How to lead someone who doesn't know salsa ??

[dessaix]

Hello, I have recently started going to clubs regularly. I can dance well as long as the girl knows basic salsa but sometimes I go alone and take out random girls from the floor and sometimes (most of the time) they don't know how to dance salsa.

I have a big problem dancing when my partner doesnt know how to even though I try my best to let her follow. I have seen some people who are able to do this but it just doesnt come out for me or i have to practice it.

Any suggestions ??

I also have a hard time when its too crowded and the moves just get lost.. :roll:

[Sagitta]

Each person is different. I find sometimes that I have to swing our arms along with the feet back and forth. Make the follow relax and look up and there is no problem in doing the basic.

Then different people adapt to different basic styles. If the person is kind of bouncy do cuban/Brazillian style. If a person is smoother such as a Lindy/WCS person then a slot like style works better.

Then even the worst followers can do NYorkers, or back breaks. From a back break, you can do a turn and then turn the follow your right hand...and basics once again... From a NYorker you can lead the follow into a R turn pretty easily using both your hands to guide the person.

When the floor gets crowded steps and moves become smaller. That's all. You do tight moves by reducing your arm extensions and decreasing your step size. It's a good idea to practice this when the floor ins't too crowded so when it is you are prepared.

[salsachinita]

If the person is kind of bouncy do cuban/Brazillian style. If a person is smoother such as a Lindy/WCS person then a slot like style works better.

:shock: Salsa Brazilian style :shock: ?

:oops: As far as I know Cuban has never been bouncy (Columbian, maybe, with little hops from time to time), isn't Lindy more of a bouncy kinda dance :oops: ......?

[MacMoto]

I must say that one of my pet peeves at clubs is seeing girls who've obviously never danced salsa before put through complicated turn patterns by salsa dancers. It makes the girls look bad. They look embarrased and self-conscious. It also makes the guys look bad (in the sense of mean and insensitive -- the leader's job is to make the partner look good!).

When asking random girls to dance, start with basic stuff first to see if she can follow it. If your partner clearly doesn't know salsa at all, teach her rather than try to dance with her. Teach her the basic steps and maybe some very simple turns. Be patient and encouraging. Don't rush. Then the girl will look happy at the end of the 3 minutes, and you will come across as a nice guy.

Another thing you could do: when asking someone to dance, ask "do you dance salsa?" instead of "would you like to dance?"
Saves a lot of frustration and embarrassment.

[danceguy]

Hi Dessaix,

I'd say first and foremost, do the basic! :wink:

If the lady is eager to learn, give her a few pointers, perhaps help her find the beat, and always encourage her to smile! :P

The most important part for her (or anybody) to enjoy the dance is to want to learn it! Many times I see girls at the clubs who are just their to drink and flirt (ie "bar bunnies") and usually they have no interest in learning how to dance. Mostly they are drunk, and just acting goofy with their friends (our club was full of them last night). These types I avoid since mostly guys and gals like this just want to goof off and if they are too inebriated...dancing with them won't be very enjoyable. Leading a beginner is one thing, but leading a beginner who's wasted and stumbling around can be a total nightmare! :shock: :? :shock:

Try doing the side basic...perhaps this will feel more natural to them. Do the basic in a circle, and if you try some simple turns...make sure you use your other hand to gently guide them where to go and keep them safe from losing their balance or falling. And if the floor is crowded, you will need to pay extra close attention they don't bump into someone or step too far. They may or may not be aware of their spatial relationship to everyone around them.

As MacMoto mentioned, many guys will just use beginners to show off their moves...especially if the girl is really attractive. I don't know about you, but that's not my personal style. :?

Many other factors come into play...what kind of shape is the lady in...has she done other dances? I've found women who've taken lessons for months will mess up the follow for a simple CBL, while a complete novice will follow it perfectly. You never know until you try...hence one of the reasons I love to dance with people I've never met. Some of my best dances have been with total beginners...if they smile, laugh, and dance from the heart regardless of their level, you'll have a good time! :D

Another thing to remember, is always be kind to beginners. I remember each and every Salsera who was rude to me while I was starting out...and there are many I'll *NEVER* ask to dance again. For Salsa to grow we need to encourage others to enjoy it with us...so be thoughtful and caring! :P

Best,

SG

[Sagitta]

If the person is kind of bouncy do cuban/Brazillian style. If a person is smoother such as a Lindy/WCS person then a slot like style works better.

