That sublime tango flow thing....

[Light Sleeper]

For those who haven't read the thread on the general dance article or who haven't heard the term before, quick definition from Wiki "Flow is the mental state of operation in which the person is fully immersed in what he or she is doing by a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and success in the process of the activity."

That's too textbook though to describe the tango feeling, yes, you're totally absorbed but it's quite special when both of you are absorbed and one with each other and the music. Sigh. Had forgotten what it was like. Not experienced it for a LONG time but it happened again this weekend. Previously it was with a particular leader and he moved away so I only danced with him a few times but each time we were both speechless and in a bit of a dream after a tanda. Very nice. So anyway, I'm curious what other dancer's experience of this is - do you have it often? Is it only to particular music or with particular partners?

[Mario7]

Good topic!.. you could say that 'flow' is why I dance. For me, it only happens with certain women dancers who really are good at AT close embrace. And so, I look to dance with them when I can. There are various wome capable of this but mostly only one or two at any one time are in the mind-set that they are really, really available to produce this magic on any given night. Any stiffness, breaking of the embrace, inability to follow, balance problems, anticipations, etc. would probably throw enough stones into the shoe to make the dance uncomfortable. On my part, I do not try moves that I haven't done many, many times and don't have to think about...I only have 4 or 5 such; ocho-cortado, giro, cross, etc. but they don't require planning and I am fully, FULLY concentrated on the music and the sweeping feel of my partner. A few such experiences (2or3) will make the night a total success for me. In fact, it will advance my dancing skill like nothing else could even come close to.
I want to add after thinking more on this: that there are many woman who are capable of this and do it with others (flow) but won't with me...they may have pre-judged me or simply don't like something about me to the degree that they won't be there in that special way when dancing with me.

[Madahlia]

So anyway, I'm curious what other dancer's experience of this is - do you have it often? Is it only to particular music or with particular partners?
Not nearly often enough!

Sometimes with familiar and well-loved partners.

Sometimes out of the blue with complete strangers.

It has to be to music that pleases me but that's a fairly broad spectrum.

I have to be in a particular state of mind anyway beforehand - confident, relaxed but energised, and with an ability to totally concentrate on the present moment without an inner commentary.

It has to be with a partner with whom I somehow feel accepted regardless of whether it is a friend or a stranger and also without fears or expectations on my behalf of my performance or his!

In fact, I can't remember when I last had this experience dancing tango. Possibly I would only count half a dozen dances of this special kind in the whole time I have been involved in partner dancing. (About 9 years.)

[bordertangoman]

I think its the music that really makes it possible and 90% of tango music is pretty dire and uninspiring; i feel this because I heard a live performance of Piazzolla's Oblivion. I rarely play it since I dont know many good followers who can dance slow. My partner that evening was struggling with her balance even though she could feel how I was dancing with the music and is someone I like dancing with very much. Paradoxically I get better flow results when I forget about my partner, stuff being considerate and caring; ; even one of my closest friends who hates milonga says she likes dancing it with me when I "just take off". Some women dont get Pugliese so I think there has to be a musical congruence.

[dchester]

For those who haven't read the thread on the general dance article or who haven't heard the term before, quick definition from Wiki "Flow is the mental state of operation in which the person is fully immersed in what he or she is doing by a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and success in the process of the activity."

That's too textbook though to describe the tango feeling, yes, you're totally absorbed but it's quite special when both of you are absorbed and one with each other and the music. Sigh. Had forgotten what it was like. Not experienced it for a LONG time but it happened again this weekend. Previously it was with a particular leader and he moved away so I only danced with him a few times but each time we were both speechless and in a bit of a dream after a tanda. Very nice. So anyway, I'm curious what other dancer's experience of this is - do you have it often? Is it only to particular music or with particular partners?
I wasn't sure if you were referring to what some people call "connection", or something else. So I went to look up the Wiki page to get a little more insight. I think this is the reference that you cited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29)

After reading this, I think it is referring to what I would call "In the zone", rather than "connection". Is this how you see it? The reason I ask, is because connection is greatly influenced by not only my own performance, but also the follower and the music. Being "in the zone" is mostly about my own performance (I'm dancing really well, and any move I've ever done, I'll execute it flawlessly). Connection is different from this, (at least for me).

I had a couple tandas this weekend were I really felt connected (and it may have been more due to the follower (and the music) than it was me. However I honestly can't say that I was "in the zone". That's a much more rare thing for me, but when it happens, it (almost) doesn't matter who the follower is.

[opendoor]

..I'm curious what other dancer's experience of this is - do you have it often? Is it only to particular music or with particular partners?

I have it now and then... I cannot predict it, it comes and passes. Factors that affect it: the music, the moon, the mood, and the partner.... But when it occurs, another thing occurs, too: that left hand playing of the women at your neck! It is a good indicator for the flow!

... Connection is different ..

... from flow, but somehow it is connected with it. Think there are three main connections in TA, connection between the couple, to the floor, to the music. The flow has got to do with the music, but also with your proficiency. It is difficult for me to define.

[dchester]

I have it now and then... I cannot predict it, it comes and passes. Factors that affect it: the music, the moon, the mood, and the partner.... But when it occurs, another thing occurs, too: that left hand playing of the women at your neck! It is a good indicator for the flow!

... from flow, but somehow it is connected with it. Think there are three main connections in TA, connection between the couple, to the floor, to the music. The flow has got to do with the music, but also with your proficiency. It is difficult for me to define.
That's why I was trying to find out what the OP was referring to. I do understand about connection to the music, and connection to/between my follower, but I don't understand connection to the floor.

None of these these things get at what I would describe as being "in the zone", which was in the Wiki article that I posted previously. It's a type of focus (and proficiency), that infrequently occurs, where everything seems so easy (almost like things are going in slow motion). You seem to be able to execute anything that you know about. In sports, it's sort of like playing over your head, where (for a an hour or a few) you are much better than you typically are.

[opendoor]

.. describe as being "in the zone"..

At this point I cannot follow the article. For me beyond would fit.

[Madahlia]

Borrowed from another thread:



................the dance was electric because the woman I was dancing with was giving me her total attention.

Being able to give total attention as a follower usually marks out a dance as special for me, and is surprisingly hard to achieve.

Think there are three main connections in TA, connection between the couple, to the floor, to the music. Awareness of these three aspects also characterises a special dance. I know I am having a good night when I am really feeling the floor. D.Chester - the floor, and our connection to it by means of gravity, is something that no-one ever gives much thought to as it is so rooted in our unconscious experience but without it there could be no balance, energy (from pushing against it) or pivoting. Having to do tango, especially in high heels, really sharpens my awareness of how my foot is meeting the floor and using it. At least, that's what opendoor's phrase means to me!


The flow has got to do with the music, but also with your proficiency. It is difficult for me to define.People can get a sense of flow even when their level of proficiency is relatively not that high. So I'm inclined to say it's largely a psychological phenomenon.

