World Salsa Congress Robbed!!!

[brujo]

Got this cryptic email today. What is going on with Albert Torrest?

>EMAIL SNIP>

Hello Everyone,

I do not know if you know about what's going on right now BUT lets support Albert Torres!

The First 400 people who sends Albert $200 will get a Full Event Pass for the 2005 West Coast Salsa Congress!! You will be saving at least $150!!

Lets make sure that we have another wonderful event in Los Angeles

Albert Torres Productions, Inc
2001 S. Barrington Ave, STE 118
Los Angeles, CA 90025

(310) 450-8770 Office

[youngsta]

There was an incident that happened at the Congress this year. A volunteer stole 750-1000 full passes and sold them from a hotel room near HPC. Albert lost about $80,000. He's prosecuting the primary suspect and her accomplice. The full event passes for 2005 are to help get some quick capital. A stopgap if you will until he can hopefully get his money back.

[brujo]

That's pretty disturbing. I wonder if the people buying the full passes knew that they were getting stolen tickets and simply did not care. How were they found out?

[SDsalsaguy]

Geez, that just sucks! I personally feel that the price for congress has become a bit steep, but that's no excuse for thievery! :x :evil:

[brujo]

Plot thickens.

http://www.salserosweb.com/wforum/viewtopic.php?t=6742&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[SDsalsaguy]

WOW...that's some heavy reading! :shock:

If anyone doesn't have time to read the whole thing, here's a direct link to the post from Albert explaining what went down :arrow: http://www.salserosweb.com/wforum/viewtopic.php?p=119726#119726

The whole thing just turns my stomach... and my sympathies and best wishes are with Albert, his family, and his crew... :(

[peachexploration]

The whole thing just turns my stomach... and my sympathies and best wishes are with Albert, his family, and his crew... :(
Ditto! How awful! :evil:

[squirrel]

This is awful! People working hard for the Salsa World get into such trouble! I hope the police find the thieves!

[borikensalsero]

what a joke... to uphold justice by salsalawyer, good thing he isn't representing her second accomplice too... Fair representation, let the system make a fair decision... PLEAZZZ... the best script always wins, it isn't about truth nor fairness, it is about what lying lawyer can be most convincing with their script... That is the justice system, blind to he who has the most money, and best script, as far as truth, who cares, the movie potrayed by A was better than the one by B.... SO A wins....

Ahhhhhh... Please, it's a good thing it didn't happen to me, I would have done like Mealo says in the "Si Te Cojo", I would have given them both a couple of black eyes, and I would be the on being arrested... :evil:

If it was about morals, all morals would say is, you did the crime, you pay the fine... My brother steals from you, I bring him to you, no one has the right to take something from anyone who busts their butt from it.

Other than that, Hope Albert the best. It is a joke that people even think about stealing from our own.

[cocodrilo]

When there's that much money involved, people with less than sincere motives are bound to appear. What's a businessperson to do?
Truly a very sorry situation for Mr Torres, everyone knows how hard he works for these events. :(

[pygmalion]

Yikes! That's awful. A lady who posted on the other board has a point, though. Event insurance may cover some of the financial loss. The bigger problem is the damage within the salsa community. What happens if Mr. Torres decides never to put on another event or to scale back this event, which would be perfectly understandable. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. I hope the bad guys are brought to justice, and soon. Anybody who's familiar with the case, please keep us posted on the details. Somebody belongs behind bars.

[Pacion]

what a joke... to uphold justice by salsalawyer, good thing he isn't representing her second accomplice too... Fair representation, let the system make a fair decision... PLEAZZZ... the best script always wins, it isn't about truth nor fairness, it is about what lying lawyer can be most convincing with their script...

Boriken, she is a friend who called him for help. He is just helping her through the process (I believe she also has a daughter that will need care arrangements). It is my understanding that he is not actually going to be representing her. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place!

I think it is at times like this one really finds out who one's friends are and I do not believe that salsalawyer is the type to drop his friends when in trouble, irrespective of the trouble. So, please cut him some slack. :lol: If you don't, I will find ways to tickle you this evening :twisted:

It is unfortunate, that there are such close connections, ie. the salsa world, she is a friend who, for whatever reason, made a few bad choices.

Yes, the question re the insurance is a good one. However, hindsight is a great teacher and until then, spending '$4,000' on the risk that someone might steal from you/have a financial loss who really likes to think along those lines? Prepare for all 'eventualities' but, when you have worked so hard in a community you believe you know, someone stealing from you with such potentially large 'reward' (or trying to run you down with their car!) is not an 'eventuality/risk' that you contemplate. :(

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and one more thing. (I knew this was one of those topics I wouldn't be able to resist LOL) The people on that other board, especially the one who started the thread, should be very careful to avoid allegations of defamation of character. Not libel, if the charges are true. But defamation of character. These ladies have basically been identified, tried and convicted by the salsa community world wide. That sounds like defamation to me. :roll:

If the ladies wronged Mr. Torres, which it looks like they did, I see two good ways to help. One, buy tickets for next year's event immediately to help with cash flow, if possible. Two, share any information you have with Mr. Torres' representatives or the police department. I'm sure there are probably other things you could do, as well.

