How should a man say no?

[tangobro]

I've read various threads & web articles about the way a lady should say no to a dance request. What about the guys?

How should a man say no?

I'm not a great dancer, only 2 years of tango, but in the maybe 2 hours at a practica or 2 - 3 hours I spend at a milonga, I'd like to focus on improving or enjoying my dance.

I don't mind being asked by beginners at a practica, and I don't mind being asked by strangers at a milonga or practica(the last 4 or 5 women who asked were from out of town and we had great dances). My problem is with women that I know, and may be friendly with, but I know that dancing with them is not enjoyable. Even at a practica dancing with them seems to cause me to pick up or reinforce bad habits rather than improve.

How can I say no, and then ask another woman to dance on the same song or the same tanda?

[AndaBien]

I think you should say it honestly and gently. I know it's tough to do, but I think it's best. Do not say, "Oh, I'm sitting this one out", because that allows her to ask again later, maybe, and it's not the real reason.

In any case, once you say no, I do think it's courteous to sit out the remainder of the tanda.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

If you do not care to dance with that lady in the future, just say, as politely and gently as you can, "Sorry, no."
I do not think you should sit out the whole tanda afterward. If you do, you send an erroneous message that you just don't want to dance this tanda when in fact you do, just not with that person.

[piimapoika]

Don't try that sort of thing in Europe, and particularly not in Finland. A man just CANNOT say no to a woman's invitation: it violates the basic laws of the universe.

[BlueSkies]

I don't think you really can say no explicity, without causing some offense and putting yourself in a position to never dance with that person again. A polite but short no thanks as Lily mentioned will send a clear message but if you do that much then that will also lead to talk about how you think you're too good to dance with people. You certainly won't be friendly with these women for long.

Occasionally there are people that are physically uncomfortable to dance with, and I'd understand you would want to avoid them... one persistent lady in my area for example hasn't taken the hint that I never ask her so now asks me, resulting in a sore back after the tanda.

By far the best way to avoid being asked to dance is to be too busy. I only get asked to dance if I'm already sitting out, after all how can you be asked to dance if you're already dancing or walking determinedly over to your next partner - sometimes those "random" dances are great, other times not so great... that's just the breaks. If you don't want to be asked, then don't be available, either be already dancing, or be off the floor clearly uninterested in dancing, drinking tea (england), and not making eye contact with anyone. Then if someone you really don't want to dance with comes and asks you can easily use the "I'm taking a break" approach, because you are. Then it's back to setting your own agenda.

Lastly though I would say remember that it's a community, and remember all the better dancers that put up with you as you learn. It sounds like you already do so, but just in case, do make sure to give something back... it makes it hard for someone to gossip about you and say you think you're too good if you're blatantly helping to bring along some of the beginners. Ask them to dance at the milongas as well... I think it must be a miserable time being a beginner follower, putting up with all the really bad leads, the womanisers and sitting out forever due to the bad balance of numbers. If you make her day now then a) she'll keep learning, remember you and some day soon she'll turn out to be fabulous, and b) Don't you get a kick out of knowing you made someone's day? For me that alone can make that dance fun.

Blue

[Mladenac]

Great post BlueSkies.

I don't mind dancing with beginners if it is pleasent to dance with.
I practice basics and OE, posture, energy, more focused on music, ...

The problem is when some ladies come in some way order you to dance,
or use manipulative technique.
How to reject those, but it is obvious that you want to dance but she is not appropriate for that tanda, or you are not in the mood for dancing with her.

I had some minor itchy situations with some people.
But that came so all of sudden that you cannot react appropriately.
I try to be polite, but it seems that for some situation some rudness need to be included.

[flashdance]

I'm trying to see how long I can go without saying yes.

I'm attending the opening of my garage door.

my patent is pending.

I'm worried about my vertical hold.

I'm being deported.

I'm going down to the bakery to watch the buns rise.

I never dance on days that end in "Y."

I just picked up a book called "Glue in Many Lands" and I can't put it down.

I have to go to court for kitty littering.

I'm going through cherry cheesecake withdrawl.

