Who is correct?

[bonpon]

Hi all,

I just started dancing ballroom. I am very technical person, and I like to learn the correct technique from the start.

Recently, I bought Dance Vision DVDs Bronze level. And the problem I am having is that sometimes I found the steps to be different than what I am being taught.

For example, my teacher taught me that in Viennese Waltz, the reverse turn, I have to start at line of dance, step left foot, do not start to turn on count 1. Then start to turn on count 2 and finish at count 3 facing the back line of dance.

However in dancevision DVD, it said to start the dance on diagonal, start to turn on count 1 and finish on count 3 facing back of diagonal.

So I am torn of which way I should learn?

I also remember that when I started doing a simple Waltz hesitation step, the teacher said do not sway, but later I found out that the reason she told me not to sway is because so that I can concentrate on something else.

Please help. I just don't want to offend my teacher in anyway.

Thanks!

Bonpon

[White Chacha]

...However in dancevision DVD, it said to start the dance on diagonal, start to turn on count 1 and finish on count 3 facing back of diagonal.

...

These are the orientations I learned.

[BlueBambue]

These are the orientations I learned.

same here.

On the question of sway on the hesitation: it is very likely that there are other things you need to work on before any sway did would come from the right place and not be a forced movement.

[suburbaknght]

Several points:

1) The version presented in a syllabus, whether a video or written syllabus, is the standard version. What your teacher says may seem to be a contradiction but is, more likely, a modified version of the syllabus version. It may be simplified to make it easier to learn, or gussied up to be more interesting, but it is based on the same step. In regard to the reverse turn, it starts facing diagonal wall but there is a 1/8 turn L before the first step so the first step will actually go down the line of dance.

2) The Dance Vision videos are intended to compliment the written syllabus, not replace it. I'd strongly recommend getting the written syllabus as well. In cases where there is a discrepancy between the written and the video, the written takes precedence. For example, the video has step 4, the closed twinkle, begin facing diagonal wall but the written syllabus has it begin facing line of dance. The default version should begin facing line of dance (though, like all twinkles, can easily be modified to begin facing a diagonal).

3) Discuss the differences with your teacher! Most teachers are thrilled to have students as interested and serious about their dancing as you are, and will be happy to explain why they're teaching something different from the official version. Note that if your teacher is using a syllabus other than Dance Vision that may play into things, though one of the great things about Dance Vision is that it is deliberately designed to be compatible with other syllabi (when I worked for a franchise, which did not publish its official syllabus, I directed interested students towards Dance Vision because their syllabus was closest to ours).

[bonpon]

My teacher is not using any syllabus. As far as I know, I think most of her student is aimed for social dance. As far as I know, she was trained in international style.

I guess is what I am asking is whether it is ok for beginner to ask question like these? I am so afraid that my teacher will think "who are you to question my teaching since you are just a beginner"?

Is it ok to ask? What are your thought?

[suburbaknght]

Not to come off too strongly, but:

Never stay with a teacher who won't allow you to ask questions.

The teacher is there to help you learn. Questions are part of the learning process and any good teacher will be open to questions. You should be respectful, of course. Don't interrupt class and say, "You said X and the video shows Y. You're wrong." Do speak to her her after class and say something like, "I know you said X but I was watching a video where the instructor said Y. Why would they say that?"

Teachers like when students ask questions. It shows they're engaged and are thinking about the material. We like when students bring in outside resources. It shows they're committed.

[Chris Stratton]

The question that has not been asked is "turn or do not turn what?"

The subtleties of the answer to that will take a while to master, and will reveal that both sources contain some truth but simplify much out.

[Warren J. Dew]

So I am torn of which way I should learn?

Learn the way the teacher tells you. They are both aiming for the same thing anyway: progression in a straight line down line of dance, with a constant rotation.

[latingal]

By the way, welcome to DF bonpon!

[Chiron]

Learn the way the teacher tells you. They are both aiming for the same thing anyway: progression in a straight line down line of dance, with a constant rotation.

I second this...

But you should also ask your teacher questions, you'll learn a lot more. I think every good teacher I've known (not just dance) loves questions.

[tangotime]

My teacher is not using any syllabus. As far as I know, I think most of her student is aimed for social dance. As far as I know, she was trained in international style.

I guess is what I am asking is whether it is ok for beginner to ask question like these? I am so afraid that my teacher will think "who are you to question my teaching since you are just a beginner"?

Is it ok to ask? What are your thought?


I,m sure your teacher is "using " some form of syl... the Q is..Which one ?.. and are they Amer. or Eurpean trained ? ..it may have a bearing on the concepts..

There are 2 versions of V.W. ( and if you are a beginner.. VW ? ) one is Amer.style the other , Intern. , similar in content to a small degree, at basic level, and different in some techniques..ask them to show you the differences.