:shock: Salsa Brazilian style :shock: ?

:oops: As far as I know Cuban has never been bouncy (Columbian, maybe, with little hops from time to time), isn't Lindy more of a bouncy kinda dance :oops: ......?

Well the lindy in my area is not really bouncy - more smooth. That's what most of the college age kids do and want. I didn't say that any salsa style was bouncy!! :wink: :) Just that a bouncy person gives a really rough ride for the slot style of dancing and other styles are better used to disguise and channel that roughness into proper dancing. And, yes, you can add Columbian to Cuban / Brazillian.

And I've found the same as SG, some ladies who have never done salsa dance better then those who have done some if they are really good follows. And about half the time if I ask someone to dance and she does not know how to she tells me, MacMoto. I think asking a person if you know salsa defeats the purpose of encouraging everyone to get up and dance. It implies a certain skill is a requirement to dance with me. I would only ask that if I didn't have the patience to lead a beginner gently through a dance. I've danced with many who claimed not to know salsa/ merengue/ bachata/ cha cha and had a good time and started other leaders asking these same people to dance. :)

[DiAnAoN1]

Another thing to remember, is always be kind to beginners. I remember each and every Salsera who was rude to me while I was starting out...and there are many I'll *NEVER* ask to dance again. For Salsa to grow we need to encourage others to enjoy it with us...so be thoughtful and caring! :P

Best,

SG

Yeah I agree with scorpionguy just teach her the basic and if she's following well you can throw in a simple right turn, but most importantly be nice to them, most women tend to learn to dance salsa faster than men so when they become great dancers they'll probably remember you as the guy who introduced them to salsa and will ask you to dance. I remember this one guy who insisted on dancing with me (even though I told him that I couldnt dance salsa at the time), well he was very patient and I actually learned a lot from him that night, and now everytime I see him when I go out I smile at him and I ask him to dance, it's funny though because when I first danced with him I thought he was so good but now he's asking me to teach him a couple things :D but even if i become a super advanced dancer I will always ask him to dance because he was one of the first guys that made me feel good while dancing salsa.

[danceguy]

Hi Diana,

Thank you for your post! We really need more women like you in the Salsa scene...so many people forget those that helped us out in the beginning. Most of the ladies I know who started near the same time as me have now developed some attitude as they are usually the center of attention are rarely get to sit down. As such, many times when I ask them to dance they usually agree but seem to think that they are doing me a favor... :roll: :oops:

Sighing and reluctantly saying yes to a dance is never a good thing to do, I'd rather be told no, personally. Thankfully, this doesn't happen all the time...but it seems to be the rule instead of the exception. :?

Hopefully one day I'll be good enough to have them beg me for a dance...and then I can say "Of course I would love to...NOT!" :twisted:

Ah...maybe by then I'll forgive them...that emotion known as compassion runs deep in my veins...;)

SG

[tsb]

I must say that one of my pet peeves at clubs is seeing girls who've obviously never danced salsa before put through complicated turn patterns by salsa dancers. It makes the girls look bad. They look embarrased and self-conscious. It also makes the guys look bad (in the sense of mean and insensitive -- the leader's job is to make the partner look good!).

When asking random girls to dance, start with basic stuff first to see if she can follow it. If your partner clearly doesn't know salsa at all, teach her rather than try to dancewith her. Teach her the basic steps and maybe some very simple turns. Be patient and encouraging. Don't rush. Then the girl will look happy at the end of the 3 minutes, and you will come across as a nice guy.

Another thing you could do: when asking someone to dance, ask "do you dance salsa?" instead of "would you like to dance?"
Saves a lot of frustration and embarrassment.

if i can build on these good points, i personally have had it ingrained into me that you do not teach during a dance (vs. practice in class, etc.) so
i offer some specific things to consider as a means of increasing the clarity of your lead w/minimal force, the goal being to influence your partner into correct footwork/posture/balance,etc.:

- (in closed position) without moving your feet, shift your weight so your partner will able to start back on the correct foot. if she really needs it, shift back & forth in basic rhythm (any step is merely a shift in weight), and wait for her to begin to follow your weight shifts before starting dancing the basic;
- (in open position) moving your/her hands farther away outward (away from in between you) as well as downward will give you more influence over her center of gravity. besides proving especially useful should your partner be wiggling her, er, fundament all over the place in an attempt to imitate cuban motion :P this will also limit the size of her backstep and keep her from getting too far away from you, and also make it easier for you to influence the movement of her feet by steering her body (like steering a bus-sized steering wheel).

(i note that despite these tips, being able to rotate the basic in place could still be a major accomplishment.)

- should your partner follow your signals fairly smoothly up to this point, & make you feel comfortable enough to try to lead a right turn, take care to make sure that she steps towards you on her left foot by guiding her forward with your right hand (open or closed position) and waiting until after she plants her left foot and has her weight over her left foot (and make sure her step toward you isn't too big or it'll take forever for her to shift her weight) before helping her through the turn by additionally guiding her through the turn with gentle force with the right hand - the natural instinct is to try and lead the turn before she places her left foot - or she (reading the turn by the raised arm) will try to anticipate the turn by stepping to her right with her left foot & end up at 10 o'clock instead of directly in front of you.

it is possible to lead a beginner through a CBL, but i've got ribs to tend to, so if you really want some tips on that please pm me. i do recall posting something about that in a past topic though.

[dessaix]

Excellent advice Mac, it was so awkward that it inspired me to post this. Ill try to keep all this in mind but it is kind of hard to try and teach during the dance(i am also a little bit hard of hearing), her friend was telling me to teach her since it is her first time but since I am a rookie to the salsa club scene I was no good at it.

In the end feelings were probably hurt so I want to ensure that such an incident never happens again. The club sucked anyways I thought it would be good as its reputation (Club Mystique in Miami), the new locale is just too small, the dance floor es una mierdita :?

[brujo]

I wouldn't necessarily teach them to step right away in the middle of the dancefloor. It gets in the way of the other dancers, and puts that extra pressure on her to dance.

I find that I can lead Cuban and Colombian styles better with someone who doesn't dance salsa because they are more momentum based and are closer to actual walking around than the slotted styles. With Colombian style, you can tell them to just walk and forget the steps, with NY, you have to explain the stepping, because of the mirroing nature, you are usually finished with the song once you can get the basic step down.

I find that I can get through a lot of moves, but the trick is to be very very clear and supportive in your leading. Instead of just waving your hand and telling them to do a right hand turn, you use your left hand on her back to slowly guide her around. I find that sweetheart-like move with two hands connected work very well with beginners. It is also very easy to do momentum based moves like the around the world and the coca cola because it really depends on your technique, not hers.

[dessaix]

is casino and cuban style the same thing or not.

[SDsalsaguy]

is casino and cuban style the same thing or not.
Yes, Casino = Cuban.

[Sagitta]

Okay, since this topic was started I decided to spend some time tonight paying close attention to follows who don't know dancing and see what techniques I used, what worked and what didn't. I chose a couple deliberately.

I found that whenever I asked someone to dance, who really didn't know, they told me right off the bat that was the case. The one statement that put them at most ease, was, "I know. Let's just have some fun." Both knew a bit of the slot style of dancing salsa but were uncomfortable doing it. I immediately switched to what I consider my blend of Cumbia/forro/Cuban dancing. (Don't ask!!) All the follows immediately relaxed and got it. When they started looking down I told them not to worry about it and just look up and let their feet do their thing. They got into it and started trusting me. While dancing I told them if you feel that I'm pushing too fast/hard you let me know and I'll slow down. Both followers told me that they wanted to learn whatever I could teach. I did give both a taste of what several turns Cuban style was, for instance, but of course they got a little off, as they started worrying a bit of getting back, so I did stick to simple stuff, with plenty of basics inbetween. We did cross-body lead, right turn, two handed turns, back breaks, and just some basics. Many ways to dance the basic, I've discovered. Open position with hands moving in different ways to the music....

