Englighten me, Please... [Archive]

Peaches

01-15-2010, 01:49 PM

It's Argentine tango, it's not that unusual, it's not necessarily the future for everyone and everything. To my eyes it looked fairly traditional, with the exception of a few moves and a different embrace that was used now and again.

This, being a didactic exercise, shows it being used more than I would ever like to see it used in the course of the dance.

As for "do people actually learn it," are you serious or just trying to start a flame war? It's a didactic video. Which means it was meant to demonstrate what was taught in a class. Which I'm guessing would be the people sitting there watching. Which meant that people do learn it...or are taught it...or are instructed in it or guided in it or illucidated or whatever other term strikes anyone's fancy.

I have learned "it" (what ARE we talking about, anyhow--nuevo dancing (dear god, lets not go there again) or the alternative embrace that's highlighted in the video?) as part of multiple private lessons over the course of three years. It is a very interesting exercise in following. Or do you mean nuevo dancing? Yes, people learn it all the time, next question.

As for people looking down at their feet...what does that have to do with the price of eggs? Some people take classes for years and never get it; some people take private lessons and learn quickly; some people just never seem to get it; some people figure they can learn on the floor and...whoo boy.

As for being "the pop dance of the future." Again..are you serious? The pop dance of the future will be some variation on grinding/freaking/freestyling (or whatever the kids these days are doing and calling it). Or do you mean the future of tango? Not that I belive it, but I feel like just going ahead and saying yes. Mourn Real Tango (tm) now.

opendoor

01-15-2010, 01:58 PM

Hi Mario, you want to challenge me, do you ;)

Think I heard a little polemical tone in it, right? But, I do not want to comment on the dancing shown above.

I think it is not a question of argentine or alternative tango.
Its a question of style,
of proficiency,
of age, and of your dancing community.

Believe me, the plural of tango dancers in BAs are dancing this way, but you will not find out, unless you visite their venues. Only tourists are dancing all the way traditionally.

Tango is a social dance, and that means: men follow women, women follow venues, venues follow styles. Better to wear your shirt above the trousers and have fun. By the way, you are the same age as me.

opendoor

01-15-2010, 02:06 PM

..It is not new, and..

Hi Lilly, do you know why they mimic Homer´s lay out?

opendoor

01-15-2010, 02:10 PM

..It is not new, and..

Hi Lilly, do you know why they mimic Homer´s lay-out?

Lilly_of_the_valley

01-15-2010, 02:15 PM

Hi Lilly, do you know why they mimic Homer´s lay out?

I am not sure I understand what you mean.
The video is taken by the same student who regularly attends the same string of lessons in Cellspace (featured in this video) and The Beat. He videotapes the class demos and performances at those and other venues (different set of youtube videos) as part of a didactic project started by Homer and Co. You can find a link to the videos on Homer's website Organic Tango.
Does that answer your question?

Ampster

01-15-2010, 02:19 PM

I don't want to be forming an attitude and so I'm asking to be informed.
This is a link to a 'teaching' video that I hold is probably the future of
'Argentine' tango in the US.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUoq6ioMsQ0
The question; is it "Argentine" Tango or just 'tango',
whereupon it will probably gravitate to some new name in the future?

This is in cell space in San Francisco. This is the same crowd as that is predominantly "Nuevo" and/or "Alternative" milonga crowd. The same crowd who are followers of Home and Christina Ladas of San Francisco.

As for the name, its all "Argentine Tango." In the AT circle, its known as Tango. It may be nuevo, milonguero, salon, etceteras, but its all tango. The exception is Ballroom tango which is a totally different thing

As for the future of tango... Depends on the demographic. This type of dancing has always been popular with younger tango dancers, as they get 9easily) enamored with the cool moves. Or, with people who just like showy stuff, and some just like to show off. But, when one gets more mature, and a deep appreciation for that "Tango Connection" develops, then people gravitate towards the more intimate close embrace tango forms.

Second question: Do students actually learn to dance this? Most that I've seen spend a year taking classes and then can only look down at their feet and have a sheepish smile on their face as they try to get thru the first two or three steps.

People try to learn this, not all succeed. Some people try to force stuff like this on the floor leading to complications and a botched tanda. IMHE and IMHO, too many people try to do stuff like this without learning the basics. The need for instant gratification becomes self defeating in the long run. Tango (AT) are one of those things that takes time to learn and before you can be good. Any move poorly executed is painful to dance... and to watch.

Third question:..what do you think of it..will it be THE new pop dance of the future that I'm guessing it will?:confused:

For a pop dance, NOPE. Tango (and any partner dance) takes too long to learn, as opposed to the macarena, the electric slide, the bump and grind, etceteras, that require hardly any training. So, in answer to your third question Nooooo.

opendoor

01-15-2010, 02:20 PM

Does that answer your question?
It does, thanks !

OD

Lilly_of_the_valley

01-15-2010, 02:22 PM

People try to learn this, not all succeed. Some people try to force stuff like this on the floor leading to complications and a botched tanda. IMHE and IMHO, too many people try to do stuff like this without learning the basics. The need for instant gratification becomes self defeating in the long run. Tango (AT) are one of those things that takes time to learn and before you can be good. Any move poorly executed is painful to dance... and to watch.

Very true.

chanchan

01-15-2010, 02:51 PM

The question; is it "Argentine" Tango or just 'tango',
whereupon it will probably gravitate to some new name in the future?

Plain old argentine tango.
Of course the style is different, but soltadas existed one century ago...

Maybe it's not the most important thing to teach to a beginner, not the best move to do in a crowded milonga, while it can be very good for a show...
Anyway students can learn it: it is not more difficult to lead and follow than any other step.

Mario7

01-15-2010, 03:06 PM

Lilly_of_the_valley

01-15-2010, 03:29 PM

Thanks for the many replies...ok you've answered my questions nicely..but one which I didn't phrase properly....do you think that this form of tango will ultimately replace traditional? Please, excuse my bluntness but when I read Jan's blog on the Milonguero dance, it starts to read like the obituary pages ..and in the videos of traditional dances like Lo de Celia, all the white hair and years-of-pasta bellies add up to a place that young folk are shunning...are we viewing the dance of the elephant's graveyard?..is the embrace a thing of yesteryear? Will dances like the video above be the way tango is danced in the future?...Is it becoming popular in BsAs among the young? Afterall, 30 years from now, today's young will be the oldest of the dancers.

Mario, I was in Buenos Aires last November-December, also the same time in 2008. From my observations, and from many of my friends reports, too, traditional tango gains in popularity. There are more people in traditional milongas in general, much more younger people,too. Also I found more venues with great dancers to dance with the way I love to dance. Lo de Celia, yes, tends to get older crowd, and in general on a week night older people go out to dance. But on the weekends, there are more younger milongueros, and lots of them dance very well. This time I met people from over the world (including some places that had been initially put on the map as tango deserts or bad-tango-places, and for a good reason :) ) including leaders, who were great dancers. That was new from my previous visit, and a very nice surprise.
Actually, I see somewhat similar trend in my community. More tango newcomers are drawn to traditional ways.

mkjohnson

01-15-2010, 03:44 PM

Take heart, Mario. The situation in BsAs is better than some would say. I have been reassured from some dancers that live there, and a few more that visit frequently (one that is concidentally in two of Jantango's videos), that the younger generation is *not* abandoning the style and traditions of the older milongueros. Lily-of-the-Valley is quite correct - rumours of the death of traditional tango have been greatly exaggerated.

mkjohnson

01-15-2010, 03:46 PM

I am seeing a similar trend beginning (very slowly) in my own community.

Actually, I see somewhat similar trend in my community. More tango newcomers are drawn to traditional ways.

Ampster

01-15-2010, 03:48 PM

....do you think that this form of tango will ultimately replace traditional? Please, excuse my bluntness but when I read Jan's blog on the Milonguero dance, it starts to read like the obituary pages ..and in the videos of traditional dances like Lo de Celia, all the white hair and years-of-pasta bellies add up to a place that young folk are shunning...are we viewing the dance of the elephant's graveyard?

Yes, its true the milonguero viejos are dyeing off. However, there are droves of people who dance in close embrace. Yes, their passing will be lamented, but the close embrace style will carry on.

Why? because people want and need to be embraced. Done properly, it's intimate, respectful, and it just simply feels good. It even feels better when you can dance in a tango in a close embrace.

You can dance in the open and look good, but you can't have as intimate a feeling when you dance in the open. However, it really is impressive to watch (executed properly).

There will always be close embrace people and nuevo people. They just shift from style to style.

Close embrace is just as challenging to learn. (http://ampstertango.blogspot.com/2009/04/intricacy-of-simplicity.html)

dchester

01-15-2010, 04:20 PM

Mario, there is typically a difference in what someone does in a demo or performance, vs plain old social dancing at a milonga. I didn't see much of anything I would consider to be new, and I wouldn't worry too much about it.

FWIW, what would be your take on this performance (below)? This is why I've said in the past that not all milongueros danced milonguero style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWwDIfb6J30

opendoor

01-16-2010, 02:27 AM

Mario, you cling to your style. You are looking for certainty. But, everything flows. And already did flow in the history of tango.

And I think it belongs to a sincere education, to throw over one´s former aimes again and again, and to begin anew.

...is the embrace a thing of yesteryear?..

Tango once started with an open embrace, so let it return to this way of holding for a while. It will continue changing every decade, anyway.

..when I read Jan's blog on the Milonguero dance, it starts to read like the obituary pages .....

Already posted my observations among the young generation of BsAs above. But, the style has already changed indeed, except among the children out of the old dynasties (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=34143) and families of Urquiza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_tango#Salon_tango).

Before tango I did TaiJi. And the quarrels among the different styles and familiy traditions are sooo similar.

newbie

01-16-2010, 05:35 AM

The music (Verdemar) is traditional, the dance too, it's traditional argentine tango. Ok they don't dance too well and IMHO there is no soltada in this soltada class but generally speaking it's very common argentine tango.

IMHO a soltada is more like what Todaro does here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe7qOnmqOxM around 1:01

Dave Bailey

01-16-2010, 03:12 PM

I don't want to be forming an attitude and so I'm asking to be informed.
This is a link to a 'teaching' video that I hold is probably the future of
'Argentine' tango in the US.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUoq6ioMsQ0
What makes you think a single video focussing on a single step shows the direction of AT across a continent-wide country? :confused:

The question; is it "Argentine" Tango or just 'tango',
Well, it's a soltada.

Are "soltadas" Argentine Tango? I dunno, but I've been taught soltadas by Argentinian Tango teachers.

For example, I attended a Pablo Alonso class (http://www.jivetango.co.uk/Reviews/PabloAlonsoClass.html) on soltadas last August.

To me, it's a nuevo step. Whether "nuevo" is AT, is another question.

Second question: Do students actually learn to dance this?
I can only speak for myself, and the answer is yes, I learnt soltadas and occasionally use them.

Third question:..what do you think of it..will it be THE new pop dance of the future that I'm guessing it will?:confused:
What, nuevo or soltadas?

style

01-17-2010, 02:01 AM

Tango (and any partner dance) takes too long to learn, as opposed to the macarena, the electric slide, the bump and grind, etceteras, that require hardly any training.

That is so true. My kids were trying to explain to me why nobody wants to learn ballroom dancing at their school. They want instant gratification. Partnered dancing takes hard work to make it look easy.

style

01-17-2010, 02:03 AM

How come my Copy and Paste didn't show up with that cool white box?