[Mario7]

Awareness of these three aspects also characterises a special dance. I know I am having a good night when I am really feeling the floor. D.Chester - the floor, and our connection to it by means of gravity, is something that no-one ever gives much thought to as it is so rooted in our unconscious experience but without it there could be no balance, energy (from pushing against it) or pivoting. .
I agree with this..one of my most stunning memories was when first going
out onto the floor, I felt my feet sinking into it and moving/massaging it..it was wonderfull..total connection.:cool:

[dchester]

At this point I cannot follow the article. For me beyond would fit.
I'll admit that my eyes did stat to glaze over, when reading the article, until I got the the sections on Music and Sports. That's when I felt I understand what the author of the the Wiki article was talking about.

"In the zone" is an American expression, (often used by athletes or performers), which describes a state (or condition, situation, experience, etc) where you are incredibly focused on whatever it is that you are doing, where everything else is blocked out, and you are able to perform at a much higher level than is typical. I've also heard some people refer to this as "tunnel vision".

[dchester]

People can get a sense of flow even when their level of proficiency is relatively not that high. So I'm inclined to say it's largely a psychological phenomenon. It's certainly a psychological phenomenon, but when it happens (and it's rare), you actually do perform at higher level than what you typically are capable of (and when it occurs, you have no negative or limiting feelings). You are not only confident, but actually able to achieve at a higher level.

In addition to tango, in my youth it would occasionally happen when playing basketball. I'd be making shots that I had no business making, and being able to dribble around people and make perfect passes. However, the next game, I'd be back to normal, full of doubts, with no idea why I can't reproduce it.

[Angel HI]

I agree w/ much of what dchester has posted re exactly the meaning of the term and this thread. Yet, here's a cool tip.... in music and dance, the 'professional' doesn't say "flow", but more correctly, "float" (same thing; different word).

[Joy In Motion]

I've done a lot of research and writing on the concept of flow, so I'm very happy to see people discussing it on the forums! :)

What I've wondered in the course of my personal reflections is whether and to what extent it is possible for one partner to feel flow in the dance without the other feeling it too. Perhaps that is why some feel the need to distinguish between a personal flow and a higher connection between two people.

[Steve Pastor]

I'd be making shots that I had no business making, and being able to dribble around people and make perfect passes.
Thanks for this, because it helps me make the point that while you arent focused on one or two things, such as your partner and the music, you are "taking it all in" and responding to it without thinking. To me part of "all" includes my definition of "the floor", that being everyone and everything around you. You dont have to watch anyone in particular, but you see their motion, or lack thereof, and sync your motions to them so there are no collisions, etc.

[AndaBien]

To start, I think we are discussing something that is essentially not definable; however, the discussion is still interesting.

For me, dancing with the floor is important: it's one of the things I'm touching. Perhaps it's like the driver of a car who may merely go over the surface of a road, or one who feels the road and responds to it. I constantly feel the floor with my feet, adjust my balance, prepare for the next step.

I frequently get into the zone. For me it's like a zen moment, where there is no past and no future, only the full immediacy of the moment with my partner, the music, the other couples and the floor. I don't do steps, I just dance. I like to call it going over the edge. I can only do this with good partners, who will go over the edge with me. Sometimes the music is a distraction. I often become distracted by other couples, which is irritating. I have also found that I can summon the state of mind if I focus my attention and refuse to be distracted.

[bordertangoman]

....."Pete: Give me Pugliese every time. He is the Jimi Hendrix of the Bandoneon. He makes the instrument sound like the human voice. a human voice with passion and drama; His rendition of La Yumba captures every other tango song ever played with a bandoneon.

Dud: he was a pianist Pete.

Pete: that makes his genius even more extraordinary. Only someone with such vision could make an instrument he wasnt playing sound so evocative. When I hear Galla Ciego or Negracha I am aroused to a state of passion that is rarely experienced outside cloistered religious institutions.
If Tanturi and Campos are the best coffee of tango, then Pugliese is the Mescaline of tango. When I hear his music it transports to an altered state where I lose myself. I am no longer conscious of there being a me and a partner or that I am in a room full of people; there is only music and movement. I am no longer responsible for my actions when Pugliese is played.

Dud: Is that why you bump into so many people then?

Pete: quite possibly, Dud, quite possibly........."

:)

for the full transcript go to
http://www.jivetango.co.uk/Humour/PeteAndDud.html

[Light Sleeper]

Thanks everyone who responded :)

More to follow...

[Light Sleeper]

A few such experiences (2or3) will make the night a total success for me. In fact, it will advance my dancing skill like nothing else could even come close to.
I want to add after thinking more on this: that there are many woman who are capable of this and do it with others (flow) but won't with me...they may have pre-judged me or simply don't like something about me to the degree that they won't be there in that special way when dancing with me.

I think you highlight the fact that some of this is to do with personal ‘chemistry’ if you like or at least ‘attitude’

Every night - you're lucky!

Not nearly often enough!

Sometimes with familiar and well-loved partners.

Sometimes out of the blue with complete strangers.

It has to be to music that pleases me but that's a fairly broad spectrum.

I have to be in a particular state of mind anyway beforehand - confident, relaxed but energised, and with an ability to totally concentrate on the present moment without an inner commentary.

It has to be with a partner with whom I somehow feel accepted regardless of whether it is a friend or a stranger and also without fears or expectations on my behalf of my performance or his!

In fact, I can't remember when I last had this experience dancing tango. Possibly I would only count half a dozen dances of this special kind in the whole time I have been involved in partner dancing. (About 9 years.)

Yes! I've experienced it little too, which is why it's so dramatic when it does happen. I agree with your criteria for feeling comfortable etc. I've been involved with partner dancing about 7 years on and off and have experienced it little.

I think when I first started tango I was so excited I was in a kind of ‘flow/ connection’ situation but at a very low level.. it was more to do with being so excited at moving to music I connected with.

I think its the music that really makes it possible and 90% of tango music is pretty dire and uninspiring; i feel this because I heard a live performance of Piazzolla's Oblivion. I rarely play it since I dont know many good followers who can dance slow. My partner that evening was struggling with her balance even though she could feel how I was dancing with the music and is someone I like dancing with very much. Paradoxically I get better flow results when I forget about my partner, stuff being considerate and caring; ; even one of my closest friends who hates milonga says she likes dancing it with me when I "just take off". Some women dont get Pugliese so I think there has to be a musical congruence.

Funny you say that – I’ve been trying to make a cd ofmusic I really like and it’s so hard! Broadly I like virtually all tango music but now I’m getting deeper into the dance I do find the amount of music I find truly inspiring is diminishing.

I wasn't sure if you were referring to what some people call "connection", or something else. So I went to look up the Wiki page to get a little more insight. I think this is the reference that you cited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29)

After reading this, I think it is referring to what I would call "In the zone", rather than "connection". Is this how you see it? The reason I ask, is because connection is greatly influenced by not only my own performance, but also the follower and the music. Being "in the zone" is mostly about my own performance (I'm dancing really well, and any move I've ever done, I'll execute it flawlessly). Connection is different from this, (at least for me).

I had a couple tandas this weekend were I really felt connected (and it may have been more due to the follower (and the music) than it was me. However I honestly can't say that I was "in the zone". That's a much more rare thing for me, but when it happens, it (almost) doesn't matter who the follower is.

I've done a lot of research and writing on the concept of flow, so I'm very happy to see people discussing it on the forums!

What I've wondered in the course of my personal reflections is whether and to what extent it is possible for one partner to feel flow in the dance without the other feeling it too. Perhaps that is why some feel the need to distinguish between a personal flow and a higher connection between two people.


Maybe it’s different for followers. Knowing I’ve danced well is neither here nor there because usually when I dance my best is when I’m most aware of what I did wrong… it’s a heightened awareness that creates this and there’s a sense of satisfaction to a degree but it’s too self-conscious. I think what I’ve experienced, though, as Andabien said, we’re trying to define something that is indefinable really is an unselfconsioucness. So I didn’t define it in my original post, but that’s because it’s hard to and in any case people knew what I meant as they responded immediately with ‘ooh, it’s what I dance for’ etc… so broadly we’re talking about an exalted feeling of some sort.

When I first experienced it was when my technique wasn’t very good and nor was the leader’s. This last time I know I was bang on the money, it was all so effortless. It was with a piece of music I’ve connected with as an individual so that was special but I don’t actually think it was necessary when it came down to it.. what was most important was that it was a shared experience.

I think that’s the key for me. I’ve never had an exalted feeling when the other person hasn’t (except at the beginning when I was just so excited to be dancing tango). With the first leader it was unspoken but clearly we’d experienced the same thing. And the second leader was very vocal about it!





Being able to give total attention as a follower usually marks out a dance as special for me, and is surprisingly hard to achieve.


I think that’s it, it’s hard to achieve because there is a randomness to it aswell as all the other elements we’ve discussed. But you’re right, I was just there, totally switched off from anything else that was going on and was just following. There is an element of trust, too. That you trust and feel comfortable with the person you are dancing with as we said earlier.


....."Pete: Give me Pugliese every time. He is the Jimi Hendrix of the Bandoneon. He makes the instrument sound like the human voice. a human voice with passion and drama; His rendition of La Yumba captures every other tango song ever played with a bandoneon.

Dud: he was a pianist Pete.




for the full transcript go to
http://www.jivetango.co.uk/Humour/PeteAndDud.html

Hehe – I love Pete n Dud!

[bjp22tango]

Good topic!.. you could say that 'flow' is why I dance. For me, it only happens with certain women dancers who really are good at AT close embrace. And so, I look to dance with them when I can. There are various wome capable of this but mostly only one or two at any one time are in the mind-set that they are really, really available to produce this magic on any given night. Any stiffness, breaking of the embrace, inability to follow, balance problems, anticipations, etc. would probably throw enough stones into the shoe to make the dance uncomfortable.

"Flow" is why I dance also, but I'm looking for flow in all styles of dance. I first felt it in EC Swing becuase it was the first dance I learned.

For me, flow comes from a mental connection with my partner and the music. It's like understanding a joke that no one else gets. We are listening to the music in the same way, or able to finish each others' dance sentences.
If I'm leading, and hear something in the music and set up a dance pattern, and the follow responds with the music either expectedly or unexpectedly, that is flow to me.
When I'm following and can pick up on the leaders idea and magnify it or accent it, that is flow to me.
I can't say that I'm a Zen person when I'm dancing. I'm a pretty solitary person when I'm not dancing, so being Zen is the last thing on my mind. When I'm dancing, I'm looking to engage in a nonverbal conversation that has alot of give and take.
It is why I prefer Tango Nuevo, I think.

[bordertangoman]

Has anything scientific been done to measure flow; is it endorphin release? or brain wave patterns? Joy?

[ant]

Has anything scientific been done to measure flow; is it endorphin release? or brain wave patterns? Joy?


BTM if I remember correctly was there not a thread recently about testing testosterone in saliva and the use of AT as therapy?

[opendoor]

... testosterone

this thread concerns spiritual, not ....

[bordertangoman]

this thread concerns spiritual, not ....

nothing a can of castrol wouldnt improve....

[jantango]

For those who haven't read the thread on the general dance article or who haven't heard the term before, quick definition from Wiki "Flow is the mental state of operation in which the person is fully immersed in what he or she is doing by a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and success in the process of the activity."

That's too textbook though to describe the tango feeling, yes, you're totally absorbed but it's quite special when both of you are absorbed and one with each other and the music. Sigh. Had forgotten what it was like. Not experienced it for a LONG time but it happened again this weekend. Previously it was with a particular leader and he moved away so I only danced with him a few times but each time we were both speechless and in a bit of a dream after a tanda. Very nice. So anyway, I'm curious what other dancer's experience of this is - do you have it often? Is it only to particular music or with particular partners?


I've never read this definition of flow, but it seems to describe how milongueros feel when they are dancing tango--completely immersed in the moment yet aware of the space around them while feeling what the music tells them to do.

I have this experience regularly with certain dance partners. I become totally absorbed in the music and often forget I'm in the arms of a man. I experience a sense of weightlessness.

[ant]

this thread concerns spiritual, not ....

The article referred to was about the use of Tango for therapy. IMO I think flow and that therapy are closely connected. In the article they mentioned various tests carried out on the saliva of participants and they found that the testosterone levels went up.

I wonder if the reason for this was the flow/connection felt when they danced AT?

[bordertangoman]

The article referred to was about the use of Tango for therapy. IMO I think flow and that therapy are closely connected. In the article they mentioned various tests carried out on the saliva of participants and they found that the testosterone levels went up.

I wonder if the reason for this was the flow/connection felt when they danced AT?

wouldnt testosterone make blokes more likely to fight? and is this an emotional reaction or hormonal?

[bordertangoman]

Does tango compare to meditation in the effects it produces;

"In addition to claiming spiritual benefits, meditation has tangible physiological effects. Studies of Transcendental Meditation reveal that during meditation, there is "an increase in the areas of the [cerebral] cortex taking part in perception of specific information and an increase in the functional relationship between the two hemispheres" (4). These observations support the cognitive claims of the "mindful state" in Zen by showing an increase in functional awareness. Additionally, TM practice results in increased EEG coherence, blood flow to the brain, muscle relaxation, and a decrease in stress hormones " (4). Similarly, in Zen practice, some masters can lower the respiration rate from 12-15 breaths per minute to a mere 3 (2). Long term TM practice results in greater EEG coherence; increased efficiency of information transfer in the brain; lower baseline levels of heart and respiration rates; increased stability of the autonomic nervous system; faster recovery from stress; faster reactions; and faster reflex responses (4). These data suggest that relaxation techniques can alter set-points and negative feedback loops which the I-function cannot alter. "Mindfulness" involves the awareness and control of physical operations that we cannot have through a structure that purports to separate "us" from some of our functions. Over-reliance on the "I-function" constitutes an attachment to certain types of behavior which we then privilege over others, falsely supposing the "I" to have a permanence over and above brain functions."

source:http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro99/web2/Benner.html

[dchester]

Maybe it’s different for followers. Knowing I’ve danced well is neither here nor there because usually when I dance my best is when I’m most aware of what I did wrong… it’s a heightened awareness that creates this and there’s a sense of satisfaction to a degree but it’s too self-conscious. I think what I’ve experienced, though, as Andabien said, we’re trying to define something that is indefinable really is an unselfconsioucness. So I didn’t define it in my original post, but that’s because it’s hard to and in any case people knew what I meant as they responded immediately with ‘ooh, it’s what I dance for’ etc… so broadly we’re talking about an exalted feeling of some sort.

When I first experienced it was when my technique wasn’t very good and nor was the leader’s. This last time I know I was bang on the money, it was all so effortless. It was with a piece of music I’ve connected with as an individual so that was special but I don’t actually think it was necessary when it came down to it.. what was most important was that it was a shared experience.

I think that’s the key for me. I’ve never had an exalted feeling when the other person hasn’t (except at the beginning when I was just so excited to be dancing tango). With the first leader it was unspoken but clearly we’d experienced the same thing. And the second leader was very vocal about it! This sounds like what I would call, "connection". It happens more for me than the other experience I was trying to describe (in the zone). It's sort of funny after a tanda when you get a good connection, as the two of us are usually trying to out compliment the other on how good they were (and there really were no fancy steps at all).

When dancing while connected, about the only though I might have (other than bliss) is that I sure hope I don't screw this up.

:)

[Madahlia]

The article referred to was about the use of Tango for therapy. IMO I think flow and that therapy are closely connected. In the article they mentioned various tests carried out on the saliva of participants and they found that the testosterone levels went up.

I wonder if the reason for this was the flow/connection felt when they danced AT?

I'd be interested in how the "therapeutic tango" was administered. After all, it takes years to learn tango, and in the early stages stress levels typically go up rather than down as so many new challenges are presented.

Also, does testosterone go up in tangueras as well? Women with higher (relatively, nowhere near as much as men) levels of testosterone have higher levels of libido, I believe.

Rather than just producing aggression, might it not also produce a heightened response to stimuli?

I think "flow" must have something to do with brain wave patterns. I remember doing an accelerated learning course where it was emphasised that the learners must be got into a suitably relaxed state for learning. I know that if I'm tense my brain just freezes, rendering me incapable of taking in any information - could "flow" be the opposite of that?

http://www.web-us.com/brainwavesfunction.htm



http://www.200words-a-day.com/alpha.html

Might the state we are trying to describe be a theta-wave state? Rare, hard to achieve, meditational but highly creative?

[Madahlia]

When dancing while connected, about the only though I might have (other than bliss) is that I sure hope I don't screw this up.

:)
Even letting such a thought cross my mind is enough to drive that special state of mind away. There has to be complete, unthinking, fearlessness and confidence for me to experience it. Tango is such a mind-game, for a whole gamut of reasons, that it's very hard to achieve that state of empty-headed awareness.

Like Light Sleeper, it was almost easier when I was a complete beginner and newly-in-love with tango. Four years on, like in most relationships, things have become more complex! I'm still in love, but notice the quirks and blemishes more - and it's harder to get enthusiastic.

[Joy In Motion]

Even letting such a thought cross my mind is enough to drive that special state of mind away. There has to be complete, unthinking, fearlessness and confidence for me to experience it. Tango is such a mind-game, for a whole gamut of reasons, that it's very hard to achieve that state of empty-headed awareness.

Like Light Sleeper, it was almost easier when I was a complete beginner and newly-in-love with tango. Four years on, like in most relationships, things have become more complex! I'm still in love, but notice the quirks and blemishes more - and it's harder to get enthusiastic.

Yes on the first part, Madahlia. Among the characteristics of flow are a loss of self-consciousness and one's sense of time.

Also, experiencing flow less often once one progresses past the beginning stages of learning has been reported by quite a few. I believe this is because another characteristic of flow is the balance of challenge and skills. I think when you are a beginner you have plenty of challenges and many opportunities to rise to these challenges as your skills increase. When you reach an intermediate or advanced level, you may find less challenges depending on your community and many other factors. Your perception and mentality also have a lot to do with it. If you don't think there are any challenges for you, you may become bored. On the other hand, as Madahlia mentioned, if you are overly focused on your shortcomings or on more challenges than you can handle at one time, you may become overwhelmed.

Many people don't relate to the idea of balancing challenges and skills when it comes to flow because they think it is more about connection. And that is fine. But even if your focus is on connection, subconsciously your perception of challenges and skills (being underwhelmed or overwhelmed in the dance) affects your ability to focus on connection in the dance.

When I interviewed Alex Krebs last year, he said he also experienced flow less often in comparison to his first year or two of learning. We talked a little bit about the concept of challenge vs. skills, and he agreed that may be a factor. It's definitely a complex and intangible thing to quantify, but if you are feeling like you are having difficulty connecting and experiencing flow in the dance, shifting your perception of challenge and skill may help. I read somewhere that our minds can only handle one or two challenges at once with any success, so for many it is helpful to be more focused and specific on what they are working on or focused on in the dance. I do this and have found great results and good peace of mind, and I recommend this to my students as well.

And unfortunately, Bordermantango, the flow research out there is mainly based on people's reports on their own experiences with flow, specifically in the realms of sports and art. I have not seen any research done to determine what is happening in the brain when flow is being experienced. I think research on Zen and the brain is your best bet because the idea with Zen is that its practitioners cultivate the ability to summon the experience through a set of techniques (for lack of a better word). Flow in sports and art (at least as reported by most) tends to happen without our being able to predict it or bring it about on our own. And the experience of flow is usually relatively rare, not an everyday occurrence. So I think that is the difficulty with trying to do research on what is happening in the brain during flow. But I am really curious to know! Perhaps someone who is intimately familiar with both Zen and dance flow can speak to how much the experiences are similar and whether the science of the brain should be comparable or not.

[Madahlia]

Also, experiencing flow less often once one progresses past the beginning stages of learning has been reported by quite a few. I believe this is because another characteristic of flow is the balance of challenge and skills. I think when you are a beginner you have plenty of challenges and many opportunities to rise to these challenges as your skills increase. When you reach an intermediate or advanced level, you may find less challenges depending on your community and many other factors. Your perception and mentality also have a lot to do with it. If you don't think there are any challenges for you, you may become bored. On the other hand, as Madahlia mentioned, if you are overly focused on your shortcomings or on more challenges than you can handle at one time, you may become overwhelmed.I agree. When I was learning another dance form I revelled in the sense of the dance world being like an adventure playground - as soon as I'd acquired enough basic skills to operate in it the challenge of developing and honing them was intoxicating. Connection was important too but almost incidentally as I played around with what I was capable of. The instances when connection, skill and music came together are still memorable.

It hasn't happened that way way in tango for various reasons - there's so much about the tango world that I find stuffy and uptight that it's hard to get that sense of play, and women have less freedom to pick and choose partners.

I feel that I don't do connection well in any sense - but rising to the physical challenges of dance never fails to be exciting. And sharing that, for me, helps to create mental connection.

[Steve Pastor]

"One does not dance to go into a trance but to come out of a trance, to join a diversified assembly with a seperate contribution, for dancing is a reminder that one is only part of the whole."
African Rhythm and African Sensibility p 150
Or not, I guess.


My experience dancing among these people forever changed the way I dance
tango. When I got used to moving on those crowded dance floors I found that it
wasn’t as constraining as one might think. First of all the floor still moved, so
there was always space opening ahead to move into. I never had to dance in place
for long before I had a chance to move a bit. There was enough movement to
circle a moderate sized room at least once in one tango. You could spend 6 hours
on those floors (I did) and never be bumped once. The dancing was amazingly
energetic, and dancers seemed free to dance a musical and creative dance. It was
beautiful to watch, and an amazing experience being in that flow.
Robert Hauk http://home.teleport.com/~robhauk/navigation1.html

[Light Sleeper]

wouldnt testosterone make blokes more likely to fight? and is this an emotional reaction or hormonal?

I think this is the article http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article6837033.ece

It increased testosterone in women and men - ie both parties 'got the horn' .... ;)

[Light Sleeper]

This sounds like what I would call, "connection". It happens more for me than the other experience I was trying to describe (in the zone). It's sort of funny after a tanda when you get a good connection, as the two of us are usually trying to out compliment the other on how good they were (and there really were no fancy steps at all).

When dancing while connected, about the only though I might have (other than bliss) is that I sure hope I don't screw this up.

:)

In my mind, connection just is the fact that you are dancing with someone, it could be a bad connection or a wonderful connection but even if both dancers have a high level of skill and are physically connected it doesn't determine the exalted feelings we're talking about.

[Light Sleeper]

I have this experience regularly with certain dance partners. I become totally absorbed in the music and often forget I'm in the arms of a man. I experience a sense of weightlessness.

Yes, I know what you mean about weightlessness, but I don't want to forget i'm in somebody's arms , or that they're in my arms :-)

[Light Sleeper]

Yes on the first part, Madahlia. Among the characteristics of flow are a loss of self-consciousness and one's sense of time.

Yes, it goes in a flash.


Many people don't relate to the idea of balancing challenges and skills when it comes to flow because they think it is more about connection. And that is fine. But even if your focus is on connection, subconsciously your perception of challenges and skills (being underwhelmed or overwhelmed in the dance) affects your ability to focus on connection in the dance.

So if you're under or over challenged, 'flow' or whatever we want to call it - is less likely? Yep, that stands to reason.
I read somewhere that our minds can only handle one or two challenges at once with any success, so for many it is helpful to be more focused and specific on what they are working on or focused on in the dance. I do this and have found great results and good peace of mind, and I recommend this to my students as well.

thanks for the tip!

[Light Sleeper]

"One does not dance to go into a trance but to come out of a trance, to join a diversified assembly with a seperate contribution, for dancing is a reminder that one is only part of the whole."
African Rhythm and African Sensibility p 150
Or not, I guess.

Robert Hauk http://home.teleport.com/~robhauk/navigation1.html

Wellllll, it depends what type and what context. I would argue that tango isn't about being part of a whole, it's about a partnership, not the wider group other than general floorcraft and politeness.

Though when we're 'floating' in tango, are we, in effect, connected to the 'collective unconscious'? And is that a way of being part of a whole?

[Steve Pastor]

You will be assimilated
Resistance is Futile

Seriously, if you are into your own thing with your partner and the music, but you are running into other people, you are only part way there.
I THINK bmt and I are trying to make the same point that being part of a whole bunch of people who are, really, all dancing together, is probably a more difficult place to get to.
We parse it out and refer to "navigational skills".
I think I am particularly aware of this "collective" aspect to dancing because of the utterly miserable experiences I had as an AT beginner. I just could NOT for the life of me understand how people could be so rude (IMO) as to run into other couples and act like nothing had happened. (I was pretty much a target, because I was unable to do much of anything, really, to avoid collisions, although I did not run into other people, they ran into me even if I was standing still.) Tango Trance, eh? I guess.

The connection with African Dance is there, although now it is rather tenuous. The "coolness" of the dancers, especially the milongueros, can be traced to African influence, as an example.
Robert's essay references experiencing being part of a whole, and he uses the term "flow".
In the "West" we think of dancing as an individual/partner pursuit.
In Africa dance is something that helps bind the community together.

There's more in this book that Joy in Motion mentioned about how the community creates and reinforces standards. It would be useful in our AT communities to adopt the same attitudes, but it may be too much to ask. Traditional African "dance education" begins as early as you can imagine. In the West... well, you know how it is.

[Captain Jep]

Wellllll, it depends what type and what context. I would argue that tango isn't about being part of a whole, it's about a partnership, not the wider group other than general floorcraft and politeness.

Though when we're 'floating' in tango, are we, in effect, connected to the 'collective unconscious'? And is that a way of being part of a whole?

If everyone is behaving impeccably, then yes, you can get that sense of "flow" with the floor as a whole. But that doesnt happen very often. It's also easier to see if you're observing the floor rather than dancing within it (it's a quantum thing, baby).

I love the sense in which dancing tango is thinking-not-thinking. That is when I come close to being in the flow. Any actual thinking I do then disrupts that state. Having to avoid other dancers is in that category. So I would argue that it's only really possible to achieve "flow" on (a) an uncrowded floor or (b) on a disciplined one.

[Light Sleeper]

You will be assimilated
Resistance is Futile

Seriously, if you are into your own thing with your partner and the music, but you are running into other people, you are only part way there.
I THINK bmt and I are trying to make the same point that being part of a whole bunch of people who are, really, all dancing together, is probably a more difficult place to get to.
We parse it out and refer to "navigational skills".


No, I, nor my partners did not run into people when we blissed out. I rarely allow myself to close my eyes because I'm aware I'm partly responsible for navigation.

I enjoy being part of a collective of people on a dancefloor.

But I feel the bliss from the connection with partner and music, I don't get bliss from being 'of the group'.

Is that what you're trying to get at? :confused:

[dchester]

In my mind, connection just is the fact that you are dancing with someone, it could be a bad connection or a wonderful connection but even if both dancers have a high level of skill and are physically connected it doesn't determine the exalted feelings we're talking about.Sorry, I guess I should have said a good (or wonderful) connection. It didn't occur to me that when I said connection, people would think a bad connection was part of what I was referring to.

[Light Sleeper]

Sorry, I guess I should have said a good (or wonderful) connection. It didn't occur to me that when I said connection, people would think a bad connection was part of what I was referring to.
... didn't mean to sound pedantic, my main point was that even if you have a wonderful connection physically, you won't necessarily get the blissed out feeling. And conversely, someone said they felt 'in the zone' with me, yet their dancing is atrocious, zero physical connection, they just liked dancing with me/ having me in their arms.

[Dave Bailey]

90% of tango music is pretty dire and uninspiring
Aha! 'Aving that. :D

[Joy In Motion]

The connection with African Dance is there, although now it is rather tenuous. The "coolness" of the dancers, especially the milongueros, can be traced to African influence, as an example.
Robert's essay references experiencing being part of a whole, and he uses the term "flow".
In the "West" we think of dancing as an individual/partner pursuit.
In Africa dance is something that helps bind the community together.

There's more in this book that Joy in Motion mentioned about how the community creates and reinforces standards. It would be useful in our AT communities to adopt the same attitudes, but it may be too much to ask. Traditional African "dance education" begins as early as you can imagine. In the West... well, you know how it is.

I like that you brought up the concept of coolness, Steve, as discussed by Thompson and Chernoff. I know there is much more to the concept, but when I first read a little about it I wondered if the look on our faces naturally changes when we experience flow and has that appearance of coolness. I know when I experience flow I can feel my face (and indeed my whole body) changing - becoming lighter and somehow different in quality. I often wondered if this is a change identifiable by others, and sometimes I wonder if I could train myself to be able to tell when others are feeling flow by watching their faces. I know that I feel attracted or repelled by someone's dancing by their facial expressions (and many other factors of course). Is the changing of the face pretty much the same across the board when it comes to experiencing flow, or does it differ by individual? If it is similar to Zen or if there is something physical/chemical happening in the brain and the body, it is entirely possible that it's out of our control and something we all similarly experience, which could visably be seen and could possibly be detected. Perhaps the idea of coolness developed from recognizing this heightened experience of flow in others. At the very least I see coolness in dancers who seem totally focused in a relaxed sense (again, one of the characteristics of flow: relaxed concentration) when it comes to their movement, the music, and their partner and who also have character and depth in their dancing. I would definitely need to research and come to understand coolness better to see if this is how Africans truly view this quality in dancers. I know there are a lot of specific religious connotations as well; not sure how fluid this concept is to them. But I rant, my apologies... :)

True, African music and dancing is more about community, and they typically dance in circles or in other communal configurations. But I like to think that we can find a similar sense of community on an individual level as well as a communal level through partner dancing as well. I certainly feel this way, but unfortunately many don't experience this or haven't been opened up to these possibilities. For many it is about showing off or other superficial reasons. The more someone turns away from these motivations, the more their dancing is attractive to me. I have very strong sensitivity to that when I dance with someone and when I watch someone dance. I find that not everyone has these sensitivities, but I hope they can be developed if people are willing and wanting.

[Steve Pastor]

So I would argue that it's only really possible to achieve "flow" on (a) an uncrowded floor or (b) on a disciplined one.
I guess I'm arguing that when it's really working, you react to the movement of others without thinking.
Again Dchester's post re basketball got me started on this. You HAVE to react to other players. If you are skiing you HAVE to react to the changing terrain, and often make your moves so you avoid running into other skiers.
If you haven't moved through a crowd without any discernable effort, it's hard to understand. And, yes, as Robert wrote, there is a feeling of oneness with the crowd you are in.
Let me add here, though, that to do this I need a partner who is very much in sync with my movement. Without this, I have to pay too much attention to her, and where she is or might go, and there is no flow.
BTW there is (or can be) the same feeling with the other dances I do.
I love the challenge of dancing in a crowd, even on a Saturday night at a CW place (usually); but need that good partner to make it work.
Oh, and just WHY is it that we go out among others to dance? Maybe, just maybe, as people argue regarding theater and "going to the movies", there is something we don't quite acknowldge about the communal and social aspect of dancing (and seeing things as a group) because of our culture's emphasis on indivduality.

I'm also (trying to) read(ing) and comprehend "The Tao of Physics", which likens "recent" discoveries of the nature of the universe on scales we don't normally experience and the new understanding of the true nature of the universe with the "oneness" and "timelessness" of "Zen" like states.

It's like that.

[mkjohnson]

The only time, granted in my limited 9 month tango dancing history, I experienced what I think approximates this - was on a very crowded milonga floor. My partner and I were very connected, relaxed (okay, exhausted, it was very, very late) - and it felt like we were in no particular hurry. Instead of my partner looking for a patch of daylight to dart into - we just settled into our 'alotted' space and moved with the crowd. About halfway through the first song, it started to feel like the entire floor of dancers was moving together. Everyone was contributing to the flow of the floor and the dance. The sensation of a group of dancers all moving together with the music was just beyond description (and here's me trying). Amazing. Transcendental. Whatever.

One thing I noticed when the floor starts to feel like this - there is very little talking. Some dancers/couples always seem to talk a great deal. For some reason I noticed the crowd being very quiet at the time. Focused on the music.

[dchester]

... didn't mean to sound pedantic, my main point was that even if you have a wonderful connection physically, you won't necessarily get the blissed out feeling. And conversely, someone said they felt 'in the zone' with me, yet their dancing is atrocious, zero physical connection, they just liked dancing with me/ having me in their arms.
This relates to why I was initially trying to find out what type of feeling you were referring to when you said "flow". That blissed out feeling, is what I refer to as "connection". "In the zone" is something else altogether (and to me, it sounded like what the Wiki article said about flow). I get the connection a lot more than I get in the zone.

Could both happen at the same time? Possibly it does for some people. It just hasn't happened for me yet.

[opendoor]

I find it disillusioning that none of the guys has encountered that neck thing and brought it into a connection with flow experiences. May be my senses were deceiving me? :(

... But when ..., another thing occurs, too: that left hand playing of the women...

[Light Sleeper]

I have it now and then... I cannot predict it, it comes and passes. Factors that affect it: the music, the moon, the mood, and the partner.... But when it occurs, another thing occurs, too: that left hand playing of the women at your neck! It is a good indicator for the flow!


That sounds like full-on flirting to me!! ;)

[Light Sleeper]

This relates to why I was initially trying to find out what type of feeling you were referring to when you said "flow". That blissed out feeling, is what I refer to as "connection". "In the zone" is something else altogether (and to me, it sounded like what the Wiki article said about flow). I get the connection a lot more than I get in the zone.

Could both happen at the same time? Possibly it does for some people. It just hasn't happened for me yet.

I personally can't differentiate what you describe as 'in the zone' and 'connection'... they seem to intermingle too much in these situations I've experienced.

[bordertangoman]

I like that you brought up the concept of coolness, Steve, as discussed by Thompson and Chernoff. I know there is much more to the concept, but when I first read a little about it I wondered if the look on our faces naturally changes when we experience flow and has that appearance of coolness.


a slight tangent; further to coolness; in the uk my perception is that the cool guys aren't dancing tango; they're dancing salsa, reggaeton, hip-hop, kizomba and maybe ceroc ( DB are you cool?)

[Light Sleeper]

So I would argue that it's only really possible to achieve "flow" on (a) an uncrowded floor or (b) on a disciplined one.

I must say, that on the few occasions it has happened, it was indeed on an uncrowded floor.


