Chicho Frumboli interview in El Tangauta (Dec 2009)

[jantango]

I became aware of it when bloggers started writing about. I downloaded it to read. It can't be linked because it requires that you register to read or download the issue. The article can be read in English.

Chicho makes some very interesting statements about the "new" movement in tango. Although he learned from milongueros, he admits that he got into creating something new. The new movement in tango missed something in the teaching -- passing on the essence of tango. He says, "I take total responsibility" for this and the others should too.

Chicho didn't pass on what he learned from the milongueros, so there is something missing between the old dancers and the young ones. He was that link. He taught only the new structures.

"The new tango lost a bit of the respect for what tango is."

"Today, they all dance the same."

www.eltangauta.com (http://www.eltangauta.com) and register to download magazine No. 182 to read the complete interview.

I hope that those who have been brainwashed all these years into believing they were learning tango will read what he says and take it to heart. It's not too late to learn from the milongueros who are still around.

[dchester]

So, do you think that Chicho will start teaching milonguero style?

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Me]

So, do you think that Chicho will start teaching milonguero style?

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I hope not! I want him to continue into new territories that are uniquely Chicho. :)

Ga1dUZm6lbc

Bliss!

[bordertangoman]

I became aware of it when bloggers started writing about. I downloaded it to read. It can't be linked because it requires that you register to read or download the issue. The article can be read in English.

Chicho makes some very interesting statements about the "new" movement in tango. Although he learned from milongueros, he admits that he got into creating something new. The new movement in tango missed something in the teaching -- passing on the essence of tango. He says, "I take total responsibility" for this and the others should too.

Chicho didn't pass on what he learned from the milongueros, so there is something missing between the old dancers and the young ones. He was that link. He taught only the new structures.

"The new tango lost a bit of the respect for what tango is."

"Today, they all dance the same."

www.eltangauta.com (http://www.eltangauta.com) and register to download magazine No. 182 to read the complete interview.

I hope that those who have been brainwashed all these years into believing they were learning tango will read what he says and take it to heart. It's not too late to learn from the milongueros who are still around.

I read the article after guessing the spanish sign up form and its interesting. i dont think Chicho is particularly responsible for how people are dancing; he could only influence the people he teaches, and if other Argentines are abroad are not teaching whatever it is the milongueros would like to pass on ( and are they interested in passing it on?) Perhaps it is a mutal lack of respect that has created this. we were are war with Argentina not so long ago, and both are proud people, if old people dont understand that younger people wish to have a voice of their own ( and my daughter teaches me this everyday; her life is her discovery not mine). I'm tired of people telling me what I should or shouldnt be doing;; that tango should be danced this or that way; if there is this mythical way that milongueros dance they seem pretty indifferent to doing anything about it. I dont see the tango equivalent of the Buena Vista Club octogenarians. I think Chicho is a pretty amazing dancer and maybe most people are pretty average in comparison but he inspires. I am not trying to emulate him, but I love his musical boldness and sharpness.

Our whole society is increasingly geared to making people jump through hoops.
"traditional/milonguero" tango seems to me to be another hoop. I dont see any evidence of milongueros wanting to impart their way of dancing or music. For instance Oscar Acerbras at a milonga played traditional tangos; Piazzolla arrangements and some other quite strange rather jazzy music; why? I do not know; to show off his abilities? I agree that there is a rift but it is not of my making I am pretty much in the middle and on both sides.

Chicho's comments could reflect societal changes as much as anything that has happened particularly in tango; we have less and less respect for "authority" because those who were in command didnt have the foresight to see the consequences of the way we live. My parents generation were brought up strictly and that reflected in the way they brought me up, but it has served me badly as I discovered that most people who were my peers were far more relaxed. I dont think those who advocate traditional tango dancing have respect for nuevo dancers and that results in snobbery and elitism.

[Mario7]

Our whole society is increasingly geared to making people jump through hoops.
"traditional/milonguero" tango seems to me to be another hoop. I dont see any evidence of milongueros wanting to impart their way of dancing or music.............. I dont think those who advocate traditional tango dancing have respect for nuevo dancers and that results in snobbery and elitism.

I am more and more tired of this cross current communication rift complete with misunderstandings and the continuous comparing of apples to oranges. We have two very different dances here and I personally will be looking for a dance forum that is dedicated entirely to the traditional tango way of social dancing. :mad::(

[Me]

And, here we go... AGAIN...

[Peaches]

"Can't we all just get along?"

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

[Captain Jep]

Is this what you mean? (note the boleo lol ):

[opendoor]

Chicho started his career with NeoTango, and I loved it. Now he is almost exclusively interpreting GuardiaVieja, and I dont like it, at all. That doesnt fit together, (only my view ....

[jantango]

So, do you think that Chicho will start teaching milonguero style?

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

No, because there is no milonguero style. Each milonguero dances his own personal style.

We may see Chicho coming back to the essence that he lost in all those years of trying to create something new. At least he was man enough to admit that he went off on a tangent and accepts responsibility for it.

[dchester]

No, because there is no milonguero style. Each milonguero dances his own personal style.

We may see Chicho coming back to the essence that he lost in all those years of trying to create something new. At least he was man enough to admit that he went off on a tangent and accepts responsibility for it.
It sounds like you are playing a semantical game or something. If you wish to call it, this "essence" thing that he learned from the milongueros, then so be it. However, plenty of people know what is being referred to by the term, milonguero style. You can pretend you don't know what I'm talking about if you wish, but then how do you distinguish the style you claim to like from nuevo?

[Dave Bailey]

He says, "I take total responsibility" for this and the others should too.

Chicho didn't pass on what he learned from the milongueros, so there is something missing between the old dancers and the young ones. He was that link. He taught only the new structures.

"The new tango lost a bit of the respect for what tango is."

"Today, they all dance the same."


Sorry, but it's silly trying to launch a discussion based on a source which we can't all see. And no, I'm not registering with them, my details are valuable.

So either quote significant sections directly from it, or use another source.

I hope that those who have been brainwashed all these years into believing they were learning tango will read what he says and take it to heart.
I can't. It's not public.

I guess I'll have to stay brainwashed. Oh well.

It's not too late to learn from the milongueros who are still around.
Sounds great.

Now if only someone could show me around BsAs and introduce me to them.

[Me]

So either quote significant sections directly from it, or use another source.


Nah. It's much more fun to just throw something kinda' vague and provoking out there, and then watch all the fish take a nibble. :p

[Captain Jep]

Gah Dave do what I did - pretend you live in Recoleta (aka somewhere posh in BsAs)... thats what I did..

I'll give you the gist -
" I've reached the top and had to stop, and that's what's bothering me. I want to be a milonguero , man cub, and stroll right into town, and be just like all the other milongueros , I'm tired to monkeying around. So oobedoo .... "

:cool:

[Me]

Here is a new video on Youtube of Chicho dancing to Di Sarli...

RHKmyqsj4Yw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHKmyqsj4Yw

I admire Chicho's style, but for this video, it would have been nice to see him return to a milonguero style... IMO. :)

[opendoor]

..would have been nice to see him return ..

Hi Me, agreed (http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=753155&postcount=9), but his style is his brand, isnt it. And he is successful.

cheers

[Mario7]

Nah. It's much more fun to just throw something kinda' vague and provoking out there, and then watch all the fish take a nibble. :p
Kereyest, if it means so much to you that it bothers you, why don't you just register at the site she gave you and read the whole article? Or would your new user name and password be too creative and valuable to share, too?:rolleyes:

[Me]

Kereyest, if it means so much to you that it bothers you...

Oh, don't worry about me. I'm not bothered. :o

Or would your new user name and password be too creative and valuable to share, too?

bugmenot.com is your friend. ;)

[Dave Bailey]

Kereyest, if it means so much to you that it bothers you, why don't you just register at the site she gave you and read the whole article?
My point was, if you want an open discussion, having non-open original sources is not the way to go about it.

[jantango]

It sounds like you are playing a semantical game or something. If you wish to call it, this "essence" thing that he learned from the milongueros, then so be it. However, plenty of people know what is being referred to by the term, milonguero style. You can pretend you don't know what I'm talking about if you wish, but then how do you distinguish the style you claim to like from nuevo?


Chicho was man enough to admit that he learned the essence of tango and then forgot to pass it on in his teaching. Read his words in the interview. I don't call it essence; Chicho does. It's what so many have been missing while they are busy memorizing steps and being brainwashed with choreography that will never make them into dancers.

Gustavo Naveira has given one of his expensive workshops the title, "Tango Milonguero." I doubt it bears any resemblance to the way any milonguero dances today in the traditional milongas near downtown. He never called what he dances "nuevo tango" and now he's turned around to catch a new market of fools.

I dance tango. That's what the milongueros call it, plain and simple. It is real and simple tango for the average person who wants to dance socially. The new tango movement has nothing to do with social dancing; it's all about marketing big movements for those who dance to impress and to put lots of money in the pockets of the sellers.

[jantango]

[/u]. . . .
Now if only someone could show me around BsAs and introduce me to them.

I've been doing just that for the past ten years. When do you arrive?

[jantango]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHKmyqsj4Yw
I admire Chicho's style, but for this video, it would have been nice to see him return to a milonguero style... IMO. :)


You admire his style and then say you'd like to see him dance another way. Why? He has to be true to himself in his dance.

I saw Chicho in 1997 in a milonga. I didn't care for his dancing then nor did I care for it in this video clip. He has been stomping all these years and continues dancing that way. He has a great sense for the music with his training. There is no elegance to his dancing. He chose Di Sarli for the exhibition and hits the accents like he's dancing to jazz. There is no embrace with his partner. What he feels in the music isn't shared with his partner because they have no connection.

[Dave Bailey]

I've been doing just that for the past ten years. When do you arrive?
Have you really?

Cor, that's handy.

[dchester]

Chicho was man enough to admit that he learned the essence of tango and then forgot to pass it on in his teaching. Read his words in the interview. I don't call it essence; Chicho does. It's what so many have been missing while they are busy memorizing steps and being brainwashed with choreography that will never make them into dancers.

Gustavo Naveira has given one of his expensive workshops the title, "Tango Milonguero." I doubt it bears any resemblance to the way any milonguero dances today in the traditional milongas near downtown. He never called what he dances "nuevo tango" and now he's turned around to catch a new market of fools.

I dance tango. That's what the milongueros call it, plain and simple. It is real and simple tango for the average person who wants to dance socially. The new tango movement has nothing to do with social dancing; it's all about marketing big movements for those who dance to impress and to put lots of money in the pockets of the sellers.
Trying hard to resist tasty bait . . .

;)

[Dave Bailey]

Trying hard to resist tasty bait . . .

;)
Go on, you know you want to... ;)

[Mario7]

A quote from THE interview:
A quote:
"Yes, but those milongueros had respect, delicacy and sensibility, it
was totally different. I know my role is contradictory, because I also
collaborated in generating this young movement. In its moment I got
tired of the strict milonguero codes that didn?t correspond with my
time and to rebel I tried to make my way. Today I?m a milonguero again
(laughter); I?m against the people who do not cabecear (nod), who
don?t have codes or respect. The value of tango has been diluted. That
is why I say that many dancers are lost, they barely hold on to each
other to dance and for two hours like zombies, it is very sad." -Chicho

[Steve Pastor]

I wonder who's world he is speaking of? His, mine, JanTango's?

And, although this is somewhat tongue in cheek, perhaps he misses the days in the 50s when people also danced to "jazz" as well as tango, as recounted here.
http://inheritingthetango.blogspot.com/2009/08/interview-one-facundo-posadas.html

If you don't find an environment where there are people whom you want to be joined with torso to torso, and want to join with you, and where you aren't associating with people whom you have known for years, knowing their preferences of music and how to dance to it, etc, chances are good that you will look somewhere else for something to do.

I really do wonder though, where Chico is talking about with that statement.

[Mario7]

I wonder who's world he is speaking of? His, mine, JanTango's?
in this interview he is talking about his own followers.. Nuevo.

"I know my role is contradictory, because I also
collaborated in generating this young movement." -Chicho

[Steve Pastor]

Does that ring true with you that nuevo dancers dance like zombies? Most often people complain that they are too energetic. And, that stuff can be a heck of a lot of fun, just like the older styles of AT, before the "Golden Age". But, see, that isn't AT.

[Mario7]

Does that ring true with you that nuevo dancers dance like zombies?.
So, are you thinking that he must be talking about some other dance style...not according to my read of it. And for the term ´zombies´ ... I´m guessing that they are not dancing to the music ...he is of a different culture and observing in another culture altogether and he may have a different meaning for the word. ...but it is obvious that he is talking about the Tango dancers that he helped create. ...sort of a mea culpa, mea culpa.

[Steve Pastor]

I am reminded of what Hugo Daniel one young teacher said at
the beginning of a class, "There is no "Truth" in Tango". He
explained that Tango is in the relationship and there many ways of
expressing it. There is no single truth about it. With over 100
Milongas every month, you can find examples or data to prove almost
any dictum about tango.
Lifted from a post by Paul Shrivastava, who has a tango radio program eminating from Bucknell University.

[Steve Pastor]

are you saying that he must be talking about some other dance style
I am saying that, if he is talking about his own cohorts, it doesn't square with how much fun certain movements can be.

[Dave Bailey]

So, are you thinking that he must be talking about some other dance style...not according to my read of it. And for the term ´zombies´ ... I´m guessing that they are not dancing to the music ...he is of a different culture and observing in another culture altogether and he may have a different meaning for the word. ...but it is obvious that he is talking about the Tango dancers that he helped create. ...sort of a mea culpa, mea culpa.
But that quote isn't talking about style of dancing, it's talking about codigos...

Sorry, but it's hard to avoid the impression that he's, basically, talking rubbish.

[Mario7]

But that quote isn't talking about style of dancing, it's talking about codigos...

Gee, strange how English can become Greek all of a sudden.
He mentioned the codigos because he was saying how his own rebellion had changed...that he now sees their need. That he is now a Milonguero and he laughs...(I can't believe that I'm having to explain this)...then he goes on to talk about the generation of dance that he, himself, pied pipered in..he and the other couple of guys...Hmm maybe, it is best that you don't go and read the whole interview. ;)

[Dave Bailey]

Gee, strange how English can become Greek all of a sudden.
He mentioned the codigos because he was saying how his own rebellion had changed...that he now sees their need. That he is now a Milonguero and he laughs...(I can't believe that I'm having to explain this)...then he goes on to talk about the generation of dance that he, himself, pied pipered in..he and the other couple of guys...Hmm maybe, it is best that you don't go and read the whole interview. ;)
Well I'm not going to comment on second-hand interpretations.

Basically, this whole thread seems kind of pointless.

[opendoor]

.. whole thread seems kind of pointless.

We could carry on the latter: http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=34861

I have not read the ElTangauta article bc I dont want to sign up (http://www.eltangauta.com/nota.asp?id=1412&idedicion=0#nota-mas) for another server.... So, is something fundamentally different said compared to the march interview (http://atdrc.com/default.asp?TextDisplay=1&Display=18) we talked about here (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=34861), at all?

Still, ..

.. and hits the accents like he's dancing to jazz....
A rare moment, Im with Jan !

..Each milonguero dances his own personal style..

But this counts for Chicho, too. Grant it.

wr OD

[Me]

You admire his style and then say you'd like to see him dance another way. Why?

Because of the music they are dancing to. If Chicho is accomplished in milonguero style, it is quite odd (IMO) to not use that set of skills why dancing to Di Sarli.

[jantango]

Because of the music they are dancing to. If Chicho is accomplished in milonguero style, it is quite odd (IMO) to not use that set of skills why dancing to Di Sarli.


Chicho says he learned the essence of tango by watching the milongueros in the milongas when he became interested in tango. He doesn't say he learned the "milonguero style" which doesn't exist although it is marketed as such. Chicho may have observed the milongueros long enough to become interested in tango and then he and the others in the new tango movement went on to create something entirely different for other purposes.

The new tango movement has nothing to do with social dancing. Neither Chicho Frumboli, Fabian Salas nor Gustavo Naveira could show up today at a milonga in BsAs, invite an unknown partner with the cabeceo to dance, and then follow the ronda around the floor dancing musically to whatever orquesta was played. That is what the milongueros do every night of the week.

[Light Sleeper]

The new tango movement has nothing to do with social dancing. Neither Chicho Frumboli, Fabian Salas nor Gustavo Naveira could show up today at a milonga in BsAs, invite an unknown partner with the cabeceo to dance, and then follow the ronda around the floor dancing musically to whatever orquesta was played. That is what the milongueros do every night of the week.

Be careful, you're edging towards libellousness there. I did see Chicho doing just that actually... will try and find the clip.....

[Light Sleeper]

Here we go....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYyLQfesAKM

...okay, edit to add - it's Mariana Montes not a stranger.... but the point remains IMO

[dchester]

Chicho says he learned the essence of tango by watching the milongueros in the milongas when he became interested in tango. He doesn't say he learned the "milonguero style" which doesn't exist although it is marketed as such. Chicho may have observed the milongueros long enough to become interested in tango and then he and the others in the new tango movement went on to create something entirely different for other purposes. I hope you won't be offended, if I take Susana Miller's opinion over yours. She is the one who is credited with creating the term Milonguero style. A lot of people get confused about that term, as a few people think that she was saying all milongueros danced that way. That's not what the term means, though. Most people understand what is meant by a style. Just because someone doesn't understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

This is similar to how some people claim that Villa Urquiza style doesn't exist. IMO, they are both different subsets of what some people call salon.