Oh yes, I danced two songs with each I think. I could have danced 6-10 songs with each easily, but I like dancing with a variety of poeple, so only two songs.

On contraire to your experience dessaix both beginners had a blast. They had grins on their face and you could tell they were thrilled to be up and dancing. They loved the moves and doing what they had seen people do, but they also loved the basic as I mixed it up.


Let em see if I can sort of describe the sort of thing I do to put in variety. Do the hand thing in open, go into closed then go to the left with feet going left, right, left (not salsa side basic, but more cumbia/forro style), then go right, (one basic)go forward...sneak in a real slot-like salsa basic, and then two and they don't even realize it...left, right left in a clockwise turn while holding follow tight and right left right (one basic) then back and forward for one basic, lead into back breaks using hand to move follow from side to side, right hand, left hand, right hand, and use last half of second basic to get into closed, then move left and right (one basic)forward and back basic to slide into open position (two at least), and do back breaks (definitely cuban style what I did there) and instead of doing turns at the end of a basic, grab both hands and just do a back break straight back sliding into closed...Alternatively one turn, followers back caught by right hand and so we are in closed where she immediately feels that we have changed and what we are doing. I don't think any dance went like that, but gives an idea of the variety of things I did without any turns as such, though I did throw in a few turns. Difficult to explain really.


Both followers could follow multiple turns but I could tell that here it got a little confusing so I did not do them. Anyway both ladies connected with me, and I connected with them. I couldn't do fancy moves, such as a CBL with inside turn guided with hand on the waist (first half of basic) and leg(second half of basic) , but you know for me dancing isn't about fancy moves. :oops: :D

[MacMoto]

Something that's just occurred to me which I think may be worth a mention:

Women who have absolutely no experience of salsa dancing often have very little experience of partner dancing either and not used to the idea of dancing in an embrace of a complete stranger. Some girls may be freaked out by closed hold, and if your partner is worried about her personal space, she will not follow you well. Open position (hand-to-hand hold) is generally more comfortable for someone new to partner dancing. When you go for closed hold, make sure you don't get too close and pay close attention to your partner's reaction.

[Sagitta]

Good advice MacMoto. Something I do for all those whom I dance with. Always see what is comfortable for both of you, with the partner desiring the most open position getting what he/she wants.

This is the way it goes. Get a girl who has only danced with boyfriend so really does not know to follow, and she often will cling to you. You want close, get her. Okay, but not really want I want.

Most complete beginners who relax will go as close as you want them to go without any problems (Of course I'm neevr sleazy, so that helps).

Those with some experience either will have fixed notions and will be firm or are flexible as long as you are clear that your actions are due to dance/music and not anything else. I prefer flexible. But I don't want teh person I dance with ever to feel uncomfortable.

[dessaix]

I am obviously a rookie and have much to work on. I am not familiar with any other style but casino. :roll:

what is slot style? is that like rumba where you dance to a square like path ?

[tj]

what is slot style?

It means most of your movement is along a straight line of dance. From what I understand it is influenced by West Coast Swing. Basically, the follow travels along the line of dance, while the lead gets out of the way.

In casino, there's the tendency to go circular especially with all of the hecho moves (like vacilala, sombrero, setenta, etc.) when not dancing in a rueda.

If you need to visualize it, here's a clip. (http://www.salsamafia.com/video/Salsa_Int10.wmv)

[Sagitta]

I am obviously a rookie and have much to work on. I am not familiar with any other style but casino. :roll:

what is slot style? is that like rumba where you dance to a square like path ?

Stick to casino. Most people seem to get that sort of style easier then the slot style.

[jamaicanspice]

hmmmmm :roll: so like I'm reading these posts and I've noticed that I haven't seen anything referring to situatiopns where it's the FOLLOWER who hsa to contend with a lead that doesn't lead well...or only knows basic...and therefore cannot lead well...or just can't dance. Any advice for this? :?

[SDsalsaguy]

Stick to casino. Most people seem to get that sort of style easier then the slot style.
I take exception to this comment. Stick to whatever style you like! And, while many people may be able to do the very basic of Casino easier, I also find that Casino lends itself more to push/pull instead of lead/follow with beginers as well.

[danceguy]

hmmmmm so like I'm reading these posts and I've noticed that I haven't seen anything referring to situatiopns where it's the FOLLOWER who hsa to contend with a lead that doesn't lead well...or only knows basic...and therefore cannot lead well...or just can't dance. Any advice for this?

Sure, go ask someone else to dance! :D

SG

[MacMoto]

hmmmmm :roll: so like I'm reading these posts and I've noticed that I haven't seen anything referring to situatiopns where it's the FOLLOWER who hsa to contend with a lead that doesn't lead well...or only knows basic...and therefore cannot lead well...or just can't dance. Any advice for this? :?
When I dance with a guy who does not know salsa at all, I show him the basic step. With a leader who only knows the basic step, I may show him how to lead an underarm turn. If the guy is a beginner but has taken some lessons, I ask him to show me what he has learned. In all cases I say to the leader: "don't worry about not getting it right, just go with the music and have fun." If the guy is smiling at the end of the song, that's mission accomplished. Dancing with an inexperienced leader may not be challenging, but that suits me fine as I don't want to be challenged all the time. I often ask beginner leaders to dance with me at the beginning of a night before I've warmed up and also after a turbo salsa with an advanced leader (so I can get my breath back without sitting out a song).

There are times when I'm asked to dance and then find out the guy doesn't know salsa and isn't interested in learning. When this is the case, I start out by following whatever lead he offers. If it's impossible to follow him (or if he tries to grope), I look for an opportunity to break away and do shines.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I must say that one of my pet peeves at clubs is seeing girls who've obviously never danced salsa before put through complicated turn patterns by salsa dancers. It makes the girls look bad. They look embarrased and self-conscious. It also makes the guys look bad (in the sense of mean and insensitive -- the leader's job is to make the partner look good!).

I agree. I don´t like seeing this sort of thing. He tries to force her to do moves that will make HIM look good. He´s dancing for everyone but her...


Another thing you could do: when asking someone to dance, ask "do you dance salsa?" instead of "would you like to dance?"
Saves a lot of frustration and embarrassment.

Hmm... I will have to disagree with you on this one. I´ve danced with non-dancers a number of times and most of the times it went rather well. I remember several months ago I was at this salsa club. There was a number of non-salseras there who just happened to walk in to check out the club. Anyway, I went up to one of them and asked for a dance (knowing she wasn´t a salsera). She answered, "well I don´t know how to dance". I danced "half" a salsa about half an hour ago for the first time in my life." I told her, "well than I guess it time for your second dance" 8)

I did very simple things at first. When I saw she was understanding the basic step, I ventured into more complicated moves such as dille que nos, enchuffles, simple turns etc. It went rather well. I even felt connection towards the end of the song. :shock: I didn´t say a word to her during the entire song. I loved seeing her big smile at the end of the song. She had really enjoyed it.

Recently, I had 2 salseras tell me that I was the first guy they had ever danced with. This really made me feel GOOD. These are two completely different stories.

The first, went to a salsa club with her boyfriend (which I knew). He introduced her to me and was trying to teach her the basic step (but wasn´t actually dancing with her). He was just parallel to her trying to demonstrate it. He wasn´t very good so he asked if I could dance with her to show how it was done. We danced 2 or 3 songs that night. Fast forward two and a half years... She is now one of the best dancers around. She has really progressed!! She even dances on stage ocassionaly. Anyway, when she sees me at the club, she always ask me for at least 2 dances per night. I would say for essentially 2 reasons:

First of all she never forgot how I was willing to dance with her at a time where she knew nothing. Second of all, we really click when we dance. There is real connection and we flow well together. It´s always a pleasure dancing with her.

The other girl was a different story. She was with a friend and had planned to go to a certain club someplace. On their way they heard salsa music for the first time and decided to walk in. She saw eveyone dancing and having fun and she was waiting for some guy to ask her for a dance. Noone asked that night. A week later she went back to the same club by herself and during that night someone did ask her (it was me :wink: ). She enjoyed it so much that she decided to enroll in salsa classes. Two years later, she is still not a very good dancer (I don´t tell her this though :oops: ), but she still loves it.

These 2 girls still remember me for what I did ages back. WOW!!!

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Hi Diana,

Thank you for your post! We really need more women like you in the Salsa scene...so many people forget those that helped us out in the beginning. Most of the ladies I know who started near the same time as me have now developed some attitude as they are usually the center of attention are rarely get to sit down. As such, many times when I ask them to dance they usually agree but seem to think that they are doing me a favor... :roll: :oops:

Sighing and reluctantly saying yes to a dance is never a good thing to do, I'd rather be told no, personally. Thankfully, this doesn't happen all the time...but it seems to be the rule instead of the exception. :?

Hopefully one day I'll be good enough to have them beg me for a dance...and then I can say "Of course I would love to...NOT!" :twisted:

Ah...maybe by then I'll forgive them...that emotion known as compassion runs deep in my veins...;)

SG

LOL!! This is exactly what happend to me! :D It´s a well known fact that women progress much quicker than men in salsa. However, from my personal experience after a while they stagnate. The guys usually surpass them after a long hard journey (the one´s that don´t get demotivated or quit that is). Then you´ll have all these women who dreaded danced with you begging for a dance. Scorpion, just hang in there, you´ll see... (this is guy talk so I expect all you salseras not to read this) 8)

Well, It´s almost 3:00 in the morning here in Portugal. My brain cells need some rest... Good Night!

[Sagitta]

hmmmmm :roll: so like I'm reading these posts and I've noticed that I haven't seen anything referring to situatiopns where it's the FOLLOWER who hsa to contend with a lead that doesn't lead well...or only knows basic...and therefore cannot lead well...or just can't dance. Any advice for this? :?

So if a leader only knows the basic he cannot lead well? I don't think that they two are synonymous. A person may know a few moves but be able to do them well and lead them well. That person may not do other moves because he has not recahed the stage where he can perform those moves well. Do you equate a good leader with one who knows how to lead many moves well?

I agree that there are leaders who cannot lead well, or those who don't know how to dance. What to do with them? The key is to realize that you only have a couple minutes with this one person, so do your best to make it the best possible experience for both of you.

(1) Backlead? This can help if you just get them on the right track if they wander. A week ago I danced with a guy as a follow, who didn't know how to dance. I backlead the basic and the right and left turns and by the end of the dance he was doing pretty well with the basic, plus right turn. Often a leader may not know what is right, or how something should feel. Showing through backledaing can help, but this must be used judiciously.

(2) As has been mentioned, you can seek opportunities to break away and do shines. Here I agree with MacMoto that this should be done only when the guy doesn't seem interested in learning, or is trying to grope. I say this for the following reason. If the guy is not good he probably cannot really do shines. You separate and he may look lost. I've been there as a salsa leader who does not know much and so I know what it feels like.

The reverse situation is as follows. When I dance with followers who know less then I do and I do shines I often observe that they start looking lost, so I minimize shines, and if I do them I keep them brief. I can feel the perceptible relaxation and renewed enjoyment for such followers, as they almost jump back in my arms. There are some beginner followers who do take to solo dancing, or shines naturally, hence at least one break to check it out.


Right now I haven't danced much as a follower and so really can't comment much, so I'll just end here.

[dessaix]

I went out dancing again this wednesday night. I took your advice and danced with numerous girls at random, I had almost no problem leading them this time. I made sure they kept their chin up and smiled and lead with my arms a little more firm than usual.

i also made sure to ask politely if they knew salsa before letting them loose onto the dance floor :lol:

so far so good i'll see what happens at another club this weekend

[Sagitta]

I went out dancing again this wednesday night. I took your advice and danced with numerous girls at random, I had almost no problem leading them this time. I made sure they kept their chin up and smiled and lead with my arms a little more firm than usual.

i also made sure to ask politely if they knew salsa before letting them loose onto the dance floor :lol:

so far so good i'll see what happens at another club this weekend

Great to hear that you had better experiences this time around. Whatever works for you is good. It's true that if a follower has her head up she is easier to lead. Watching the leaders feet and your own is a lose lose situation. And genuine smiling shows enjoyment. Keep them having fun.

Keep us posted. We all can learn from others new ideas about dancing better with others. And sometimes even hearing something that we know from a different perspective helps.

[tsb]

I am obviously a rookie and have much to work on. I am not familiar with any other style but casino. :roll:

what is slot style? is that like rumba where you dance to a square like path ?

Stick to casino. Most people seem to get that sort of style easier then the slot style.

i think the idea of a slot for salsa is a good way to start as it helps people conceptualize things like a CBL, but as salsa floors tend to be crowded, it's hard to maintain that slot, and more often than not i actually have actually have to practice floorcraft & rotate myself so as to put my partner into the only space available to my left at the end of a CBL so my 'slot' is actually a circle most of the time.

however, i find that folks who do solely casino don't get much chance to work on their lead/follow - which seems to have been one of the primary issues initially here - all the moves are called/choreographed - i recently went to a party where the followers were primarily rueda dancers and almost all of them tried to backlead versions of their rueda moves. the only exception was someone who had a ballroom background and turned out to be a better follower than most.

[danceguy]

LOL!! This is exactly what happend to me! It´s a well known fact that women progress much quicker than men in salsa. However, from my personal experience after a while they stagnate. The guys usually surpass them after a long hard journey (the one´s that don´t get demotivated or quit that is). Then you´ll have all these women who dreaded danced with you begging for a dance. Scorpion, just hang in there, you´ll see... (this is guy talk so I expect all you salseras not to read this)

MLS,

That is awesome! Trust me, operation "ScorpionGuy becomes Mr. Super Suave Salsero" is already in effect. I just had four weekly privates, found an awesome new teacher, and very soon I will be driving to the city to the bigger clubs to get my skills up and meet new people.

Then one day I suppose I will go back to my old venues...but some people there are going to be begging for a loooooong time before I ever dance with them again. :twisted: :wink: :D

SG

[MacMoto]

however, i find that folks who do solely casino don't get much chance to work on their lead/follow - which seems to have been one of the primary issues initially here - all the moves are called/choreographed - i recently went to a party where the followers were primarily rueda dancers and almost of them tried to backlead versions of their rueda moves. <sigh>
I think it's necessary to make a distinction between casino (Cuban style salsa) and rueda (rueda de casino) here. You can dance casino one-on-one, and it's lead and follow just like any other salsa styles. I've danced with many Cuban style dancers without being taught the style, and a good Cuban style leader can lead me through those arm twisting moves without difficulty as long as I keep my arms flexible (perhaps not knowing helps? Hmm :roll:).

As you say, it's a different matter for casino dancers who have learned the style solely or primarily through rueda... Rueda is fun but not a good medium for teaching lead/follow.

[salsachinita]

If it's impossible to follow him (or if he tries to grope), I look for an opportunity to break away and do shines.

This used to be a common mentality regarding shines (known as freestyle back then) in the earlier days of salsa. Connection not good.....? No problems, break away & do your own thing....!

Needless to say it became a sign of "I don't enjoy dancing with you"....!

That was the reason why the old-school taught ones seemed baffled at the recent popularity of shines.

Having said that, I've come to realised that for quality shines, you actually NEED to have better connection with your partner....!

*I mean, we can all do a solo performance while forgetting our partner....but that's not what it's all about, is it....?*

Isn't life full of ironies...?!

[Sagitta]

Ditto to what SC and MacMoto!! I'm in complete agreement, here.