Bad Bad Professionals - Shame on You! [Archive]

EnchantedElla

01-20-2010, 10:57 AM

I was recently researching professional dancers in a city that I visit often so that I can continue my dancing while there for extended periods as I sometimes have to be. I was shocked to see bios for two professionals at their own studio, that not only exaggerated the extent of their competitive experience but was all out right lies. So much as that, the female professional is claiming to have been a Blackpool Professional Rising Star Semi-finalist, when this has never been the case. The male of the "partnership" further claims to be a US Rhythm Champion, which also is not very close to the truth.

My regular teachers have both been Blackpool Professional Rising Star Finalists and I feel that it is so offensive for other professionals to behave in this manner, as it completely diminishes all of the efforts made by dancers who actually do reach these impressive heights in competitive dancing.

What's even more shocking is that these two professionals' achievements are not so bad. They should just be honest instead of pretending that they are something that they're not. Plus, there's not many high-level competitors in (city in question), so I doubt that it matters very much to their clients, as the quality of their teaching should probably be the emphasis.

Don't even get me started on who their "visiting" coaches are - as I know about 4 or 5 on the list and these visiting coaches have never heard of these two "professionals" nor ever been to or invited to their studio.

Okay... rant over. Anyone else have similar problems?

etp777

01-20-2010, 11:52 AM

Heh, professionals at my studios konw better than that, since I can quote off their wins/placements as well or better than they can. :)

Definitely disappointing though, both for dishonesty, and just a bit of shame it seems. Sounds like they're not really happy with their own accomplishments, which according to you, are pretty good in themselves. That's the worst part to my mind. Not business wise, but in feeling bad for them. You are who you are, be proud of it, and don't pretend to be someone else.

Larinda McRaven

01-20-2010, 12:03 PM

CANI

01-20-2010, 12:24 PM

You say they lie, they say they tell the truth.... How are we supposed to know which one is correct? If you can compare their page with the alleged lies... against the competition results that DON'T show their names... then you would have proof. UNtil then what have you got?

I'd just like to add from my non-dancing experiences, even with a link to the site and a link to the comp results, we have a question, IMO -- best to ask the people/confirm before publicly stating something. (I seem to remember a funny story on DF of an am, dancing pro-am, was listed on some official site as a pro, so it was reflecting the pro had broken off his pro-pro partnership, when it was all very clearly pro-am. In this situation it was rectified, if I recall, within a day -- the point being, mistakes can happen on both sides.) There are so many possibilities here of innocent explanations and as someone who has had to investigate a lot of situations through the course of my job, what appears to be on the surface, is not always the case once it is really reviewed and the facts are clear. And I always feel for the people when, months/years later I still hear "Well, don't you remember they..." when I know that wasn't the truth in the end.

fascination

01-20-2010, 12:25 PM

I have taken the liberty of editing the specific city as I don't think we need to inadvertantly identify anyone...

I want to also simply state that while I too have seen folks who enhance their credentials...I want to make certain that we are not pointing a finger in an identifiable direction when parties concerned are not able to speak for themselves....while that practice is unfortunate, like you, smart consumers will be able to verify those claims....welcome to DF and congratulations on having such good instructors in your regular dance life...good luck also finding something comparable where you are visiting

dlgodud

01-20-2010, 12:45 PM

I'd just like to add from my non-dancing experiences, even with a link to the site and a link to the comp results, we have a question, IMO -- best to ask the people/confirm before publicly stating something. (I seem to remember a funny story on DF of an am, dancing pro-am, was listed on some official site as a pro, so it was reflecting the pro had broken off his pro-pro partnership, when it was all very clearly pro-am. In this situation it was rectified, if I recall, within a day -- the point being, mistakes can happen on both sides.) There are so many possibilities here of innocent explanations and as someone who has had to investigate a lot of situations through the course of my job, what appears to be on the surface, is not always the case once it is really reviewed and the facts are clear. And I always feel for the people when, months/years later I still hear "Well, don't you remember they..." when I know that wasn't the truth in the end.

I think the same way as CANI. It is unfair to state someone is a liar before the full research is done.
Also, as the ballroom world is another society and you would never know that what you hear or what you see is 100% correct. There will be always people who try to cheat and lie.

EnchantedElla

01-20-2010, 12:51 PM

I want to also simply state that while I too have seen folks who enhance their credentials...I want to make certain that we are not pointing a finger in an identifiable direction when parties concerned are not able to speak for themselves....while that practice is unfortunate, like you, smart consumers will be able to verify those claims....welcome to DF and congratulations on having such good instructors in your regular dance life...good luck also finding something comparable where you are visiting

thanks! i'm usually a danceforums spectator but felt i should see how usual this practice was of professionals exaggerating their "claims to fame" and if it even matters to us, students. i think i'll just rent studio space at available studios to practice while i'm there for the moment. it's just so boring sometimes!

tanya_the_dancer

01-20-2010, 12:51 PM

That's called "inflatable resumes". People do it in all professions. Careful wording can turn a minor project into a highlight of your career and help you land the position you want.

For an example in dancing, over 15 years ago, we were in Vienna (Austria, not US) and went to a dinner/dance there which had a group class on something before it. I don't even remember what dance it was. So if I were to write my dance resume for some reason, could I state that I studied dancing in Europe, too?

fascination

01-20-2010, 12:57 PM

thanks! i'm usually a danceforums spectator but felt i should see how usual this practice was of professionals exaggerating their "claims to fame" and if it even matters to us, students. i think i'll just rent studio space at available studios to practice while i'm there for the moment. it's just so boring sometimes!
glad you have you on and sharing...maybe rental space is best if pickings are thin and you have trust issues with your best choice...I do think we all have some tendencies to use verbiage that casts ourselves in our best light...ie... dedicated site moderator with over 40 K posts...vs...person with great capacity for procrastination and not much else going on in her life :)

samina

01-20-2010, 12:59 PM

( In this situation it was rectified, if I recall, within a day -- the point being, mistakes can happen on both sides.)

heh, yes... within a couple hours.

one thing else to keep in mind is that titles can be phrased in a way that are technically true, tho they may leave out certain factual bits that reveal the highly narrow scope they truly refer to.

for example, it could be said that i hold the title for North American Dancesport Open Standard Champion for 2008. if i were ever to put that on a website, tho, people in this community woulod start keeling over with laughter at the ludicrousness of it... it's a pro-am title at a weenie event where only 3 couples competed.

i take those posted titles with multiple grains of salt. as with all things... buyer beware. but who can blame a pro for wanting to squeeze whatever they've got however they can to get an edge? meh... it's marketing.

fascination

01-20-2010, 01:04 PM

right..same here...lolz

EnchantedElla

01-20-2010, 01:08 PM

Would it be offensive to the professionals in question if I asked them directly when they won these titles?

It's one thing to add some flair to an accomplishment that you've had, but I think it's just wrong to state that you've been in the final of the largest competition in the world. It's a major accomplishment that not many dancers get to experience. :(

It's so nice to be able to compare dance-experiences on this forum. Lots of good advice.

fascination

01-20-2010, 01:11 PM

no...I would ask...and they will probably be happy to elaborate which will probably clear the whole thing up

01-20-2010, 01:11 PM

Surely nobody minds being asked, from time to time, to relate a brief story about a great personal achievement: "What was that like?"

EnchantedElla

01-20-2010, 01:16 PM

Surely nobody minds being asked, from time to time, to relate a brief story about a great personal achievement: "What was that like?"
great way to look at it and to frame a questions without sounding "mad" :)

fascination

01-20-2010, 01:18 PM

one should never put on the mantle of self-righteousness unless one is prepared to have it knocked off by the sword of humility...

AMeader

01-20-2010, 02:52 PM

one should never put on the mantle of self-righteousness unless one is prepared to have it knocked off by the sword of humility...

Excellent!

syncopationator

01-20-2010, 04:01 PM

wooh

01-20-2010, 04:08 PM

I was looking at studios to visit when I'm visiting my family in a different state. I remember reading a pro couple's bio and it saying they're "undefeated in competition." And I giggled a bit thinking about how a studio posted their pro-am results and all the first through third places at a comp where I'm pretty sure most of the pro-am entries only had at most 1-3 couples in each heat. I've told my friends that have competed pro-am in 2 couple heats, don't say you came in last, you came in second. And then I thought again about the "undefeated in competition" and decided that my husband and I could start claiming that we're "undefeated in competition" since well, we've absolutely never been defeated in a competition.
Bios have to be taken with a grain of salt. It's like at my job where we're all having to fill out these long ridiculous self-evaluations before our managers fill out our evals to decide if we're getting 2% or nothing for a raise this year. I keep telling people that this is your chance to write what you've done well, let them come up with the reasons to not give you a raise. There's always someone to say what you do wrong, it's up to us to talk about what we do right.
Putting a rosy spin on the truth isn't lying. It's just seeing the glass as half full.

wonderwoman

01-20-2010, 06:01 PM

Good word of mouth and maybe youtube evidence is enough for me :)

wonderwoman

01-20-2010, 06:07 PM

I often see random instructors pad their resumes by stating they trained with or were trained by world champions, when in fact all they did was attend a workshop or take a couple of private lessons. This is not a flat out lie so I suppose is ok to do, but it is very deceiving.
My resume is vague, and can be interpretted differently by the reader. I have experience in xyz. I didn't say how much or whether this was good experience or not, just that I have experience in these areas.
I had spent a few months of my clinicals at a medical center that is well known and respected and it doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot but its on there.. just because.. it might make me look good.

dlgodud

01-20-2010, 06:13 PM

I often see random instructors pad their resumes by stating they trained with or were trained by world champions, when in fact all they did was attend a workshop or take a couple of private lessons. This is not a flat out lie so I suppose is ok to do, but it is very deceiving.

Kinda of true. Those teachers are very,very expensive and if you are not making really good money or were born with a silver spoon, well don't know how you could afford to take lessons from them at regular basis.

Warren J. Dew

01-20-2010, 06:19 PM

Note that while many people use "Blackpool" as shorthand for the "British Open Championships", that is not the only dance competition held in Blackpool.

wonderwoman

01-20-2010, 06:32 PM

Note that while many people use "Blackpool" as shorthand for the "British Open Championships", that is not the only dance competition held in Blackpool.
Ew that's some shady behavior....

dlgodud

01-20-2010, 06:37 PM

Note that while many people use "Blackpool" as shorthand for the "British Open Championships", that is not the only dance competition held in Blackpool.

Yes, that is true, but using Blackpool I think can mislead a lot of people if the competition is not actually the "British Open". Well, the person could say I did not mean it is "British Open" and it is the name of location I competed in. That's very tricky, isn't it? Of course, the person does not need to prove anything. Blackpool may not be possibly trademarked by a competition organization. So whoever decide to use it to garnish his/her resume, here we go. Someone will be confused.

wonderwoman

01-20-2010, 06:43 PM

And they know its misleading. If anyone who reads their bio sees the word Blackpool, its either going to mean nothing or its going to automatically mean THAT competition. I don't even know where Blackpool is. I had never heard of it before I knew of that comp, like within the past six months. So that's what its going to mean if I hear Blackpool in the context of ballroom.

wooh

01-20-2010, 07:06 PM

The people that would care if it's British Open or something else would know enough to investigate further.

dlgodud

01-20-2010, 07:15 PM

That might be true, but it seems whatever method they use to trick people seems working. Otherwise why the people try to play with words. Some people might not have capability to do investigation.

wonderwoman

01-20-2010, 07:22 PM

The people that would care if it's British Open or something else would know enough to investigate further.
Actually, as for me, before I read all this, I probably wouldn't have given much thought to seeing that on a bio. I wouldn't have thought oh I better check on that.

But then like I said, recomendations from people I respect and Google search on the individual. Never even read a bio on mine.

dlgodud

01-20-2010, 07:26 PM

Some people who know what is Blackpool competition is and take lessons from coaches who won Blackpool pay more to those coaches.

wooh

01-20-2010, 07:37 PM

Some people who know what is Blackpool competition is and take lessons from coaches who won Blackpool pay more to those coaches.

And if you're willing to pay a premium for "Blackpool" on a resume, then you need to take it upon yourself to make sure you know what that really means. It's like everything else, buyer beware.
Sincerely,
wooh (who is currently undefeated in competition, and thus charging a premium for dance lessons :))

wonderwoman

01-20-2010, 07:38 PM

Some people who know what is Blackpool competition is and take lessons from coaches who won Blackpool pay more to those coaches.
Well sure if that's what they're basing what they're willing to pay on, they should double check. But I don't think even if its true its necessarily worth the money!

Nybz

01-20-2010, 07:44 PM

Sincerely,
wooh (who is currently undefeated in competition, and thus charging a premium for dance lessons :))
Since you say it that way, I'd almost be tempted to make it down south to see you in action ;)

wooh

01-20-2010, 07:45 PM

Not only am I undefeated in competition, but I also charge more because I've studied with a number of champion dancers (well, I've seen their videos.) And I'm CPR certified, so when you pass out laughing at how badly I dance, I can revive you.

wooh

01-20-2010, 07:46 PM

Since you say it that way, I'd almost be tempted to make it down south to see you in action ;)

Well, I also must say for my qualifications, I'm one of the TOP dancers in the south. (I'm taller than most dancers, especially when I'm wearing heels.)

wonderwoman

01-20-2010, 07:47 PM

dlgodud

01-20-2010, 08:04 PM

And if you're willing to pay a premium for "Blackpool" on a resume, then you need to take it upon yourself to make sure you know what that really means. It's like everything else, buyer beware.
Sincerely,
wooh (who is currently undefeated in competition, and thus charging a premium for dance lessons :))

Heh! I will look it up of course. But, even that is the case, tricks are tricks and there is always people who could be victims of those tricks.

dlgodud

01-20-2010, 08:07 PM

Well sure if that's what they're basing what they're willing to pay on, they should double check. But I don't think even if its true its necessarily worth the money!

You cannot consider all people out there doing exactly the same thing you will do.

fascination

01-20-2010, 08:12 PM

I think we need to revive the "if I were a Queen" thread for wooh since she is clearly thoroughly enjoying her delusions of grandeur and I am enjoying it vicariously

wonderwoman

01-20-2010, 08:32 PM

:confused:You cannot consider all people out there doing exactly the same thing you will do.
holy crap, no definitely not.. never thought that at all.

dlgodud

01-20-2010, 08:34 PM

Exactly, I am just presenting the case that people will not or have no ability of doing double check or research.

dbk

01-20-2010, 09:30 PM

Personally, I don't look at a pro's bio when deciding whether to take lessons with them... I look at their students. Just my two cents :)

samina

01-20-2010, 09:32 PM

Personally, I don't look at a pro's bio when deciding whether to take lessons with them... I look at their students. Just my two cents :)

bingo. (tho must admit, with my own instructor, that did not factor into the equation.)

latingal

01-20-2010, 09:52 PM

hey, I want to be queen for a day....

samina

01-20-2010, 10:02 PM

you're already a queen, LG... livin' large. (tho tiny you may be...) :)

etp777

01-20-2010, 10:08 PM

<- that says you're already a crowned royal LG, and have been for a while. SO guess you got your wish. :)

fascination

01-20-2010, 10:12 PM

I looked at both...both times

EnchantedElla

01-21-2010, 05:09 PM

yes.. it's just too bad that there's not some sort of consumer reports for dance lessons. guess word of mouth recommendation is the next best option.

Larinda McRaven

01-21-2010, 07:50 PM

Last night I actually called the professionals in question. I had them come look at this post and ask if they wanted to respond. They said they really weren't going to bother. But they were able to verify their results to me, quoting the years and partners they were with at the time. Considering I have known them years and years, most of the results they quoted I actually remember, and know to be true. Some of the results were before one of them moved to the US long ago, so those I have no knowledge of, yet these are respectable dancers, teachers, and judges.

So I guess all is right with the world again.