Learning to Lead (Teaching vs instructing vs learning)

[tangonuevo]

Although I've had many hours of workshops, privates, yada yada, I've had three primary AT instructors (many, many hours working with each one). One was a lead and two were follows.

From the lead I learned a lot of very helpful general concepts: The importance of contrabody & torsion, concepts of energy and inertial leads, leading the "free leg", etc. But I didn't learn to dance.

My second primary instructor was a follow and well known AT instructor with years of training in classical dance as well as tango. She taught/instructed me with significant nuance and detail. She would stop me midway through a step to give advice. She would exhort me to "walk through her" and other mnemonic phrases to help me dance with proper energy. Etc. I learned a little bit about dancing with her.

My third, and dare I say best, instructor was not an instructor at all. She was simply a _very_ experienced follow who _never_ tried guess my intentions nor to 'fix' anything, and she never tried to teach. But if I didn't lead something, she just stood there. If I lead her to step on my foot, she stepped on my foot, and if I lead her to fall over, she did (yes, that happened!). That was how I actually learned to dance.

So, not through classes, not through private "instruction", but by simply dancing with an experienced and 'honest' follow who did exactly what I lead, even if the lead was crummy and the result a disaster.

I'm curious how you learned, so please share your experiences too.

[wadpro]

I think its best way to learn leading is to dance with fat and huge women :) If you are able to lead them, you can lead anyone...

[AndaBien]

Teaching vs instructing seems to me like a semantic distinction, and not especially useful. Teaching vs learning is a very real distinction. Teaching and learning have no direct relationship; either one can happen in the absence of the other. IME, many dance students are very poor learners, regardless of the quality teaching they may have had. From your description above, it seems that you are a good learner, so your teacher(s) should mainly stay out of your way.

I have practiced and studied dance a lot on my own, and I think my dancing has improved because of it. I continue to learn, still. Unfortunately, I see many students who just don't learn, or do so at a leisurely pace. It's a problem I, as a teacher, have tried to understand, but haven't yet.

[chanchan]

So, not through classes, not through private "instruction", but by simply dancing with an experienced and 'honest' follow who did exactly what I lead, even if the lead was crummy and the result a disaster.

The same is for me.
I had different teachers, some of them very good and famous, but the ones that actually allowed me to learn was all that experienced and honest follows who did exaclty what I lead.

I am not a native english speaker, but I perceive (also considering the dictionary definitions) that teaching and instructing, despite being synonyms, have different shades of meaning: teaching is more generic and mainly related to a support for learning, while instructing is more related to give commands, instructions, rules.
These words can reflect two different approaches to tango: from one side you have a set of rules like "you have to put your foot here, because this is right, if you put there is wrong", so the good dancer is expected to know all the "rules" and apply them perfectly, the leader is expected to do some things, the follower is expected to do some other things.

On the other side you have someone who helps you to understand what happens when you do something, there is no "wrong" or "right" step: you just learn the consequences of the various actions, by doing them with a lot of practice.
For example: you know that if you put your foot there you will go out of axis, so if this is not what you want, you will avoid that, but if you like to be out of axis, then it's ok.
No one is expected to do anything, except mantaining the connection (which not necessarily means close embrace): if you lead her to step on your foot she will step on your foot...

[Gssh]

nvm.

[AndaBien]

I've been a dancer for over 40 years, and danced many types of dances, so I know how to learn. When I began learning AT there were no teachers around so I attended week-long and week-end workshops 3 or 4 times a year. I used video tapes to learn steps. Most of my learning was through my own effort, but I had a strong dance background.

I had one teacher who insisted that I dance her way, and declared that my way was wrong. I wanted her to help me learn, not to interfere with my learning. We parted ways. I think any superior social dancer must leave teaching behind at some point and travel their own path.

[Ampster]

My experiences about leading, captured in my blog: AmpsterTango (http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/)

[Peaches]

Well, it doesn't pertain to leading, just learning. Lessee...

First teacher: He didn't speak much English. Some, enough, but not a lot. He did manage to convey the idea of staying put until told otherwise, waiting, staying in front of the man, staying on one foot or the other (not both), listening to the music, lack of specific timing, various exercises. Fabulous teacher. I really only began to appreciate just how fabulous he was a couple of years after, when I found myself remembering things he told me and found that they made a whole new kind of sense to me. There was a lot of emphasis on how things felt, and how the lead for one thing was different from the lead of another, based on how the each lead felt. Very very useful. I think the lack of English meant that it was easier to bypass my brain, so it was easier for me to learn through my body than it otherwise would have been.

Oh, and he also taught me close embrace, from Day One (actually he started with that with the second song). He taught it to me in a completely matter-of-fact sort of way that made it very un-threatening, and went a long way towards making it seem like not a big deal.

I also have had several one-off lessons with him since then, and he taught me to trust enough to do a volcada, and he really taught me to have a free leg (boleos).

My "main" teacher: Much more explaining. I learned so much about musicality from him. I learned to take concepts and stretch them and apply them in new ways. A lot of just dancing, which let me feel things and work them out on my own. He would provide "training wheels" for me when I was just learning things, but would also make a point of telling me when he wasn't going to cover my mistakes any longer--the training wheels were being taken away. Very good for me, because it made me own my dancing and my mistakes...and also was a good confidence boost when it happened. He taught me to break rules--like always being on one foot or the other, except if lead not to. He just always pushed. Push, push, push...do more, do better, do bigger...add another layer of understanding, and another, and another. Dance to practice. What was good enough last week I am no longer considering good enough this week. He taught me even more to trust, to let myself go, to have confidence in my own dancing.

Miscellaneous other tidbits picked up here and there.

a lot of practice in milongas, learning how to handle the day-to-day situations of dancing with leader who each had their own quirks.

[Peaches]

I think its best way to learn leading is to dance with fat and huge women :) If you are able to lead them, you can lead anyone...
Real classy.

[tangonuevo]

Real classy.
:applause::applause::applause:

[AndaBien]

I think its best way to learn leading is to dance with fat and huge women :) If you are able to lead them, you can lead anyone...

No true at all. That one can wield a wrench does not imply that one can use forceps. That one can swing a sledge hammer does not imply that one can use a finishing hammer.

[spectator]

dear god I hope Wadpro is not a surgeon.

[chrisjj]

teaching is more generic and mainly related to a support for learning, while instructing is more related to give commands, instructions, rules. Nicely put.

But where there's been no learning, there's been no teaching - just attempted teaching. Attempted teaching is often very convincing... to those who judge by observing the teacher. To distinguish successful teaching one observes the learners.

[AndaBien]

But where there's been no learning, there's been no teaching - just attempted teaching. Attempted teaching is often very convincing... to those who judge by observing the teacher. To distinguish successful teaching one observes the learners.

I disagree. A teacher can conduct a class and have most students learn the topic and some students not learn it. I would say that teaching had occurred. That some students failed to learn doesn't change that. If the same class was held, but the students who learned were not in it, I would say that the teaching still occurred, even though the students did not learn. Teaching and learning are independent of each other. It is the student's job to do the learning, and some of them do not.

And, can a teacher do a crappy job of teaching? Absolutely. Can a good student still learn from the class? Absolutely.

[chrisjj]

> I disagree. A teacher can conduct a class and have most students learn
> the topic and some students not learn it. I would say that teaching had
> occurred.

I would too. (I said "no learrning", not "some learning".) I think we agree.

> And, can a teacher do a crappy job of teaching? Absolutely. Can
> a good student still learn from the class? Absolutely.

Sadly this is very true. As Rick McGarry's put it:

I don't have a lot of respect for the way tango is taught today. Most classes consist of copying the memorized steps of local teachers who have little grounding in the basics or the music. And the workshops put on by traveling tango celebrities are usually just as bad. Very few of them are respected, or even known, in the milongas. They market themselves with choreographed performances, and then they teach what that they perform. Learning tango this way is a recipe for disaster for both for the student, and for the community where he or she dances. It fills local milongas with dancers who are eager to show the acrobatic patterns they've picked up in class, and it drives away serious dancers. And worse, it obscures the power and beauty of Argentine tango by burying it under a layer of mindless, pretentious crap

http://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/1school_title.htm

[Steve Pastor]

I think any superior social dancer must leave teaching behind at some point and travel their own path.

If I substitute "experienced" for "superior", I can applaud this sentiment.
The absolute best teachers are the one who "teach you how to learn". That is, as was written, they teach you how the dance works.
As I took lesson after lesson, I too became increasing aware of how many steps and patterns were being taught to people who had no grounding in the basics; and by teachers who, if they actually knew how they themselves danced, could not communicate it effectively.
It was very, very tough, though, to get off the lesson train.
There always comes a time to leave the nest.

Now, I find myself thnking about taking a few lessons at the Portland ValenTango just for the heck of it, and because I've always avoided the festivals after several very bad experiences.

[Steve Pastor]

Well, I guess I agree with Rick McGarry. But the same can be said, I think, about most people who teach dance.
In the not too distant past dance was considered to be a basic social skill.
(I'll open myself up to ridcule here by saying the men of even my generation who I talk to a the Country Western place (for gosh sake), were sent to dance lessons as young men. Cowboy milongueros, I'm going to start calling us.)
The people at the top of organizations such as Arthur Murray Studios really knew their stuff. By the time you got to teachers, though, results varied because the expertise had been handed down with all of the loss with each "hand off".
AT has no real body to set standards, which is great for a flowering of styles and individuality. But it makes it even more of a buyer beware marketplace than a dance form that HAS well defined standards.

[chrisjj]

my blog: AmpsterTango (http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/)There is an impressive labour of love! :)

My pick: http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/search/label/traditional%20tango%20music

[Ampster]

Originally Posted by Ampster
my blog: AmpsterTango (http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/)


There is an impressive labour of love! :)

My pick: http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/search/label/traditional%20tango%20music

Thank you. :D

I do it so other leads can learn from my experiences, and not do the mistakes I've made (saves time and money).

Most of all, I want leads to continue improving so our follows will have a REALLY great tango experience—every single time. Without them, leads are nothing.