And.. NEVER stop asking Q..

[madmaximus]

...( and if you are a beginner.. VW ? )...

Funny, I was thinking the same thing...







m

[samina]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing...


i'm missing the distinction... :confused:

[TinyDancer109]

i'm missing the distinction... :confused:

Normally VW is not taught to beginners... usually only after some solid foundation in W,F,T

[fascination]

dangerous woman

[samina]

Normally VW is not taught to beginners... usually only after some solid foundation in W,F,T

that was how it worked for me, thankfully. just missing the V.W. vs VW... joke, i guess?

[TinyDancer109]

that was how it worked for me, thankfully. just missing the V.W. vs VW... joke, i guess?

Oh, my mistake! I didn't even notice that :oops:... i thought the comment was in regards to teaching VW to a beginner at all

[suburbaknght]

I actually had a big post about teaching Viennese to beginners on my personal blog. Let me copy the relevant areas:

-----

I can't recall exactly when it happened, but at some point Viennese waltz became one of my Big Goals in dance. I wanted this dance. For whatever reason, it took a very prominent place in my mind as a dance that called to me. Unfortunately, the opportunities to learn it were slim. There's very little Viennese competition in bronze, so when I was in Madison none of my classes were teaching it. [My previous franchise] considers Viennese to be an advanced dance and won't teach it to students until they're at least halfway through the entire bronze program; since I was a new student specialist I never taught Viennese and hence received very little training in it. Still, I persevered in independent study and private lessons outside the studio, and finally succeeded in developing a passable social Viennese about August of last year. Since beginning my certification training, my Viennese ability has increased by leaps and bounds. This pleases me immensely.

Contrary to what many teachers claim, Viennese is actually a very simple dance. The core steps (hesitations, reverse turns, natural turns, and change steps) are not particularly intricate and there are only a few techniques (footwork, driving legs, contra body motion, frame, and sway) that are required to make the dance function. The difficulty is that there is no room for error. If a single step is out of place or any of those techniques are not present then the dance will feel labored at best and crash to a halt at worst.

The more I learn Viennese, the more I am convinced that this required precision, and not any inherent difficulty in the dance. Most ballroom studios in the U.S. will refuse to teach Viennese to beginners, something that we have discussed before. I am now convinced this is a marketing decision. Learning Viennese requires of repetition more than anything else, and lots of it. Most beginners are turned off by the amount of raw drilling required to learn the dance and would not complete the program, so ballroom studios direct them to other dances. If they lose a few dancers who had been set on Viennese (like W----), it's still a net gain since they direct students into other dances who would have been turned off by the process of learning Viennese.

I think this is a bad process. New students can learn Viennese. In the past few months I have taught Viennese to two single dancers and one couple. The single dancers had limited experience with other dances (one only a smattering of slow waltz, tango, west coast, and hustle; the other had extensive experience with Lindy hop and Argentine tango but only limited experience with ballroom), while the couple had no dance experience at all. The results have been quite encouraging, far better than what I was lead to believe would be the result, even if none of them are set to win any competitions. Clearly Viennese can be taught to beginners, so now the questions are A) should it be taught and B) how should one teach it?

I still believe that beginners should be steered to dances other than Viennese. While the complete newbie couple learned the dance, they did not do nearly as well as the single dancers. That said, if a beginner is set on learning Viennese, a teacher should warn them of what it will entail and then proceed if the student is still on board. Quite frankly, there are reasons a student may want or need to learn Viennese. No one getting married wants to be told they can't use a song their heart is set on, there are many events that feature Viennese waltz dancing, or perhaps the student is traveling to an area where Viennese is the expected social dance (like Austria). The teacher has a responsibility to help the student reach his or her goals, even if those goals are harder than other students' goals.

That said, the process of teaching Viennese to a beginner is different than teaching a more experienced dancer. All the rules about teaching beginners still apply (proceed slowly, find creative ways to get the student to practice the core material, etc.), but the situation requires special attention. I would not recommend beginner Viennese waltz students be permitted in group classes for the dance unless those classes are specifically targeted for beginners. It is physically painful dancing Viennese with someone who doesn't know what he or she is doing, and any teacher who permits beginning dancers in those group classes is doing a disservice to the other students who attend the class expecting a minimum level of training among the other students. Instead, beginner dancers who insist on learning Viennese waltz should be informed they will need to learn through private lessons until they are judged ready for the group classes, with the commensurate higher costs.

I've also been thinking about the character of Viennese waltz. As I remarked to A---- yesterday, Viennese waltz is an anomaly. Most international dances are intended for competition or performance rather than social dancing, while most American dances are intended for social dancing rather than competition or performance. The exception is Viennese waltz. International Viennese is incredibly simple - it only has nine figures in the entire syllabus though typically only four are used: natural turns, reverse turns, forward change steps, and back change steps - and competitions are focused on the level of precision executing those steps. Conversely, American Viennese waltz includes a dozens of figures, most of which are impractical on a social dance floor and are almost impossible to lead but look beautiful when properly executed. The result is that international is best suited for social dancing where its simplicity becomes an asset, while American is best for performance and competition where its flourishes and patterns can be used and enjoyed by both the dancers and the audience.

