Teacher Personality or Ability?

[pygmalion]

I had a sobering experience today. I had reason to believe that an old friend had left his franchise studio, so I sent him an email, recommending a MUCH BETTER independent studio.

His response? Thanks for the recommendation, and I probably should check it out some day, but my wife really likes her current studio and the personality of her instructor, so they're staying put.

Eeek! They're staying put? Good friends, who've been dancing for years, and who can't dance well at all, courtesy of bad teachers? Grrr. But still, they're loyal. And the only conclusion I can draw is that, for them, it's about personality, not dancing or teaching ability.

Is that wrong? Shouldn't the teacher's ability or experience outweigh their personal appeal? which is more important to you? Why? And is it different between social and competitive dancers? Thoughts? :roll:

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and I do know what I'm talking about. Their teacher is one of my former teachers... a great person, but a pretty bad teacher, overall. :(

[Larinda McRaven]

Steve and I take Tae Kwon Do lessons in the morning. We love our dojang and our Master. I haven't got any idea how good of a teacher he is compared to any one else or the dojang compared to any other. I don't care. We like it an we are staying, regardless of if the current World Champion were to open up shop next door.

We are comfortable and get out of it exactly what we want, which may not be what my next door neighbor wants (who also is into martial arts). Why should we leave, we have friends and have built a great repoir with everyone.

The business is a franchise and runs kinda like a ballroom franchise. We know when we are getting a sales pitch. We don't care. We write the check and have fun.

[Tanzen66]

Perhaps your friends feel they are getting a value for the money and time they are commiting at this allegid, much better studio.
And furthermore .. Isn't it their choice when and more importantly where they chose to dance and take thier lessons... You made your choice now...let them make theirs...
1 more thing, .. to insult ones teacher solely based on 1 sobering experience is a little thoughtless and a tad narrowminded in this dancers humble opinion.

Tanzen66

[Sakura]

It's times like these I'm thankful for my teacher! I have the perfect mix of wonderful teaching ability and personality!

I get funny ways to visualize steps and moves, which actually work; a teacher who won't let me make up excuses for myself, but prods me to work a little harder without yelling or being mean about it; and a guy who doesn't think he's all that, and is actually quite humble! :D It's really quite amazing, and I find myself very lucky!

So, at the moment, I can't see having a teacher who's lacking in one quality or has more of the other... :? To me, it's quite scary to have to think about having one or the other! It's sorta like being asked, "Would you rather be blind or deaf?" :shock: It's really not a choice you can make!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[Larinda McRaven]

SK, if you were to get a phone call or email from a former student at your studio, who had moved on, and they insisted that they had located another teacher that was more wonderful than yours, and they felt that you were being mislead...what would you do?

You say you are happy and your teacher is great. But these are just your opinions. How easily could you be tempted to leave if someone with opinions different from yours were to try to "educate" you?

[Sakura]

SK, if you were to get a phone call or email from a former student at your studio, who had moved on, and they insisted that they had located another teacher that was more wonderful than yours, and they felt that you were being mislead...what would you do?

You say you are happy and your teacher is great. But these are just your opinions. How easily could you be tempted to leave if someone with opinions different from yours were to try to "educate" you?

That's a sobering question that you ask. If they *honestly* felt that I was being mislead, and they *really* felt that I should try a certain teacher where they were dancing at now, I might take a lesson from that place. Not only would it please the person at that studio, but it would give me a chance to experience a different coaching/teaching style. It would allow me to see what my weaknesses were in what I was learning at my studio, and may point out other flaws and things that I need to work on.

You're quite right to say that they ar my opinions; because they are. Someone else may absolutely *despise* my teacher's style; but it doesn't make it bad to me. I flourish under it. And it could be the same way with the person telling me they had a more wonderful teacher -- they flourish under their new teacher, but I might suffer under them.
I doubt, with the highest sense of sincerity I can (without having been to another studio), that I would not be leaving my Studio any time soon. But if I took a lesson at another studio that was *that* much better, then I would probably try to compromise between the two studios: taking my lessons at my current studio and taking a lesson or two at the new studio every once in a while, to check things out. If it were *really* different between the two studios, I'd probably ask for clearance here on DF, because if I brought it up between the two Studios, they'd probably say the other is wrong.

8) Way to keep me on my toes, Larinda!

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[tsb]

all i hear from is that he's making a choice that makes his wife happy - which probably makes him happy. my best friend once confided to me that when he got married he hated c/w music. but he notes that when his wife listens to it, she smiles more, it cheers her up - AND

"it makes her horny. i've decided that i like country music."

[squirrel]

I think it all depends on the person... when it comes to Salsa dancing I'd probably choose the best instructor! But only if I'm ok around him/her! 'cause if I hate the personality I cannot learn... but we don't need to be friends, you know... I learn something...


For other areas of my life, it depends...

[pygmalion]

Perhaps your friends feel they are getting a value for the money and time they are commiting at this allegid, much better studio.
And furthermore .. Isn't it their choice when and more importantly where they chose to dance and take thier lessons... You made your choice now...let them make theirs...
1 more thing, .. to insult ones teacher solely based on 1 sobering experience is a little thoughtless and a tad narrowminded in this dancers humble opinion.

Tanzen66

Hi Tanzen66. Welcome. :D

Wow! You didn't care much for the way I phrased my question, did you? Good points, since you don't know my history.

But I have studied at both studios, with both teachers in question, and I do know the resumes and relative levels of ability of both. The teacher my friends are staying with is a social dancer with less than five years' experience and only in-franchise training in American style only. And charges roughly $120/hour for lessons. The independent I referred them to has fifteen years (or more? Gotta check) experience in teaching, fairly high level competition, choreography, AND social dancing, managing a studio and training other teachers. He also does American and International styles, theater arts and C&W. And has both in-franchise and externally applied certifications -- a bunch of them. And he charges a little more than half of what the franchise charges.

I didn't make the statement that he's better lightly. Not at all. As it so happens, I LIKE both teachers very much, and I never would have referred my friends if I hadn't believed that they were no longer attending the franchise studio. I don't believe in stealing business from studio to studio.

But when I referred them, it's because I know from personal experience where the better quality teacher is. 8)

As it so happens, I think Larinda is right. My friends know what/who they like, and they're getting what they want right now. That's okay with me. 8) I just thought this might make an interesting topic of conversation. :wink:

That said, welcome again. I look forward to more conversations with you. :D

[Genesius Redux]

Hm. Interesting questions. It partly depends what the people are in it for. There are some studios that specialize in creating their own social atmosphere, so it's about taking the lessons but also participating in the full social life of the studio--and if that fulfills the people who are there, then they naturally wouldn't need to go elsewhere.

If on the other hand, they actually are getting out social dancing at other places, or maybe attending competitions, then what they're not getting might be made more clear to them. As in Larinda's example of the tae kwon do lessons--yes, from inside the dojang you don't know how what you do may compare with other places. And if you're just there to get a workout and only doing it there, then as long as you're happy with it, it doesn't really matter. But if you decide to take the tournament route (and if you don't like broken noses and stuff, I don't necessarily recommend that), it will be very clear what you're getting and what you're not. So it all depends on what you're doing and where. What Jenn's friends are getting might be fine inside the studio, but not so much outside. If they're not doing a lot of social dancing outside, that doesn't matter so much.

But again, I don't think the difference is so much a matter of competitive versus social dancing. Good dancing is good dancing, and what you do in competition is technically the same as what you do on the social floor--it's only different in degree. So I never buy the stuff I hear from people who defend bad teaching by saying, "Oh, well so-and-so is really interested in social dancing rather than competition." There's no difference. You know how to dance, or you don't. You're getting adequate instruction or you're not. And what will show that is when you step outside your studio into the larger world and dance with people who know how to dance, but who've never danced with you before.

[KevinL]

Shouldn't the teacher's ability or experience outweigh their personal appeal?

If your goal is to become an excellent dancer, and to learn quickly and efficiently than a teacher's ability and experience will be a major factor. But if you only want to have fun, and won't ever dance competetively, or with really excellent dancers, it doesn't really matter. It would be better to have a fun teacher with personality plus who makes learning (even if it isn't the best technically) to dance fun rather than a technically expert teacher whose personality you can't stand.

Of course the best choice would be to have the most technically expert teacher with a glowing and supportive perosnality, but those characterisitics don't necessarily travel together.

which is more important to you? Why?

If you make me choose one or the other, a technically expert jackass, or an inept but fun teahcer, I would have to go with the expert because of where I am in my dancing.

However, most people around here only want to be adequate social dancers and so would probably take the fun teacher. In fact that is what almost everyone here does. Most people avoid the competition teacher and take classes with the rest of us because we are more fun to have as teachers.

And is it different between social and competitive dancers?

I'll agree with Genesius Redux that good dancing is good dancing, but not everyone agrees with that statement. Sometimes "good" dancing is really "good enough" dancing. It depends on what peoples goals are, I think. Do they want to have fun, or do they want to dance well? For me, it's more fun if I dance well, but not everyone has the same level of commitment that regular Dance Forum addicts have...

Kevin

[Larinda McRaven]

There are some studios that specialize in creating their own social atmosphere, so it's about taking the lessons but also participating in the full social life of the studio--and if that fulfills the people who are there, then they naturally wouldn't need to go elsewhere.

very true, I was just pondering that this morning. When I first left my studio to become independant, some students followed me because they felt I was the best teacher available. They only stayed with me a few weeks before they returned to the former studio and a teacher with absolutely minimal and basic teaching experiene and training. They missed their friends, and the atmosphere in the new location was hardly pleasant, they felt like outsiders. It took me a while and a great deal of humble pie to understand that my expertise does not neccesarily win against a studio that is fun and cheery.

But if you decide to take the tournament route (and if you don't like broken noses and stuff, I don't necessarily recommend that), it will be very clear what you're getting and what you're not.

Yes, people will get around to finding out the differences between teachers and studios in their own time. When push comes to shove and comparisons are made the diffferences will show. But this only matters if you put yourself in situations to actually see the difference.

By the way I did bop myself in the nose pretty good this morning doing my forms all by myself, so it is a bit dangerous even without the tournament setting...

Good dancing is good dancing, and what you do in competition is technically the same as what you do on the social floor--it's only different in degree.

I love this statement

[JohnK]

One more slight twist on Jenn's original question. I wonder if the couple-in-question's motivations are about being happy with their existing teacher / relationship, or about not wanting to risk the unknowns of starting up with a new teacher's personality / expectations / etc. and risking the alienation of their current, if mediocre teacher. The devil you don't know vs the devil you do.

Sticking with a mediocre instructor might also be one partner's way of moderating the other partner's more intense interest in dance, (shades of the "dance addiction" thead) or some other relationship dynamic. Ah, the tangled webs we (potentially) weave...

[Larinda McRaven]

oooooo very good JohnK!!

Also Jenn, do you feel he is happy, or as tsb stated, he is only there because it makes his wife happy and he is willing to be the martyr...?

[marykomatsu]

What an interesting debate. As a competitive dancer you have to search out the best instruction you can find. This is really non-negiotiable. For very similar money you can get massive differences in improvement. That much said, there is little happiness in training with a teacher you dislike or who makes you feel bad or being in a characterless studio or one where you feel so much competitive pressure and you get stressed. We practice at a social studio filled with average teachers. The people there are so friendly, so fun and so interested it is just a pleasure to be there - it is like a home away from home. I would tell anyone who is just dancing for pleasure that this is a great place to dance.

I do feel the personality of the teacher, the atmosphere of the studio and the social aspects of associating with one's fellow dancers can be enough to keep a student where they are and enjoying themselves very much, even if they don't improve as fast as they possibly could. It also may keep some people dancing who otherwise would just give up altogether.

Even if you think you are doing your friends a big favor by switching them, their dancing may improve, but you cannot be sure their enjoyment of it will improve too!

[DanceAm]

Mary has a good point. Sometimes it is not about the quality of teaching. Some people have very good paying jobs that usually come with a lot of stress. Going to a dance studio to get some basic instruction and escape the days issues is what it is about.

I have a very stessful job, then I go to the Dance Studio and practice or take lessons, and then I can come out of there feeling more stressed or less stressed. This can be tough, but I like the dance stress sometimes. I like going to comps and putting my hard work to the test. My job is primarily helping people with technical issues. No matter how much work I do or how well I do it, the issues happen every day. I can fix a big problem and the next day something else breaks and the customer thinks I broke it. It is a never ending cycle of problems, and the harder I work, the more hard work I get. But dancing is a continous activity that seems to give me more back than I put into it. I love the new things I learn, I like trying to get better and I love the fact that my wife and I are doing it together.

It is hard to get the best of both worlds, the pep rally social atmosphere of a chain studio and the great instruction at a great price you can get from an independant studio. But the friendships can grow at either studio.

But I hope that the teachers at that person's studio are sincere. I feel that the teachers at my first studio were only my friends as long as was buying their packages. They don't acknowledge my existance since I left and turn the other way at the local mall rather than walk by me and say "Hi".

[pygmalion]

all i hear from is that he's making a choice that makes his wife happy - which probably makes him happy. my best friend once confided to me that when he got married he hated c/w music. but he notes that when his wife listens to it, she smiles more, it cheers her up - AND

"it makes her horny. i've decided that i like country music."

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Sakura]

But I hope that the teachers at that person's studio are sincere. I feel that the teachers at my first studio were only my friends as long as was buying their packages. They don't acknowledge my existance since I left and turn the other way at the local mall rather than walk by me and say "Hi".

:evil: :x :evil: They don't sound much like teacher's *I'd* like to have! Not even saying "hi" is just plain rude; even if you aren't dancing at their studio anymore.

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

[pygmalion]

One more slight twist on Jenn's original question. I wonder if the couple-in-question's motivations are about being happy with their existing teacher / relationship, or about not wanting to risk the unknowns of starting up with a new teacher's personality / expectations / etc. and risking the alienation of their current, if mediocre teacher. The devil you don't know vs the devil you do.

Sticking with a mediocre instructor might also be one partner's way of moderating the other partner's more intense interest in dance, (shades of the "dance addiction" thead) or some other relationship dynamic. Ah, the tangled webs we (potentially) weave...

If it wouldn't breach my friend's privacy, I'd post his email here. Yes, JohnK, you're on to something.

From what my friend said, he knows that the current teacher isn't the best, but he values his wife's enjoyment of her relationship with her current teacher. (Isn't he great? I've know him for eleven years, and he's the best man I know. His wife is a lucky woman. He's very secure, and he loves the heck out of her. :D )

He also doesn't want to "get ahead" of his wife in dance ability. He's studying the same dances as she is, and at the same rate, even though there are other dances that interest him.

Yes, there are relationship dynamics involved in the original scenario.

That said, I wasn't trying to make their current teacher sound mediocre. The truth is that he's one great social dance teacher. He can't do competitive dance, but for social dance, he's just great. With him, you have fun learning. He's the one who got me over my fear of spinning and who taught me to tap into the real me while dancing and to improv and do shines, something no teacher before or since has done. And he's a stellar human being. There's a lot more to being a good teacher than just experience and credentials. Being able to relate to people matters as well.

Compared to other teachers I've known, this guy is a mediocre dance teacher. But he has value, a lot of value, depending on what it is you want to learn.

[dancin_feet]

Of course their personality has a part to play! Who would want to pay a instructor huge amounts of money for a private lesson if they had a crappy personality?? Certainly not me. :shock:

For me dancing is a social and fun thing to do. Yes I do my medals/trophies and aim to be the best dancer that I can be, but not at the expense of the fun element. When is ceases to be fun is probably the day I will give it up, hopefully that will be never. :wink:

Fortunately I have the best of both worlds with my instructor. He is a senior instructor whose teaching and dancing style moulds almost perfectly with my own and he is a great person to be around. I have had past students of the studio tell me about independant instructors that are considerably cheaper than what I am paying at the moment, but there is no thought in my mind of leaving my instructor and the studio.

[Pacion]

For me, it is a combination of both personality and ability. Someone can have the ability but if it is in a dull/boring/lifeless/rude manner, I don't learn. Similarly, they can be the funniest, most entertaining person in the world, but if they are confusing me or I have a feeling that they showed me something that is just not feeling comfortable to carryout, I also don't learn :oops:

To paraphrase something Eddie Torres said:

These latin rhythms are filled with fire and soul. I help dancers to tap into that energy and become the best dancers they can be

If I feel that that energy is not being tapped into, I can't stick around. We often talk about the chemistry between the dancers but for me, the chemistry has to be there with the teacher otherwise, I become an infrequent attendee :oops:

I don't go to classes to be 'entertained' but I do like it when teachers can get the students to participate verbally so that you don't have this deathly silence when the teacher asks 'any questions?' or he/she makes a funny comment and no one bats an eyelid :roll:

[Tanzen66]

That said, I wasn't trying to make their current teacher sound mediocre. The truth is that he's one great social dance teacher. He can't do competitive dance, but for social dance, he's just great. With him, you have fun learning. He's the one who got me over my fear of spinning and who taught me to tap into the real me while dancing and to improv and do shines, something no teacher before or since has done. And he's a stellar human being. There's a lot more to being a good teacher than just experience and credentials. Being able to relate to people matters as well.

Compared to other teachers I've known, this guy is a mediocre dance teacher. But he has value, a lot of value, depending on what it is you want to learn.

Thank you Pygmalion.. That explains the situation much better... It sounds like your friends are haveing a great time in their dance experience as you did in the beginning of yours. You knew it was time to move on and possibly so will they someday

and now i must apoligize for my agressive post... It is not usually my way...but i felt your friends needed to be defended

Good day to all

Tanzen66

[DancePoet]

I suspect different teachers for different folks. It likely all depends on what a person wants out of there learning experience.

For me, if I had an instructor and dance studio that was all ability and no personality, it wouldn't fit my style nor what I want out of dance. The independent studio I take lessons from places an emphasis on people enjoying themselves in a community where encouragement, friendship, and dancing growth are key components of it's social experience. They create lessons and social events, along with competitive opportunities that get people feeling good about themselves and the people they interact with through what is being created. They look for feedback and shape their business around the people who participate.

I have noticed that technical skill level and teaching talents are two different components of ability. I realize my instructors are not quite as skilled as might be found elsewhere, yet their level fits the folks who are growing their skills at the studio, and at the same time the instuctors continue to take lessons themselves. However, their teaching style is wonderful. The two owners have teaching backrounds, and they seem to have a healthy knowledge of what's needed to work with their students effectively. It is fascinating to watch what develops.

It is also nice to read the views on this topic presented here.

[Kitty]

His response? Thanks for the recommendation, and I probably should check it out some day, but my wife really likes her current studio and the personality of her instructor, so they're staying put.

Eeek! They're staying put? Good friends, who've been dancing for years, and who can't dance well at all, courtesy of bad teachers? Grrr. But still, they're loyal. And the only conclusion I can draw is that, for them, it's about personality, not dancing or teaching ability.

Is that wrong? Shouldn't the teacher's ability or experience outweigh their personal appeal? which is more important to you? Why? And is it different between social and competitive dancers? Thoughts? :roll:

It is not different for competitors. My bf/partner refused to take lessons with a different teacher. He says that our current teacher knows most about us and our dancing, and knows exactly what we have to work on, that he thinks our teacher cares, and will come to competition with us and see how we do, and she teaches our team practices, so she is able to make our lessons complement our team practices. And finally, she has been teaching him for 3 years and hasn't done anything wrong, always was a good teacher and doesn't deserve to get dumped. Also, she is the closest to his house good teacher available.

While my opinion right now is that she is going to a vacation and I don't want to stop my practices, and I also think it is the time when someone else's opinion might be helpful, it would coomplement what we are learning with our regular teacher.

Actually I think that it might be that he just doesn't want to be one of those people who learned from our teacher, with the team, until they placed out of bronse or silver, and then quit team and started taking lessons with someone in the city. He feels those people don't give back to the team, only take (his idea is that higher level dancers should stay with the team and help newbies). I have to convince him that taking lessons with someone else doesn't mean stop coming to the team and stop learning from our current teacher.

[pygmalion]

Good points. Relationship dynamics figure into all of these decisions -- the relationship with a teacher, yes, but evenmore the relationship with a partner. 8)