[Sabor]

what a joke... to uphold justice by salsalawyer, good thing he isn't representing her second accomplice too... Fair representation, let the system make a fair decision... PLEAZZZ... the best script always wins, it isn't about truth nor fairness, it is about what lying lawyer can be most convincing with their script...

Boriken, u strike me as a nice guy.. so i'm rather dissapointed.. taking this point u made here about a certain character that i had the honor and pleasure of knowing - albeit if only via internet - for around 15 months now.. and that is Reggie aka 'Salsa Lawyer'.. i have to say that you dont know him even in the most limitted of ways to judge him as your comment implys.. or just place him among the badness of the system.. if u read on the related thread u will see that he will not be repreenting the accused in the actual trial.. even if he did i do not see reason for the slight.. i cannot say that i disagree with your general view about the justice system because what u say is prob'ly true world wide.. that maybe so.. but there are decent people out there and yes some of them are lawyers and i BELIEVE salsalawyer to be one of them.. (i also believe that both Pacion and Yougsta hold the same view of him incase i'm being personal or subjective).. and believe me i'm not the kind of guy that says these things about others easily or often..

in general.. i think its best to withhold character opinions simply because u cannot judge anyone u dont know .. and with but general outline views.. supporting Albert on the other hand should be the focuss..

[Pacion]

Yes, I do believe salsalawyer is a decent person, so my comment of being 'caught between a rock and a hard place' was not a flipent one.

Also in Albert's original post on the matter, he said:
Many of the readers of this board were aware of this but were not couragous enough or as one person told me yesterday was having too much fun to anoymously call us and help stop this fraud.

This, funnily enough, no one seems to have commented on. Some people got personal emails/PMs from this person and DID NOTHING. Yes, by all means give Albert support, after the fact, but how about supporting him PRIOR to the fact. I suspect no one imagined the scale of financial loss would have been what it amounts to and that he could have lost his life but still, as a matter of principle? That no one appears to have made an effort to contact Albert and say 'I had x email/PM are you aware of this?'

To me, it is as if the community is trying to bolt the door AFTER the horse has bolted. :(

[pygmalion]

Yes. I noticed that, too, Pacion. To be outraged and supportive after the fact is nice, but to know what was going on and say nothing was just wrong. I wonder how much loss could have been prevented if someone had spoken up on the opening night?

Somebody bought those $80K worth of tickets. They probably didn't realize that their one $75 pass could add up to that much of a difference, but stealing is still stealing. They knew that much.

[borikensalsero]

what a joke... to uphold justice by salsalawyer, good thing he isn't representing her second accomplice too... Fair representation, let the system make a fair decision... PLEAZZZ... the best script always wins, it isn't about truth nor fairness, it is about what lying lawyer can be most convincing with their script...

Boriken, u strike me as a nice guy.. so i'm rather dissapointed.. taking this point u made here about a certain character that i had the honor and pleasure of knowing - albeit if only via internet - for around 15 months now.. and that is Reggie aka 'Salsa Lawyer'.. i have to say that you dont know him even in the most limitted of ways to judge him as your comment implys.. or just place him among the badness of the system.. if u read on the related thread u will see that he will not be repreenting the accused in the actual trial.. even if he did i do not see reason for the slight.. i cannot say that i disagree with your general view about the justice system because what u say is prob'ly true world wide.. that maybe so.. but there are decent people out there and yes some of them are lawyers and i BELIEVE salsalawyer to be one of them.. (i also believe that both Pacion and Yougsta hold the same view of him incase i'm being personal or subjective).. and believe me i'm not the kind of guy that says these things about others easily or often..

in general.. i think its best to withhold character opinions simply because u cannot judge anyone u dont know .. and with but general outline views.. supporting Albert on the other hand should be the focuss..


Maybe so, but my words are directed at what he said, not his character. I didn't say he is a joke, I believe I made no mention of his character in the post.

He can be the nicest person in the world, and if he says something I do not agree with, I'll simply state so... It is a joke because there isn't such a thing as upholding justice, but rather a view based on twists and bends. That statement is a joke. I didn't say anything about his character. If I might have implied so, it was simply words badly chosen on my post. That said, I still stand on the view that upholding justice is a total joke a statement for anyone to make, even the most decent of people.

I've said many horrible staments myself, and if someone calls me out on them, they have every right to do so, even if they lack knowledge of me as a person, it is their right to voice opinion about something they deem incorrect, or simply a joke. There need be no knowledge of a person's character to have an opinion on something the person said, or even represents.... That the views can possibly change upon aqcuaintance, is a different token.

I believe the end of the thread he (SL) said that he will not be representing the second person, but that he will go to court representing his friend... Perhaps, I just read wrong.

So, yes, the judgement was to his statement, not his character. Just like me saying that our excuse to go to war is a JOKE... no mention of Bush's character but his statements...

[Sabor]

I've said many horrible staments myself, and if someone calls me out on them, they have every right to do so, even if they lack knowledge of me as a person, it is their right to voice opinion about something they deem incorrect, or simply a joke. There need be no knowledge of a person's character to have an opinion on something the person said, or even represents.... That the views can possibly change upon aqcuaintance, is a different token.


u see.. for me .. i cannot express opinion/judgement based on another mans opinion/judgement without knowing the person fairly enough or the circumstances.. and putting myself in their position as much as i can discern

to me opinions form views .. forms beliefs.. forms character.. forms the way we view things .. its all related in a cycle and cannot be separated .. just evolving and changing as we live more, see more and know more..
but, again thats just me.. and thats why i find it very hard to carry one view or opinion without considering the other side b4 i voice my own..

so we are different in this respect... nonetheless, thanks for the reply and cheers.

[borikensalsero]

I've said many horrible staments myself, and if someone calls me out on them, they have every right to do so, even if they lack knowledge of me as a person, it is their right to voice opinion about something they deem incorrect, or simply a joke. There need be no knowledge of a person's character to have an opinion on something the person said, or even represents.... That the views can possibly change upon aqcuaintance, is a different token.


u see.. for me .. i cannot express opinion/judgement based on another mans opinion/judgement without knowing the person fairly enough or the circumstances.. and putting myself in their position as much as i can discern

to me opinions form views .. forms beliefs.. forms character.. forms the way we view things .. its all related in a cycle and cannot be separated .. just evolving and changing as we live more, see more and know more..
but, again thats just me.. and thats why i find it very hard to carry one view or opinion without considering the other side b4 i voice my own..

so we are different in this respect... nonetheless, thanks for the reply and cheers.

Very much so, and I understand your stance, and enjoy reading your beliefs... To me, that is exactly what leads to conversation, understanding and growth. had I not made an opinion on him, you would have not reacted with your opinion based on your life's reality, hence causing both of us to interact and learn more about each other, and the cycle of life.

I take my views on opinions as the very first stance on my current reality, or truth about somone or something, from there they constantly evolve as I enteract be it with that person, or the world. Be it a mistake, or not, the ultimate goal is to learn and progress through an ever changing truth. I pay no attention whether it will be a "bad", or "good" interaction for the true purpose is learn.

As they say, there isn't a sole/absolute path, but many of which all eventually lead the an ultimate truth... Hmmm, God, that sounds so different than "Not all roads lead to Rome"... hehe

Sabor, thank you for sharing a bit of your world with me today. Next time, we should have it over beer... Egyptian beer...

Did I mention that me lady love and I are planning to visit either spain or egypt next year, wait, I think we settled for spain then egypt the following year. Hmmmm

[Sabor]

Sabor, thank you for sharing a bit of your world with me today. Next time, we should have it over beer... Egyptian beer...

Did I mention that me lady love and I are planning to visit either spain or egypt next year, wait, I think we settled for spain then egypt the following year. Hmmmm


Thank you boriken.. likewise.

Whichever year u decide on my friend the beer will be here and hopefully.. so will i.. u and the lucky lady are indeed most welcome!

[Pacion]

:shock: As long as the two of you don't get into pinching each other cheeks, can I join you and have a glass of champagne instead of a beer? :D

[pygmalion]

I've been thinking about this all day, and the only possible solutions I can think of to this problem involve increased hassle and/or expense for the organizers and participants next year.

Stuff like no ticket sales at the door, pre-registration with ticket number and a confimation/PIN number, some sort of tamper-proof ticket system...

I thought of a bunch of possible safeguards, but none of them is simple or cheap. :(

[tj]

What a horrible thing! I hope it doesn't affect the future of Albert promoting more congresses.

Thanks for keeping the rest of us posted.



Ok - I've now read enough to feel like I'm current with what's going on... I will say that while I was initially wondering about Reggie, I do think he's doing the right thing as he is friends with the accused.

I do think it's too early to be passing judgment on the whole thing. I say let the law and courts decide on the verdict. Right now, all I see is one side of it, and while it looks pretty cut-n-dry, we shall see.

It's a shame something like this happens. But I think it's typical (although never to as large of a scale as this!), as I personally know how cheap most of us in the salsa scene tend to be. And how there are lots of folk trying to make a quick buck. I even know an instructor who sells pirated music to his students.