[Peaches]

I don't think you really can say no explicity, without causing some offense and putting yourself in a position to never dance with that person again. A polite but short no thanks as Lily mentioned will send a clear message but if you do that much then that will also lead to talk about how you think you're too good to dance with people. You certainly won't be friendly with these women for long.

Occasionally there are people that are physically uncomfortable to dance with, and I'd understand you would want to avoid them... one persistent lady in my area for example hasn't taken the hint that I never ask her so now asks me, resulting in a sore back after the tanda.

By far the best way to avoid being asked to dance is to be too busy. I only get asked to dance if I'm already sitting out, after all how can you be asked to dance if you're already dancing or walking determinedly over to your next partner - sometimes those "random" dances are great, other times not so great... that's just the breaks. If you don't want to be asked, then don't be available, either be already dancing, or be off the floor clearly uninterested in dancing, drinking tea (england), and not making eye contact with anyone. Then if someone you really don't want to dance with comes and asks you can easily use the "I'm taking a break" approach, because you are. Then it's back to setting your own agenda.

Lastly though I would say remember that it's a community, and remember all the better dancers that put up with you as you learn. It sounds like you already do so, but just in case, do make sure to give something back... it makes it hard for someone to gossip about you and say you think you're too good if you're blatantly helping to bring along some of the beginners. Ask them to dance at the milongas as well... I think it must be a miserable time being a beginner follower, putting up with all the really bad leads, the womanisers and sitting out forever due to the bad balance of numbers. If you make her day now then a) she'll keep learning, remember you and some day soon she'll turn out to be fabulous, and b) Don't you get a kick out of knowing you made someone's day? For me that alone can make that dance fun.

BlueBRAVO!!!

But, if you simply must say no, my advice is the same as for women: "No, thank you." *smile*

[Zoopsia59]

I don't think you really can say no explicity, without causing some offense and putting yourself in a position to never dance with that person again. A polite but short no thanks as Lily mentioned will send a clear message but if you do that much then that will also lead to talk about how you think you're too good to dance with people. You certainly won't be friendly with these women for long.

Occasionally there are people that are physically uncomfortable to dance with, and I'd understand you would want to avoid them... one persistent lady in my area for example hasn't taken the hint that I never ask her so now asks me, resulting in a sore back after the tanda.

By far the best way to avoid being asked to dance is to be too busy. I only get asked to dance if I'm already sitting out, after all how can you be asked to dance if you're already dancing or walking determinedly over to your next partner - sometimes those "random" dances are great, other times not so great... that's just the breaks. If you don't want to be asked, then don't be available, either be already dancing, or be off the floor clearly uninterested in dancing, drinking tea (england), and not making eye contact with anyone. Then if someone you really don't want to dance with comes and asks you can easily use the "I'm taking a break" approach, because you are. Then it's back to setting your own agenda.

Lastly though I would say remember that it's a community, and remember all the better dancers that put up with you as you learn. It sounds like you already do so, but just in case, do make sure to give something back... it makes it hard for someone to gossip about you and say you think you're too good if you're blatantly helping to bring along some of the beginners. Ask them to dance at the milongas as well... I think it must be a miserable time being a beginner follower, putting up with all the really bad leads, the womanisers and sitting out forever due to the bad balance of numbers. If you make her day now then a) she'll keep learning, remember you and some day soon she'll turn out to be fabulous, and b) Don't you get a kick out of knowing you made someone's day? For me that alone can make that dance fun.

Blue

Blue wrote my reply so I didn't have to... so I'll just repost it since it says what I was going to say.:notworth:

[Madahlia]

I think you should say it honestly and gently. I know it's tough to do, but I think it's best. Do not say, "Oh, I'm sitting this one out", because that allows her to ask again later, maybe, and it's not the real reason.

In any case, once you say no, I do think it's courteous to sit out the remainder of the tanda.

If I get turned down, whatever the reason given, I would be unlikely to ask again, certainly in the near future. I would wait to see if the leader asked me at a more convenient time. Then I would know that the rejection was not a personal one.

If the man danced the remainder of the tanda with someone else it unkindly allows for no face-saving on the part of the asker - so, yes, it would be courteous to sit it out, even if that was inconvenient. I can envision circumstances where that would be very galling, however. It might feel like being punished for having been asked to dance by a dangerous, uncomfortable or otherwise especially uncongenial partner.


How to reject those, but it is obvious that you want to dance but she is not appropriate for that tanda, or you are not in the mood for dancing with her. That seems less difficult as it is only a conditional rejection and you could offer to catch her for a suitable tanda later.

[Mr Walker]

How should a man say no.

If i'm asked to dance by a lady i do not wish to dance with, I say no thank you. And thank you for asking me...

If i don't like the song but would like to dance with her i explain that i do not like the tanda but would like to invite her using cabeceo when a tanda is played that i like to dance to this way if she doe's not like the music i have'nt walk half way around the room to be turned down..

because of bad lighting at 1 or 2 venues there has been a time when i have had to approach a lady and invite her..And when they have declined my invitation i always say sorry to have troubled you and move on...

this makes for a happy milonga experience all round....

[dchester]

BRAVO!!!

But, if you simply must say no, my advice is the same as for women: "No, thank you." *smile*
FWIW, for me when a woman says no to my dance invitation, saying it with a smile does not help in any way, what so ever (and if anything, I find it annoying).

[AndaBien]

FWIW, for me when a woman says no to my dance invitation, saying it with a smile does not help in any way, what so ever (and if anything, I find it annoying).

When a woman says "No, thanks" to me I consider it to be forever, or until she decides to ask me. I don't feel insulted because of it - if she doesn't want to dance with me, I prefer her to say so - and I also won't make her say "No" ever again. If she's sending me a message, I've got.

OTOH, (did I get that right?) She can decline in a way that lets me know it is only for the moment, and she would like to dance with me some other time. No problem.

[dchester]

OTOH, (did I get that right?) She can decline in a way that lets me know it is only for the moment, and she would like to dance with me some other time. No problem.
Agreed, if she says something like please ask me again later (or when "whatever"), I know it's just for the moment.

[pascal]

women that I know, and may be friendly with, but I know that dancing with them is not enjoyable. Even at a practica dancing with them seems to cause me to pick up or reinforce bad habits rather than improve.



Let them know by a common friend that you don't want to dance with them.

[Peaches]

FWIW, for me when a woman says no to my dance invitation, saying it with a smile does not help in any way, what so ever (and if anything, I find it annoying).
I don't think that it necessarily helps with anything, I just mean that there is no reason to be snide or nasty when turning someone down; a smile (or just a pleasant facial expression) conveys that.

[Joe]

I understand that critiquing someone's dancing at a milonga (whilst dancing with them) is gauche, but what is the etiquette for a practica?

[Dave Bailey]

I understand that critiquing someone's dancing at a milonga (whilst dancing with them) is gauche, but what is the etiquette for a practica?
Inviting and providing critique is pretty much the entire point of a practica.

Of course, there's good and bad ways of doing this.

For example, one way I've worked out is to go with a small group of peer dancers to a (specific paractica) venue, work on some areas, give critique as required. Additionally, we take videos, upload them to our Facebook group, and we then review those videos and provide comments there also. I'd say that those video comments are the most useful part of that process.

Another thing I use is a weekly session with a practice partner, to work on something new. When it goes wrong, we then both try to analyze what went wrong and why - the trick is to do this in a non-judgemental way. I find the easiest thing to do is assume I made a mistake, then try to work it out from there.

[Joe]

Then it seems perfectly acceptable for the OP to "advise" the women at the practica (with whom dancing is a chore) regarding the issues which cause, well, issues.

[Dave Bailey]

Then it seems perfectly acceptable for the OP to "advise" the women at the practica (with whom dancing is a chore) regarding the issues which cause, well, issues.
Yes. In fact, that's better than not dancing with them, because it'll also give the OP experience in dealing with "difficult" followers.

Although, FWIW, I find that the more experienced I get, the less "difficult" followers I encounter...

[Madahlia]

Let them know by a common friend that you don't want to dance with them.

I wouldn't like that at all! It is indirect, relieving the rejecter of the need to be honest face-to-face and puts the "friend" in a very awkward position. At least with a one-on-one rejection only the two people inolved need know about it, whereas if the responsibility was shunted onto someone else there'd be the feeling that the whole local tango community was whispering about who wouldn't dance with who.

[tangobro]

Thanks all - I usually follow Blueskies approach, but I sometimes get caught during the cortina, or at the beginning of a tanda just as I'm moving within range or jockeying for position to ask someones else. Sadly the cabaceo is not in widespread use here.

As for providing feedback at practicas - since I stopped smoking & drinking my only vice is unsolicited advice, and I'm trying to cut back on that. Most of these women have been dancing longer than I, and do not seem open to input, so if I'm not asked I don't suggest ways that they should change. That's part of my problem, I feel some of them put up with & encouraged me when I was a brand new beginner and I feel bad about saying no.

From the range of reponses I guess there is no common etiquette. It's my choice to be honest, with a polite no & feel the guilt - or say yes & deal with the pain of a sore back & knees.

Salt in the wound - overheard this weekend at the snack bar of a milonga "...so I asked this guy that I don't detest too much and he turned me down - so I didn't get a chance to dance AND I felt like s**t for getting rejected."

I'm SURE the earth is going to open under that guy for breaking what piimapoika describes as the basic law of the universe.

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Why do you feel guilty saying no?

The tango etiquette for avoiding that sort of problems would be cabeceo.

If a woman (and a man, for that matter) decides to use more direct approach, she (and he) has to keep in mind that it bears a certain risk of what might be interpreted as a rejection. So if you choose to ask "Would you like to dance?" be ready
-to hear "no",
-take it as a perfectly legitimate answer, because it is
-deal with it not as a spoiled child, but as a grown up, mature individual.

If one has a hard time taking "no" for an answer, she (or he) simply should not ask, IMO.

[spectator]

just break eye contact.

oh look, another argument that mirada might actually spare people's feelings!

[borisvian13]

...Salt in the wound - overheard this weekend at the snack bar of a milonga "...so I asked this guy that I don't detest too much and he turned me down - so I didn't get a chance to dance AND I felt like s**t for getting rejected."

I'm SURE the earth is going to open under that guy for breaking what piimapoika describes as the basic law of the universe.

Who knows, perhaps that was me... I rejected an invitation this weekend and now I feel horribly exposed:)

[Dave Bailey]

As for providing feedback at practicas - since I stopped smoking & drinking my only vice is unsolicited advice, and I'm trying to cut back on that. Most of these women have been dancing longer than I, and do not seem open to input, so if I'm not asked I don't suggest ways that they should change.
Then why are they (and you) going to practicas? :confused:

A practica without feedback or structure is just a sloppy milonga...

[tangobro]

Why do you feel guilty saying no?

The tango etiquette for avoiding that sort of problems would be cabeceo.


I feel badly because
1- some of the women danced with and encouraged me when I was just starting.
2- some of the women I'm friendly with.
3- I hate to dissappoint a lady. I know -- it's corny. Don't kick me:bkick:

The cabeceo is not widely used here in NYC. Many people seem to be aware of it, it works sometimes but not all the time.

[tangobro]

Then why are they (and you) going to practicas? :confused:

A practica without feedback or structure is just a sloppy milonga...

I go because I WANT to get feedback, criticism, advice, practice and to improve my dance. I can't speak for the women, but several have mentioned that going to a practica during the daytime on the weekend fits their schedule better than a milonga at night.

[Dave Bailey]

I go because I WANT to get feedback, criticism, advice, practice and to improve my dance.
Which is exactly what a practica is for, I'd have thought.

I can't speak for the women, but several have mentioned that going to a practica during the daytime on the weekend fits their schedule better than a milonga at night.
Well I think they have the wrong attitude, but at least that explains why there's some prickly-ness in their attitudes.