When I think about Viennese waltz, and American Viennese waltz in particular, I don't think of it as a social dance. Part of that is a legacy of the pedestal that Viennese waltz has been placed on, but it is also because when you do see it danced to its top level it doesn't look like a social dance. When I see a championship level waltz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLaE2dXm8Sc) I see something that looks like it comes from a social floor, even if it is bigger and better than anyone (even those dancers) will ever dance on a social floor. When I see a championship level Viennese waltz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGk4RdbazBo), it is always so intricate for the speed that I can never envision it being used socially. The feel is of performance, but is also of idealism. I often say that while slow waltz can feel romantic, the main theme of slow waltz is not romance but of dreaminess. Slow waltz is a dream, whether beautiful or loving or joyful. Viennese waltz is also a dream, but its the dream of a perfect waltz.

This is not to say that American Viennese waltz cannot be done socially - it can - but it aspires to something else.

Here's one that I really like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlNTvZ1l7so

[tangotime]

New students can learn Viennese.
The issue is not about capability... but... practicality... one has to consider, that its "entry " into the B/room world was initially moreso as a Comp. dance ( like P.D. );there is little opportunity ( in most countries ), to practice ones skills outside of a studio situation.

[waltzguy]

I like the read, suburba

[Miss White]

Learn the way the teacher tells you. They are both aiming for the same thing anyway: progression in a straight line down line of dance, with a constant rotation.

As my teacher taught me, there is NO rotation in vieneze walts (except for that spinning figure that advanced couples do in the middle ... don't remember the name of it). Rotation is when one side moves forward, and the other side moves backwards. In vieneze walts this never happens - always one side is moving forward, and the other either stays where it is or starts movin forward, too. So if we are doing the "right turn" facing the dance line, first our right side is moving forward (1), then left side is moving forward (2), then we gather the right leg (3). The change of sides happens between 1 and 2, and there is NO rotation there.

This is why vieneze walts is so difficult to learn for beginners - they are not used to thinking in terms of moving their sides, so they end up... rotating, rotating, rotating.... And it look horrible... And then it's hard for them to learn the correct way of dancing this dance.

[fascination]

having read through this again...there are, of course, many factors that are hard to assess at play....I can't judge the calibre of the OP's instructor from here, nor the reason they may or may not have decided to proceed in a particular vein....but I think there are some bottom line things that persons like OP should bear in mind;

while precision is important and you definately want to go with being able to trust the person instructing you, b/c the folks on the video aren't on your lesson, it is important to appreciate that what you hear at one point in your dancing will get de-constructed and re-built many many, many times over the course of your dancing so the less rigid you are in how you view and recieve these concepts, the better able you will be to flex when, due to progress or different instruction, you are given seemingly conflicting info.

[suburbaknght]

the less rigid you are in how you view and recieve these concepts, the better able you will be to flex when, due to progress or different instruction, you are given seemingly conflicting info.
I'm reminded of one of my favorite zen stories (http://www-usr.rider.edu/%7Esuler/zenstory/impteach.html):

A renowned Zen master said that his greatest teaching was this: Buddha is your own mind. So impressed by how profound this idea was, one monk decided to leave the monastery and retreat to the wilderness to meditate on this insight. There he spent 20 years as a hermit probing the great teaching.

One day he met another monk who was traveling through the forest. Quickly the hermit monk learned that the traveler also had studied under the same Zen master. "Please, tell me what you know of the master's greatest teaching." The traveler's eyes lit up, "Ah, the master has been very clear about this. He says that his greatest teaching is this: Buddha is NOT your own mind."

[fascination]

Love it

oddly enough it reminds me most of a book, w/ a heavy Eastern influence, in which the author says, once you have experienced this book, throw it away or it will become your enemy

[chachachacat]

When I taught at AM many moons ago, VW was only in the silver syllabus, not even available in bronze. Same for bolero.

[drejenpha]

When I taught at AM many moons ago, VW was only in the silver syllabus, not even available in bronze. Same for bolero.

I need to learn bolero... turn it into a 3 couple final instead of a 2 couple final.

[suburbaknght]

When I taught at AM many moons ago, VW was only in the silver syllabus, not even available in bronze. Same for bolero.
AM has a bronze VW and bolero, but only bronze 3 & 4.

[tangotime]

When I taught at AM many moons ago, VW was only in the silver syllabus, not even available in bronze. Same for bolero.


And before that.. it was only in Gold...