I know when I experience flow I can feel my face (and indeed my whole body) changing - becoming lighter and somehow different in quality. I often wondered if this is a change identifiable by others, and sometimes I wonder if I could train myself to be able to tell when others are feeling flow by watching their faces. I know that I feel attracted or repelled by someone's dancing by their facial expressions (and many other factors of course). Is the changing of the face pretty much the same across the board when it comes to experiencing flow, or does it differ by individual?

This is interesting! I’ll try and get a friend to observe how my face changes when I’m dancing with this particular leader. My initial thought is that, actually, this is going to differ a lot from individual to individual.

True, African music and dancing is more about community, and they typically dance in circles or in other communal configurations. But I like to think that we can find a similar sense of community on an individual level as well as a communal level through partner dancing as well. I certainly feel this way, but unfortunately many don't experience this or haven't been opened up to these possibilities.

I’m not immune to communal feelings. One of my joys in life is trying to find ‘fellowship’ no matter how fleeting. I’m not religious so that rules that out. I’m an activist, and I have experienced feeling part of a community when, say, on the picket lines. As long as there’s one commonality I will feel a sense of community and being one part of a whole. Dancing communities vary so much in character. I’m open to future possibilities but at present I haven’t experienced a feeling of community on the dancefloor.. I think because there are such varied reasons for people’s presence on the dancefloor… nobody gives up a day’s pay and stands all day in the cold and rain to rain on their fellow companion’s parade… who knows what motivates some dancers? I could rattle off dozens of reasons why people dance and it’s not all ‘nice’ or ‘community spirited’.

.
Oh, and just WHY is it that we go out among others to dance? Maybe, just maybe, as people argue regarding theater and "going to the movies", there is something we don't quite acknowldge about the communal and social aspect of dancing (and seeing things as a group) because of our culture's emphasis on indivduality.

I'm also (trying to) read(ing) and comprehend "The Tao of Physics", which likens "recent" discoveries of the nature of the universe on scales we don't normally experience and the new understanding of the true nature of the universe with the "oneness" and "timelessness" of "Zen" like states.

It's like that.


Going back to Steve’s discussion of African attitudes. Well, yes, in a way Western industrial societies are ‘tribal’ in their own way.. but the fact of the matter is we’ve a more sharply defined sense of individuality/ ego than certain cultures that derived from hunter-gatherer societies etc. There’s no getting away from that. ‘Course, some have even greater egos than others within that society ;-)

As an aside, I watched a programme about ‘the glamour era’ in Britain (from 1920s to the 40s), there used to be dancehalls on every corner practically – everyone danced. Things have changed so much and it’s become such a money spinner for the Ballroom world. And also, there was some lovely footage from a dancehall, the floor was packed and nobody seemed to be bumping into each other.. they were just doing some lovely social travelling dancing, not sure what you’d call it.. and I have to say, it definitely wasn’t AT but the women were doing lovely backwards extensions that would put a lot of AT dancers to shame!

[Light Sleeper]

a slight tangent; further to coolness; in the uk my perception is that the cool guys aren't dancing tango; they're dancing salsa, reggaeton, hip-hop, kizomba and maybe ceroc ( DB are you cool?)

What's your definition of coolness? My perception is that it means you're very aware of your skill level and, most crucially, you don't give a rat's b*m what anyone thinks of you.

The cool guys are the ones who wear hats! Because you don't dance with a hat on unless you think you're the bee's knees (regardless of whether you are or not!) ;)

[bordertangoman]

I find it disillusioning that none of the guys has encountered that neck thing and brought it into a connection with flow experiences. May be my senses were deceiving me? :(

i have experienced the neck thing and its very nice strangely enough i had a nice dance with a woman last weekend who had a very comfortable embrace but hadnt even learnt to cross. baffling

[bordertangoman]

What's your definition of coolness? My perception is that it means you're very aware of your skill level and, most crucially, you don't give a rat's b*m what anyone thinks of you.

The cool guys are the ones who wear hats! Because you don't dance with a hat on unless you think you're the bee's knees (regardless of whether you are or not!) ;)

aha but coolness is subject to the Johari Window Defenestration Effect;

ie: you may think you're the bees-knees and have the audacity to wear a hat but you may find that Like Steve Martin in the jerk, that you're not black nor cool.

[opendoor]

.... sounds like..... ;)

ooh :oops:

[dchester]

I find it disillusioning that none of the guys has encountered that neck thing and brought it into a connection with flow experiences. May be my senses were deceiving me? :(
It might simply be that you've been able to experience something, that some of us have not, yet. I'll admit that I haven't experienced the "connection to the floor" that was mentioned previously. Apparently others have, though. I hope that someday, I'll understand it.

OK, I went back and re-read where you originally talked about the neck thing. I have it now and then... I cannot predict it, it comes and passes. Factors that affect it: the music, the moon, the mood, and the partner.... But when it occurs, another thing occurs, too: that left hand playing of the women at your neck! It is a good indicator for the flow!
That's what I have been calling connection (not flow, not in the zone). Feeling are difficult to define and discuss, but it is interesting.

[Heather2007]

further to coolness; in the uk my perception is that the cool guys aren't dancing tango;...

Bang on! Tango requiires too much attention to look good for others...see LS's post below..

...crucially, you don't give a rat's b*m what anyone thinks of you.

The cool guys are the ones who wear hats! Because you don't dance with a hat on unless you think you're the bee's knees (regardless of whether you are or not!) ;)

Watched MJ's This Is It and during the Smooth Criminal bit couldn't help thinking "hat's are so cool, why don't guys wear them any more".

And, and, and...my definition of cool is Lucas from Spooks...Now I see him with a hat, with a gun and a wicked piece of slow tango. Yummmmmmmmm!!!! 8-):tongue:

[Heather2007]

ie: you may think you're the bees-knees and have the audacity to wear a hat but you may find that Like Steve Martin in the jerk, that you're not black nor cool.

ha, ha, ha...

Really (for me) Coolness is a mental thing rather than a sartorial thing. One pertaining a deep sense of one's own ability, maybe with a hint of arrogance (just a hint, mind) and has no yearn to be in the middle of it all, quite content in the fact that joy can be had from the sidelines...

[dchester]

Watched MJ's This Is It and during the Smooth Criminal bit couldn't help thinking "hat's are so cool, why don't guys wear them any more". I wear hats a fair amount, but less so when dancing, as it makes me get too hot.

[Heather2007]

I wear hats a fair amount, but less so when dancing, as it makes me get too hot.

:tongue::kissme::wink:

[bordertangoman]

I wear hats a fair amount, but less so when dancing, as it makes me get too hot.

I think we need a hats thread, even if its not related to tango

I have a fedora, a panama, a Tilley, a baseball cap, a boblly tasselly woolly hat, on ol' fashioned bobble hat, an Army&Navy Ferrillo Hill St Blues type hat,

[AndaBien]

Sometimes I really enjoy dancing on a crowded floor, if the other dancers are considerate and skillful. I can get into the flow with the other couples around me, and if there is little space it stimulates creativity on my part. It's often quite nice to get in between two other skilled leaders and create a train. Sometimes I note who is in front and behind me in the line and can predict a good dance.

As for challenge, I don't find it necessary for the type of zone that I enjoy. I dance a very simple dance, but because of it's simplicity, it enables me to get more fully into every movement.

[Captain Jep]

I think we need a hats thread, even if its not related to tango

I have a fedora, a panama, a Tilley, a baseball cap, a boblly tasselly woolly hat, on ol' fashioned bobble hat, an Army&Navy Ferrillo Hill St Blues type hat,

Heh show off! I've got a Bavarian hat with a feather in it, and a cowboy hat with a flashing LED display on front of a red heart (call me the "love cowboy" :p )

[bordertangoman]

Thats it I'm going to organise a fancy dress hat milonga; with a prize for the couple who can dance close embrace wearing sombreros!

[Joy In Motion]

a slight tangent; further to coolness; in the uk my perception is that the cool guys aren't dancing tango; they're dancing salsa, reggaeton, hip-hop, kizomba and maybe ceroc ( DB are you cool?)

What's your definition of coolness? My perception is that it means you're very aware of your skill level and, most crucially, you don't give a rat's b*m what anyone thinks of you.

The concept of coolness that Steve and I were discussing is very different than what you understand by the slang word that you hear all the time. If you are interested in this concept, you may want to read John Chernoff and Robert Farris Thompson (he doesn't mention it in his book on tango but he does in the ones on African art). Actually, Wikipedia does a half-way decent job of summarizing if you want some quick sound bytes. Check out the section labeled "Africa and the African Diaspora" at this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_(aesthetic)).

Coolness is a very deep concept that greatly relates to character and morality in addition to aesthetics and composure. It is a physical, mental, and spiritual quality.

[opendoor]

... but hadnt even learnt to cross...

The tangodiscovery (http://www.tangodiscovery.com) girls always do not know the cross (Mauricio Castro Syllabus). But nevertheless I like dancing with them. And if you lead the cross, they can dance it.

[Light Sleeper]

aha but coolness is subject to the Johari Window Defenestration Effect;

ie: you may think you're the bees-knees and have the audacity to wear a hat but you may find that Like Steve Martin in the jerk, that you're not black nor cool.

Hehehe! Check out the saxophonist at 0.28, he's black, he wears a hat and he's as cool as .... well, something very, very cool ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jghf1dqRBHo

Watched MJ's This Is It and during the Smooth Criminal bit couldn't help thinking "hat's are so cool, why don't guys wear them any more".

And, and, and...my definition of cool is Lucas from Spooks...Now I see him with a hat, with a gun and a wicked piece of slow tango. Yummmmmmmmm!!!! 8-):tongue:

Speaking of yum - when the heck are we getting Mad Men season 3????!!!!

Thats it I'm going to organise a fancy dress hat milonga; with a prize for the couple who can dance close embrace wearing sombreros!

Ha ha ha ha!

ha, ha, ha...

Really (for me) Coolness is a mental thing rather than a sartorial thing. One pertaining a deep sense of one's own ability, maybe with a hint of arrogance (just a hint, mind) and has no yearn to be in the middle of it all, quite content in the fact that joy can be had from the sidelines...

Ooooh, yes!!!
I want to be cool, please sir!!

[bordertangoman]

Hehehe! Check out the saxophonist at 0.28, he's black, he wears a hat and he's as cool as .... well, something very, very cool ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jghf1dqRBHo


Ooooh, yes!!!
I want to be cool, please sir!!
how to play the saxophone ( and be cool)......
http://www.danceforums.com/showthread.php?p=745093#post745093

[jantango]

Thats it I'm going to organise a fancy dress hat milonga; with a prize for the couple who can dance close embrace wearing sombreros!


When will the music of tango be more important than what one wears to a milonga?

[Peaches]

When will the music of tango be more important than what one wears to a milonga?
So, it would be OK for someone to dress casually (say, nice jeans and nice shirt) so long as the music is great (aka: traditional ONLY*)?

*Not necessarily my definition of great.

[Captain Jep]

So, it would be OK for someone to dress casually (say, nice jeans and nice shirt) so long as the music is great (aka: traditional ONLY*)?

*Not necessarily my definition of great.

Keep your hat on , Peaches :p

[jantango]

So, it would be OK for someone to dress casually (say, nice jeans and nice shirt) so long as the music is great (aka: traditional ONLY*)?

*Not necessarily my definition of great.


Truly a rebel without a clue.

[Zoopsia59]

Thats it I'm going to organise a fancy dress hat milonga; with a prize for the couple who can dance close embrace wearing sombreros!

This reminded me of the video clip of the guy dancing with flippers....

[Dave Bailey]

a slight tangent; further to coolness; in the uk my perception is that the cool guys aren't dancing tango; they're dancing salsa, reggaeton, hip-hop, kizomba and maybe ceroc ( DB are you cool?)
Bloody freezing at the moment. Should turn the heating on I guess...

But as I've moved from ceroc to salsa to tango, I suspect I'm getting progressively less cool. Which is cool by me.

Or, to paraphrase the Monks Of Cool:
"When asked what is the coolest dance, the only correct answer was 'Dude, the one that I do' " :cool:

Sorry, was there a thread topic somewhere?

[Dave Bailey]

The cool guys are the ones who wear hats! Because you don't dance with a hat on unless you think you're the bee's knees (regardless of whether you are or not!) ;)
Christ, don't get me started on hats.

They Are Not Cool.

[Madahlia]

Christ, don't get me started on hats.

They Are Not Cool.

Too right. There are more prats in hats in AT than any other dance form.

a slight tangent; further to coolness; in the uk my perception is that the cool guys aren't dancing tango; they're dancing salsa, reggaeton, hip-hop, kizomba and maybe ceroc ( DB are you cool?)

I'd be very surprised to find many cool people dancing Ceroc.

I think DB's cool, and know several other people who think so!

[Peaches]

Really!?! I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've run across people wearing hats. Actually, perhaps on one finger...there's just one guy who wears the same hat regardless of time or place.

[Zoopsia59]

The tangodiscovery (http://www.tangodiscovery.com) girls always do not know the cross (Mauricio Castro Syllabus). But nevertheless I like dancing with them. And if you lead the cross, they can dance it.

(my bold)

I think you've actually just raised a topic (perhaps for another thread) on whether the cross is led or automatic. If they do it when you lead it, then obviously they DO know the cross.

It sounds like they are coming from the tradition of the cross being led, not an automatic thing that followers are supposed to do regardless of whether the leader indicates a cross.

[Dave Bailey]

I'd be very surprised to find many cool people dancing Ceroc.

I think DB's cool, and know several other people who think so!
Awww.... I'm almost tempted to go up to Cambridge now.

Well, almost.

[Captain Jep]

Get some sleep and come to my do instead ;)

[Dave Bailey]

Get some sleep and come to my do instead ;)
I spent 3 years of my life in Canterbury thank you. :p

[Captain Jep]

I spent 3 years of my life in Canterbury thank you. :p

yep the best ones :p