The problem is when people cheat the promoters like this, that the scene in the long run suffers. And good grief it's ballsy to be trying to sell stolen passes on the salserosweb forums! It's too bad that it took so long for them to be caught.

Lots of morality questions could be discussed here... and I find it a bit too heavy of a subject to go into great lengths on.

[cocodrilo]

I've been thinking about this all day, and the only possible solutions I can think of to this problem involve increased hassle and/or expense for the organizers and participants next year.

Stuff like no ticket sales at the door, pre-registration with ticket number and a confimation/PIN number, some sort of tamper-proof ticket system...

I thought of a bunch of possible safeguards, but none of them is simple or cheap. :(

When I went to a big salsa event in Osaka a couple of years ago, and I purchased my tickets through an on-line ticket vending machine at a convenience store! Talk about easy and safe! Tickets for Torres' event should be sale at a legitimate agency, and "badges" or "passes" could be issued at the door with those tickets (or vouchers).

[pygmalion]

Yes. They could use ticketmaster and/or some local designated agents with a computerized system. Ticketmaster prints out the tickets and maintains a tracking database. It adds about $5 - $6 to the price of each ticket, but it might be worthwhile anyway. :roll:

[brujo]

What really strikes me about salsa is that it is really a scene, not a community. Sure, there are a lot of great individuals out there. But there never seems to be a sense of unity, with all the egos and cliques that are formed around dance schools, dance styles and musical preferences.

Compared to the lindy hoppers and their exchanges, salsa congresses seem exuberant. You need to get a flight, hotel room, congress passes, etc. There always seems to be someone selling something. Tickets, CDs, t-shirts, dance lessons, etc, etc, etc. The performers are there for fun, initially, but then it feels like 'this is how I am going to sell my class'.

In this spirit, I would have jumped on the discounted tickets like a fat kid on a bag of brownies. I'm sure most of the people who volunteered did not do it for the love of salsa alone, being able to get free entry for 15 hours of their time. Salsa is an expensive hobby, there are lessons, cover charges, clothing, and accomodation expenses to take into account. Sure, it sucks that something like this had to happen to Albert Torres, but I am sure most people have an impression that Albert Torres or David Melendez are just there for business. To steal from them must feel the same way as downloading music or taking extra packets of ketchup from McDonald's. They have so much, why does it matter if we take just a little from them.

How often does the average non-performer go to a congress? Once, twice a year maximum. The superstars who get to teach, travel and 'see their friends'. But I often wonder, how bad are the people around you that you need to be on the road every other weekend. What about building up your local scene and supporting your local musicians. Or trying to bring the musicians into your own city instead of flying to somewhere far away to dance with strangers and show off your mambo lessons.

I am not going to argue morality. Some people think one way, other think another. But this whole salsa congress as a holy pilgrimage thing doesn't make sense. Why can't you just spend all that money and go to one of the mecca's like New York or Cuba? Instead of having all those people in one spot, why not have a travelling tour of musicians, or a featured artist to more cities. But no, such is not the North American mentality. We must have one extra large supersized happy meal weekend with all the fixings, a overdose of salsa in order to feel that we got our money's worth.

[pygmalion]

Thanks for your perspective, brujo. 8) It sounds like you're really telling it like it is, not like it should be. 8)

[cocodrilo]

Very well said, Brujo! My sentiments exactly when it comes down to why I am hesitant to attend a salsa congress- cliques & egos! We have some HUGE to-dos in the salsa scene here in Japan, held in the big cities, and BOY, talk about people ganging together in their little groups. It seemed that people were only dancing with those they KNEW and what good is that for gaining experience(as a dancer) and meeting new people? I know some ladies who have left parties early, frustrated because they haven't been asked to dance(very attractive women, mind you, but also too shy to ask the guys to dance!) :( ...

I also totally agree with what you said about spending big money to get to/attend a congress. Not to mention taking time off work!!! I am working hard to promote latin dance in my community, and by sponsoring parties and events that anyone can easily afford!

[salsachinita]

Well said, Brujo & Cocodrilo....!

I've resisted Congress to date for more or less the same reasons. Good on them for running it like a business, but like any big corporations, it loses out on the humanity side of things. Nature of the beast, unfortunately.

[SDsalsaguy]

Just to update...

Both ATP and Edie have sent out e-mails about the $200 2005 full passes. Al & Edie are also raffling off tickets (for their full 20 DVD set) at $5/ticket to help generate revenue, and Latin Beat Magazine is now offering FREE SUBSCRIPTIONS to the first 100 people who purchase the $200 2005 full passes....

[squirrel]

Brujo, you most certainly have a point! Salsa is no longer a social dance... it's a cow people milk for money! They were talking to make it Dance Sport! (they is the world dance federation... don't remember the name very well...) They want to make Tango Argentino and Hip Hop ballroom styles too! These dances come from the streets... and now they will be regulated!
I'm very sorry for Albert Torres... he's a Salsa promoter... but I think Brujo is also right!

[youngsta]

I love how people bash congresses as if everyone there is some egomaniac salsa superstar. Guess what...the majority of the people there are regular old dancers or music lovers like most of us. No ego at all, just there for the love of the music/dance. I had the pleasure of meeting and dancing with hundreds of very cool, down to earth people from all over the world that share my passion. How can one not want to experience that? If you want to go around looking for the negative side of the experience fine, it's there. It's there in any event where humans gather. It's human nature. But if you attend with open eyes, a open heart, and no agenda it is one of the most amazing experiences ever.

[peachexploration]

...) Argentino and Hip Hop ballroom styles too! These dances come from the streets... and now they will be regulated!
I'm very sorry for Albert Torres... he's a Salsa promoter... but I think Brujo is also right!

Ballroom Hip Hop? :shock: Uh oh. That's definitely not going to go over well. :? I love this thread. Everyone has good points. :)

[dragon3085]

So far all the posts have mentioned Albert's money loss. How about the fact that they TRIED TO RUN HIM OVER???? Forget about the money- the minute you try to kill someone- its a whole different ballgame. Now not only are they thieves, they have proven they lack even basic moral character by being willing to take a life. A life is worth a lot more then 80k. And honestly Torres is handling this whole thing (at least it appears so from his email) a lot cooler and methodically then most people I know would in his situation.

[dragon3085]

I love how people bash congresses as if everyone there is some egomaniac salsa superstar. Guess what...the majority of the people there are regular old dancers or music lovers like most of us. No ego at all, just there for the love of the music/dance. I had the pleasure of meeting and dancing with hundreds of very cool, down to earth people from all over the world that share my passion. How can one not want to experience that? If you want to go around looking for the negative side of the experience fine, it's there. It's there in any event where humans gather. It's human nature. But if you attend with open eyes, a open heart, and no agenda it is one of the most amazing experiences ever.

Amen, I couldn't have said it better myself. People with similair intrests will always gather together and some people will always try to profit from this. But you know what even for the so called 'street' dances this can be a good thing. It leads to exposure and opportunity.

[dragon3085]

How often does the average non-performer go to a congress? Once, twice a year maximum. The superstars who get to teach, travel and 'see their friends'. But I often wonder, how bad are the people around you that you need to be on the road every other weekend. What about building up your local scene and supporting your local musicians. Or trying to bring the musicians into your own city instead of flying to somewhere far away to dance with strangers and show off your mambo lessons.


I don't think this is always the case. Think about it, you love dancing, you got rent and bills to pay. Somebody comes along and says hey I will pay such and such amount to come to this place and do what you love. We should all be so lucky. So this person jumps on this opportunity- doesn't mean the people around him or her are bad and they want to get away. Might just mean that they see an opportunity to pay the rent while doing something they love, and I can't fault them for jumping at that chance. Also they get to travel and hopefully see more the world, which I think to few people do.

As far as the cliques and the attitude, well you see plenty of other example in the world of how people change when they get famous or powerfull. Thats not the fault of the event, that is that person's personal choice to start copping an attitude, and your choice (in general not You personally) to start in the idol worship. Unless a person can cure Hiv or Cancer or change a fundemental univeral constant like gravity- I ain't gonna start going gagagaga goo goo over them (no if she's really cute that another story. :twisted: )

[squirrel]

As far as the cliques and the attitude, well you see plenty of other example in the world of how people change when they get famous or powerfull. Thats not the fault of the event, that is that person's personal choice to start copping an attitude, and your choice (in general not You personally) to start in the idol worship. Unless a person can cure Hiv or Cancer or change a fundemental univeral constant like gravity- I ain't gonna start going gagagaga goo goo over them (no if she's really cute that another story. :twisted: )

hmmm... define 'cute'! :)

[pygmalion]

I love how people bash congresses as if everyone there is some egomaniac salsa superstar. Guess what...the majority of the people there are regular old dancers or music lovers like most of us. No ego at all, just there for the love of the music/dance. I had the pleasure of meeting and dancing with hundreds of very cool, down to earth people from all over the world that share my passion. How can one not want to experience that? If you want to go around looking for the negative side of the experience fine, it's there. It's there in any event where humans gather. It's human nature. But if you attend with open eyes, a open heart, and no agenda it is one of the most amazing experiences ever.

Amen, I couldn't have said it better myself. People with similair intrests will always gather together and some people will always try to profit from this. But you know what even for the so called 'street' dances this can be a good thing. It leads to exposure and opportunity.

Beautifully said, youngsta. 8)

[pygmalion]

Brujo, you most certainly have a point! Salsa is no longer a social dance... it's a cow people milk for money! They were talking to make it Dance Sport! (they is the world dance federation... don't remember the name very well...) They want to make Tango Argentino and Hip Hop ballroom styles too! These dances come from the streets... and now they will be regulated!
I'm very sorry for Albert Torres... he's a Salsa promoter... but I think Brujo is also right!

Eh. Promoters, organizers, whatever. Yeah, I guess they are in it for the money. But they still provide a valuable service to people who want to get together and dance. So I, for one, won't condemn them for taking advantage of a good business opportunity, as long as they provide a quality service and aren't gouging people.

Speaking of which, the feel I get is that people felt justified in buying the stolen tickets because the tickets at the door were "overpriced." Maybe so. I don't know.

What I do know from experience is that putting on a big event like that isn't cheap, even if you use volunteer labor and negotiate discounts. I was involved in organizing a large professional development conference several times. One in particular, about five years ago, had approx 3500 atttendees and cost a million dollars to put on, even with volunteers doing most of the work. Sure, Mr. Torres probably did price the Congress tickets to make money for himself, but even if he had budgeted just to break even, the tickets would not have been cheap, is my guess. Things cost big money -- hotel ballrooms and banquet rooms, PA systems, dance floors ... It's a long and boring list, but nothing on that list is free.

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and one other thing. If there was any chance of my attending this event next year, I'd jump on it and fork over the $200 right now. I don't think you'll ever get a better deal. 8) :lol:

[tj]

My opinion about congresses is pretty simple - go if you wanna go, stay home if you wanna stay home. And yes, I get annoyed with friends who try to put pressure on me to go simply because they have gone or want to go themselves.

Personally, I think we're overinflating the ego and attitude issue at Congresses. I believe most dancers are actually more open to dancing with complete strangers at a congress because odds are that the other person knows what s/he is doing. Sure, I've encountered the occasional salsa snob at a congress, but no more frequent than in a regular night in a new scene - where an experienced salsera will think I must be a beginner since she doesn't recognize me.

Do the "superstars" get a little too much adulation? Yes. Is there the tendency for all of us to stand around and watch them? Yes.

But you're still free to do as you please. It's relatively easy to figure out who is nice and who is snobby/snotty. And I've met some lovely people at these sorts of things over the years (and while it wasn't a congress per se, I even met Dragon at a "Salsa Land Cruise" in Cancun a few years ago. And we're friends to this day.)

What I like about congresses is that it's like your local scene distilled into it's most intense form. You could arguably do nothing but salsa for the entire weekend (too much for me, personally). When else can you do that? :shock:

What I don't like about congresses is that most of them get too crowded. But hey, better crowded than empty!

So the bottom line, IMHO, is do what you want/feel like. Go to a congress. Go to a new city on a regular night. Stay and promote your local scene. It's all good, and each have their strengths and weaknesses. You've got to experience it for yourself to decide what you like best.

[pygmalion]

Well said. 8) I think you're right. It's all good, as long as your get to dance. :wink: :D

[pygmalion]

So far all the posts have mentioned Albert's money loss. How about the fact that they TRIED TO RUN HIM OVER???? Forget about the money- the minute you try to kill someone- its a whole different ballgame. Now not only are they thieves, they have proven they lack even basic moral character by being willing to take a life. A life is worth a lot more then 80k. And honestly Torres is handling this whole thing (at least it appears so from his email) a lot cooler and methodically then most people I know would in his situation.

Yes, I think attempted murder is more important than any financial loss. I'm just trying not to jump to any conclusions, here. Even having read through Mr. Torres' post, I can't be sure that murder was the intent. It sounds as if things happened very quickly. The ladies were trying to get away and Mr. Torres was in the way. Could have been an accident, with no bodily harm intended. So, until things are resolved in court, I can't draw any conclusion on that. But the theft appears to be pretty well documented. Who actually did what is a matter for the courts to decide, but the theft appears to be real. :?

[aragonh]

My opinion about congresses is pretty simple - go if you wanna go, stay home if you wanna stay home. And yes, I get annoyed with friends who try to put pressure on me to go simply because they have gone or want to go themselves.

Personally, I think we're overinflating the ego and attitude issue at Congresses. I believe most dancers are actually more open to dancing with complete strangers at a congress because odds are that the other person knows what s/he is doing. Sure, I've encountered the occasional salsa snob at a congress, but no more frequent than in a regular night in a new scene - where an experienced salsera will think I must be a beginner since she doesn't recognize me.

Do the "superstars" get a little too much adulation? Yes. Is there the tendency for all of us to stand around and watch them? Yes.



I agree w/ TJ here.

I personally think that going to congresses are great for one's dancing skills. You get to dance with many talented dancers and that is great especially if one comes from a small scene.

I tend to encourage my friends to go, so that they can have fun and improve, but at times, Im thinking "Y bring sand to the beach". I will have as much fun at the congress by myself as within a group.

Yeah, some dancers bring their own 'fans' so that it may seem that they have a crowd watching them. But you know what? I usually ignore them because Im usually dancing at the same time. I dont mind watching when Im resting, but honestly, I go to congresses to dance and have fun.

I dont know if people are aware, but Albert Torres is not a rich dude. In fact, he goes into debt at the end of every LA Congress. But one wonders why do the Congress at all? Simply put, Albert Torres does it for the LOVE. His Show of LOVE for SALSA is just grand. I love salsa but I dont love it that much in going through all the hassle of organizing and going into DEBT for it YEAR after YEAR.

ALbert Torres encourages dancers, performers, instructors and local scenes around the world. He took something that stayed mostly in Puerto Rico, New York, Cuba and Miami and spread it around. He shared the LOVE with others.

And Hopefully even after this incident, His LOVE will be as strong as ever.

[pygmalion]

I'm so glad to hear you say that. I don't know anything about him, but from what I've read in the past couple days, Albert Torres is the kind of person I'd like to be. It doesn't seem like his motivation is lining his pockets. It seems like he loves salsa, plain and simple. 8)

[cocodrilo]

Most people in fact DO lose money at those big events. I lost over $2000 for a salsa festival I produced in Okayama but everyone raved afterwards at how fun it was, how smoothly things went and how great the band was! That was worth it for me, and I'd do it again! I think Mr Torres and all his buddies are doing this from their hearts, and I applaud them!

As for attending ANY event, it is a matter of preference. I prefer events with smaller groups, whether it be a wine tasting event or a dance party, and it doesn't matter whether I know anyone there or not. I'm there to meet new people & have a good time! :D

[DanceMentor]

Yes, our studio lost money on an event recently, but it was a lot of fun...so much that I have volunteered to help lose money for the next event. :lol:

It is bad what happened with the World Salsa Congress. I think the worst thing is there are a bunch of people walking around knowing they cheated the system. I have a feeling many won't be going to as many Salsa congresses, and it will be harmful (emotionally) to their future Salsa dancing.

For all the people who knowing cheated the system so blatantly, what a shame! :evil:

[cocodrilo]

Yes, there are cheats and thieves everywhere nowadays, and one can't let one's guard down. It's hard knowing who to trust!!!

[salsachinita]

What goes deeper into this behaviour, is that negative human nature comes into play.

There are always people who are willing to cheat the system, ANY system, because (1) it seems like a victimless crime (2) everyone is after a bargain, but there's a difference between being tempted & actually ACTING upon it (3) not everybody share the view of salsa as a 'big picture', which explains the 'take & run' attitude.

I suspect there are people out there who knew about the deal but chose NOT to take it (while keeping it quiet).

TJ is fantastic with his social observation, as usual. And thankyou, Aragonh, for the insight :notworth: .

[dragon3085]

I wonder if the people who bought the faux passes really knew what they were getting. I don't think its fair to hold the consumer responsible for security of products. I deal with this in the IT world a lot in the form of software piracy. My main aurgument with a company like say adobe is that if mom and pop go the compusa and buy photoshop it not their resposibilty to make sure the copy is legit. Its compusa's and adobes job to make sure only authentic copies are sold to the consumer. Same here, it wasn't the people who bought the passes job, to play 20 questions and try to ascertain if they were legit.

Patrick

[SDsalsaguy]

As a concept i understand and agree with what you're saying Patrick. That being said, if it were me I would've had no doubt that such an offer was not legitimate... as I think would hold true for most North Americans at the least (i.e. I could see why someone from a differenet culture might not have thought anything was amiss).

[pygmalion]

Yes. I agree that the people who stole and sold the passes bear the biggest share of the responsibility, but, at least where I'm from, the concept of under-the-table scalped tickets is pretty common. I suspect many people knew that something was amiss, although you're right, dragon3085. Some might not have known. :?

[Larinda McRaven]

If I go purchase my adobe photoshop out of the back of a truck across the street from compusa...I am gonna asume it is not legit.

(I actually prefer corel by the way...)

[SDsalsaguy]

Also, just to follow up on an earlier point, I think there's little doubt that almost running Albert over is the far greater wrong. At the same time, however, that does not have current and lasting logistical repercussions for him as an event coordinator whereas recouping any funds he can and generating cash flow both do…and hence the general focus on those aspects.

[pygmalion]

Exactly. He needs to be able to pay the bands and other vendors ASAP, to preserve his good name and be able to organize more events later. Most of those bills probably came due on the day of the event.

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and there's always seed money needed for the next event. Deposits on hotels, etc, are often paid months or even a year in advance, to hold the dates.

[aragonh]

What goes deeper into this behaviour, is that negative human nature comes into play.

There are always people who are willing to cheat the system, ANY system, because (1) it seems like a victimless crime (2) everyone is after a bargain, but there's a difference between being tempted & actually ACTING upon it (3) not everybody share the view of salsa as a 'big picture', which explains the 'take & run' attitude.

I suspect there are people out there who knew about the deal but chose NOT to take it (while keeping it quiet).

TJ is fantastic with his social observation, as usual. And thankyou, Aragonh, for the insight :notworth: .


THanx for the compliment salsachinita.

While yes it sucks that there is a negative nature to ALL human beings. WE should never lose HOPE in them.

Because, correct me if Im wrong, doesnt it take two to Salsa??



I want to share my Congress04 experiences on this thread (and maybe start a new one) so that people can offset the bad with the good:

1. I want to visit Houston!!! That place seemt to have a big scene. The people I dance with were awesome!!!!

2. I want to go back to Seattle. I met up with my friend Sasha and boy do I miss her smile!!!!

3. I have to hit up on San Diego some time soon. The dancers were just awesome (It didnt hurt that they looked good either!!!)

4. Thanx to the Congress, my friend met up with some people from Boston, of which he is visiting this weekend on a business trip. I know hes happy to find some people to go dancin with later on tonight!!!!

5. Finally, (to keep it short), I want to thank Dance-Forums for posting this thread up. I read it and was shocked and shared it with my friends who went. One of them happen to be staying at the Inn and witnessed the incident at the place. At the time, he thought they were joking around (he was a little buzz, so please dont blame him). When he realized what really happened and the seriousness of it, he immediately contacted Albert and said he would be a witness if he needed one.

So you see, while there are bad apples in every barrel, It is the good ones that come out in times of need.

[SDsalsaguy]

Heya aragonh, regarding #3, please let me know if you're ever going to be in the area! As far as #5 I'm very, very happy to hear that something "positive" for Albert might arise though this discussion... that's fantastic news indeed! :D

[aragonh]

Heya aragonh, regarding #3, please let me know if you're ever going to be in the area! As far as #5 I'm very, very happy to hear that something "positive" for Albert might arise though this discussion... that's fantastic news indeed! :D

Thanx SDSalsa, i dont know when it but i;ll be sometime this year. (First will have to go to New York, and hopefully to Puerto Rico!!)

[youngsta]

The thing that really surprised me about everyone's reactions is that this is so normal in our society. Scalping of tickets for sporting events, concerts, or any other event happen hundreds of thousands of times daily and most don't even think anything of it. The people that buy those scalped tickets, everyday normal folks like you and I, aren't branded like they're some kind of bad apple. Plain and simple it's accepted in this coutnry. Nothing more than "hey I got a deal." So even though I think it's messed up that Albert lost money, I'm neither surprised our outraged. Happens all the time.

Getting rundown by a car on the other hand is a WHOLE different ball of wax.

[pygmalion]

Well... there's scalping and then there's scalping.

The scalping I've participated in (yes, I admit it :oops: LOL) didn't involve stolen tickets, just resale of tickets purchased legitimately from ticketmaster, then resold for many times the face value. It was illegal, but the organizers and the artists weren't being cheated out of their paychecks. And it got me on or close to the front row for many a sold-out concert. (What can I say? I used to be a groupie. :oops: :lol: )

This scenario was a little different. Maybe the congress next year should use ticketmaster or something like it for ticket distribution.

[dragon3085]

If I go purchase my adobe photoshop out of the back of a truck across the street from compusa...I am gonna asume it is not legit.

(I actually prefer corel by the way...)
Yes but if you buy in compusa you should assume it legit. It not your responsibilty as a consumer to inquire if compusa didn't buy them from that truck across the street. But they very could have.

[Larinda McRaven]

If I read the thread correctly, the alleged thieves were selling out of a hotel room across the street. That pretty much would set off bells in my head...

[SDsalsaguy]

If I read the thread correctly, the alleged thieves were selling out of a hotel room across the street. That pretty much would set off bells in my head...
Exactly Larinda. And, as far as the tickets, I think Jenn has it right. Resold passes, that had been payed for, would be one thing, whereas STOLEN passes are something else entirely.


Thanx SDSalsa, i dont know when it but i;ll be sometime this year.
Oh yeah, just out of curiosity, do you remember (the names of) any of the SD people you met/danced with?

[aragonh]

Oh yeah, just out of curiosity, do you remember (the names of) any of the SD people you met/danced with?

Yeah, they were Majesty in Motion people. I remember them the most b/c we have hanged out before at previous events.

So it was David, Juan, Melanie and 2 of her friends.

There were others SD people I met but I cant remember them.

[squirrel]

I hope the thieves will ba caught and pay for what they did... it is an awful behaviour and I resent it!
The ticket scam thingie happens here all the time... it is so bad that people buy most of the tickets for big up-coming events and then sell them overpriced! I hate that! And they are working with the direct sellers of tickets... they share the profits... grr :evil: :evil: