Female leading

[dancin_feet]

Just out of curiosity, how many followers have just gotten up on the floor with another follower at a party / club and started leading? Did you practice beforehand or just fly by the seat of your pants? How successful were you?

Our studio parties are getting a bit light on for leads and I'm finding myself getting frustrated. Think I'll try being a bit cheeky this week and do some of the leading ...... :twisted:

[ShyDancer]

Quite common at my studio for the more advanced females to dance with other girls. I have danced with a few female leads myself, usually in the progressive dances.

I have tried to lead a few times...not ver successful at all :lol: :lol:

But if you think you can lead go for it!

[tj]

Lol! I had a woman lead me last Thursday - it was fun.

[pygmalion]

Just out of curiosity, how many followers have just gotten up on the floor with another follower at a party / club and started leading? Did you practice beforehand or just fly by the seat of your pants? How successful were you?

Our studio parties are getting a bit light on for leads and I'm finding myself getting frustrated. Think I'll try being a bit cheeky this week and do some of the leading ...... :twisted:

Advice from someone who's tried it? Stick with the basics. It's a lot harder than it looks. :oops: :shock: :lol:

[dancin_feet]

Just out of curiosity, how many followers have just gotten up on the floor with another follower at a party / club and started leading? Did you practice beforehand or just fly by the seat of your pants? How successful were you?

Our studio parties are getting a bit light on for leads and I'm finding myself getting frustrated. Think I'll try being a bit cheeky this week and do some of the leading ...... :twisted:

Advice from someone who's tried it? Stick with the basics. It's a lot harder than it looks. :oops: :shock: :lol:

I have been mucking around with the basics at home, ie steps that you can just reverse for the lead. Almost have a cross body lead in most dances working as well, so I'll give it a go this Friday and let you know how it works! My instructor will probably look strangely at me, but then knowing me as he does, he won't be surprised! :lol: :lol:

[pygmalion]

Good luck. Let us know how it goes. :D I'm sure you'll do great! 8)

[Sagitta]

Lol! I had a woman lead me last Thursday - it was fun.

I'm coming where you are. I like to get at least one dance a night as a follow for fun. Didn't get it tonight.

[Sagitta]

I see it happen all the time. For club salsa, lesbians and heterosexuals, and ballroom. (There was this one lesbian couple tonight that I recognized from a latin class a while back.) I see it more often when the two dancers are friends and know each other. I don't see it the other way around, though. Except for my gay friend who will lead me, but he wasn't there tonight. :( (In turn I usually lead him and show him some dancing tricks of mine.) The top two three leaders of whatever dance style will dance with with each other by switching roles back and forth doing a song, never staying in the follow role for the entire song.

[cl5814]

I mainly see female leaders for the swing dances.

[pygmalion]

Yes. Female leads do seem to be more common in the swing community, regardless of sexual orientation. I wonder why.

[natasha]

There is an experienced female dancer at the studio where I take lessons who is learning how to lead. She's doing the basic group lessons right now (probably in addition to some private lessons), and I've danced with her a couple times. She's really good. It was just weird for me because she's tiny (both thin and short) and I was afraid I would break her. :oops: :lol:

[cl5814]

Yes. Female leads do seem to be more common in the swing community, regardless of sexual orientation. I wonder why.

I think the spot dances are easier to learn for the opposite role. You don't have to navigate a "crowded highway" (full dancefloor). Somehow i find it more acceptable for 2 females dancing swing than any of the other dances.

[Kitty]

I mainly see female leaders for the swing dances.

it is easiest for girls to lead swing, in my opinion.



In standard it is difficult to lead well if you are small and light - feels like I'm trying to move a wallor a huge rock(except if I am dancing with an amazing follower).

In cha-cha and rumba, I feel leading is difficult.

In samba to me leading is easier than following - in part because I practiced leading more:-) - guys are always too scared to try samba, so I have to dance it with girls.

[dancin_feet]

Just an update ....