Steve Pastor

01-17-2010, 01:58 PM

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/editor/quote.gif

Look for the icon at the top right of the Quick Reply box. It will paste a formatting statement that looks like this and anything in there will be in a lighter colored box.

ps I used zeroes in my example so it wouldn't work like it's supposed to.

bordertangoman

01-18-2010, 04:18 AM

Steve Pastor

01-18-2010, 01:00 PM

people like different music and like their dance to be lively and energetic which tango is not. You're not going to get aerobic exercise from dancing tango,
Maybe it depends which tango songs you dance to, because I certainly hear a lot of things in the music that encourage me to to dance lively and energeticly. Meanwhile, I watch other people progress dolefully around the floor ignoring the variations in the music. That's how tango is supposed to be, or so many people think.
How many times have I heard that there are no pauses in milonga, for instance. There sure as heck are. They are often brief, and they naturally occur at the end of phrases in the music. The pauses I dance are corresponding brief.
On occassion there is the actual music that truly has no energetic "solos" for any of the instruments, and I almost surprise myself by observing, by gosh, I CAN dance slowly and without much energy.

I fully understand that my view is distinctly in the minority, and I realize, too, that there is a price to be paid for this. If you believe that Argentine Tango began and ended with the Golden Age and that all dancers at all times danced as if they had little space and that this is the one true authentic way to dance Argentine Tango, my reactions to the music are out of line. I would disagree and am willing to pay the price.

Zoopsia59

01-18-2010, 08:29 PM

The pop dance of the future will be some variation on grinding/freaking/freestyling (or whatever the kids these days are doing and calling it). .

CrumpTango... I've been trying to imagine what that would look like....

Peaches

01-19-2010, 06:18 AM

Heh. I can see it being a useful mix. I'm pretty sure I've gotten pretty close. Fun!

Mladenac

01-19-2010, 07:06 AM

I fully understand that my view is distinctly in the minority, and I realize, too, that there is a price to be paid for this. If you believe that Argentine Tango began and ended with the Golden Age and that all dancers at all times danced as if they had little space and that this is the one true authentic way to dance Argentine Tango, my reactions to the music are out of line. I would disagree and am willing to pay the price.

You should beware of Jantango :banana:

Steve Pastor

01-19-2010, 11:03 AM

Um, yeah. I sure am.
I did have what I think was an interesting thought about the cabaceo while reading soemthing on her site the other day. It had to do with men and women sitting on opposite sides of the room at milongas, the traditional arrangement. That rarely happens outside of Argentina, it seems to me. The cabaceo then doesn't work as well wihout the physical separation of the sexes, and is a grafted on custom to most of us. Same goes with dancing small and without energy in spite of the music.
Someone who should know better said to me just the other day, that "close embrace" means taking small steps. Not true, unless you want it to be.

chrisjj

01-19-2010, 11:09 AM

Believe me, the plural of tango dancers in BAs are dancing this way, but you will not find out, unless you visite their venues. Only tourists are dancing all the way traditionally.

That is an astonishing misrepresentation. There are about 100 milongas in BsAs at which the dancing is almost all traditional tango de salon, and most of it from locals. There are about two milongas plus a few practicas at which the dancing is the tango de workshop depicted in the video.

chrisjj

01-19-2010, 11:19 AM

This is a link to a 'teaching' video that I hold is probably the future of 'Argentine' tango in the US.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUoq6ioMsQ0
Surely only in the USA could dancers so bad be considered fit to teach. But then perhaps the student who posted this is aware - I see he has disabled viewer ratings and free commenting.

Peaches

01-19-2010, 11:32 AM

Damn. That's harsh and out of line. Care to offer comments about what, specifically, you found lacking in their dancing?

Ampster

01-19-2010, 11:52 AM

Surely only in the USA could dancers so bad be considered fit to teach. But then perhaps the student who posted this is aware - I see he has disabled viewer ratings and free commenting.

So, you're assuming that everywhere else in the world, all teachers are excellent dancers?

Would you kindly care to elaborate on the process on how you reached this assessment?

chanchan

01-19-2010, 12:03 PM

Surely only in the USA could dancers so bad be considered fit to teach. But then perhaps the student who posted this is aware - I see he has disabled viewer ratings and free commenting.
Anyway, the couple in that video is actually not dancing: they are just showing some steps, and the video is presented as a "didactic demo", we shouldn't give any judgement without seeing them dancing.
So, I don't think that Mario7 was questioning about their dancing ability:
he was asking if what they do (maybe the soltada or some out of axis movements) is argentine or not.
I think we can say that it is argentine, and not even new.
Maybe what they are doing is something less, but sure nothing more than argentine tango.

dchester

01-19-2010, 12:20 PM

Surely only in the USA could dancers so bad be considered fit to teach. But then perhaps the student who posted this is aware - I see he has disabled viewer ratings and free commenting.
1) I don't agree that Luz y Alex are bad dancers.
2) I don't agree that one needs to be a great dancer, to be a great teacher.

Now a question for you: What qualifies you to make such a seemingly rude / inflammatory / ridiculous statement about the USA?

:rolleyes:

Lilly_of_the_valley

01-19-2010, 01:51 PM

Surely only in the USA could dancers so bad be considered fit to teach. But then perhaps the student who posted this is aware - I see he has disabled viewer ratings and free commenting.

People who are bad dancers, who are not fit to teach tango, and who are nonetheless teaching exist in any country in the world, not only in the USA. Even in Buenos Aires there are plenty of those.

Heather2007

01-19-2010, 02:16 PM

Surely only in the USA could dancers so bad be considered fit to teach. But then perhaps the student who posted this is aware - I see he has disabled viewer ratings and free commenting.

What part of this couple's dancing made you arrive at such a duff conclusion. And to say "only in the USA" is as backward a statement as saying only a certain race of people commit crimes or have children out of wedlock.

Lilly_of_the_valley

01-19-2010, 02:57 PM

Oops, I just realized that "only in the US" post was a typical flame war starter. :rolleyes:

bafonso

01-19-2010, 03:19 PM

Oops, I just realized that "only in the US" post was a typical flame war starter. :rolleyes:

He has clearly not been to any top tier tango festival in US. But, that's his loss, not ours. :-)

opendoor

01-19-2010, 03:24 PM

There are about 100 milongas in BsAs...

..with all the tourists and a few milongueros (which are also taxi dancers at some extend, too). Its kind of an industry! And, thats no reproach, its ok.

... at which the dancing is almost ... tango de salon..

thats another question, and I think we would not agree, what Salón actually is and should look like ;)

Dave Bailey

01-19-2010, 03:48 PM

It had to do with men and women sitting on opposite sides of the room at milongas, the traditional arrangement. That rarely happens outside of Argentina, it seems to me. The cabaceo then doesn't work as well wihout the physical separation of the sexes, and is a grafted on custom to most of us. .
Agree.

For it to work, you need to enforce layout, lighting, size, and so on. Which is what those people in Hong Kong did a while back - I wonder how that went?

chrisjj

01-19-2010, 09:44 PM

People who are bad dancers, who are not fit to teach tango, and who are nonetheless teaching exist in any country in the world, not only in the USA.I challenge you to show an example as bad as this from outside the USA.

Even in Buenos Aires there are plenty of those.This couple included, apparently:

http://www.luzyalex.com/
Welcome to Luz & Alex's Tango Site! We teach group and private classes in San Francisco and Buenos Aires.

chanchan

01-20-2010, 06:16 AM

What part of this couple's dancing made you arrive at such a duff conclusion.
I try to guess... :rolleyes:
Maybe the fact that they are almost constantly out of the music? You know, the beat is not an opinion.

Dave Bailey

01-20-2010, 06:33 AM

I try to guess... :rolleyes:
Maybe the fact that they are almost constantly out of the music?
I didn't really notice, but it could be that the video / sound was out of synch, or it could be simply that the teachers weren't teaching musicality (although I agree that musicality should be ingrained in all demos).

Personally, I don't think a traditional AT track works with soltadas very well, but that's just me.

You know, the beat is not an opinion.
Opinion or option?

I personally don't believe it's necessary to dance to the "beat", you dance to the music.

Again, that's just me.

chanchan

01-20-2010, 06:58 AM

I didn't really notice, but it could be that the video / sound was out of synch, or it could be simply that the teachers weren't teaching musicality (although I agree that musicality should be ingrained in all demos).

You are right, that's why I told we shouldn't discuss about their dancing ability until we can see them dancing, or at less trying to dance.

Personally, I don't think a traditional AT track works with soltadas very well, but that's just me.
So you think that, for example, this dancers should choice another track, or Derecho Viejo can be good for them?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9fpCj5hY_U

Opinion or option?

I personally don't believe it's necessary to dance to the "beat", you dance to the music.
Of course, to the beat, to the melody, to anything you want.. but it must be somewhere in the music, not just in your imagination! :D

Peaches

01-20-2010, 07:44 AM

Of course, to the beat, to the melody, to anything you want.. but it must be somewhere in the music, not just in your imagination! :DFunny, I saw nothing in that video that would suggest that they weren't dancing to the music. Maybe not with the beat at all tmes, but thank god for that. I wish more men would dance to something other than the beat in the music.

Would you care to point out examples of where you felt they were dancing without the music?

bordertangoman

01-20-2010, 08:00 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9fpCj5hY_U
Of course, to the beat, to the melody, to anything you want.. but it must be somewhere in the music, not just in your imagination! :D

well I agree with Peaches; their dancing for the most part is with the music

which just makes me wonder what you are hearing..

they have chosen a slow melodic piece to dance to; a stronger or faster rhythm wouldnt work for the flowing movements.

chanchan

01-20-2010, 08:28 AM

Funny, I saw nothing in that video that would suggest that they weren't dancing to the music. Maybe not with the beat at all tmes, but thank god for that. I wish more men would dance to something other than the beat in the music.

Would you care to point out examples of where you felt they were dancing without the music?
When there is just one instrument that is playing (for example the voice, like in 2:30-2:45) you have not so many choices: either you follow it, or you are out of music: if the voice makes a pause or a sustained note, you can't keep on doing your steps. If your step is before or after the note attack, you are out of the music IMHO.
If you don't like to be so constrained with the pauses, you must choice a different kind of music.

bordertangoman

01-20-2010, 09:00 AM

When there is just one instrument that is playing (for example the voice, like in 2:30-2:45) you have not so many choices: either you follow it, or you are out of music: if the voice makes a pause or a sustained note, you can't keep on doing your steps. If your step is before or after the note attack, you are out of the music IMHO.
If you don't like to be so constrained with the pauses, you must choice a different kind of music.

Your "cant" is just one interpretation: why not continue to move with a sustained note and the singer is answered immediately by an instrument with a similar sustained note;
Too many tango dancers mark the rhythm with their feet and think therefore they have to move melodically with the feet but slow/melodic/flowing movement can come from the torso and the feet merely sustain the movement.
Or the leader can move slowly or stay in oone spot and lead the follower to a quicker pace; there are so many possibilities....

for dancing in a more complex way good dancers can move across slowly fast staccato rhythms; or as many professionals do they have to be another instrument with its own notes amongst the music. Any musician must hear what others around him are playing AND be able to follow his own score..
Musicality is interpretation first and foremost; there is nothing wrong with theirs, nor your; only different interpretations

Peaches

01-20-2010, 09:08 AM

When there is just one instrument that is playing (for example the voice, like in 2:30-2:45) you have not so many choices: either you follow it, or you are out of music: if the voice makes a pause or a sustained note, you can't keep on doing your steps. If your step is before or after the note attack, you are out of the music IMHO.
If you don't like to be so constrained with the pauses, you must choice a different kind of music.
I must do nothing.

There are things to dance to besides the rhythm. There are things to be heard in silences, and things which could be danced. Have seen it, have heard it. (A good example of hearing things in pauses is Led Zeppelin's "Fool in the Rain." Listen to the repeated ascending notes that are the backbone of the instrumentation. I almost guarantee you'll hear "notes" where there are none.) If the vocals pause of have a sustained note, there's nothing wrong with dancing to another instrument if available.