The new tango movement has nothing to do with social dancing. Neither Chicho Frumboli, Fabian Salas nor Gustavo Naveira could show up today at a milonga in BsAs, invite an unknown partner with the cabeceo to dance, and then follow the ronda around the floor dancing musically to whatever orquesta was played. That is what the milongueros do every night of the week. The only way you would know this, is if you (or others) had followed them around to see them try it and fail. I doubt that you have.

[bastet]

Here we go....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYyLQfesAKM

...okay, edit to add - it's Mariana Montes not a stranger.... but the point remains IMO


Video clips don't seem to be the best way to make a decision.

There's been a few clips I've seen recently where odd things begin to happen when people know they are being video taped.

In this video, Chicho seems to be going against line of dance, relative to the camera and the 2 couples he was next to in the video I was using as a reference to watch. He was dancing small, but he also may have noticed he was being videoed, and as I've seen in several clips- videoing can make strange things happen, so it's probably not the best representative of things, I guess. Only if you could talk to people who dance near him at milognas could you really get an idea of how he dances and if it's with thr ronda or not.

That being said, I've also seen clips on Jan's channel where the people she was videoing exited lanes, crossed the middle of the floor and cut in to come round again because they knew the camera was on them...so no help there either if we're trying to talk about milongueros who exemplify respect of the floor and codigos (at least the floor codigos I learned, can't speak for anyone else).

Like I said, being videoed may make people do things that aren't the best representative of what someone's trying to say. Whether they are right or wrong we just can't tell from a video.

[Captain Jep]

Absolutely.

At the start of the vid its a bit confusing. Is he in the outer lane or the inner? Then as it goes on it looks as if he's on the inner. However, I also think there's a cut in the filming, so it's hard to get a sense of the continuity of his dancing.

Anyway, Ive seen much worse crowding on the floor at Canning, so Im not sure I would regard this as a definitive test :p

[Light Sleeper]

Bastet and Cap'n J - excellent points, all

However, Dchester wins :D


Posted by jantango http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=753928#post753928)
The new tango movement has nothing to do with social dancing. Neither Chicho Frumboli, Fabian Salas nor Gustavo Naveira could show up today at a milonga in BsAs, invite an unknown partner with the cabeceo to dance, and then follow the ronda around the floor dancing musically to whatever orquesta was played. That is what the milongueros do every night of the week.


The only way you would know this, is if you (or others) had followed them around to see them try it and fail. I doubt that you have.

:cheers:

[jantango]

The Faguchi* trio will never show up at a milonga in BsAs, like many others who are busy teaching choreography or exhibition tango. They are used to having the floor to themselves and don't know how to dance among others. I have seen Gustavo in a milonga on only two occasions in the past 13 years. The only time I saw Chicho dance was an exhibition in Salon Canning. The way they dance an exhibition is the way they dance. None of the social rules apply for them when they dance, i.e., keeping feet on the floor, etc.

The tango I know in the milongas is another world from the new movement. The Faguchi women are puppets responding to puppet masters' hands.

*Faguchi is a term that was coined years ago by someone on Tango-L for the new movement trio: Fabian Gustavo Chicho.

[Mario7]

The younger generation is sooooo determined NOT to be driving their father's Oldsmobile that they will re-invent the dance just to be different and have their own identity.
The tango dance students in Phila. who study with a very good, young, Argentine (faguchi-style) dancer/teacher, sure get their money's worth in each 1 1/2 hour class. The class itself rivals a Milonga in that there is lot's of action, lots of different partners and nobody ever sits down. The only downside is that after a year of these classes, the close embrace dance is non existent or if the student already knew how to dance close embrace, it is worse not better. This is from my own personal experience having taken over 30 such classes myself and having returned six months later and danced with the same student/dancers.
At a practica (which is the only place that I see them doing the Nuevo patterns), their movements seem tentative ...always looking down at each other's feet and seemingly mystifyed by the dance. I don't see the attraction of it all but evidently they do...different strokes for different folks, I guess.:confused:

[Steve Pastor]

Wish I had more time to play with you guys! Busy, busy with a bunch of stuff. Hate to spend time explaining - again - what "nuevo" started out as, etc.

different strokes for different folks
This is a good thing to accept. As I've written repeatedly, tango in Argentina has a very long history.
There have been and are many styles.
There are many reports of "milongueros" (and others), "opening up" and dancing "bigger" and with more energy as the crowds thin.
There are many reports (see posts by Brian Dunn on TangoL, only "one" of many such reports) of people dancing different "styles" alongside of each other.

And, I'd like to share this quote I came across yeterday.
"Everything evolves but the tango... nobody dares to break taboos. It's the old Argentine attitude: 'Don't get invovled.'"
Astor Piazolla 1961

P.S. They did sacadas in "Tango Bar" which was made and released before the tango explorations began. So they didn't invent the "sacada", as Chico claims, just as Salas states that they didn't invent anything except the linear boleo.

[bastet]

The Faguchi* trio will never show up at a milonga in BsAs, like many others who are busy teaching choreography or exhibition tango. They are used to having the floor to themselves and don't know how to dance among others. I have seen Gustavo in a milonga on only two occasions in the past 13 years. The only time I saw Chicho dance was an exhibition in Salon Canning. The way they dance an exhibition is the way they dance. None of the social rules apply for them when they dance, i.e., keeping feet on the floor, etc.

The tango I know in the milongas is another world from the new movement. The Faguchi women are puppets responding to puppet masters' hands.

*Faguchi is a term that was coined years ago by someone on Tango-L for the new movement trio: Fabian Gustavo Chicho.

Actually- in the video, Chicho was dancing small, and though he did appear to be moving himself slightly against the ronda, towards the middle of the floor. I suspect (but have no proof) that he knew he was being recorded and didn't like it and moved away from the camera because the couples that were the frame of reference (that I was using to watch) in the video remained mostly in shot, in the same place relative to him the whole time.

We won't ever know. We weren't there. Only the people who have danced next to him I think could have the priveledge if telling us how "social" his social dancing is.

I am not a Chicho fan (except for his dancing with Eugenia). I just tried to observe what I saw with neutrality and his muscial interpretation may have been more what I see from "Nuevo" style dancers, but as far as I could tell his movements were confined to the usual social movements i am used to and her feet didn't leave the floor that I could see. They weren't doing exhibition movement.

[Temza]

read the interview here (no need to register)
http://www.eltangauta.com/ed%5Fdigital/images/ElTangauta182.pdf

[Angel HI]

Wish I had more time to play with you guys! Busy, busy with a bunch of stuff. Hate to spend time explaining - again - what "nuevo" started out as, etc.


This is a good thing to accept. As I've written repeatedly, tango in Argentina has a very long history.
There have been and are many styles.
There are many reports of "milongueros" (and others), "opening up" and dancing "bigger" and with more energy as the crowds thin.
There are many reports (see posts by Brian Dunn on TangoL, only "one" of many such reports) of people dancing different "styles" alongside of each other.

And, I'd like to share this quote I came across yeterday.
"Everything evolves but the tango... nobody dares to break taboos. It's the old Argentine attitude: 'Don't get invovled.'"
Astor Piazolla 1961

P.S. They did sacadas in "Tango Bar" which was made and released before the tango explorations began. So they didn't invent the "sacada", as Chico claims, just as Salas states that they didn't invent anything except the linear boleo.Agreed. I, too, have been a wee inundated w/ much less fun things. However, we do have to remember; 1- forum guidelines, 2- others' feelings (respect), and 3- common sense. These things have been discussed here, ad nauseum, and will be again, but....

Let's also remember that Fabian (who is a personal friend, actually), has also said many times that they didn't invent anything. In an earlier, similar interview (too lazy to find it at the moment), he said that all they really did was to take what was and try to merge it with a more contemporary/universal way of moving/feeling. He even said that one of the things that they "reinvented" was the cross-foot system, which, he continued to admit, is a misnomer.

The point... I do not believe that either of these guys set out to destroy or take away anything from early tango. He has said to me that it is his admiration of the early milongueros that led him to venture into a new era. I understand Chicho's comments in the interview. There's much truth to them, yet they do not say that there was/is no room/place in tango for it.

My english (bi-national) doesn't sound like Heather's whose doesn't sound like Srini's from India. Yet, we all accept it as being english. Why can't we do the same with AT?

[Ampster]

...The way they dance an exhibition is the way they dance. None of the social rules apply for them when they dance, i.e., keeping feet on the floor, etc.
.

I really think this is not the exclusive domain of the nuevo, even if they do dance large. I think it depends of the individual. Case in point, I was twice rammed... RAMMED by Tete Rusconi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCqBW9wv3RE)! He didn't even bother to look and acknowledge the hit that nearly knocked my partner and I into a table. Anyone is capable of doing these, social tango indiscretions.

[Mario7]

:together::tongue:
My english (bi-national) doesn't sound like Heather's whose doesn't sound like Srini's from India. Yet, we all accept it as being english. Why can't we do the same with AT?
Angel, we really don't accept all the different English as English...some of it is by foreigners!:mad:
Actually, I went to my religious weekly milonga last night and was amazed at the number of new dancers in town. I sat there (with a few tequillas) and watched different styles of dance flourish around me...my table was actually on the dancefloor. I also watched the battle within myself...finding fault with the 'sandwiches'...as being too showey and when the music went from Neo-tango to a hard beat...alas, the sandwiches didn't fit...I pointed this out to my favorite dancer (trying to gain her commitment to Milonguero) and she said, "That's the beautiful thing about Tango, it's open to everyone's different interpretation." ...I was really disappointed with her reply but I begged her for another dance, anyway.

[Dave Bailey]

:together::tongue:
Angel, we really don't accept all the different English as English...some of it is by foreigners!:mad:
Yeah, like Americans. :p

Having read the interview, it still doesn't make much sense to me, you can read pretty much anything into it. Possibly it's the translation, but it comes across as rambling and unfocussed to me.

[dchester]

I really think this is not the exclusive domain of the nuevo, even if they do dance large. I think it depends of the individual. Case in point, I was twice rammed... RAMMED by Tete Rusconi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCqBW9wv3RE)! He didn't even bother to look and acknowledge the hit that nearly knocked my partner and I into a table. Anyone is capable of doing these, social tango indiscretions.
I guess he needs a lot of room to do that silly looking helicopter thing that he's known for.

:tongue:

[Steve Pastor]

Here's a link to the interview Angel mentioned. It's the kind of thing I like to bookmark, because this subject keeps coming up, and things are often misrepresented, misunderstood, distorted, etc.

http://www.totango.net/salas.html

[Mario7]

I guess he needs a lot of room to do that silly looking helicopter thing that he's known for.:tongue:
I'm taking a workshop in 'the helicopter' next week!:applause:

[dchester]

I'm taking a workshop in 'the helicopter' next week!:applause:
Is that the latest craze in Philly?

:D

[larrynla]

Chicho has become a fuddy-duddy!

"These young people dance all the same. They are show-offs who choose a figure that makes them look good. They don't respect the customs such as the cabeceo. They don't connect intimately. They dance like 'entes' (entities, things, robots, mere bodies, zombies)."

I imagine the neanderthals made similar complaints about the cro magnons - though on rather different subjects!

I am making fun of Chicho, but I also see the same phenomena, everywhere I go. But it is not because the youngsters are ruining tango. It may be more prevalent among the young because they are usually self-absorbed, shallow, and still young enough to be delighted in their new-found physical ability to do acrobatics. I certainly was when I was young. But this is part of growing up, and may be grown out of.

However, many people do NOT grow out of it. I see people even older than I am who show this same "adolescent" incompetence. And that includes the "milongueros" in Argentina, the supposed saints of Tango Mecca who many believe can do no wrong. (If they do wrong, the True Believers instantly demote them from being REAL milongueros.)

This callow behavior is not restricted to tango. I would bet that everyone of you reading this who dance other styles could give dozens of examples from, say, salsa or swing or ballroom. It comes from the simple fact that no one is perfect, and some of us are less perfect than others.

But. It may be more prevalent in tango.

Our dance is still only about two decades old outside Argentina. Students and many teachers are still learning what tango is about and how to learn it - and teach it. Most of us are still learning how to make the "words" of tango and how to create "sentences." Hardly surprising that we are not yet able to create "poetry."

This forum is proof of that. Many (perhaps most) of the discussions here are about dance mechanics: how to stand and walk, how to embrace, figures, dance floor etiquette. Almost none of the discussions touch on tango music and the subtleties of expressing music and sharing emotion.

Art is not completely avoided in this forum. Recently several people discussed the relationship between simple and interesting dancing in the thread about walking an entire song. (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=34225) The basic idea I got out of the discussion is that walking is basic meat and potatoes of tango, while adornos are the sauces.

Related to that was this perceptive comment in another thread.


... adornments are to be used in moderation. I equate them to women dressing up to go out for the evening. Some women know just how much to accessorize not too much jewelry not too much make up and you look beautiful and sophisticated however get carried away and over accessorize and you’ve ruined the whole look.

Using the food metaphor: Too much spice is as bad as too little.
______________________________________

Chicho is now in his thirties. He has been dancing tango fifteen years, and traveled the world teaching and performing. He is now a (not quite) grey eminence. And as this interview shows he's beginning to get grumpy and rail at young people.

How quickly the brash creative young bloat into oldsters, and become the new fuddy-duddies mumbling into their beards about the good old days. Oh, the agony! The tragedy! The humanity!

[bordertangoman]

Chicho has become a fuddy-duddy!

"These young people dance all the same. They are show-offs who choose a figure that makes them look good. They don't respect the customs such as the cabeceo. They don't connect intimately. They dance like 'entes' (entities, things, robots, mere bodies, zombies)."

I imagine the neanderthals made similar complaints about the cro magnons - though on rather different subjects!

I am making fun of Chicho, but I also see the same phenomena, everywhere I go. But it is not because the youngsters are ruining tango. It may be more prevalent among the young because they are usually self-absorbed, shallow, and still young enough to be delighted in their new-found physical ability to do acrobatics. I certainly was when I was young. But this is part of growing up, and may be grown out of.

However, many people do NOT grow out of it. I see people even older than I am who show this same "adolescent" incompetence. And that includes the "milongueros" in Argentina, the supposed saints of Tango Mecca who many believe can do no wrong. (If they do wrong, the True Believers instantly demote them from being REAL milongueros.)

This callow behavior is not restricted to tango. I would bet that everyone of you reading this who dance other styles could give dozens of examples from, say, salsa or swing or ballroom. It comes from the simple fact that no one is perfect, and some of us are less perfect than others.

But. It may be more prevalent in tango.

Our dance is still only about two decades old outside Argentina. Students and many teachers are still learning what tango is about and how to learn it - and teach it. Most of us are still learning how to make the "words" of tango and how to create "sentences." Hardly surprising that we are not yet able to create "poetry."

This forum is proof of that. Many (perhaps most) of the discussions here are about dance mechanics: how to stand and walk, how to embrace, figures, dance floor etiquette. Almost none of the discussions touch on tango music and the subtleties of expressing music and sharing emotion.

Art is not completely avoided in this forum. Recently several people discussed the relationship between simple and interesting dancing in the thread about walking an entire song. (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=34225) The basic idea I got out of the discussion is that walking is basic meat and potatoes of tango, while adornos are the sauces.

Related to that was this perceptive comment in another thread.



Using the food metaphor: Too much spice is as bad as too little.
______________________________________

Chicho is now in his thirties. He has been dancing tango fifteen years, and traveled the world teaching and performing. He is now a (not quite) grey eminence. And as this interview shows he's beginning to get grumpy and rail at young people.

How quickly the brash creative young bloat into oldsters, and become the new fuddy-duddies mumbling into their beards about the good old days. Oh, the agony! The tragedy! The humanity!

so Chicho is becoming likea Yorkshirman?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

[Dave Bailey]

This forum is proof of that. Many (perhaps most) of the discussions here are about dance mechanics: how to stand and walk, how to embrace, figures, dance floor etiquette. Almost none of the discussions touch on tango music and the subtleties of expressing music and sharing emotion.
Mainly because such discussions are much more difficult to convey in a text-based forum.

[Angel HI]

.... she said, "That's the beautiful thing about Tango, it's open to everyone's different interpretation." ....Very smart lady, this partner.

This callow behavior is not restricted to tango. I would bet that everyone of you reading this who dance other styles could give dozens of examples from, say, salsa or swing or ballroom. It comes from the simple fact that no one is perfect, and some of us are less perfect than others.But. It may be more prevalent in tango.

How quickly the brash creative young bloat into oldsters, and become the new fuddy-duddies mumbling into their beards about the good old days. Oh, the agony! The tragedy! The humanity!Larry, I like your entire post, but thought that the above really warranted noting.

[Zoopsia59]

I guess he needs a lot of room to do that silly looking helicopter thing that he's known for.

:tongue:

Please post vid of helicopter! I need a good "floor clearing" move.

[Zoopsia59]

I'm taking a workshop in 'the helicopter' next week!:applause:

Was this meant as a joke? Cause you're saying no one in Philly dances CE or dances it well, but you've got Tete giving workshops, so.... ?

[Mario7]

..yep it was a joke but I did see a YouTube of him teaching it to a class...humorous..I'll post it if I find it.:p
ps..there is CE in Philly and one good teacher of it (Sridhar) but the
embrace has been opening and most leaders sit back in it...quite a different
animal than the Apilado which I hunger for.:sad: