Practicing connection

[Mengu]

There might be another thread on this but I can't find it. My partner seems to lately complain I either squeeze her or am too rigid when doing certain steps. How does one practice a more sympathetic, yet supporting and encouraging connection in standard?

[dbk]

There might be another thread on this but I can't find it. My partner seems to lately complain I either squeeze her or am too rigid when doing certain steps. How does one practice a more sympathetic, yet supporting and encouraging connection in standard?

I can't really give you specifics, because I can't see exactly what you're doing. In general, though, you need to sort of stretch or push your energy towards her, rather than trying to "hold" her in place. She needs to return that energy. If one or both of you don't, you won't feel connected and you will start doing weird things (like holding her too tightly) to figure out where she is. Make sure you are not leaning back to much, or bending forward, or pretty much everything will feel awkward for her.

If your right hand is the problem, make sure (1) she is stretching left into your hand, so you don't have to pull her forward to feel where she is, (2) you're not pulling her forward anyway, (3) you aren't moving too much with your arms and not with your back/ribcage, and (4) you don't have your hand too far to her right on her back - it should stay near her left shoulder blade.

I don't know if that helps or not - I'm certainly not a pro :D It's probably best that you take this issue to a pro, if you have the time and money for it. If you take regular lessons with a coach and s/he hasn't fixed it, think about getting a fresh perspective with someone new. You don't have to leave your coach or anything; it's perfectly natural to take lessons with other pros. I tend to take lessons with pros based on how my friends liked their lessons - if you know anyone who competes at higher levels than you, ask them for some teacher recommendations.

[Mengu]

I'll check my shoulder/hip alignment to make sure I'm centered. That's a great point. I sometimes do have a tendency to be back weighted which can be the reason for her to feel she doesn't have space.

On your 4th point about the right hand, we start dancing with my right hand in the right place, but sometimes through a dance it starts to slide to the right, and I end up having to readjust. Again not sure why that's happening either.

We do take lessons from several pros, and I've had a few of them complain about the tightness. I spent nearly two hours with Pierre Allaire yelling at me to give him more space every time he tried to do a step with me.

I know I have a problem, and I guess I'm just trying to wrap my head around some theory, or feeling I should look for when we practice, to give the right dose of freedom and flexibility in the connection (or maybe I should say frame?).

[kathyt cupcake]

We do a fair amount of drills like forward/back walks, side steps etc going up & down the room trying to maintain good connection in the body before adding upper body/arm connection/frame. This turns out to be somehow way more difficult than we expect, but it's one of those good for you types of exercises that will hopefully eventually make its way into our technique when we're actually dancing routines. I think a lot of the time funny things happen w/ connection and frame b/c there are lots of different things to think about (like your feet, moving, etc).

[Josh]

Mengu, it seems like you have already been made aware that you have the issue (which I think every guy has or has had at some point). This is the first vital step. Think about giving your arms to her, and though your elbows should be very wide, they should still feel that the energy is forward, not back. This is not easy. Also, be aware that if the lady drifts out of her space, you "holding her" in place won't help either of you, but will only cause more problems. You just worry about you, keeping the frame forward and solid. Your job is to create a space for the lady, not to hold her there. Of course, I'm sure you've heard all of this before, but it's just a friendly reminder.

One last piece of advice is to make sure that your right forearm (and hence your right hand) are rotated such that the underside of the hand (the pinky finger side) scoops up and under, giving the lady a place for her back. Holding the hand flat will tend to cause you to pull her in toward you, whereas doing it the correct way should allow you to give her support from underneath.

[Mengu]

Thank you, I'll try to keep these points in mind when we go to practice tonight (assuming I have any strength left to lift my arms after the 5th time I have to shovel the driveway this week, or maybe my arms will be too weak to squeeze her which will be a good thing).

[dbk]

I sometimes do have a tendency to be back weighted which can be the reason for her to feel she doesn't have space.

This will definitely mess with her frame, yes. Make sure your weight is correct, but also try to stretch your chest forward towards her, just like she's stretching towards you. It will feel weird, like you're not keeping your back straight; that's ok. A mistake I made for the longest time (as a follower) was letting myself collapse forward (i.e. stretching way too much and incorrectly) to force body contact and connection, because my partner never had his chest forward enough. Ask her to stretch only as much as she can without collapsing/breaking forward, and to tell you when she feels that you aren't stretching your chest forward enough. You will probably end up dancing without body contact for a while, until you get the hang of it, and that's ok.

Edit: Also, make sure you always have your weight 50/50 when taking a step. I've noticed that a lot of leaders, especially when they're taking a step backwards, will put their weight immediately onto the foot. That pulls the follower forward, and (obviously) makes you back weighted.

If you're in the Boston area, Mark Sheldon and Didi von Deck are fantastic with this sort of thing.


On your 4th point about the right hand, we start dancing with my right hand in the right place, but sometimes through a dance it starts to slide to the right, and I end up having to readjust. Again not sure why that's happening either.


Your shoulder is probably "breaking," or disconnecting from your back. You need to keep your shoulders down and connected, or your arms will start to travel like this. It takes a lot of concentration and a lot of energy to get it into muscle memory, and yes, the stretch might hurt at little. My partner has this same problem, and a recent visit to a coach got him keeping his shoulders down in the correct position... I wasn't exactly sympathetic when he complained about the stretch ("WHAT DO YOU THINK I'VE BEEN DOING FOR FOUR YEARS?!?!") *Ahem*, sorry, bit of a rant there. :P

Another thing that I find helps is moving your connection (i.e. your right hand) further left, a little bit onto her side / arm pit area, rather than flat on her back. This gives you leverage to "push" her left; with your hand flat on her back, you will have the urge to pull her forward towards you.

[Josh]

Edit: Also, make sure you always have your weight 50/50 when taking a step. I've noticed that a lot of leaders, especially when they're taking a step backwards, will put their weight immediately onto the foot. That pulls the follower forward, and (obviously) makes you back weighted.

In the context of what you have learned, I know this makes sense, but this is dangerous advice to take literally for a guy, especially when moving forward, as it may result in reaching legs without a body to accompany them. When moving backward, a strong ankle catching the weight is the key for the guy staying forward. When moving forward, splitting weight may lead to becoming backweighted, or having a more defensive posture. The body really does fall over the foot pretty quickly. If the weight is split, IMO it's closer to 80/20 than 50/50.

Another thing that I find helps is moving your connection (i.e. your right hand) further left, a little bit onto her side / arm pit area, rather than flat on her back. This gives you leverage to "push" her left; with your hand flat on her back, you will have the urge to pull her forward towards you.

As I said in a previous post, "scooping" from underneath will help to a degree the tendency to pull inward. The man does have an element of "pickup" with his right hand, but this feels more like a helpful pull, and even then it should not be much force at all--the lady is still responsible to keep herself there. So "pushing left" may again be dangerous advice if taken too literally.

[dbk]

In the context of what you have learned, I know this makes sense, but this is dangerous advice to take literally for a guy, especially when moving forward, as it may result in reaching legs without a body to accompany them. When moving backward, a strong ankle catching the weight is the key for the guy staying forward. When moving forward, splitting weight may lead to becoming backweighted, or having a more defensive posture. The body really does fall over the foot pretty quickly. If the weight is split, IMO it's closer to 80/20 than 50/50.


I mostly meant to address when the leader is going backwards, since that's where it's going to cause the problem I described. If he puts his weight immediately on his back foot, he will be pulling the follower forward. Like you said, he needs to use his ankles to avoid this.

"Reaching legs without a body" is in no way 50/50. If I reach my leg forward, that means most of my weight is still on the back leg.

I'm not sure how going 80/20 when taking a step works; perhaps we are describing two different things. This sounds like it would cause a very short and jerky stride (if you mean the 80 as the front). I've had several coaches tell me to keep my weight in between my legs as I take a forward step, precisely to avoid being back weighted.

Edit: Re-reading your post, perhaps you mean splitting your weight "backwards/forwards" when standing with your feet together, i.e. "back weighted" vs. "forward weighted"? In that case, yes, definitely err on the side of forward weighted. I meant when you are taking a step, mid-stride, you should be splitting your weight evenly between the feet. You say "splitting weight may lead..." and "if the weight is split"... when taking a step, it must be split in some manner, or you're standing on one leg. That's the sort of splitting I was talking about.

As I said in a previous post, "scooping" from underneath will help to a degree the tendency to pull inward. The man does have an element of "pickup" with his right hand, but this feels more like a helpful pull, and even then it should not be much force at all--the lady is still responsible to keep herself there. So "pushing left" may again be dangerous advice if taken too literally.

I don't know what other word to use besides "push" (which, for what it's worth, is why it's in quotes). I didn't say anything about a large amount of force, just a different direction - left, rather than inwards. "Helpful pull" describes it well, as well. It's for connection, not to put her where she needs to be. Actually, the "scooping" hand position you describe probably gives him the same connection to her side/armpit area in his wrist or lower hand.

[Mengu]

During practice today I concentrated mostly on keeping my shoulders and hips lined up, tried giving my arms more to her, and made sure my right forearm had the necessary rotation. Going forward has been considerably more "roomy".

Going back I still feel some issues, especially when we are outside partner. Few times I felt myself pulling her, which she didn't complain about, but since I was paying attention I knew it was happening. Could be because she wasn't creating enough of her own energy for the step going forward I don't know. We'll have to work on that more. Maybe in CBM, I need my arms to rotate less than my shoulders and hips and my right forearm needs to expand an extra bit away from my right shoulder. I don't think I'm tipping back from the shoulders, I do try to bend my hips and keep my blocks lined up and use the standing leg (at least I hope I do all those things). All this of course becomes more challenging when we try to dance to music.

In our Thursday lesson we'll continue to work on this with our instructor. Thanks for the discussion, it's definitely helpful to read others' thoughts.

[Miss White]

Few times I felt myself pulling her, which she didn't complain about, but since I was paying attention I knew it was happening. Could be because she wasn't creating enough of her own energy for the step going forward I don't know.

We've just taken a great private on that! And the teacher said not to pull each other, but to step back only as much as the person who is going forward is giving the energy to. So if she is not creating enough energy, you should not move much, but wait for her. You can tell her that she should move forward with more energy, but definitely not PULL her.

[Mengu]

We've just taken a great private on that! And the teacher said not to pull each other, but to step back only as much as the person who is going forward is giving the energy to. So if she is not creating enough energy, you should not move much, but wait for her. You can tell her that she should move forward with more energy, but definitely not PULL her.

Hmm, I don't know... If I don't go, and wait for her, she's not going to go anywhere. I have to initiate the when, where, what, and with how much power. I can allow my forearm to breathe while I'm doing this so as not to pull her. But I have to create the space for her to go. And once I've created that space, I don't feel like I can wait, she has to already be going. It's a difficult balance.

We've been working on natural spin turns a lot lately, and that first step back is a bear.

[Anya]

I agree with Miss White. We've been working on the same principles for some time. The person that goes forward provides the energy. As a result, you alternate the drive between partners. It is a lot less tiring and more stable. Also, we noticed that when our energies don't match, it feels really tight, too much pulling or pushing, and we don't have any freedom to move.

I like to use this exercise as a warm up: stand in front of each other and put your hands in front of you, palm to palm. Try to walk around the floor with smooth movement and constant pressure in your palms. You will notice right away if one of the partners drives too much or doesn't move enough. Once you feel comfortable with that, try to dance your routine.

This thread brought back to my mind the reasons why I don't like the terms "Lead" and "Follow". One of the definitions of the word "follow" is "to proceed without plan or reflection". I think that in competitive dancing both partners "communicate" constantly and both are evolved and contribute equally to the process. I know that it's just semantics...

[Piggles]

My teacher sometimes finds that I use too much upper body strength in an effort push myself harder (ie longer strides, greater leg swing, self balance). The end result is that I can also be a little too firm with my hands and inflexible through my back. To correct it, focuses me on how I roll through my feet, flex my ankles, and activate certain muscles in the leg when I'm in a really deep knee bend in waltz. Perhaps like me, it is your connection to the floor that is affecting your connection with your partner (?).