I can't watch videos here at work, so I can't comment on the time frame you mentioned, but a 15-second sustained note? I'm skeptical. I wonder what else the found to dance. Perhaps, different pitches? Perhaps one partner is marking the long note/pause/whatever it is, while the other does something different. All good.

chanchan

01-20-2010, 09:38 AM

Your "cant" is just one interpretation: why not continue to move with a sustained note and the singer is answered immediately by an instrument with a similar sustained note;

Sure, but in this case you must do the step with that instrument not at a random time.
When you have an orchestra that is playing more than one voice, you can mark different instruments, melodies, rhytms at the same time. If all of them are present in the music.
You can also "play your own notes" but they must be in harmony with the music no musican can play random notes and calling them "interpretation".

Look at any video of frumboli and tell me if you find just a single step or movement that isn't marked by any instrument.

dchester

01-20-2010, 09:46 AM

Sure, but in this case you must do the step with that instrument not at a random time.
When you have an orchestra that is playing more than one voice, you can mark different instruments, melodies, rhytms at the same time. If all of them are present in the music.
You can also "play your own notes" but they must be in harmony with the music no musican can play random notes and calling them "interpretation".

Look at any video of frumboli and tell me if you find just a single step or movement that isn't marked by any instrument.
Who (other than you) is saying it is random? Just because a step is taken when no note is played, does not mean it is random.

chanchan

01-20-2010, 09:48 AM

If the vocals pause of have a sustained note, there's nothing wrong with dancing to another instrument if available.
I told you to look at 2:30-2:45 just because in this interval you have only the voice, or only one melodic line of the instruments, there is nothing else available, so noticing if they are following it or not is very easy.

bordertangoman

01-20-2010, 09:52 AM

Sure, but in this case you must do the step with that instrument not at a random time.
.

I will re-iterate my point; if there is no rhythm or accent in the music you do NOT need to step with the instrument;
one is choosing to flow; to create a body movement that is continuous;
the movement of the feet is not random but its about creating a flowing not a rhymicaly or phrased movement.

I dont think I can make it any clearer. flow is flow.

chanchan

01-20-2010, 09:54 AM

Who (other than you) is saying it is random? Just because a step is taken when no note is played, does not mean it is random.
IMHO if something has no apparent meaning it can be considered to be "random" until someone can give it a sense.

"Creating a flow" is a little bit vague to be an explanation: a movement can be continuous but it still having accents, their movements have accents also if they are flowing, and the music has accents also if it is legato.
The problems is that movements and music accents are totally unrelated.

Captain Jep

01-20-2010, 10:01 AM

Damn. That's harsh and out of line. Care to offer comments about what, specifically, you found lacking in their dancing?

To be honest Im probably in agreement with ChanChan and chrisjj on this one. It's just not very good dancing.

Yes, musicality doesnt mean you have to step on every beat. But IMO you do have to respect the phrasing of the tune. I dont see that in their dancing.

Dont worry though I wont take it as "representative" of US tango dancing in general lol ..

bordertangoman

01-20-2010, 10:15 AM

IMHO if something has no apparent meaning it can be considered to be "random" until someone can give it a sense.

I cant see anything random in their movement;I have therefore given it sense; I looked at the time in the clip you suggested and I disagree with your analysis; so I conclude its your Johari window, Capn Jep is right; their dancing isnt brilliant but their musicality is not the problem

dchester

01-20-2010, 10:43 AM

IMHO if something has no apparent meaning it can be considered to be "random" until someone can give it a sense.

"Creating a flow" is a little bit vague to be an explanation: a movement can be continuous but it still having accents, their movements have accents also if they are flowing, and the music has accents also if it is legato.
The problems is that movements and music accents are totally unrelated.
OK, so the passage from 2:30-2:45 was random to you. I accept that. However, it was not random to me. Was it the best demo I ever saw, no. But the bottom line is, it was just a demo of a move at the end of a class.

Peaches

01-20-2010, 11:04 AM

To be honest Im probably in agreement with ChanChan and chrisjj on this one. It's just not very good dancing.

Yes, musicality doesnt mean you have to step on every beat. But IMO you do have to respect the phrasing of the tune. I dont see that in their dancing.

Dont worry though I wont take it as "representative" of US tango dancing in general lol ..And that's fine. I take issue with dismissing the dancing/dancers as bad, without citing any specific reason (whereas you cited the fact that, to you, the dancing doesn't fit the musical phrasing). And, furthermore, a broad inflammatory statement to the effect that all dancers in the US are "that bad" is out of line IMO.

Peaches

01-20-2010, 11:05 AM

I gotta watch this passage that's being discussed...

chanchan

01-20-2010, 11:10 AM

OK, so the passage from 2:30-2:45 was random to you.

Not exactly. The only reason why I mentioned that passage is that it includes only one instrument at a time, so it is easier to analyze.
Just like the rest of the video, it has some steps in the music and some steps out of the music, I think that globally the dancers are a little too much out of the music to consider it a decent dance. After all, I also think they had no intention to follow the music, and their primary goal was showing a specific set of steps to the class.
I did my best to be objective and talking about facts, excluding any consideration about style, beautyiness, or anything else that be considered personal opinion.

But the bottom line is, it was just a demo of a move at the end of a class.This is what I am repeating since the beginning...
I am astonished by so many people defending the musicality of a demo at the end of a class...
I am pretty sure that if you ask to that dancers, they will agree that they was out of the music.

dchester

01-20-2010, 11:16 AM

Not exactly. The only reason why I mentioned that passage is that it includes just one instrument at a time, so it is easier to analyze.
Just like the rest of the video, it has some steps in the music and some steps out of the music, I think that globally the dancers are a little too much out of the music to consider it a decent dance.
I did my best to be objective and talking about facts, excluding any consideration about style, beautyiness, or anything else that be considered personal opinion.

This is what I am repeating since the beginning...
I am astonished by so many people defending the musicality of a demo at the end of a class...
I am pretty sure that if you ask the dancers, they will agree that they was out of the music. To be honest, I don't think there is anything wrong with expressing your personal opinions. We all have them, and as long as we are not being rude or making snide remarks, there's nothing wrong in expressing them. Of course, we won't all agree on various aspects, but that's the nature of art.

chanchan

01-20-2010, 11:33 AM

To be honest, I don't think there is anything wrong with expressing your personal opinions.
There is nothing wrong, but in that case there would be nothing strange in the answer "it is random to you"

Dave Bailey

01-20-2010, 02:05 PM

Right, I've had a look at the video again now.
You are right, that's why I told we shouldn't discuss about their dancing ability until we can see them dancing, or at less trying to dance.
Whilst the dancing is not particularly musical, it doesn't seem to be off the beat, and there are occasional nice musical touches - for example, at around 1:11 - 1:14.

Considering this is supposed to be a demonstration of a step, improvised to the track, and not a showcase performance, it seems OK to me.

So you think that, for example, this dancers should choice another track, or Derecho Viejo can be good for them?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9fpCj5hY_U
I was thinking more neo tango, or possibly even non-Tango music.

I'm not a big fan of soltadas, but I'm OK at them, simply because I've done so many of them in other dance styles. But I don't think they really work well most of the time in AT.

Of course, to the beat, to the melody, to anything you want.. but it must be somewhere in the music, not just in your imagination! :D
As I said, they seem to be pretty much on the beat, and show some musicality, which is sufficient in those circumstances.

Shrug.

Dave Bailey

01-20-2010, 02:08 PM

(A good example of hearing things in pauses is Led Zeppelin's "Fool in the Rain." Listen to the repeated ascending notes that are the backbone of the instrumentation. I almost guarantee you'll hear "notes" where there are none.)
Oooh, inspiration for next Sunday's playlist :)

chanchan

01-20-2010, 03:06 PM

Right, I've had a look at the video again now.

Whilst the dancing is not particularly musical, it doesn't seem to be off the beat, and there are occasional nice musical touches - for example, at around 1:11 - 1:14.

This is true, there are occasional nice musical touches, in addition to occasional steps on the beat, but I expect a dance to be something more than occasional musical touches. And music by Di Sarli can be danced in improvisation without the need of a great skill. Some other kinds of music are more challenging...

Anyway, considering this is supposed to be a demonstration of a step, I don't expect a real dance, so it is ok to me as well.

I was thinking more neo tango, or possibly even non-Tango music.

I'm not a big fan of soltadas, but I'm OK at them, simply because I've done so many of them in other dance styles. But I don't think they really work well most of the time in AT.
Did you watch the video that I linked? :p

Peaches

01-20-2010, 03:11 PM

Oooh, inspiration for next Sunday's playlist :smile:

Oooh, you're making me jealous. Dancing to LZ? I should be so lucky!

DH has always said that the better he becomes as a musician, the more he hears in silences. I find that fascinating.

chrisjj

01-20-2010, 10:44 PM

Surely only in the USA could dancers so bad be considered fit to teach.
He has clearly not been to any top tier tango festival in US.Meaning there you've found equally bad dancing from overseas teachers?? Or what???

chrisjj

01-20-2010, 10:49 PM

And, furthermore, a broad inflammatory statement to the effect that all dancers in the US are "that bad" is out of lineGood then that no-one made any such statment. In case you're in doubt, please read what I actually wrote rather than misquoting me.

Mladenac

01-21-2010, 12:51 AM

DH has always said that the better he becomes as a musician, the more he hears in silences. I find that fascinating.

I like this quote.
Who is DH?

bordertangoman

01-21-2010, 03:48 AM

Oooh, you're making me jealous. Dancing to LZ? I should be so lucky!

DH has always said that the better he becomes as a musician, the more he hears in silences. I find that fascinating.

now you have to read about Miles Davis; he was always pushing his musicians to do less and feel when to do anything ( except for one guy who would be holding down the groove against which the other musicians could work..)

Peaches

01-21-2010, 06:46 AM

I like this quote.
Who is DH?
Dear (or damned, on some days) husband.

Peaches

01-21-2010, 06:47 AM

Good then that no-one made any such statment. In case you're in doubt, please read what I actually wrote rather than misquoting me.
Do you have actually have any specific criticism of the dancing you see in the video or not?

dchester

01-21-2010, 07:50 AM

Do you have actually have any specific criticism of the dancing you see in the video or not?
I think he is confusing this forum with Tango-L. It's more common there to make inflammatory posts backed up with nothing.

bordertangoman

01-21-2010, 08:05 AM

Did you watch the video that I linked? :p

I did: i just wonder why you think this would have them better for them to dance to?

I agree with Dave Bailey that soltadas work better with slow nuevo pieces like Viz Sin Lubi by narcotango

chanchan

01-21-2010, 08:35 AM

I did: i just wonder why you think this would have them better for them to dance to?

Didn't you notice something at 1:11?

I agree with Dave Bailey that soltadas work better with slow nuevo pieces like Viz Sin Lubi by narcotango
Well, I think it can work good in quick and rhythmic pieces as well, like a milonga or candombe.
With salsa music it is even better...
Howeverer, any music can be good if you do it following the music.

bastet

01-21-2010, 10:11 AM

To be honest Im probably in agreement with ChanChan and chrisjj on this one. It's just not very good dancing.

Yes, musicality doesnt mean you have to step on every beat. But IMO you do have to respect the phrasing of the tune. I dont see that in their dancing.

Dont worry though I wont take it as "representative" of US tango dancing in general lol ..

I looked at the video a couple of times. I tend to agree with Capn Jep, Chan Chan and chrisjj on this one.

I just remind myself it was a class demo (they looked a little tired to me) and some of the movement looked a little "out of synch" at times for whatever reason (but I'm no pro so I think anyone looks better than me anyway), but I don't have any problem with the type of movement itself. I've seen videos from years and years ago with changes of embrace, usually for performance purposes, but it was still there.

Steve Pastor

01-21-2010, 11:54 AM

I think he is confusing this forum with Tango-L. It's more common there to make inflammatory posts backed up with nothing.

And I DO appreciate the fact that way more often than not you guys don't take the bait. I attribute it to the fact that many of you are mature, level headed indivduals who all contribute to maintaining a tone of civility.
I know that there are times when it's really hard to NOT respond to things, or to find the right tone or choice of words.
Thanks for helping to keep my unpaid "job" as a moderator relatively easy.

chrisjj

01-21-2010, 12:38 PM

Do you have actually have any specific criticism of the dancing you see in the videoNone that would be any use to those such as yourself who believe this is "fairly traditional" "Argentine tango".

But for anyone else...

As for people looking down at their feet...what does that have to do with the price of eggs?Good dancers don't look at their feet. They don't need to because through the embrace they feel the position of all feet at all times. The guy uses his eyes only for navigation - respecting the ronda and following the couple in front. In this video you see the embrace broken and malformed to the extent that what little is left is good only for pushing and pulling the girl. The guy has to look at her feet because otherwise he'd have no idea where there are. This seriously handicaps his ability to pay proper (if any) attention to neighbouring couples, which is why this kind of dancing is so widely associated with bad floorcraft and in particular obstruction and interference of the ronda. The very move that the titling says is the subject of the lesson is herently anti-social because it breaks the connection that is essential to improvise respectfully in the ronda with other dancers, responding in any moment to the surrounding curcumstances. This move would be fine in the spot/slot dances in which this move is originally found e.g. rock and roll or swing, and in the stage dancing of the so-called tango teachers who promote it, where the couples are not dancing together, but it is not acceptable as part of Argentine tango.

Essential to Argentine tango is respect for the music, the embrace and the ronda. The sad travesty depicted in this video fails on all three counts.

chanchan

01-21-2010, 01:54 PM

None that would be any use to those such as yourself who believe this is "fairly traditional" "Argentine tango".

Apart from the ability of the dancers (bad dancer always existed in every place) is there some specific feature that you consider new?
I advice again to watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9fpCj5hY_U

Dave Bailey

01-21-2010, 02:12 PM

Did you watch the video that I linked? :p
A little too weird even for me. And I play Stairway To Heaven as the start of my practica set :D

Dave Bailey

01-21-2010, 02:14 PM

I looked at the video a couple of times. I tend to agree with Capn Jep, Chan Chan and chrisjj on this one.

I just remind myself it was a class demo (they looked a little tired to me) and some of the movement looked a little "out of synch" at times for whatever reason (but I'm no pro so I think anyone looks better than me anyway), but I don't have any problem with the type of movement itself. I've seen videos from years and years ago with changes of embrace, usually for performance purposes, but it was still there.
Yeah... I would say that, if they're putting it on Youtube as an example, it should probably have been a bit better.

On the other hand, at least they're sharing their knowledge for free, which is a damn sight more than most Tango teachers do.

Subliminal

01-21-2010, 02:17 PM

Dear Chris,

Welcome to df! I'm kind of a beginner, and from the looks of it, it seems you are too. But don't worry, everyone here is so nice, we can all learn together!

Now let me help you out here a little bit. It seems that you accidentally took a statement Peaches wrote at the beginning of the thread, asking about why Mario was speaking of random students he knew that looked at their feet and tying it to this video under discussion, then used that quote to launch into a completely unrelated argument. Now I know you'd never do something like that on purpose! Communication is the primary purpose of this forum, so I have no doubt your motives must be pure and you have no intention of twisting the words of every post and every thread on this forum to forward your own agenda.

Now to tell you about something I heard of once. In ballroom, they have this form of dance called "smooth". It turns out that in this "smooth" dance you can do turns and assorted other madness while following line of dance and not hitting anyone!!! You don't even have to look at your feet. I've even seen people do it in Argentine Tango too. Sometimes people dance without their chests touching, and they don't look down or anything! They communicate through the connection in their arms, and by feeling where each other are in space. I know, it sounds hard, but if you try maybe someday you can do it too. :)

Dave Bailey

01-21-2010, 02:18 PM

many of you are mature, level headed indivduals who all contribute to maintaining a tone of civility.
And then there's Captain Jep and BTM... :p

Thanks for helping to keep my unpaid "job" as a moderator relatively easy.
We love you Steve.

In a manly way, that is.

Dave Bailey

01-21-2010, 02:26 PM

Good dancers don't look at their feet. They don't need to because through the embrace they feel the position of all feet at all times. The guy uses his eyes only for navigation - respecting the ronda and following the couple in front.
All true. Looking at your feet kills posture, balance, and confidence. And looks naff (technical term).

In this video you see the embrace broken and malformed to the extent that what little is left is good only for pushing and pulling the girl.
Um, it's a soltada.

The embrace is supposed to be broken.

The very move that the titling says is the subject of the lesson is herently anti-social because it breaks the connection that is essential to improvise respectfully in the ronda with other dancers, responding in any moment to the surrounding curcumstances.
I wouldn't go that far.

You'd have to be very strange to use soltadas in a traditional milonga, and you're right to say it'd be disruptive. I also have reservations about loss of connection.

But it is possible to dance and incorporate soltadas, in a nuevo tango evnironment.

This move would be fine in the spot/slot dances in which this move is originally found e.g. rock and roll or swing,
Technically, this isn't a swing move - that'd be a spin.

Soltadas are more like a step turn; like you find in chacha.

and in the stage dancing of the so-called tango teachers who promote it, where the couples are not dancing together, but it is not acceptable as part of Argentine tango.
And again we come back to "What is Argentine tango"...

Essential to Argentine tango is respect for the music, the embrace and the ronda. The sad travesty depicted in this video fails on all three counts.
That's unfair, I think.

dchester

01-21-2010, 02:41 PM

We love you Steve.

In a manly way, that is.
Yes, in a very masculine (Don't touch me) kind of way.

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Steve Pastor

01-21-2010, 03:43 PM

Hey, guys, I've danced the woman's part enough with guys here in Portland due to the shortage of women in class, or even to let them try something, or show me something, etc, in a Practica...
Yeah, I think of it as kinda like wrestling, ya know.
Nice firm hand shake.
Pat on the back.
I draw the line at the Man Hug, though. Before it happens that is.

chrisjj

01-21-2010, 06:06 PM

Technically, this isn't a swing move - that'd be a spin.

Soltadas are more like a step turn; like you find in chacha.Thanks for the correction.

chrisjj

01-21-2010, 07:40 PM

is there some specific feature that you consider new?If you mean specific move, then my answer would always be no, since I can well believe every dance move has been done before somewhere somewhen.

chanchan

01-21-2010, 09:11 PM

If you mean specific move, then my answer would always be no, since I can well believe every dance move has been done before somewhere somewhen.
I mean new in argentine tango danced in argentine, of course.
A specific move or any other feature that allows us to question if this is tango. This should be the subject of the thread.
I think that most of us agree that these are not the best dancers of the world or - if they are - this video is not very representative.
The question is if what they are trying to dance is tango or not, and why.

bordertangoman

01-22-2010, 04:58 AM

And then there's Captain Jep and BTM... :p

.

I demand satisfaction; shall we say Hampstead Heath at dawn? I favour the rapier

Captain Jep

01-22-2010, 05:24 AM

I demand satisfaction; shall we say Hampstead Heath at dawn? I favour the rapier

And I'll be your second ... (err what did we do in the first place? :p ) ....

Dave Bailey

01-22-2010, 06:17 AM

The question is if what they are trying to dance is tango or not, and why.
I've been taught soltadas in Tango classes, several times, by Argentinean teachers of Tango.

Shrug.

Dave Bailey

01-22-2010, 06:19 AM

I demand satisfaction;Don't we all. shall we say Hampstead Heath at dawn? I favour the rapier

I suspect if you went to Hampstead Heath at dawn you might get an entirely new and unexpected type of satisfaction.

bordertangoman

01-22-2010, 06:21 AM

And I'll be your second ... (err what did we do in the first place? :p ) ....

Dueling Rules
Other Dueling Codes
The Code Duello largely replaced earlier codes, including the Flos duellatorum (written in 1410) and Il duello (1550), both Italian dueling codes, as well as the German dueling rules set by the Fechtshulen dueling schools (Holland, pg. 24).
In 1777, a committee of Irishmen drew up the dueling code that would come to be used widely throughout Europe and America. The 1777 Irish code was called the Code Duello, and you can read the complete set of rules at PBS.org: Code Duello. This code was so popular that people worldwide came to see it as the "official" rules of dueling. In fact, the U.S. Navy included the text of the Code Duello in the midshipman's handbook up until dueling by naval officers was finally banned in 1862 (Holland, pg. 142).

Highlights of the rules include the steps of an apology, might call off the duel; proper dueling etiquette in terms of dignified behavior; the role of seconds; and what constitutes the end of a duel.

Apologies
An apology on the part of the challenged could avert a bloody duel if delivered properly. Keep in mind that most duels were carried out when one man offended another's honor. As such, the proper apology would logically help solve the problem, even once the duel had already begun. The Code Duello dictates a complex method of deciding who should apologize first:

Rule 1. The first offense requires the first apology, though the retort may have been more offensive than the insult. Example: A tells B he is impertinent, etc. B retorts that he lies; yet A must make the first apology because he gave the first offense, and then (after one fire) B may explain away the retort by a subsequent apology.
The rules also dictate when an apology can be accepted, thus preventing the duel, and when no verbal apology will be sufficient:

Rule 5: As a blow is strictly prohibited under any circumstances among gentlemen, no verbal apology can be received for such an insult. The alternatives, therefore -- the offender handing a cane to the injured party, to be used on his own back, at the same time begging pardon; firing on until one or both are disabled; or exchanging three shots, and then asking pardon without proffer of the cane ...
Dueling Etiquette

A duel is not a brawl. It is a controlled battle between gentlemen of honor. As such, a certain level of dignity was expected of all participants. Rule 13 is one that describes dignified dueling behavior. It is also one that was frequently broken, since many duelists did not really want to die, kill or maim. They only wanted to defend their honor. Rule 13 states:

No dumb shooting or firing in the air is admissible in any case. The challenger ought not to have challenged without receiving offense; and the challenged ought, if he gave offense, to have made an apology before he came on the ground; therefore, children's play must be dishonorable on one side or the other, and is accordingly prohibited.
Since the holding of the duel itself would usually be enough to satisfy honor, duelists might use dummy bullets, or declare ahead of time that they would fire their weapon into the air or at a non-vital area of their opponent's body. The Code Duello frowned on this.
The Code also encourages duelists to sleep on their wounded pride and then duel with a calm demeanor the next day: Rule 15 states:

Challenges are never to be delivered at night, unless the party to be challenged intend leaving the place of offense before morning; for it is desirable to avoid all hot-headed proceedings.
Seconds
The role of the seconds is spelled out in several rules. (Note Rule 18's reference to smooth-bored guns as opposed to rifled weapons.)

Rule 18. The seconds load in presence of each other, unless they give their mutual honors they have charged smooth and single, which should be held sufficient.

Rule 21. Seconds are bound to attempt a reconciliation before the meeting takes place, or after sufficient firing or hits, as specified.
The Code Duello acknowledges that the seconds might get involved in the fight themselves, as mentioned in the previous section. The Code is highly specific as to how this involvement might occur:

Rule 25. Where seconds disagree, and resolve to exchange shots themselves, it must be at the same time and at right angles with their principals.
When a Duel is Over
Dueling "to the death" is not considered desirable in the Code Duello, although this may have been the ultimate end to many duels. Remember: Dueling is about recovering honor, not about killing. Rule 5 states:

... If swords are used, the parties engage until one is well blooded, disabled, or disarmed; or until, after receiving a wound, and blood being drawn, the aggressor begs pardon.

Rule 22 addresses the issue as well:
Any wound sufficient to agitate the nerves and necessarily make the hand shake, must end the business for that day.
Perhaps one of the most important rules of dueling does not involve the mechanics of the duel itself, but rather who is allowed to duel. In medieval Europe, dueling was the sport of noble-born men. Although commoners did fight and certainly did face each other in contests that could be called duels, an actual, honor-bound duel had to be conducted between two men of noble rank. One reason for this was economic -- swords are expensive weapons, and not every peasant had one. But it was also a means of distinguishing the upper and lower classes. Many countries had laws forbidding commoners to fight amongst themselves, while dukes, princes and even kings were expected to duel each other.

chrisjj

01-22-2010, 06:38 AM

I mean new in argentine tango danced in argentine, of course.I don't believe anyone can say whether a move is new in Argentine tango since he hasn't seen all that has come before. Those who think they know enough to say e.g. like Chicho "the sacada did not exist seven years ago" are always those of relative short experience dancing tango, and are telling us how little not how much they know.

A specific move or any other feature that allows us to question if this is tango.I belive it is makes no sense to characterise this individualised and improvised dance in terms of moves. The only place I see that happing is in the world of step-peddling dance classes, where it is necessary for marketing - not for dancing. It is my experience that the majority who call themselves dancers of Argentine tango characterise the dance in terms of the music, embrace and ronda. Not moves. A move that fits within that can be part of Argentine tango. A move that does not can not.

The question is if what they are trying to dance is tango or not, and why.Only they can say what that are trying to do.

chanchan

01-22-2010, 07:32 AM

It is my experience that the majority who call themselves dancers of Argentine tango characterise the dance in terms of the music, embrace and ronda. Not moves. A move that fits within that can be part of Argentine tango. A move that does not can not.

Good, so the feature you are talking about are: music, embrace, and ronda.
In this case, music is Verdermar: a beautiful, traditional tango. No need to argue about it.
We cannot say anything about ronda because there is no other couple with them.
So, let's see the embrace: is there something revolutionary about their embrace?

chrisjj

01-22-2010, 08:40 AM

Good, so the feature you are talking about are: music, embrace, and ronda.No, they are not "features". E.g. one does not call something 'dancing tango' just because dancing and tango are happening in the same room at the same time.

If this couple was actually dancing Verdermar, instead of just dancing steps while Verdermar played, things would be very different. Including probably there would be no soltadas, and hence no soltada class, and hence no such discussion here! :)

We cannot say anything about ronda because there is no other couple with them.We can say A LOT about ronda from what we see of that kind of dancing in the milongas. It is the kind that in a tight ronda will get the perpetrators pushed off the floor. In fact I think we can say that is probably one of the reasons this couple is offering classes in the first place. To see what I mean, have a look at the history of original peddlars of these steps, Fabian, Chicho and others, how they were rejected by the tango dancing scene in BsAs.

So, let's see the embrace: is there something revolutionary about their embrace?Apart from the fact that people can now be persuaded to pay to be taught something so bad? No, nothing that I can see.

bordertangoman

01-22-2010, 10:18 AM

Apart from the fact that people can now be persuaded to pay to be taught something so bad? No, nothing that I can see.

Perhaps you are unaware of the Jive scene which probably has fifty dancers for every tango dancer and the aim is to get people on the dance floor enjoying themselves; quality of dancing is a by-product; but people do become good at it.......

and its better than some people who teach on the dance floor at milongas..

chrisjj

01-22-2010, 11:20 AM

Perhaps you are unaware of the Jive scene which probably has fifty dancers for every tango dancer and the aim is to get people on the dance floor enjoying themselves;Excellent. How nice it would be if more tango classes had the same objective... and outcome.

dchester

01-22-2010, 11:22 AM

Good, so the feature you are talking about are: music, embrace, and ronda.
In this case, music is Verdermar: a beautiful, traditional tango. No need to argue about it.
We cannot say anything about ronda because there is no other couple with them.
So, let's see the embrace: is there something revolutionary about their embrace?No, they are not "features". E.g. one does not call something 'dancing tango' just because dancing and tango are happening in the same room at the same time.

If this couple was actually dancing Verdermar, instead of just dancing steps while Verdermar played, things would be very different. Including probably there would be no soltadas, and hence no soltada class, and hence no such discussion here! :)
Does the smiley indicate that your post is a joke, or do you really believe that they are not dancing to Verdermar?

http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/blink.gif

Peaches

01-22-2010, 11:30 AM

chrisjj

01-22-2010, 11:53 AM

It turns out that in this "smooth" dance you can do turns and assorted other madness while following line of dance and not hitting anyone!!! You don't even have to look at your feet. I've even seen people do it in Argentine Tango too.Do be sure to tell the instructors in this video. Even better, have them pay you to teach it to them! :)

chrisjj

01-22-2010, 11:57 AM

Could someone please remind me what in bloody hell this thread was about? I hope we're not going off into another "what is AT" discussion...Peaches, here's a hint from the thread's initial post:

The question; is it "Argentine" Tango

If you can't stand to see this question discussed, you should probably unplug your computer from the internet :)

chrisjj

01-22-2010, 12:09 PM

do you really believe that they are not dancing to Verdermar?I don't think there's any need to add to the observations already made by others here on how little relation this dancing has to the music that happens to be playing at the same time.

But I'll say this again in case you missed it:

One does not call something 'dancing tango' just because dancing and tango are happening in the same room at the same time.

Having said which, at least they had the sense not to choose up-beat Canaro or D'Arienzo. Even their most gullible pupils might then have started to notice something was up.

chanchan

01-22-2010, 12:10 PM

No, they are not "features". E.g. one does not call something 'dancing tango' just because dancing and tango are happening in the same room at the same time.

If this couple was actually dancing Verdermar, instead of just dancing steps while Verdermar played, things would be very different. Including probably there would be no soltadas, and hence no soltada class, and hence no such discussion here! :)

We can't know what they would include if they were actually dancing.
Anyway the dancers in the video that I signaled were dancing, and they included soltada in Derecho Viejo. So we could discuss about that video...

We can say A LOT about ronda from what we see of that kind of dancing in the milongas. It is the kind that in a tight ronda will get the perpetrators pushed off the floor.
There are also a lot of other things that should be avoided in a tight ronda, including ganchos, boleos, but also quick or large giros, backward steps and anything that will inevitabily cause accidents.
Are there only tight rondas in tango?

To see what I mean, have a look at the history of original peddlars of these steps, Fabian, Chicho and others, how they were rejected by the tango dancing scene in BsAs.
Explain me better: they were rejected because they peddled some steps that existed before!? Is it some kind of state secret that they revealed?

dchester

01-22-2010, 12:18 PM

Could someone please remind me what in bloody hell this thread was about? And what are we arguing about? I hope we're not going off into another "what is AT" discussion...isn't there already a thread for that?
I'll take a shot at it. Here are some (but not all) of the highlights:

As I recall, Mario asked about the video we've tried to discuss, and had questions like whether it was the future of tango.

From there, the thread morphed into discussions about things like: if you didn't like a demo at the end of a class, does it mean that the teachers are bad dancers; and also whether the USA is really the only country in the world that has bad dancers who teach.

Of course, as is with all threads as of late, we eventually got into a bit of a semantics discussion. This time, it was about what dancing to the music means, and whether they were simply dancing steps while the music was playing.

And finally we arrived at, whether it is possible to dance to Verdermar using soltadas and still call it Argentine Tango.

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

chrisjj

01-22-2010, 12:48 PM

We can't know what they would include if they were actually dancing.If you're saying they are not actually dancing, then you don't need me to explain that they are not dancing Argentine tango.

Anyway the dancers in the video that I signaled were dancing, and they included soltada in Derecho Viejo.That is an exhibition performance done as part of a feature film 50 years ago. Hardly comparable to a instructional demonstration done as part of a dance class today.

Are there only tight rondas in tango?Well obviously not, since the dancers don't all jump into the floor simultaneously.

xplain me better: they were rejected because they peddled some steps that existed before!?Rather I think they turned to step-peddling because of their rejection. But you decide:

When we started, nobody wanted us, we were insulted because of the way we danced because we did something new with tango. A similar thing happened to Piazzolla, he said, the only crime I committed was to try to change something in tango. That was enough to make him a hate figure… and today they adore him. A similar thing happened to us. We had a different approach to tango and got shouted at.
...
We started because we wanted to understand and learn the tango. You can do this like in the old days by practicing for 40 years. Alternatively you can understand the structure of the moves and use your head to direct your feet. We did not change the tango for the sake of change but because we could not afford to learn it for 40 years. We were convinced that dance students had to understand the structure of the dance, because they lacked the opportunity to practice. In the US tango dancers could probably go to about one milonga a month. Imagine these Americans, practising tango for only 5 hours a month, they would never gonna learn to dance tango. If you take this view as a teacher you are a liar if you advertise and sell your classes. You would have to warn them that it would take about 120 years to learn tango and more realistically suggest trying golf. We searched for a solution of this problem by speeding up the learning process. This was only possible by dissecting the dance and understanding its structure.

http://www.tango-on-tyne.co.uk/Salas.htm

Dave Bailey

01-22-2010, 01:42 PM

Excellent. How nice it would be if more tango classes had the same objective... and outcome.
:shock:

I'm guessing you've not been to a standard Ceroc night...

Dave Bailey

01-22-2010, 01:52 PM

Could someone please remind me what in bloody hell this thread was about?

Duelling?

I hope we're not going off into another "what is AT" discussion...isn't there already a thread for that?
Most of them, I think.

chrisjj

01-22-2010, 01:55 PM

Dave Bailey

01-22-2010, 01:55 PM

Explain me better: they were rejected because they peddled some steps that existed before!? Is it some kind of state secret that they revealed?
You know, I quite like the idea of being rejected by the Tango community, it's kind of cool in a strange way.

Dave Bailey

01-22-2010, 01:58 PM

>> How nice it would be if more tango classes had the same
>> objective... and outcome.

> I'm guessing you've not been to a standard Ceroc night...

I have, David.

But I didn't see any tango classes there! :)
We keep them secret.

What the jive scene does have, in spades, is a methodology to get people dancing quickly, in a friendly and welcoming environment, combined with a packaged and standardised teaching system. So there are probably 100K regular Modern Jivers in the UK.

But what the jive scene does not have is any mechanism for teaching people beyond move-monster level. An "advanced" class is simply one with more complex move sequences.

chanchan

01-22-2010, 03:09 PM

If you're saying they are not actually dancing, then you don't need me to explain that they are not dancing Argentine tango.

We are not talking about what they are dancing, but what they are supposed to teach

That is an exhibition performance done as part of a feature film 50 years ago. Hardly comparable to a instructional demonstration done as part of a dance class today.
Yes, hardly comparable, but anyway good to show that soltada is a quite an old move and that it fits well with Arolas' music: I hope nobody will deny that they have musicality...

Well obviously not, since the dancers don't all jump into the floor simultaneously.
Right, and they don't go away simultanously. Finding a place or a time when the ronda is not so crowd and you can have all the space that you want is usually not so difficult.

Rather I think they turned to step-peddling because of their rejection. But you decide:

When we started, nobody wanted us, we were insulted because of the way we danced because we did something new with tango. A similar thing happened to Piazzolla, he said, the only crime I committed was to try to change something in tango. That was enough to make him a hate figure… and today they adore him. A similar thing happened to us. We had a different approach to tango and got shouted at.
Well, we could discuss now about what is the "something new" they did with tango. Since it is not the sacada, not the soltada, not the out of axis, not the open embrace...
I suppose it's the approach:

We closely observed the dancers and realised that the dance must rely on a basic structure. Dancers from different backgrounds could meet at a milonga and dance together, meaning that basic body language or codes is common to all the dancers. These codes were not specific steps such as the salida, for example but a body language that was not taught in classes but worked with unknown partners. We decided to decipher the codes of this body language.

So their approach (we cannot assume that this is the same approach used by the teachers in the video) is based on body language instead of specific steps or sequences.
Maybe it is not the traditional method to teach, but is it something different from argentine tango?

Steve Pastor

01-22-2010, 04:14 PM

Maybe it is not the traditional method to teach, but is it something different from argentine tango?
We are told that the "traditional" way to learn dance was for it to be handed down from older men to younger men, older women to younger women. Exactly how this was done doesn't seem to be "on the record".
There ARE books about how to dance, and although I haven't seen ones in Spanish, (and couldn't read them if I had) I'd venture to say it would be similar to what is in books written in English.
Although I by no means equate myself with the founders of nuevo, I AM interested in learning about the actual physical forces that go into the making of two people moving together as we do.
Attempts to discusss this most often result in... nothing productive from my viewpoint. Attempting to demystify something that people hold in a great and mysterious regard is not well accepted or appreciated.
Oh, and my answer is, no, it isn't something other than Argentine Tango.

Steve Pastor

01-22-2010, 04:18 PM

And, on Piazzolla, there's a guy who did something new with tango. Musicolgists and anyone who wants to put in the time (OK maybe a LOT of time) can identify the new, nontraditional elements he added. The rest of us can pretty easily hear the difference.

dchester

01-22-2010, 04:24 PM

Peaches

01-22-2010, 04:26 PM

IMO, (simply stated) he added jazz (and sometimes classical) elements to his tango music.
Yup yup.

chrisjj

01-22-2010, 06:38 PM

We are not talking about what they are dancing, but what they are supposed to teachActually I was talking about what they are dancing.

Well, we could discuss now about what is the "something new" they did with tango. I suppose it's the approach ... based on body language instead of specific steps or sequences.One might think so from the claims Gustavo and Fabian have made, but I go from what I experienced in their workshops.... and that was exactly the same kind of sequence and step-based instruction as from the other Argentine step-peddlars - except with a bit more lecturing. I'd like to show you a video... but videoing of the lessons was always prohibited.

The something new that did apparently come from Gustavo and Fabian is the idea that just two years of dance experience (which might just get one rated past beginner in the BsAs tango scene) qualified them as tango teachers. Add to that their claim they invented the profession of tango teacher ... and you can well imagine why they were so unpopular in BsAs. And that was before everyone saw the appaling results of their "teaching"....

chrisjj

01-22-2010, 06:55 PM

We keep them secret.And now you'll have to shoot me? :)

What the jive scene does have, in spades, is a methodology to get people dancing quickly, in a friendly and welcoming environment, combined with a packaged and standardised teaching system.Many instructors do the same in Argentine tango. Sadly in my experience e.g. of ten years of the teaching system of the dance school in my home city Cambridge (UK), and other places, the results are nothing like what we know as Argentine tango. But please do decide for yourself. See this, from nearby St Albans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mbibSdVdeQ .

chrisjj

01-22-2010, 07:01 PM

We are told that the "traditional" way to learn dance was for it to be handed down from older men to younger men, older women to younger women. Exactly how this was done doesn't seem to be "on the record".

It is very much on the record. e.g. see

The Traditional Way to Learn to Dance Tango
by Christine Denniston
http://www.history-of-tango.com/learn-to-dance.html

wonderwoman

01-22-2010, 07:11 PM

Omg YES. I love any thread that starts out with phrases like "enlighten me please" and "I don't mean to have an attitude but".

Steve Pastor

01-22-2010, 08:09 PM

I'm taking about specific rather than generalities.
For instance, were the women taught to follow a visual lead rather than to feel the push/pull/pressure/tension on their bodies?
Were the boys taught to use their right hands/arms to do the majority of guiding the woman as it is stated in so many dance texts?
How was the frame/embrace taught? Was it rigid, soft, etc.
Were people really taught to be improvisational from the beginning, as we are led to believe, or were they taught patterns? (Actually, many texts state that patterns are just a way to learn to dance and become less important as skill is developed. And those are regular dance books.)

Steve Pastor

01-22-2010, 08:24 PM

And that was before everyone saw the appaling results of their "teaching"....

Well, for guys who had "just two years of dance experience" they put on one heck of an impressive show in "The Tango Lesson".

I'm very sorry that you are unhappy with the way things are in your location. Although I have my own complaints about the scene here in Portland, they must be minor because I keep going back to dance AT in spite of any dissatisfaction.

It is of course NOT Buenos Aires, but some of the instructors here have tried very hard to bring a bit of Buenos Aired here. Every type of social dance and music reflects the character of the people who adopt it, more or less.
I could give you examples from the swing world, but I'm out of here for now, and this is the AT section, after all!

Captain Jep

01-23-2010, 02:57 AM

I'm very sorry that you are unhappy with the way things are in your location. Although I have my own complaints about the scene here in Portland, they must be minor because I keep going back to dance AT in spite of any dissatisfaction.

I dont know what chrisjj is talking about! Cambridge (the one in England) has a vibrant AT scene and some first-rate dancers. Admittedly I havent done years of classes there, but I can judge on the results.

Believe me, there are a lot worse dance teachers you can learn off.

(I did do a beginners course at the Unitarian Church in Cambridge. For which I am still very grateful.The other beginners course I was doing at the time - in Suffolk - was based around learning patterns. The Cambridge one definitely wasnt :cool: )

AndaBien

01-23-2010, 10:16 AM

Many instructors do the same in Argentine tango. Sadly in my experience e.g. of ten years of the teaching system of the dance school in my home city Cambridge (UK), and other places, the results are nothing like what we know as Argentine tango. But please do decide for yourself. See this, from nearby St Albans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mbibSdVdeQ .

I deplore this way of teaching tango, or any dance, but in ballroom venues this is how any dance is taught, and lots of people feel comfortable with it. I thought most AT communities went beyond this method 15 years ago.

However, as the previous post indicates, it's not the only thing available in your vicinity.

Ampster

01-23-2010, 02:56 PM

Many instructors do the same in Argentine tango. Sadly in my experience e.g. of ten years of the teaching system of the dance school in my home city Cambridge (UK), and other places, the results are nothing like what we know as Argentine tango. But please do decide for yourself. See this, from nearby St Albans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mbibSdVdeQ .

"Argentine Tango Bronze Medal Routine???!!!" :confused: NO! This is a ballroom studio teaching AT! This was how I started learning ballroom. It succeeded at improving my "memorizing steps" skills, and "paying the studio" skills. This method FAILED to teach me how to dance dynamically on a real social floor. Ultimately, it led me to drop ballroom altogether.

I'm happy that AT is NOT taught this way (at least not where I'm from). I'm glad to have learned AT in a non-structured, dynamic & improvisational method.

barrefly

01-23-2010, 06:00 PM

"Argentine Tango Bronze Medal Routine???!!!" :confused: NO! This is a ballroom studio teaching AT! This was how I started learning ballroom. It succeeded at improving my "memorizing steps" skills, and "paying the studio" skills. This method FAILED to teach me how to dance dynamically on a real social floor. Ultimately, it led me to drop ballroom altogether.

I'm happy that AT is NOT taught this way (at least not where I'm from). I'm glad to have learned AT in a non-structured, dynamic & improvisational method.
That's the thing about B/L, because there are so many dances involved, it is conducive to a good business strategy. Your gonna pay an arm and a leg whether you get good instruction or bad.

Dave Bailey

01-24-2010, 08:31 AM

"Argentine Tango Bronze Medal Routine???!!!" :confused: NO! This is a ballroom studio teaching AT! This was how I started learning ballroom. It succeeded at improving my "memorizing steps" skills, and "paying the studio" skills. This method FAILED to teach me how to dance dynamically on a real social floor. Ultimately, it led me to drop ballroom altogether.

I'm happy that AT is NOT taught this way (at least not where I'm from). I'm glad to have learned AT in a non-structured, dynamic & improvisational method.
The St. Albans classes ... mmm.... how to phrase this... they have a different approach to the one I'd take, let's put it that way. If only because there's no way I'd remember that long a routine... :D

But I don't think the St. Albans classes are representative of the way AT is taught in SE England. They're very sequence-based.

chrisjj

01-26-2010, 04:41 AM

For instance, were the women taught to follow a visual lead rather than to feel the push/pull/pressure/tension on their bodies?Women in BsAs weren't taught to follow, period. Women don't need to be taught because the woman's role is natural. Women danced only with guys who could dance.

Teaching of women exists today due to the need for partners for guys who cannot dance, mainly those in beginners classes where the teacher/instructor talks and shows rather than dances with the students, and tries to teach guys to lead without having learned to follow. Such classes didn't exist in BsAs before the 1980s commercialisation of tango dance education by the likes of Gustavo Naviera.

How was the frame/embrace taught?I've seen no evidence that it was taught. Like everything else, it was learned direct - by dancing with someone who could dance.

chrisjj

01-26-2010, 04:51 AM

I dont know what chrisjj is talking about! Cambridge (the one in England) has a vibrant AT scene and some first-rate dancers.

What I am talking about Captain Jep is, as I said: "the dance school in my home city Cambridge (UK)" not the entire Cambridge tango scene. Cambridge has many other active teachers (none of which learned at the dance school) and milongas.

chrisjj

01-26-2010, 04:55 AM

Well, for guys who had "just two years of dance experience" they put on one heck of an impressive show in "The Tango Lesson".Steve, your dates are out by about 15 years.

spectator

01-26-2010, 05:50 AM

Chris, you are on thin ice. I'm sure a lot of the Brits can guess who you are implicitly getting at, and since they afaik are not reading and therefore have no chance to reply I think you should give it a rest.

I would also like to point out, that I have been to lessons over the years where the teacher has made it explicitly clear that they are trying to impart a principle, e.g. things you can do with a change of direction, so they demonstrate a little routine or step to show the basic mechanics and then try to encourage people to re interpret it and find the different variations they can apply the concept in. The out come however is that most of the attendees become entirely lost in the detail and fixate on the demonstrated step as the purpose of the class. The teacher has become an instructor.

The problem is the mind set of a lot of people attending "lessons", they go to collect steps and nothing the person providing the new material can do can change that.

Perhaps that's a big part of the issue that you are claiming has arisen in Cambridge? There are people there who have been going to classes for 8 years and only focusing on the specific step in the class, but that is not the fault of the organisers. And yes they do dance like robots, but what can you do? they are ENJOYING themselves.

Repeated attacks make the people involved in organising it defensive and the whole atmosphere unpleasant and unamenable to change or disscussion. Also the St Albans thing has nothing to do with tango in cambridge and I don't really get why you put them together like that except to imply that that is what the classes look like in Cambridge and by extension dancers in the milongas who have come from the classes. You would be wrong.

bordertangoman

01-26-2010, 06:31 AM

What I am talking about Captain Jep is, as I said: "the dance school in my home city Cambridge (UK)" not the entire Cambridge tango scene. Cambridge has many other active teachers (none of which learned at the dance school) and milongas.

It seems that what you are advocating is an "apprenticeship" approach that follows the how leaders in BsAs learnt from other leaders. That is one way to skin a cat. What and how the Cambridge tango teachers teach is constantly evolving thanks to the influence of teachers from other parts of the world (BsAs and Nijmegen as examples). Inevitably some of what you suggest does happen because those learning are dancing with each other and there will be an organic learning process. While I agree that learning to follow is an advantage for a leader. I dont think its a prerequisite; they have enough to learn already.

Dave Bailey

01-26-2010, 06:37 AM

Women in BsAs weren't taught to follow, period. Women don't need to be taught because the woman's role is natural.
Walking backwards in high heels is "natural"?

:confused:

Women danced only with guys who could dance.
That bias always happens, everywhere and in every dance scene.

Teaching of women exists today due to the need for partners for guys who cannot dance
Errr.... that's everyone at the start, surely?

I've seen no evidence that it was taught. Like everything else, it was learned direct - by dancing with someone who could dance.
I'm getting a weird sense of deja vu here, but I'm going to stick with my crazy belief that structured learning is more efficient than by-your-bootstraps experience in most ways.

Dave Bailey

01-26-2010, 06:41 AM

The problem is the mind set of a lot of people attending "lessons", they go to collect steps and nothing the person providing the new material can do can change that.
I managed to do a 2-hour class on Sunday, with no steps at all. :D

(Well, there was a pivot in the last ten mins. That's all. A pivot.)

Also the St Albans thing has nothing to do with tango in cambridge and I don't really get why you put them together like that except to imply that that is what the classes look like in Cambridge and by extension dancers in the milongas who have come from the classes. You would be wrong.
I've never been to Cambridge - it's Oop North - but I've heard good things about the Cambridge scene, and the website looks informative and useful.

Peaches

01-26-2010, 06:54 AM

Women in BsAs weren't taught to follow, period. Women don't need to be taught because the woman's role is natural. Women danced only with guys who could dance. Perhaps there's something special in the water in BsAs, then, that makes the women there exceptional. Because...bullsh!t. Oh, sure, it's natural...in the same sense that walking is natural for men as well, and AT is just a dance based on natural walking, so...really...nobody needs teaching! (Sarcasm, in case that wasn't obvious.) But, let's see...walking backwards and in heels...not so natural. Doing it while keeping your weight forward...not so natural. Learning to keep a forward connection and pressure into your partner...not so natural. Being grounded, dancing into the floor, keeping your feet all nice and connected (never mind pretty), knowing what the lead is asking for by his body movements...none of them natural.

Teaching of women exists today due to the need for partners for guys who cannot danceOh, hell. I wish someone had told me that before I shelled out a bunch of money on private lessons...to be taught how to dance. Little did I know I was doing it for all the men out there. And what's this "cannot" dance nonsense? Anyone who hasn't learned a dance "cannot" dance it. That's why you have to learn. Or be taught. Or have knowledge imparted. Or whatever we want to call it.

I've seen no evidence that it was taught. Like everything else, it was learned direct - by dancing with someone who could dance.Let's see...direct learning...dancing with someone who could dance...that sounds an awful lot like my private lessons. Dancing with someone who could dance, providing feedback as to what went wrong and what needs to be improved, explaining the concepts...sounds an awful lot like teaching to me. Or is this another one of those semantic arguments?

Dave Bailey

01-26-2010, 07:10 AM

Perhaps there's something special in the water in BsAs, then, that makes the women there exceptional. Because...
Stop quoting my sig :p

chrisjj

01-26-2010, 08:39 AM

....

chrisjj

01-26-2010, 08:53 AM

Chris, you are on thin ice. I'm sure a lot of the Brits can guess who you are implicitly getting atNo-one needs to guess.

The comment you replied to was about the guys with "just two years of dance experience". For avoidance of doubt, I was referring to Gustavo Naviera and Fabian Salas.

You then mention Cambridge. Again for avoidance of doubt, I was referring to "the dance school in my home city Cambridge (UK)".

since they afaik are not reading and therefore have no chance to replyActually we cannot tell who is reading... or even who is writing in the case of people like yourself who are hiding behind pseudonyms. I have a feeling the motivation behind your comments would be a lot clearer if we actually knew who you were.

dchester

01-26-2010, 09:01 AM

Oh, hell. I wish someone had told me that before I shelled out a bunch of money on private lessons...to be taught how to dance. Little did I know I was doing it for all the men out there.
Well let me be the first to thank you, and all the other ladies out there, who took lessons to help me out. However, I'm still not all that good yet, so maybe some of you need to put in a little extra effort.

Thanks in advance.

http://www.dance-forums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Captain Jep

01-26-2010, 09:28 AM

What I am talking about Captain Jep is, as I said: "the dance school in my home city Cambridge (UK)" not the entire Cambridge tango scene. Cambridge has many other active teachers (none of which learned at the dance school) and milongas.

Well to me you are still being cryptic. I'm afraid I for one have no idea which school (or who) you're referring to. As spectator says, whoever it is, you should give it a rest.

If I was a dancer in Cambridge I would take advantage of whatever was on offer. Whatever the source. We all invent and re-invent our dancing anyway.

chanchan

01-26-2010, 09:38 AM

Errr.... that's everyone at the start, surely?

Yes, but in the first case, the man knows that he can't dance, he knows what the follower has to perceive in order to do some move, because he did it as a follower, and he goes to practica until he can lead it.
In the second case, the man learns "his part", and expects the woman to do "her part", often he not even know what steps the woman has to do.
Nevertheless, he thinks he can dance and, if the woman won't do "her part", it is beacuse she can't dance.

chrisjj

01-26-2010, 10:45 AM

Peaches, not long ago about half the city of Buenos Aries danced tango. They learned not in lessons from teachers but by dancing with each other. The only thing that's really different today is that many who want to learn are in cities having very few people dancing tango. That and only that is what restricts the newcomer's choice of dancers from which to learn, to those who'll do it only for money. When you get a good private lesson, the actual method of learning is the same - dancing. To know this helps understand why some girls get to learn without paying. And why some others who do pay but recognise that that they are paying to learn, not "paying to be taught" as you put it, have a much wider choice and a much easier time.

But, let's see...walking backwards and in heels...not so natural.Agreed. I doubt any Golden Age dancer wore heels as high as those on many of the girls struggling to learn in them nowadays.

knowing what the lead is asking for by his body movements...none of them natural.Agreed again. Good leading doesn't work through "asking by body movements". That kind of unnatural signalling is an invention of the recent class method designed to get girls to follow guys who cannot dance.

bordertangoman

01-26-2010, 11:01 AM

more ways to skin a cat; having danced with a couple of Argentine ( and a Brazilian who liked to pass himself off as an Argentine) blokes however briefly, my experience is that they really shovel the follower about. In my experience that isnt necessary unless you want to give some energy for a colgada, others have been more subtle- pretty much creating a space for the follower to move into; very much an invitation.

chrisjj

01-26-2010, 11:02 AM

Yes, but in the first case, the man knows that he can't dance, he knows what the follower has to perceive in order to do some move, because he did it as a follower, and he goes to practica until he can lead it.Absolutely! Just as we all learn to speak by listening to speech. The new tango dance teaching method is like getting guys to speak a language they have never heard, with teacher showing and telling them what shapes to make with their lips.

Of guys learning to follow, Borderman here says "I dont think its a prerequisite; they have enough to learn already." but actually following is entirely a subset of what all good leaders are doing all the time anyway. Learning to follow first makes learning to lead much easier, not least because the guy can then learn in the language of the dance itself - instead of just getting the show and tell about each new move, he can actually feel what it is and how it works.

Provided of course the teacher can lead it... and here also is the best way it discover that important fact too.

Non-following guy beginners, you may very reasonably have got the idea that learning to follow is hard... if you are going by the experience of your unfortunate girl partners in class. Yes, following someone who cannot lead is hard. No, following someone who can lead is not hard. Not at all.

bordertangoman

01-26-2010, 11:40 AM

Absolutely!

Of guys learning to follow, Borderman here says "I dont think its a prerequisite; they have enough to learn already." but actually following is entirely a subset of what all good leaders are doing all the time anyway. Learning to follow first makes learning to lead much easier, not least because the guy can then learn in the language of the dance itself - instead of just getting the show and tell about each new move, he can actually feel what it is and how it works.

.

YOU may be right; but how long would that add to a leader achieving a competent level to go on the dance floor and how many leaders would have that patience if one advocated that as a teaching method. when I taught I did my best to ensure that all my students felt what it was like to be led and to follow directly from me. I am a strong advocate that some or perhaps most people who can translate a "feeling" (something physical) into their movement will speed up their learning than merely being told and shown.

I also advocate differnt abilities learning together so you get a trickle down or feudal effect.

chrisjj

01-26-2010, 12:22 PM

YOU may be right; but how long would that add to a leader achieving a competent level to go on the dance floorEr, zero. My point was that it would subtract.

when I taught I did my best to ensure that all my students felt what it was like to be led and to follow directly from me. I am a strong advocate that some or perhaps most people who can translate a "feeling" (something physical) into their movement will speed up their learning than merely being told and shown.Sounds like you are already a convert, then :). Excellent!

I also advocate differnt abilities learning together so you get a trickle down or feudal effect.Again that's good to hear.

Dave Bailey

01-26-2010, 01:38 PM

Well to me you are still being cryptic
Me too, to be honest.

I can't even keep track of my own classes, let alone anyone else's.

(I only found out today that I'd been missing two whole students for two weeks.... :oops: )

Dave Bailey

01-26-2010, 01:40 PM

Agreed. I doubt any Golden Age dancer wore heels as high as those on many of the girls struggling to learn in them nowadays.
OK, let's say they wore normal shoes. They're still walking backwards. That's not natural, surely?

dchester

01-26-2010, 01:41 PM

OK, let's say they wore normal shoes. They're still walking backwards. That's not natural, surely?
It's about as natural as a guy not using his hands when leading.

;)

Dave Bailey

01-26-2010, 01:42 PM

more ways to skin a cat; having danced with a couple of Argentine ( and a Brazilian who liked to pass himself off as an Argentine) blokes however briefly, my experience is that they really shovel the follower about.
That would make some sense - from what I've heard (and yes, as always I could be talking rubbish), the followers in BsAs generally require a lot of energy; they make you work to do the lead.

The phrase used was "like pushing a fridge", I believe.

Peaches

01-26-2010, 01:53 PM

(I only found out today that I'd been missing two whole students for two weeks.... :oops: )LOL. As opposed to two half students? ;)

barrefly

01-26-2010, 01:53 PM

Women in BsAs weren't taught to follow, period. Women don't need to be taught because the woman's role is natural. Women danced only with guys who could dance.

Say what? Women in BsAs were not only taught, but were taught since a very early age. (Similar to the Flamenco dancers in Spain). It is a part of their culture...of their lives.

Dave Bailey

01-26-2010, 01:55 PM

LOL. As opposed to two half students? ;)
It was a couple. They've probably absconded off to Gretna Green.

Peaches

01-26-2010, 01:56 PM

It was a couple. They've probably absconded off to Gretna Green.
Eh?

Oh...wikipedia... Oh. OH!!!

bordertangoman

01-26-2010, 03:20 PM

That would make some sense - from what I've heard (and yes, as always I could be talking rubbish), the followers in BsAs generally require a lot of energy; they make you work to do the lead.

The phrase used was "like pushing a * fridge", I believe.

*I think you have omitted the expletive.

Dave Bailey

01-26-2010, 03:32 PM

*I think you have omitted the expletive.
That's coz I is cultyoured.

bafonso

01-26-2010, 06:05 PM

Women in BsAs weren't taught to follow, period. Women don't need to be taught because the woman's role is natural. Women danced only with guys who could dance.

Someone should let Graciela Gonzalez know about this. Also the amazing dancers she helped blossom for decades now...

Are you "Chris Uk" that was very vocal in Tango-L but who's dance speaks for itself? please tell me you're not.

spectator

01-27-2010, 03:35 AM

Are you "Chris Uk" that was very vocal in Tango-L but who's dance speaks for itself? please tell me you're not.

yes he is.

i did warn people.

chrisjj

01-27-2010, 04:59 AM

Someone should let Graciela Gonzalez know about this.What makes you think she doesn't know?

chrisjj

01-27-2010, 05:23 AM

OK, let's say they wore normal shoes. They're still walking backwards. That's not natural, surely?The ability to walk backwards is natural, yes. That's how come almost everyone can do it, without instruction. The fact that one doesn't get much practice or application outside dancing doesn't change that. In the dancing embrace it soon becomes as easy as walking forwards. With a sufficiently good leader a new girl that's comfortable with the embrace typically needs only a few dances to become comfortable walking backwards. For a girl that's not receiving and/or not comfortable with a good embrace, it is a different story.

Dave Bailey

01-27-2010, 06:44 AM

The ability to walk backwards is natural, yes. That's how come almost everyone can do it, without instruction. .
Well, surely every physical activity is "natural" by that yardstick? So why bother training anyone on anything?

Those Olympic athletes with specialised coaches? Wasting their money, all of them. Running and jumping is natural, after all.

bordertangoman

01-27-2010, 06:49 AM

The ability to walk backwards is natural, yes.

:lol: and so is pigs flying! its just a case of them practicing it enough!

and to quote: To be natural is such a very difficult pose to keep up.

~Oscar Wilde

chanchan

01-27-2010, 07:27 AM

Those Olympic athletes with specialised coaches? Wasting their money, all of them. Running and jumping is natural, after all.
Yes, I suppose they are wasting their money, if they are not interested in competitions.

chrisjj

01-27-2010, 07:28 AM

> Well, surely every physical activity is "natural" by that yardstick?

It's a theory...

> So why bother training anyone on anything?
> Those Olympic athletes with specialised coaches?

... which you just disproved.

fascination

01-27-2010, 07:34 AM

No-one needs to guess.

The comment you replied to was about the guys with "just two years of dance experience". For avoidance of doubt, I was referring to Gustavo Naviera and Fabian Salas.

You then mention Cambridge. Again for avoidance of doubt, I was referring to "the dance school in my home city Cambridge (UK)".

Actually we cannot tell who is reading... or even who is writing in the case of people like yourself who are hiding behind pseudonyms. I have a feeling the motivation behind your comments would be a lot clearer if we actually knew who you were.
for the record...we have a policy here of not criticizing particular individual's teaching or character b/c they may not have access to this forum and likely do not know they are being questioned/maligned and therefore have no opportunity to speak to it...henceforth...it is IMPERATIVE that you leave off particular identifiers when referring to a specific instructor...you can talk specifics via pm...but doing otherwise in the public is gossip whether true or not, in that even if true, it is unverafiable b/c the person is not here...it won't be tolerated...and further incidedents will involve infractions...questions on this policy will also not be made in the forum without involving infractions...questions may go to the staff mailbox...

chrisjj

01-27-2010, 07:54 AM

for the record...we have a policy here of not criticizing particular individual's teaching [...] b/c they may not have access to this forum and likely do not know they are being questioned/maligned and therefore have no opportunity to speak to it...henceforth...it is IMPERATIVE that you leave off particular identifiers when referring to a specific instructor...

I think you need to check the Forum rules and guidelines. They say nothing of the sort.

questions on this policy will also not be made in the forum without involving infractions...For avoidance of doubt, please note this reply does not contain a question.

dchester

01-27-2010, 08:04 AM

For some strange reason, this book came to mind.

http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/image/Staples/s0276661_sc7?$sku$

Subliminal

01-27-2010, 08:28 AM

What makes you think she doesn't know?

Yes, I'm sure the founder of the first Woman's Technique class doesn't believe that followers need instruction.

Gssh

01-27-2010, 09:46 AM

sorry - did not have my morning coffee yet

bafonso

01-27-2010, 10:40 AM

yes he is.

i did warn people.

I see. Everything makes sense now :-)

bafonso

01-27-2010, 10:41 AM

What makes you think she doesn't know?

Have a great day Chris Uk.

fascination

01-27-2010, 11:14 AM

I think you need to check the Forum rules and guidelines. They say nothing of the sort.

For avoidance of doubt, please note this reply does not contain a question.
we have a policy on gossip and inflammatory statements...the guidelines are my job to interprete and enforce as I see fit in good conscience and consistency...I have earned the privilege of doing so and exercise the best possible judgement within my capacity...other members have also found your behavior to be inconsistent with our policies... as for commentary...or questioning it... regarding moderation, as you may notice (since you have read them) guidelines are clear that we aren't going to discuss moderation in the public forum...further nitpicking of my moderation will lead to a vacation

Dave Bailey

01-27-2010, 01:29 PM

for the record...we have a policy here of not criticizing particular individual's teaching or character b/c they may not have access to this forum and likely do not know they are being questioned/maligned and therefore have no opportunity to speak to it...
Makes sense. Most forums have similar "No criticisms of individuals" rules. It's just common sense really.

However...
.questions on this policy will also not be made in the forum without involving infractions...
(Hopefully I won't get infracted for this) Would it be possible to either edit the FAQ to add this policy in, or post it and any other guidelines as a sticky?

After all, some of us (me included) have occasional failures of common sense.

Dave Bailey

01-27-2010, 01:33 PM

we aren't going to discuss moderation in the public forum...
I completely sympathise - I was a mod on a similar forum for a few years. If you get back seat public criticisms of decisions, you can never do your job.

On a less serious note:
we have a policy on gossip
i.e. we need more of it :D

:lol: and so is pigs flying! its just a case of them practicing it enough!
They're not flying, they're falling with style.

Zoopsia59

01-27-2010, 02:35 PM

They're not flying, they're falling with style.

They throw themselves at the ground and miss.

Peaches

01-27-2010, 02:37 PM

Larinda McRaven

01-27-2010, 02:38 PM

Makes sense. Most forums have similar "No criticisms of individuals" rules. It's just common sense really.

However...

(Hopefully I won't get infracted for this) Would it be possible to either edit the FAQ to add this policy in, or post it and any other guidelines as a sticky?

After all, some of us (me included) have occasional failures of common sense.

Somewhere in the guidelines is states that discussions of moderating policies IS welcome... it just doesn't belong in the AT threads or the Ballroom threads... It belongs in the Private Messages to Staff, where discussions can be held without derailing current discussions.

Perhaps we could make that more apparent somewhere. If you would like to raise this issue, of making the guidelines more visible, in the Staff Mailbox we can expound on it! But if the debate gets drawn out here it will simply be lost for future reference.

And yes, continually bickering in public (especially with a mod) results in infractions. Please take it outside of the dance threads....

BOT or at least something about pigs....

Zoopsia59

01-27-2010, 02:48 PM

BOT or at least something about pigs....

I think the pigs were saying something about how much they love the moderators here...

Or maybe they had a question about Tango... I forget...

:rocker:

Subliminal

01-27-2010, 02:58 PM

Well, etiquette dictates that the men are supposed to catch them. So, really, it doesn't involve any practicing at all! The men have to learn to catch them...for the pigs...er, followers...er, pigs...it's perfectly natural and there's nothing they need to work on.

You forgot one thing! Any attempt to teach the piggies will forever taint their ability to take flight. It is the duty of every pig to remain pure and chaste of mind until called upon. If they start to (heaven forbid) think or show initiative, who knows what could happen.

Zoopsia59

01-27-2010, 03:00 PM

You forgot one thing! Any attempt to teach the piggies will forever taint their ability to take flight. It is the duty of every pig to remain pure and chaste of mind until called upon. If they start to (heaven forbid) think or show initiative, who knows what could happen.

They might turn into Cows!

Zoopsia59

01-27-2010, 03:01 PM

They might turn into Cows!

Hmmmm... topic, topic,,, where was the topic....

Subliminal

01-27-2010, 03:01 PM

They might turn into Cows!

Nuevo Cows!! D:

fascination

01-27-2010, 03:26 PM

fascination

01-27-2010, 03:28 PM

and now...back to your regularly scheduled topic...

JohnEm

01-27-2010, 03:46 PM

for the record...we have a policy here of not criticizing particular individual's teaching or character b/c they may not have access to this forum and likely do not know they are being questioned/maligned and therefore have no opportunity to speak to it...henceforth...it is IMPERATIVE that you leave off particular identifiers when referring to a specific instructor...you can talk specifics via pm...but doing otherwise in the public is gossip whether true or not, in that even if true, it is unverafiable b/c the person is not here...it won't be tolerated...and further incidedents will involve infractions...questions on this policy will also not be made in the forum without involving infractions...questions may go to the staff mailbox...

Fascination, I'm mystified here.

You seem to be implying that no-one can discuss the openly stated opinions of a teacher or teachers? This is the AT section and there are as many opinions as there are people on here. I think it's perfectly reasonable to mention and constructively discuss such outspoken and influential people in the world of Tango.

In this case Chrisjj/ChisUK has been very restrained compared to his posts elsewhere in other forums. I even have some sympathy for his opinion even if they are somewhat impractical. Perhaps we should have a thread about how Tango could be better taught in the modern age bearing in mind that today is not set in Buenos Aires in the first half of the 20th century.

Also it seems to me to a bit disingenuous to publicly rebuke a poster and then follow that up by stating that moderation issues should not be discussed openly in a thread. Maybe your rebuke would have been better in private? It would be more consistent.

AndaBien

01-27-2010, 03:53 PM

Thank you, moderators. You show real class.

AndaBien

01-27-2010, 05:41 PM

Thank you, moderators. You show real class.

Dang, I hope it wasn't me that caused that outage.

Ampster

01-27-2010, 05:53 PM

Dang, I hope it wasn't me that caused that outage.

No, I don't think so... Outages normally happen when flamethrowers are firing all at once. :bouncy:

So, uh.... What was the topic of this thread again?

Ampster

01-27-2010, 05:56 PM

<snippet>... has been very restrained compared to his posts elsewhere in other forums.

Which is just the point. This is not any other forum (like TangoL, etc.). We try to keep it peaceful and as respectful as possible. It is after all, our home.

btw, Welcome to DF! :D

chrisjj

01-27-2010, 06:28 PM

guidelines are clear that we aren't going to discuss moderation in the public forum...Well, thank you for the exception you have generously made in this case.

chrisjj

01-27-2010, 07:04 PM

Yes, I'm sure the founder of the first Woman's Technique class doesn't believe [....]You're saying Graciela Gonzalez was the founder of the first Woman's Technique class? Wow. When and where was that, then?

chrisjj

01-27-2010, 07:06 PM

I even have some sympathy for his opinion even if they are somewhat impractical.I'd like to hear what of my opinion you think is impractical.

fascination

01-27-2010, 07:08 PM

I will say one last thing on this and then I sincerely hope this thread can resume it's subject matter...as that is the only reason we don't debate moderation in the public forum....b/c it destroys the threads on which the issue takes place....my only reason for any public intervention was that it was brought to the staff's attention by an AT member (via the staff mailbox)and as I perused the thread I noticed an ongoing debate over what could and couldn't be said and merely sought to provide clarity, thus there was no intent to issue an infraction...I then stated a reminder that further questions regarding that should go to the mailbox, precisely so that this wouldn't happen...as you all know, most of the mod staff leaves the moderation of AT to the AT mods whenever possible....but a public answer to the debate(see my initial post WRT which debate) was provided for clarity...not as an intent to rankle or invite the dissection of the vagueries of our guidelines(that can be done via the mailbox where the flow on the thread will not be distorted)...staff is aware of the inherant pitfalls of both overly vague as well as overly specific guidelines...either way they are subject to the judgement at hand...I appreciate everyone's feedback and ask again that this thread resume it's topic lest more moderation that no one wants has to ensue...thanks

fascination

01-27-2010, 07:09 PM

I'd like to hear what of my opinion you think is impractical.
excellent... let's get back to points of view pertaining to dance

Mario7

01-27-2010, 07:12 PM

Fascination, I'm mystified here.
You seem to be implying that no-one can discuss the openly stated opinions of a teacher or teachers? This is the AT section and there are as many opinions as there are people on here. I think it's perfectly reasonable to mention and constructively discuss such outspoken and influential people in the world of Tango.
In this case Chrisjj/ChisUK has been very restrained compared to his posts elsewhere in other forums. I even have some sympathy for his opinion even if they are somewhat impractical. Perhaps we should have a thread about how Tango could be better taught in the modern age bearing in mind that today is not set in Buenos Aires in the first half of the 20th century.
Also it seems to me to a bit disingenuous to publicly rebuke a poster and then follow that up by stating that moderation issues should not be discussed openly in a thread. Maybe your rebuke would have been better in private? It would be more consistent.

I agree with the above post as they are my own thoughts also, and I am thankfull that someone could word it so well.
Perhaps, I'm warped but I always found Chris's posts on Tango-L very informed, thought provoking and frank. In my opinion, we should definately keep this guy around. The kind of polemic that he brings is fertile ground for something novel, both from him and other contributers to this forum.
Let's just relax, it'll work out:bkick: