures being what they are, it interferes more with the flow of a forward feather than a backwards one.

Tails are padded and hung just so to hide flaws in the back and arms.

They may be, but they do not have to be.

Even floats on the women are there to disguise bad arm lines.

Or accentuate good ones.

And perhaps that is why Smooth dancers are criticized for being less technical, because we are not hiding behind our costumes. We are there with it all hanging out for everyone to see and critique.

I don't believe there are any serious standard dancers who have not been seen doing shows in alternate costumes. Most have recorded teaching presentations in what are essentially practical street clothes. We've seen, and we know.

[Angelo]

Their true purpose is to show movement.


I have a hard time beleiving this is the true underlying purpose. I can however understand it being a secondary purpose that is constrained by the primary purpose which is more aesthetic tradition than anything else.

[DanceMentor]

I know its nice, but stop fighting over my tail. :)

[White Chacha]

Ah, comic relief at last :-)

[madmaximus]

Good design endures.
One might consider the tailsuit to be symbolic of a bygone era, but I wouldn't discard it as an anachronism just yet.
After all, it has survived this far.

National costumes aside, there are very very very few things that make a gentleman look as elegant as a tailsuit.

True, a well-made tailsuit can work as effective camoflage, it is also unforgiving of bad posture.
But done right, it presents the gentleman in the most flattering proportions, and makes him look lean and symmetric (a highly desirable trait in the animal kingdom).

Of course, there can be a downside too: an international adjudicator I know looks at the tail during a hover corte, when it should drape strait; because if crossed or spread it indicates forward or backward lean--bad.

There are other advantages of course.
There is the (secondary) reason the tail tips are loaded with lead.
No sensible couple will come near you when you're doing standing spins--too painful.

I've danced in a nehru-style coat, and for me, it was a bad caliente experience.
IMO it looks 60's and ridiculously dated.

Waistlines rise and fall, lapels go wide and thin.
But good STYLE endures.
Give me a well-tailored tailsuit any day.





m

[Laura]

National costumes aside, there are very very very few things that make a gentleman look as elegant as a tailsuit.
In a away, one could think of the tailsuit as being the national costume of the English. Like, The Scottish have their kilts, and the English have their tailsuits.

[Joe]

Chris is right--the tailsuit probably has the same amount of fabric as a tuxedo jacket, and less than a frock coat. The front is much shorter than any other type of jacket, which is one reason that the other jackets cause the crease/bunching in the back when the body is flexed. Well-made tails also actually have very little padding. There's some interfacing in the front, and a little in the shoulders, just to keep them from wrinkling.

[JoepiE]

Hi ballroom gents,

I you could buy a brand new suit right now, would you choose the good-old tailsuit or the new jacket suit (or Dokman's)

I myself have a jacket suit for some time now and will never go back to the IMO old fashioned tailsuit, but love to here your opinions and thought through reasons to stick with the tails.

[NonieS]

Ah, men in tails. How do we love thee? Let us count the ways. (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=34445)



lol.... i think this is a good enough reason ;)

[NonieS]

but on a more serious note, I prefer tails bc the tails fly around like the lady's skirt and floats when the couple spins and turns so it's a very matched look...


but I am not a ballroom gent.... i am a ballroom lady so i guess you were not technically asking my opinion lol

[etp777]

Nonie and all the other lovely ladies here have spoken, I"ll go for tails. :)

They do fit the movement of the body better though, as mentioned by Chris, I believe.

Actually, as a proam smooth dancer, I don't wear either, go for a fitted vest and black shirt.

[dancelvr]

etp - always love the look of the black shirt and fitted vest....yum! ;-)



Now, as I'm not a guy, I probably shouldn't comment on this subject, but if I'm watching or participated in standard, the tails are a necessary part of the picture for me. There is something to be said for tradition. I'd surely hate to see that one disappear. *sigh*

[Chiron]

Nonie and all the other lovely ladies here have spoken, I"ll go for tails. :)

Same here! :D

Actually I do prefer the look of tails. That being said my personal style tends more towards the 'classical'. For example, I like three piece suits, double windsor knots, and I want to get married in tails.

[Warren J. Dew]

The only reason not to use tails is if your lady is so much better than you are that you don't want the judges looking at you.

[contracheck]

etp - always love the look of the black shirt and fitted vest....yum!


What color tie blends well with black shirt and black vest, red, white, black, or?

[White Chacha]

Tails for standard.

[dancelvr]

What color tie blends well with black shirt and black vest, red, white, black, or?


Hmmmm.....well, I've seen my pro wear a red tie with the black shirt and vest. A rich dark blue would look nice as well.... or a deep purple, perhaps? :-) I've also seen it done with a richly textured/patterned black silk tie. However, I think my pro only wears a tie / vest combination for bronze or below pro/am smooth competitions and showcases.

.....oh yeah...and loved your white tux. ;-)

[hereKittyKitty]

Tails for sure in competition. If its a show then either or.

[contracheck]

Hmmmm.....well, I've seen my pro wear a red tie with the black shirt and vest. A rich dark blue would look nice as well.... or a deep purple, perhaps? :-) I've also seen it done with a richly textured/patterned black silk tie. However, I think my pro only wears a tie / vest combination for bronze or below pro/am smooth competitions and showcases.

.....oh yeah...and loved your white tux. ;-)

I think a red tie goes well with a black shirt. Do any other people have any other idea? Btw, thanks for your comment on the white tux. I wonder how much etp is will to pay for it now.

[drejenpha]

What color tie blends well with black shirt and black vest, red, white, black, or?


I personally wear a silver tie... I would wear red if my partner was in red and I could find a red to match, and possibly a white tie if my partner were wearing white.

Have to thank Chiron for making me learn to tie a double windsor as well... not sure if the ties that I own are long enough for that knot, but I'll have to look at it wearing a vest.

[Chris Stratton]

A business suit or tuxedo type of cut is actually longer than a tailcoat in terms of the enclosed part, and so it can never fit a moving, shaping body as well as a good tail suit does.

[etp777]

I go with one of two ties. One is black with silver metallic threads shot through it, other is white with black and silver stripes.

I tend to go with a single windsor. Prefer a four in hand, nice, devil may care type look, but short as I am, most ties are too long to just do a four in hand.

[Standarddancer]

Another vote for tail, I agree with Nonie said, tail flows nicely behind gentleman's back, enhance movement, a very matched look with lady's flowy dress, definitely tail for comp! for show Jacket is cool

[JoepiE]

Like I said I cut of my tails some time ago and am a happy jacket wearer. I understand the movement argument, but think it doesn't matter, if a lady wears a good dress (with floats eg). Then, if the jacket is well made, it will fit the body good, even when twisting or stretching sides. Though it will never fit as well as a well made tails jacket off course.

The deciding argument for me was that it is the only possibility to be stand out of the crowd for me as man. Besides that i think the suit looks a lot better and it is modern as opposed to ... ancient history ;).

Just to be clear on this, i'm not talking about a smoking type of jacket. That will be cut way to low in the front to ever stick to the body in movement. I've seen those on the floor a couple of times and they gap at the front in big twists. The jacketsuit is a double breasted jacket.

[White Chacha]

I'd love to hear what adjudicators have to say about this for Standard. It's my impression that they place lower because it looks "off" to them.

[Joe]

Yes, but is it that it's incongruous, or that it detracts from the look?

[White Chacha]

Your question begs mine - what do actual adjudicators think? Maybe this is one for Larinda's "ask a judge" topic.

[famfam]

I'm talking about a jacket made for dance.


For example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmrGNp40Qzg&feature=related

I know this is at a showcase, so it might be different...?

But is it reasonable to wear a "dance jacket" that would work for smooth and standard for competition? I'm talking about gold level for example.

[Leon Theou]

I know that I have seen some guys in gold and open at collegiate competitions wearing the same non-tail suit for both smooth and standard. Probably those who focus on smooth are more likely to do this. I don't know how judges in non-collegiate comps would view it, but there is certainly no rule against it.

[MissKitty]

The rules here (NZ) state that a Tail suit is compulsory for any level higher than Level 1. (Level 1 being the 'beginner/entry' level, dancing syllabus only) for adults & seniors.

Juniors (12-15 years) are not allowed Tail suits, and are only permitted to wear the type of dance suit jacket that is similar I think to what you folks wear for American Smooth. Or a shirt, vest & Tie.

[Meagan]

If you can afford it at the amateur level I would think the obvious choice would be tails because it does seem like what you would "need" as you move up through the levels.

Although it seems to me if you could only afford one at any level you'd probably be better off with tails...not because I would presume to know what anyone else is thinking but because the reality is at major events they seem to be the norm. I think its great that people experiment because that's how things eventually move forward (except maybe that pesky tanning issue ;)) but until those experiments become the norm, if you're going for a straight this or that it just seems safer to go with tails.

In my personal opinion I also like the traditional look :D

[Joe]

Also, a short jacket should be worn with black tie (not white), which makes you look like a maitre d. :)