Silver before bronze??

[olddanceguy]

I have a teacher in my area of the country that has come out with a statement that silver american foxtrot does not stack onto the bronze level of american foxtrot.. Meaning it is ok to teach silver level technique and movement to absolute beginners.... I am a believer that Bronze level movement and technique should always be taught 1st to any new student giving them the proper foundation to increase their enjoyment and eventually a higher level of understanding in the education of Ballroom dancing... Any Comments or insight would be helpful...

Thank you

[and123]

While I agree that Bronze American Foxtrot bears little resemblance to Silver, the control and technique required to dance Silver steps make it unwise to just skip over Bronze. Plus social Foxtrot is very often those Bronze steps - why not learn them? Competitively, well.... even then I'd say you can develop a lot of technique and control to dance those Bronze steps *well*.
You know.... gliiiide, gliiiide, side-close instead of *PLOP*, *PLOP*, side-*PLOP*.

[Chris Stratton]

Doing bronze foxtrot with a supported rolling through the foot action would be a great basis, but most of the time this isnt given much attention when its taught or practiced (in particularly the importance of rolling the weight over the heel when moving backwards). That does still leave potential benefits in posture and partner communication though.

Another way of looking at it is that the silver continuity figures are not hard to dance sloppily, but extremely hard (more so even than their international foxtrot cousins) to dance cleanly.

That suggests that a practical path might be to do a little bronze foxtrot to set the idea of dancing, do silver for a while, discover with the aid of a video camera where ones faults lie, and then set about learning how to do foot closure waltz (and perhaps quickstep) cleanly.

[TinyDancer109]

Welcome to DF, olddanceguy! :D

I have always had very strong opinions on this matter in that bronze technique should be well understood before learning smooth.

There is another thread with a similar discussion here:

http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=34696

Hope this helps! :)

[latingal]

I second the welcome to DF olddanceguy!

[Casayoto]

It would depend on what the student/teachers goals were. If the student was going to compete at some point, then they would need to learn bronze foxtrot to do many competitions. If they were learning just for social value, then they should learn bronze foxtrot, as that is what is usually done socially. If they were going to compete, but the teacher wasn't going to put them in any competitions at the bronze level(not sure why you would do this), then they could skip bronze foxtrot, as long as they worked on bronze waltz and tango to improve their frame and basic movement.

Bronze foxtrot may not have much in common with silver foxtrot, other than frame and the same basic movement that is used in all smooth/standard dances, but I don't really see a situation in which it would make sense to skip it. I suppose if you took a bronze or silver standard dancer and switched them to smooth, you could pretty much ignore bronze american foxtrot, but for a complete beginner, it doesn't make much sense to me.

[fascination]

welcome...I would also like to point out that, with a search of our archives, one can find a thorough discussion of this in a similar thread or threads...with opinons being widely dispersed...perhaps our champion thread finder mod will come to the rescue...there is a bottom line argument for both issues...certainly, particularly in a dance like waltz, there is alot of good argument for why one might want to close feet before moving to continuity steps...but I am not enough of an expert to elaborate...and I certainly can attest to the merits of many long years spent working on technique in bronze and probably will be working that for life...but I also pretty much loathe bronze american foxtrot so I would have loved a teacher with that POV...and I believe we have had a few pros weigh in on that side of the fence

[Angel HI]

I have a teacher in my area of the country that has come out with a statement that silver american foxtrot does not stack onto the bronze level of american foxtrot.. Meaning it is ok to teach silver level technique and movement to absolute beginners.... I am a believer that Bronze level movement and technique should always be taught 1st to any new student giving them the proper foundation to increase their enjoyment and eventually a higher level of understanding in the education of Ballroom dancing... Any Comments or insight would be helpful...Thank you
Hi,

Your post is actually two-fold. If you are talking in terms of "levels" of dance, I would agree. First grade graduates to second grade which graduates to third grade, etc. There are things that one learns in the earlier/lower levels that aid one's learning/understanding at the higher levels.

However, dance is a wee different than that. Dance is about movement. In terms of walking, one has been doing it since the age of 6-8 months. We place one foot afront of the other, and balance in the middle. Silver dancing... not "a silver level of", but just plain silver dancing is also moving one foot afront of the other and balancing in the middle. At this very basic level of movement, it is quite possible to teach a student how to dance silver by bettering his/her natural movement through certain usages/techniques.

Bronze level dancing is still based upon the natural movement of walking with one foot afront of the other, and balancing in the middle. It simply, like in the case of fox, stops every few steps. The point here is that if one thinks of bronze/silver as levels of proficiency, then you are correct. If one thinks of bronze/silver as styles based upon the same qualities of movement, then the teacher has a point.

Of course, we take into account traditional BR schools, comps, etc. that require the follow of a certain protocol. Again, in this you have a point. But, for the sake of teaching, say 3 forward walks, there would be no reason to label them bronze or silver... just teach the proper way to dance 3 forward walks.

[Angel HI]

TC, where are you? We need your amazing thread finding skills.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Yeah, I remember this being discussed once. However, even if all you want is just to dance socially and don't care much about syllabi, you need to learn what most people do in your area. If they are doing mostly bronze, then you need to be able to do that, otherwise you'll be telling people "I hope you know silver, because I don't know (or forgot) how to do bronze" (I actually had a guy say that to me once).

[Terpsichorean Clod]

TC, where are you?
Hi Angel. :)

Welcome to Dance Forums, olddanceguy! I think you might consider reading this thread: Bronze Foxtrot - why even teach it? (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=900). :)

[fascination]

my hero

[Terpsichorean Clod]

:kissme:

[wonderwoman]

only loosely related to topic but I like when a bronze step in one smooth dance is actually a silver step in the others :)

[olddanceguy]

After reading the posted threads on related subjects i must still come to the conclusion that bronze american foxtrot is an essential part of our learning process here in the US.. it is used for social situations for beginner and advanced dancers on busy wedding sized floors. it has been found to begin to create balance and strength for further education of foxtrot and other dances... it seems to have created musicality issues for some students and has been found to even been taught abroad as a social alternative to international style.. i have read pro's and cons as to its existence, ultimatly still, I haven't found a decent reason to skip it as a dance to beginners in search of the ultimate goal of learning to dance together


thank you all

[Chris Stratton]

i have read pro's and cons as to its existence, ultimatly still, I haven't found a decent reason to skip it as a dance to beginners in search of the ultimate goal of learning to dance together

Its merits may easily be lost on beginners though. I only "got it" myself in retrospect, seeing it taught to the next fall's beginners.

(And as an adult, i discovered i actually *like* vegetables)

[latingal]

I think you might consider reading this thread: Bronze Foxtrot - why even teach it? (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=900). :)

*phew* I was starting to worry TC...

[Warren J. Dew]

We tried starting the MIT rookie class with continuity American style one year. They swept the early competitions even more strongly than usual, but in the process developed bad habits that would have been easier to prevent than to eradicate.

I therefore think it's better to start with closed foot position American style while teaching basic timing and partnering skills.

[Angel HI]

After reading the posted threads on related subjects i must still come to the conclusion that bronze american foxtrot is an essential part of our learning process here in the US.. it is used for social situations for beginner and advanced dancers on busy wedding sized floors. it has been found to begin to create balance and strength for further education of foxtrot and other dances... it seems to have created musicality issues for some students and has been found to even been taught abroad as a social alternative to international style.. i have read pro's and cons as to its existence, ultimatly still, I haven't found a decent reason to skip it as a dance to beginners in search of the ultimate goal of learning to dance together


thank you allAh! Now, I find this post to be different than the first. I agree w/ this. This post speaks to the relevance of the bronze style in america and american dancing, rather than an absolute mandate for teaching the style before some other b/c w/o it one couldn't possibly become a good dancer.

Thanks, TC for the link. It's great.

[Chris Stratton]

Ah! Now, I find this post to be different than the first. I agree w/ this. This post speaks to the relevance of the bronze style in america and american dancing, rather than an absolute mandate for teaching the style before some other b/c w/o it one couldn't possibly become a good dancer.


I would disagree that the american context is at the heart of it.

Waltz, quickstep, and sometimes slow rythm accomplish similar things in the international program before tackling that foxtrot.

Meanwhile, the incessantly outside partner or promenade continuity figures are extremely susceptible to developing bad habits, because they are survivable while the inline or at least closed versions used in the international foxtrot tend to fail in a non-ignorable way when the technique is off.

[Chris Stratton]

We tried starting the MIT rookie class with continuity American style one year. They swept the early competitions even more strongly than usual, but in the process developed bad habits that would have been easier to prevent than to eradicate.

I therefore think it's better to start with closed foot position American style while teaching basic timing and partnering skills.

I think bronze foxtrot works well for the teams because lof the tradition of demonstrating it well, teaching the technique seriously, and because beating out 100+ other couples by having the most flawless execution is a real goal to aspire to. A few miles across town isolated in a studio it might just feel silly or boring.

[Josh]

I have found that I also like the simplistic way of just "walking into" promenade position in american bronze foxtrot. It's a great teaching method for it and makes a great case for the simplicity of the promenade position, if the bodies are shown how to fit together easily in order to make it work.

[olddanceguy]

I have done some more digging. It seems this conversation has been going on for some time. As i have read into the late morning hours now ... It seems everyone has agreed that the highest level of technique should be taught to a student that they can understand based upon their level of understanding... your average 60 year old couple trying this out for the first time in their lives probably shouldn't be taught how to do an open right turn complete with use of alignment... they will run away.. However a dillegent student who has studied the use of legs, feet, topline and timing may have a better chance at succeeding a higher descriptive level of teaching these techniques.. In other words it takes a student a while to learn to speak our language as teachers and then understand it in their bodies as well takes even longer.

Good night all

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=30357

[TinyDancer109]

Hi,
However, dance is a wee different than that. Dance is about movement. In terms of walking, one has been doing it since the age of 6-8 months. We place one foot afront of the other, and balance in the middle. Silver dancing... not "a silver level of", but just plain silver dancing is also moving one foot afront of the other and balancing in the middle. At this very basic level of movement, it is quite possible to teach a student how to dance silver by bettering his/her natural movement through certain usages/techniques.

Bronze level dancing is still based upon the natural movement of walking with one foot afront of the other, and balancing in the middle. It simply, like in the case of fox, stops every few steps. The point here is that if one thinks of bronze/silver as levels of proficiency, then you are correct. If one thinks of bronze/silver as styles based upon the same qualities of movement, then the teacher has a point.


Out of curiosity, Angel HI, which teaching path do you personally take? :)

[TinyDancer109]

We tried starting the MIT rookie class with continuity American style one year. They swept the early competitions even more strongly than usual, but in the process developed bad habits that would have been easier to prevent than to eradicate.

I therefore think it's better to start with closed foot position American style while teaching basic timing and partnering skills.

Interesting, thanks for sharing! :)

[drejenpha]

So much of doing well with bronze smooth foxtrot is standing up straight and moving with confidence... It holds true for so much of dancing, but when I show it to our beginners (we have a strong tradition of not really learning american before competing in it) I basically have to tell them that the basic is similar to quickstep without rise, teach them how to navigate a corner, give them a promenade underarm turn based off of something that they already know, and tell them to stand up straight.

I love bronze smooth fox and still dance it in silver (living far from smooth coaches limits things a bit) so I'm glad that odg isn't dismissing it.

[Larinda McRaven]

I think bronze foxtrot works well for the teams because lof the tradition of demonstrating it well, teaching the technique seriously, and because beating out 100+ other couples by having the most flawless execution is a real goal to aspire to. A few miles across town isolated in a studio it might just feel silly or boring.

What? How can you confuse a goal with a setting?

Practicing alone in the hallway with a tile floor of 34 can be quite silly and boring too. Practicing in my studio with the intent to go to Ohio and dance 5 rounds of callbacks against the most fierce and competitive 40 somethings in bronze foxtrot can be very satisfying.

[Chris Stratton]

Yes, though generally competition results are better if you skip the promenade and underarm turns and just try to perfect a few closed basics. Typically in a many-round competition only one couple using anything more risky will survive to the final, and they are unlikely to win.

[Chris Stratton]

What? How can you confuse a goal with a setting?

Practicing alone in the hallway with a tile floor of 34 can be quite silly and boring too. Practicing in my studio with the intent to go to Ohio and dance 5 rounds of callbacks against the most fierce and competitive 40 somethings in bronze foxtrot can be very satisfying.

The point is that having a ready technique-valuing competition outlet gives justification to what might othwerise be a rather boring exercise of drilling closed basics. It actually redefines student's idea of what dancing is.

You can walk from building 34 to that 100 couple comp and and win it with 3-4 figures. Thats an appropriate setting for the dance as a technical stepping stone.

If studio students feel they have to go to ohio for an application, then they are by comparison very much isolated. And the existentence of that as a goal for learning only applies to those who can afford the trip - instead of the majority of those who have consistently taken part in classes.

[Me]

First I would like to say, welcome to the DF!

I would like to weigh in on this discussion, because just this week, we have started a session of beginning silver foxtrot, and our coach graciously allowed for us to welcome people who have never danced into the class. The class was very successful, and I'm pretty sure we are going to have even more dancers next week. Everybody had a great time, and everybody was smoothly navigating the room.

We opened our doors to beginners to a beginning silver foxtrot class. If it were an intermediate silver foxtrot class, beginners would not be allowed to take it.

When our silver dancers get paired up with bronze dancers at socials, they quickly figure out the closing step. There is no frustration, unhappiness, tripping/falling/injury... It really isn't such a big deal. We need to give beginning dancers credit as intelligent people, and as creatures who have walked this Earth for their entire lives. :)

[Warren J. Dew]

I think bronze foxtrot works well for the teams because lof the tradition of demonstrating it well, teaching the technique seriously, and because beating out 100+ other couples by having the most flawless execution is a real goal to aspire to. A few miles across town isolated in a studio it might just feel silly or boring.

I generally agree, though I would put it slightly differently: bronze foxtrot is useful when used as a vehicle for teaching basic technique, but it can get boring if the point is merely to learn the figures.

[DL]

Personally, I have never yet tired of bronze american foxtrot. I'm constantly finding little ways to use it for improvement, while at the same time enjoying a dance with a partner of just about any skill level.

In fact one of my all-time favorite social dances was a bronze american foxtrot with a local pro. I think I led at most 6 different figures. By all indications she got a kick out of it too. Good execution of basic steps can be a lot of fun.

[Mengu]

You can walk from building 34 to that 100 couple comp and and win it with 3-4 figures. Thats an appropriate setting for the dance as a technical stepping stone.

I can sort of vouch for this from experience (though I've never been in a 100 couple comp). Many moons ago when I used to dance american smooth, and didn't know much waltz, just before a comp, I decided we weren't going to muck around with fancy waltz steps we had just learned. It was a small crowded floor. I just did 1-6 reverse turn, closed change, 1-6 natural turn, closed change. Out of 16 or so couples, who were all dancing circles around us (or so it seemed), we got 2nd place, which to me at the time was shocking, though in hind sight, I understand a little better. Judges are not impressed with your repertoire, they look at how well you do, whatever it is you do.

Having said that, there is a reason why you see pros dancing natural turns, but not bronze foxtrot basics. It feels like a pretty awkward step once you have developed certain habits (maybe that's just me though). But it's certainly a place to start.

[Chris Stratton]

Yes, what I neglected to add about the college kids using it as a technical stepping stone is that they move on from it fairly quickly. Because only a handful of figures are needed, not much class time goes into the dance, which means they can quickly follow up with both waltzes, quickstep, both tangos, etc. If it does come up again in class its as a context to talk about technique rather than to add to that dance specifically.
In short its a stepping stone not a procedural obstacle, because its value is made apparent and the actual investment is quite short. They might compete it from October through January, but during that time class subjects quickly move on to the other bronze dances, and they might start competing continuity and/or international foxtrot in February.

[TinyDancer109]

Yes, what I neglected to add about the college kids using it as a technical stepping stone is that they move on from it fairly quickly. Because only a handful of figures are needed, not much class time goes into the dance, which means they can quickly follow up with both waltzes, quickstep, both tangos, etc. If it does come up again in class its as a context to talk about technique rather than to add to that dance specifically.
In short its a stepping stone not a procedural obstacle, because its value is made apparent and the actual investment is quite short. They might compete it from October through January, but during that time class subjects quickly move on to the other bronze dances, and they might start competing continuity and/or international foxtrot in February.

Wow, that fast??? it took me 2 years to get from bronze to silver/continuity style

[and123]

Wow, that fast??? it took me 2 years to get from bronze to silver/continuity style

Collegiate comps are their own special beast. You generally get "promoted" whether you're ready or not :p

[Chris Stratton]

As several have posted, it is possible to approach continuity directly, though of debateable long term wisdom.

My feeling is that learning to dance goes quite quickly when focus is kept on a small number of key skills guided by precise functional explanations that can be literally applied and supported by opportunities to practice them, but that everyone potentially has times in their dance life when they are open to this, and definitely times when they arent.

For example, when I can get one of my students to put on practice shoes or something with a comparably stable heel, and gain comfort supporting herself from that heel while sending her body back into a step, she tends to soon develop a smoothly sustained slow international foxtrot action. It is of course a difficult task to learn to use the standing heel to support and slow the movement, but an entirely accomplishable one if the possibility is fully explored.

[Larinda McRaven]

You can walk from building 34 to that 100 couple comp and and win it with 3-4 figures. Thats an appropriate setting for the dance as a technical stepping stone.
...
If studio students feel they have to go to ohio for an application, then they are by comparison very much isolated .

If the college kid never goes further away than down the street a few hundred yards to dance... then THEY are isolated. Me and my "studio" students went to about 20 comps last year, that is hardly isolated. Regardless of goals.

And none of that has anything to do with whether or not it is important to learn close basic bronze foxtrot before continuity.

[Chris Stratton]

Collegiate comps are their own special beast. You generally get "promoted" whether you're ready or not :p

Not in the usual case though. Come approx february that years class is socially promoted from pre bronze to bronze, but its the same group of people. The only ones pushed into silver that fast (where they have the option, not requirement, of continuity) are those who won enough times against their beginner class in the fall to be asked to move on and give others a chance.

What the college comps with calendar experience limits are not setup to handle well are people who participated casually for a while before deciding to focus more seriously. In order to keep bronze for inexperienced beginners, those coming in with more length of experience must enter silver or higher. So for example, unaffiliated adults from a studio background are welcome to enter, but typically are not elgible below silver.

[and123]

Only trying to point out to TinyDancer109 that in Pro-Am you can dance Bronze for many years, while in collegiate you generally cannot. Therefore the attitude that "I'm only gonna use this (Bronze American Foxtrot) for a few months, so why spend much time on it?" can come into play. Whether it should or shouldn't is, I believe, what the OP was wondering about.

[Chris Stratton]

If the college kid never goes further away than down the street a few hundred yards to dance... then THEY are isolated. Me and my "studio" students went to about 20 comps last year, that is hardly isolated.

No, because 100 couples is enough competition to highlight what is and isnt important - its big enough and has enough generation to generation feedback that there are noticeable evolution effects.

and none of that has anything to do with whether or not it is important to learn close basic bronze foxtrot before continuity.

Actually it is directly related. The desired look of bronze foxtrot in the collegiate system is in slight conflict with what a number of judges elsewhere have gone on the record as wanting to see (perfectly smooth vs slight bounce). The no-bounce collegiate version is simpler, more directly aimed at developing skills for later application, and then quickly left behind in favor of those later applications. This tends to neutralize most of the arguments for skipping it, which might otherwise deserve more consideration.

In other words, one answer to the use it first or not question is to use a version optomized for future value, for just as long as it's being of value.

[Chris Stratton]

Only trying to point out to TinyDancer109 that in Pro-Am you can dance Bronze for many years, while in collegiate you generally cannot. Therefore the attitude that "I'm only gonna use this (Bronze American Foxtrot) for a few months, so why spend much time on it?" can come into play. Whether it should or shouldn't is, I believe, what the OP was wondering about.

You can dance bronze foxtrot essentially forever in adult amateur comps too, now that its a mystery how one might place out.

But the more important question might be if its a good investment to do so. If someone wants to do that, fine. But if someone wants to eventually do continuity, a path that doesnt efficiently lead through to it is probably not a wise investment. In my mind that means learning the bronze action, but skipping most of the bronze choreography.

[millitiz]

I guess I will be one example of learning silver before bronze, in a sense anyway. So on our team, we focus more on international styles. So basically I learned international foxtrot before I learned American one (roughly speaking). In fact, I learned the American from dance lessons before social dances and a few 10-minutes-before-on-the-floor crash lessons.
I actually think that it is totally possible to do silver foxtrot straight, with the assumption that one is also working on other dances (waltz, tango, Quickstep for international). So my argument is that, well, if Bronze American Foxtrot is so essential and necessary, then all those people who learn only international styles are pretty screwed, right?
As people pointed out, Bronze American Foxtrot (I am so tired to type all three words, I'll just use BAF) is a nice step stone for people to learn some essential techniques. To be transfer of weight, swing, whatever. But on the other hand, one could also learn it through silver Foxtrot. The steps are, in a sense, vehicles of techniques (although one could always look at it the other way around). I would actually argue that one can also learn the same techniques from Feather/3 steps, maybe with Natural/reverse turn. Taking away all the techniques, Feather/3 step is probably something like walking straight forward.
I think it is more of a philosophical difference to do BAF first or straight to SAF.

[Chris Stratton]

BAF is certainly not essential, and indeed waltz and quickstep can accomplish a lot.

However, the reliance on promenade and outside partner in SAF had a tendancy to discourage the develoment of precision.

BAF is so simple that it gives a good opportunity to examine poise without the complication of much rise and fall, swing or turn. And it gives you two heel leads or toe releases per cycle, without having to worry about the energy from a downswing getting you ahead of the music and stealing your opportunity to use the feet.

So yes, you can learn without it, but its harder to focus attention one one skill at a time when you are facing the overlapping challenges of a dance with more dynamic movement, frequent promenade / outside partner, etc.

[tangotime]

). So my argument is that, well, if Bronze American Foxtrot is so essential and necessary, then all those people who learn only international styles are pretty screwed, right?





What you need is "context "... the Amer.style was "invented " ( only a bronze version ) to suit a specific era in Amer. style dancing.. the time when the music of the day needed movements that would reflect that . ( think Jazz era ) .

It was simple and effective for the task at hand.. getting around a dance floor with a limited variety ( that all came much later ).

The system as you know see it, was implented, and based more upon the English medal test system , back in the early 50s . It has been implemented with much more variety and Technique, to the point where it has evolved into a completely different " animal ".. the bounce that is quite often referenced, is somewhat of a carryover from that bygone era...

The English took a different " Pathway ", and based their style on a much more free flowing interpretation ( much like the Amer. siver ) and their choices of music reflected that..

[Me]

Tangotime!! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/liebe/love-smiley-011.gif

I was hoping you'd come to this thread and weigh in. ;)