I did some leading at the party this week, led a friend of mine in Cha and Rumba. I found that I adapted surprisingly well, reversing the steps. It's mainly the turning steps that I have problems with, knowing that as a follow you turn one way, but to try to convert that for the lead is where I have my main problem. Anyway I got through an entire song for both dances and it went really well!! Was a lot of fun, we changed leads and both had a go at it. I suppose leading someone that knows what to do as a follow is one thing. Will practice a bit more before I start getting beginners up and leading them!

Looking forward to taking beginner classes again and do the lead role maybe in the next couple of months. :D

[Vin]

I saw the following on t-shirts that a dance couple was wearing(they just dance together, hence dance couple).

Guy's shirt said: Girl's that lead are cool.

Girl's shirt said: Guy's that follow are creepy.

That said I do try and follow whenever I get a chance. But most guys in the community won't lead me(I guess I am not pretty enough for them) and most of the girls don't like leading.
I mostly get to follow when teaching someone how to lead a move.
I switched roles one night with a friend who is a great follow. But she was so used to following that she was leading the moves when she was used to them being led, about 4 beats off.

[dancin_feet]

I switched roles one night with a friend who is a great follow. But she was so used to following that she was leading the moves when she was used to them being led, about 4 beats off.

I have a friend of mine who does that, leads everything the way the follow does it, and it annoys the hell out of me!!! :evil: That's why I have worked on reversing everything so that I can lead it properly. It may be OK for her to lead this way, but for me, I have to do it right.

It's fun to dance with her, but I guess it's just the perfectionist in me that would prefer it done right. :D

[KevinL]

I saw the following on t-shirts that a dance couple was wearing(they just dance together, hence dance couple).

Guy's shirt said: Girl's that lead are cool.

Girl's shirt said: Guy's that follow are creepy.

The guys shirt is cool, but the girl's shirt is rude and inapporpriate (in my opinion). It really annoys me.

Kevin

[etchuck]

Yes. Female leads do seem to be more common in the swing community, regardless of sexual orientation. I wonder why.

I think it's been pointed out already. At least with swing, you tend to be in open position a lot. "Sexiness" doesn't exude as much in lindy or ECS. That said, I don't think I know of any female leads in balboa swing.

I have seen a few women dance lead in ballroom competitions and sometimes on the social floor. But usually it's not as common because the variety of dances makes it difficult (I think) for a woman used to following to know how to lead all those dances. Heck it's tough enough for some men. ;)

[Kitty]

and most of the girls don't like leading.

It is not that they don't like it, it is just that they probably don't know how and don't want to waste their time at the dance trying to learn something completely new, and feeling stupid. It is a social dance, not a class - everyone would be dancing whole they'd be struggling to figure this out. No wonder they want just to follow.

Think about it: in classes they pay little attention to the guys part, + it takes time to get used to leading (to caring for anothrew person, and indicating moves in advance) - how much time did it take you to learn? + they have to think about avoiding collisisons - it is something girls never have to do. Girls are not used to think about everything at the same time: normally when I follow I only think about technique and looking good, and sometimes think about matching my partners style. Thinking about figures for girls while dancing is always discouraged!

Also, for many moves that girls can do with a leader, they don't know even the girls part. Therefore they can't just reverse it.

So when you want girls to lead you - give them time to get used to all that thinking. You probably needed time too when you were starting out.

I personally have greatest trouble trying to think about looking good and technique and next step at the same time! How do you guys do it?

[pygmalion]

Good question. I think that's why the initial learning curve seems to so much for challenging for guys.

What go guys think? :roll: :wink:

[KevinL]

What go guys think? :roll: :wink:

I can't answer for anyone else, but...

Are my hands in the right place? Are they to sweaty? Will she mind if I put my hand on the bare skin on her back? Should I put my hand under her hair, or just go straight in and risk pulling it later?

Do I smell bad? Should I have chewed a mint earlier? Screw it, she probably won't notice anyway. Smile dammit, this is supposed to be fun!

Why does she keep coming in front of me? Stay to my right! How do I get her to stay over there without saying something?

What am I going to do first? Is the space clear? Will that couple stop right in front of me? Where is everyone else moving? Where will they go next?

OK, where is the beat... No! Crap I missed it, here it comes again... Why did she start moving, I wasn't ready! Here it comes again...

Then I take my first step and it all starts again. (Assuming that I don't totally lose the music and have to wait for the beat to catch up to me...)

...

And that's just the first step of a basic whatever, adding in the complexity of different alignments and avoiding traffic just makes it more complicated.

Kevin

[Sagitta]

Excuse me!?? I thought that both leader and follow watch out for each other when dancing, collisions and all. :? That definitely comes in useful when the dance floor gets crazy.

[pygmalion]

True. I do look out for the lead. I think most follows do. But pretty much any book or article on ballroom etiquette will tell you that it's the lead's responsibility to protect the follow and try to avoid collisions. All the follow really has to do is follow.

[Kitty]

Excuse me!?? I thought that both leader and follow watch out for each other when dancing, collisions and all. :? That definitely comes in useful when the dance floor gets crazy.

I watch out and adjust the size of steps or push my partner to the side chnaging directions, however, most of the time I'm going backwards so he does most of that work, and also no matter what I don't decide what step comes next, I only can adjust the steps that have been led. So I avoid collisions, but I don't make decisions.

when I said it is difficult to account for traffic for girls who lead, I meant that it is difficult to choose a step. I don't have the skill of figuring out quickly what step will take me where without collision. For guys, I know it is pretty much automatic, for me, I need to stop and think about it. It takes time. By the time I have to make the next step I'm still thinking.

I know the technique, and how to look good and where the girl is supposed to be and so on. I just can't think fast enough what to do next and how lead it on time.

[dancin_feet]

Lots of interesting comments here. I will admit though, I guess it all depends on what you are looking for in your dancing. When in a group class I am constantly listening in on the guys learning their part, just to get an understanding of what he is doing so that I can move with him better.

I actually noticed something in my private lesson and group last night. Since I have started thinking about leading, my awareness of angles and LOD has been awakened. Before I couldn't care less what direction I was facing and whether the lead was using the correct step to get out of a corner, etc, or even whether the angles were right or not. Now I notice that you can use this step to quarter turn out of a corner or another step to face the other direction in a group so that you can practice the nominated step without stopping.

This has really opened my eyes and will improve my understanding of the lead's step choice. I would recommend at least trying it to any follow who is serious about dancing. I'm loving it! :D :wink:

[Sagitta]

It is that sort of wonderful insight that I get from being a follow. Knowing what feels right and what the difference is. I'm gaining an increased sensitivity to my normal role as a leader. I definitely would recommend that follows learn the other role. There actually is a female who wants to learn the leader role in the Monday latin night classes, (as she has a girlfriend I believe), so I danced as a follow tonight. I was teaching her how to do a simple leaders comb, and I could see her working through issues. Anyway, definitely give it a go. :)

[goldfish]

seen lots of jill&jill and jack&jack action in the lindy community and it's awesome! one of the leads i really like is a girl, one head shorter than me, really thin and bouncey as hell. i've seen guys in salsa and lindy follow and it's usually just for laughs -- they'll do all the ladies' styling (like twisting for lindy) and it's fantastic.

actually some of them follow and style better than the female follows :oops:

[Elizabeth]

What go guys think? :roll: :wink:
Why does she keep coming in front of me? Stay to my right! How do I get her to stay over there without saying something?


Keep your left elbow bent at an acute angle.

[Kitty]

What go guys think? :roll: :wink:
Why does she keep coming in front of me? Stay to my right! How do I get her to stay over there without saying something?


Keep your left elbow bent at an acute angle.

!!!

[Chris Stratton]

Keep your left elbow bent at an acute angle.

As with most cooperative fixes, that only helps if the girl cares about where her hand is in relation to her body.

Another cooperative option is to momentarily bring the right hand in and really cup her shoulder, if this works as a reminder and she settles into connection with the hand you then move it towards where you want her, and hope she goes with it.

Generally though these problems seem to come from a lack of awarness of the role of arms in transmitting connection.

[Elizabeth]

Um, Chris, in my experience 9 times out of 10 fixing the guy's arm will fix the problem, at least with beginners. That's because the problem is so often caused by the guy pulling the lady to his left with that arm. Its usually not a hard enough pull to for either partner to be aware of it, but it can be pretty obvious to an outside observer, at least if you look at the lady.

[Chris Stratton]

Um, Chris, in my experience 9 times out of 10 fixing the guy's arm will fix the problem, at least with beginners. That's because the problem is so often caused by the guy pulling the lady to his left with that arm. Its usually not a hard enough pull to for either partner to be aware of it, but it can be pretty obvious to an outside observer, at least if you look at the lady.

With beginners, yes it may be this simple.

With people who have developed strong misconceptions about relative body position, this no longer works. The guy can be using both hands to push the lady to his right, and she will still move to his left.

[Kitty]

Um, Chris, in my experience 9 times out of 10 fixing the guy's arm will fix the problem, at least with beginners. That's because the problem is so often caused by the guy pulling the lady to his left with that arm. Its usually not a hard enough pull to for either partner to be aware of it, but it can be pretty obvious to an outside observer, at least if you look at the lady.

and also, especially in tango, they often have left arm bent, but pull their shoulder behind their back. that creates the same problem.

so I would say there are two common guy's mistakes that cause the girl to come in front of him: not bending left arm and having left upper arm behind their back

[Elizabeth]

With people who have developed strong misconceptions about relative body position, this no longer works. The guy can be using both hands to push the lady to his right, and she will still move to his left.

Well, I'll agree that if the lady isn't following that's a problem. A lady who is following properly will come into position far enough to the man's right if he's leading that properly.

In general when I'm leading (getting back to the orignial topic :D ) I've not had a problem with ladies coming across me. Guys are a problem sometimes because they don't know how to follow, and guys with longer arms than me are especially problematic for the obvious reason.

To answer some earlier questions in this thread, I mostly only lead in the college crowd where no one has a problem with it, and mostly just in group classes where an extra leader is often needed. Being realtively tall helps. I did try leading an adult social dance once during a mixer. Just basic foxtrot, nothing fancy. I tried it because a) I didn't want to be bored during the entire 5+ minute mixer and b) in this older crowd there was a severe shortage of guys, so I was assuming that no one would mind. There was an interesting mix of reactions. The ladies who were better dancers didn't mind one bit and seemed to be having a good time. The ones who were not very good at all didn't seem so thrilled. Then there was the old guy who grabbed me when I was switching partners :evil: Ugh. If I'd wanted to follow, that's what I'd be doing, but he seemed to oblivious to the fact that I might not want to follow anyone else except my competition parnter. I haven't tried that again since.

[pygmalion]

Hmm. You left out the southern belles who only dance when asked by gentlemen. Oh. That's right. Not everybody has southern belles. But, just for the record, there are lots of women, particularly older females, out there, who just don't understand what they perceive to be the gender role reversal.

[DWise1]

That said, I don't think I know of any female leads in balboa swing.

I'm pretty sure it was on DF in the swing section when I first arrived a few or more months ago that the distaff side was singing the praises of "gal bal" and how much they loved leading it. Or it might have been on Balboa Nation; I'm not quite sure.

In intermediate balboa class one day, the teacher teamed up a number of couples to demo what what we'd been covering, including a few gal-gal couples and one guy-guy couple. The gals did a lot better than the guys.

[Sagitta]

That said, I don't think I know of any female leads in balboa swing.

I'm pretty sure it was on DF in the swing section when I first arrived a few or more months ago that the distaff side was singing the praises of "gal bal" and how much they loved leading it. Or it might have been on Balboa Nation; I'm not quite sure.

In intermediate balboa class one day, the teacher teamed up a number of couples to demo what what we'd been covering, including a few gal-gal couples and one guy-guy couple. The gals did a lot better than the guys.

The gal-gals did better probably because they had much more practice at it. :P

Balboa Nation, it must be, as I don't ever remember such a discussion on df. :)

[Spitfire]

I don't think Ive ever been to dance where this does not occur. :wink: